D&D 5e Magic is an Illusion

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Had a head-cannon while reading this thread... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473912-Illusions-getting-arbitrarily-nerfed-by-DMs

There are only three types of magic in the D&D 5e universe. Yes, three.

Divination: Magic that gives you information (Augury).
Conjuration: Magic that moves you or another creature/thing (Dimensional Door) or (Raise Dead).
Illusion: Everything else, including some spells that fall into Divination, or Conjuration. All damage done by spells is actually psychic damage but can manifest in specific ways (you think you got burned and thus you got burned). Magic walls can even be illusionary, your brain is tricked into taking damage (wall of fire) or just not being able to move past the area (wall of force).

By core rules, magic damage is not the same as normal damage. Resistances and immunities make this quite clear. HP is not just "meat" but a combination of meat, endurance, luck, and whatever else. Getting hurt via HP one way is really no different from getting hurt via HP another way. Hell, you could say that you are in perfect health and still lose HP!

There are many spells that simply end when you make the save or they don't have the same potency, this is not because they are making real effects but because you have to disbelieve them in a certain way. You just need more proof than "huh, I don't think this is real".

Fireball is a spell that fills its area completely, however creatures can save for half damage. How are they dodging without leaving their space? Simple. The better they dodge the stronger their ability to disbelieve them getting hurt is. Rogues can take it a step further and evade all of the damage.

Elemental Weapon is a spell that allows you to make creatures think they are taking elemental damage, the illusion is so powerful that creatures are easier to hit (as they are focusing on your elemental weapon). Because the creature thinks it is taking a specific type of damage, say fire, their mind plays a trick on them and they think they are more hurt than they really are.

The Gust cantrip is also an illusion. There isn't any wind pushing you back, your mind is just being tricked into thinking there is.

Most magic is an illusion within the 5e D&D world which is why magic does and doesn't work within itself. Fireball fills its area but you can dodge because it isn't really there.

Perhaps Mystra and the spell plague isn't as they seem? Though this head cannon can be said about all editions of D&D.

A majority of magic has always been an illusion :)

[Dalebert]

Not following. Half damage from fireball just makes sense as you achieved partial cover, like curling up and covering your face and other sensitive parts so only your back gets burned.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Not following. Half damage from fireball just makes sense as you achieved partial cover, like curling up and covering your face and other sensitive parts so only your back gets burned.

That makes less sense, you can't count as partial cover for yourself, that is just adding new rules to the game that would cause issues else where. I mean, why can't I count as partial cover when someone shoots an arrow at me?

Damage doesn't specify between vital areas or not, with regards to damage there is no such thing as a vital area unless you are a rogue using Sneak Attack.

[HeyBJ]

How would the Bear Totem Barbarian's non-psychic damage resistance factor in?

Also, what about using spells like Gust to affect objects?

[Foxhound438]

Fireball is a spell that fills its area completely, however creatures can save for half damage. How are they dodging without leaving their space? Simple. The better they dodge the stronger their ability to disbelieve them getting hurt is. Rogues can take it a step further and evade all of the damage.


if that were true everything would be wisdom saves. in the fiction of d&d you can use magic to create actual fire and such, if it were all illusion then every spell would be phantsmal force.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

How would the Bear Totem Barbarian's damage resistance to anything non-psychic factor in?

Also, what about using spells like Gust to affect objects?

Barbarians think their mind is weak and thus their mind is weak. Their rage doesn't close all avenues that can damage them.

When use on objects Gust and other such spells work as conjuration. They summon an object from one place to another.

Edited


if that were true everything would be wisdom saves. in the fiction of d&d you can use magic to create actual fire and such, if it were all illusion then every spell would be phantsmal force.

Not at all.

You make the Dex save and that helps you disbelieve the illusion, because you are that awesome. However since you know you can't really dodge it you will take damage, rogues have such confidence in their dodging (due to the evasion ability) that they can't believe they will never take full damage and can even take no damage.

[CantigThimble]

I've got an even crazier theory. Everything is an illusion, even the divination and conjuration, and the non-magical stuff is illusion too. You're not really a fighter or monk, you just THINK you are. You're actually some random guy sitting at a table rolling dice and scribbling notes. Terrifying and disturbing I know, but it's the truth!

[comk59]

So... when a building is magically set on fire, it's teleporting tiny bits of it at a time?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So... when a building is magically set on fire, it's teleporting tiny bits of it at a time?

To the plane of fire.

Hell, you could say that mundane fire is just a portal to the plane of fire and it is eating away at the component (whatever was set on fire).***


Edited

*** I'm not, but you could.

Mundane fire and magical fire is different after all. Or it could not be different. Fireball does fire damage but acts like a liquid.

[HeyBJ]

Barbarians think their mind is weak and thus their mind is weak. Their rage doesn't close all avenues that can damage them.

But how are they resistant to psychically induced elemental damage, but not "pure" psychic damage? If they can be resistant to fire just by thinking they are, why can't a non-barbarian do the same (let's assume magical suggestion or something to assure their belief is absolute)?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

But how are they resistant to psychically induced elemental damage, but not "pure" psychic damage? If they can be resistant to fire just by thinking they are, why can't a non-barbarian do the same (let's assume magical suggestion or something to assure their belief is absolute)?

Because they don't think they are. Gaining the ability makes the Barbarian think they are resistant to the forms of damage while in rage, except psychic.

Its like mind over matter in the real world but its more like mind over fake tricky matter for D&D purposes.

[comk59]

So, does this mean that if you're blind and numb, you can't take any kind of magical damage? Ants-In-My-Eyes Johnson would be a god.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So, does this mean that if you're blind and numb, you can't take any kind of magical damage? Ants-In-My-Eyes Johnson would be a god.

What? No.

The illusions effect your mind and damage isn't purely "meat". You can have the spell fireball cast on you and lose HP, without you knowing anything went on. You feel the loss of HP as normal, you just wouldn't know what happened.

Edit

You can be damaged without knowing you have been damaged, even in the real world there are examples of this, so no blind/numb does nothing to really help you.

[Felvion]

Nice theory, i like it. Of course it could not possibly be "true" as every dnd world is a made up one so it's meaningless to try to sell it to people who try to find flaws in it. There is no need for philosophy, every world has its creator's truth and you can't doubt it, at least without his permission.
Could you sell it to your dm? This would make more sense. Even if you could (or if you are dming which means it can be the undoubtable truth), how possible it is that any PC is aware of that truth? This level of knowledge would (or should) be only available to high level magic weilders, or other chosen few.
Personally, i'd love to hear that an openminded dm agreed to a solipsistic homebrew with which one could possibly be immune to illusion magic just by knowing he can disbelieve anything he doesn't consider real.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Nice theory, i like it. Of course it could not possibly be "true" as every dnd world is a made up one so it's meaningless to try to sell it to people who try to find flaws in it. There is no need for philosophy, every world has its creator's truth and you can't doubt it, at least without his permission.
Could you sell it to your dm? This would make more sense. Even if you could (or if you are dming which means it can be the undoubtable truth), how possible it is that any PC is aware of that truth? This level of knowledge would (or should) be only available to high level magic weilders, or other chosen few.
Personally, i'd love to hear that an openminded dm agreed to a solipsistic homebrew with which one could possibly be immune to illusion magic just by knowing he can disbelieve anything he doesn't consider real.

The game (WotC's) has always been made with specific rules that follow the logic of magic being conjuration, divination, or illusion.

Doing this makes the game work better, all the weird little things (dodging liquid fire while standing mostly still with no cover) just start to add up without saying "because a wizard did it".

People no longer need to be lazy and rely on "Because a wizard did it" ideology/mentality.

[Foxhound438]

You make the Dex save and that helps you disbelieve the illusion, because you are that awesome. However since you know you can't really dodge it you will take damage, rogues have such confidence in their dodging (due to the evasion ability) that they can't believe they will never take full damage and can even take no damage.

that doesn't make sense. If it was an illusion, characters would be capable of discerning it. it would be a wisdom save.

[JoeJ]

So if I cast Feather Fall or Fly it's only an illusion that I'm defying gravity? Wouldn't the truth be revealed rather painfully when I hit the ground?

[Strill]

So if I cast Feather Fall or Fly it's only an illusion that I'm defying gravity? Wouldn't the truth be revealed rather painfully when I hit the ground?

No, because gravity is an illusion too.

[Tanarii]

Hahaha love it! I may run with this in a future campaign, at least for arcane magic. I'll probably elimate all illusion school spells though. It'd take some work, but it is mostly a flavor thing and not mechanical anyway, it can be adjudicated on the fly.

Btw making saves, and even HP loss itself, can be refluffed as just straight-up blocking with arcane/divine magic, for appropriate classes.

[Markoff Chainey]

The problem in the OP thread is that the kind of magic "illusions" is either very strong, arguably better than other kinds of magic, or totally useless when the DM decides so.

I do in no way see how a reduction to 3 kinds of magic brings any improvement to the problem with illusions. The thing that I do perceive is that it is against the rules of the game world, as many others already pointed out.

One example: If an illusion is capable of creating a sound within a designated area that is hearable from every creature within that area, it either is a "real" soundwave or interacts with the mind of every sentient being and that would require that the caster knows about the existence of all sentient beings in that area.

Another example: A fireball could not damage any non-sentient being and nothing could be set afire by "magical" fire.

A game is a model of reality with the aim of creating fun for the participants.

A model needs an aim, otherwise it will strive to perfectly rebuild whatever it is supposed to model, leaving it useless, as it would share the same attributes.

While a model by definition is not perfect, it needs to be good enough to reflect the reality it models so that it fulfills its aim.

The "kinds of magic" model the magic within the model of the game. The aim is to simulate some kind of magical energy that can be harnessed and is roughly on the same powerlevel of what other participants of the game can do.

What would help is not a change of the "kinds of magic", but adding a definition what "illusions" are actually made of and what general attributes that stuff has.

The problem is two-fold and you have to solve the "laws of physics" within the game world and its mechanics and second the "laws of believe".

As I do not just want to rant about your proposed idea, I want to provide a possible solution/clarification to the two that is as close as I am capable of explaining the rules as the are written.

The laws of physics ask for a clarification how tough the stuff of an illusion actually is - how persistent against physical or magical intrusion it is. This is a big part of the problem of a "wall made out of mithril around the target". - And it needs further clarification what happens when a lvl 14 illusionist makes that stuff "real".

IMO a good reference point is to think of an illusion as a reflection created from the casters mind out of a different plane. So it is almost indestructable by physical means because it is very subtle, even more than eg. smoke and you would need something of the same "subtleness" in order to affect it (like a ghost?). It gets it magical persistance from the caster who brings it either into the material plane or projects them directly into the mind of a target. - This is clarified in the spells description, most illusions create a "real" effect, though, otherwise it would not be possible that any creature in an designated area could hear an illusionary sound, without the caster knowing of the existance of all creatures in the area beforehand.

The same is true for damage caused by a magical effect. - When you say its all "in the head", then the savings throw would be different and no spell could set fire to a non-sentient being for example. There are some spells who work like you propose (phantasmal killer) and as you see, they are worded very different from eg. fireball. If you do not want to create your own magical system and your own spells, you better stick to that.

Seeing an illusion that way also clarifies the question wether it casts a shadow or not. - Of course not. If it is that subtle, that only light particles itself are more subtle, the shadow would be so too, so that it could not be perceived.

The problem in questions that needs solving stems from the Wizard: Illusionists lvl 14 ability. - As an Illusionist is by definition not a Conjurer, (and as it would mechanically be broken) it does not make any sense that she would be able to conjure the element of choice, but "harden" the former subtle substance of illusion, so that it becomes less subtle in the material plane. This substance could take any form and look, but its integrity is always the same - like wax, no matter if it is wax sculpted as a feather or wax sculpted as a sheet of metal..

As this integrity stems from the ability of the caster, I would make its persistance in the material world dependent on the casters ability.

No matter how tough something really is, the question is if it is being tested and that is a matter of believe. If I do believe in an illusion of fire, I will not touch it. IMO, it is important to work with a passive perception value in order to spot "weird" looking things and a passive perception value for some magic users or anybody with knowledge arcana, so that they have a chance to spot an illusion right away without the need to spend an action on investigating it. Without an interaction with an illusion and no possible clue that it could be an illusion (because no knowledge of arcane) or when something suddenly appears out of nowhere, I would say that there is no way that an illusion is seen as that.

The checks for investigation or arcana are there if somebody has not a high enough passive perception to perceive the true nature of an illusion right away, but either interacted with it or has reason for doubt.

Your idea to deal with illusions is surely workable, but would require a different magical system and different spells, while there are other solutions that are far less invasive by just clarifying some interactions.

[Zalabim]

I mainly wanted to point out that being struck by a new head-cannon would not be a pleasant experience. Nor would firing a head-cannon, if it's not carefully designed.

As to covering yourself to reduce damage from a fireball, that's probably the explanation. Same as the difference between rolling a 1 or an 8 on a 1d8+5. Some hits are better than others. Sometimes you hit a really vital area, and get to roll 2d8+5 (and get a 2).

If you go for the three schools of magic, just remember that anything that can effect objects has to be conjuration instead of illusion.

[Pyon]

People no longer need to be lazy and rely on "Because a wizard did it" ideology/mentality.

Well people don't always rely on it because it's a lazy way of doing things. An "everything is fake" reality sounds boring and awful to me. I'd rather have plot holes and flukes and keep my cooky magical world. However different strokes for different folks. You run your world your way.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've got an even crazier theory. Everything is an illusion, even the divination and conjuration, and the non-magical stuff is illusion too. You're not really a fighter or monk, you just THINK you are. You're actually some random guy sitting at a table rolling dice and scribbling notes. Terrifying and disturbing I know, but it's the truth!
End thread.

For the OP: suggest you refer to the types of damage listed in the PHB and Basic Rules.
Suggest you then look at the schools of magic (8 of them) listed in the PHB. That "kinds of magic" structure has been in the game since 1e. It works well enough. To try and shoehorn conjuration and evocation into illusion is a waste of your time. No value added.
The Weave is a mechanic, more or less, in 5e. Says so in the book.

[Douche]

In other pointless theories, every childrens cartoon you can think of, the characters are all DEAD. There's really no evidence to back that up. It's really just a cartoon about kids doing kid stuff... But wouldn't it be crazy if they were all DEAD?!? Like in Rugrats, they're all aborted fetuses and their parents are all hallucinating that they have kids but it's really the manifestation of their guilt cuz they're all DEAD. Totally insignificant cuz it makes no sense and doesn't really change anything, but wouldn't it be crazy though?!?

[JohnDoe]

With certain spells, yes, you could fluff it that way.

Other spells directly interact with the objective physical world, igniting objects, shaping the physical world, etc.

I've been able to meet people in Neuro who have very scary hallucinations. One would hallucinate sidewalks as being filled with fire, and it caused them to experience very real pain. Another experienced the air being pink jello, feeling slimy everywhere they went. Blood coming from faucets (thick, sticky showers). Dreams bleed into their waking hours, burning bodies seeping through walls, very hot, horrible smelling, etc.

There's so much, and it's unbelievably scary that such hallucinations exist. Most of us will experience auditory hallucinations, like thinking we've heard a text tone when we haven't. Other hallucinations are so pervasive and vivid that it's truly terrifying to think about or see objectively.

So, my experience has influenced my perspective as a DM, particularly with certain magical effects. I've had players try to argue that they 'know' an illusion isn't real... But that's not exactly how I imagine them working.

___________

You could also just say the players never really existed, they're all imaginary, dreamed up in a pseudo-matrix style game from creatures in another realm.

That would be pretty accurate.

[SwordChuck]

End thread.

For the OP: suggest you refer to the types of damage listed in the PHB and Basic Rules.
Suggest you then look at the schools of magic (8 of them) listed in the PHB. That "kinds of magic" structure has been in the game since 1e. It works well enough. To try and shoehorn conjuration and evocation into illusion is a waste of your time. No value added.
The Weave is a mechanic, more or less, in 5e. Says so in the book.

Then all magic has been illusion, conjuration, or divination magic since 1e?

Also the OP is talking about WotC D&D, their game may be based off the old stuff but it isn't the old stuff. With regards to decisions made by WotC 2e and before doesn't really matter at all.

Things change, people need to get over it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Then all magic has been illusion, conjuration, or divination magic since 1e?
No, there were more kinds than that in the 1e PHB. Take a look in the 1e book, which is the first place in D&D that each spell was assigned to a school or style or kind of magic. (At about the time 1e was coming out, Chivalry and Sorcery had bee delving into the whole "schools and kinds of" magic in great detail. )

For example, on p. 46 &47 the spells included schools/kinds of spell as:

Enchantment/Charm
Alternation
Invocation
Necromatic
Abjuration
Divination
Evocation
Summoning

And this was just Cleric spells.

A change was in a later edition classify Divine Magic differently from Arcane Magic, but the "kinds of spell" chassis was retained. Why? It makes sense, and also makes the "Detect Magic" spell, and possibly inertia.

As to time and change, it appears that you are wrong completely, since 5e sustains the trend that has been with the game since 1e, through 2e, and into 3.x. various spells fit into a particular style or school or kind of magic, which survived the corporate change intact.

If you don't like that, fine, play another game with a different kind of magic system.

It really isn't that hard, nor is it that complicated. What the OP is suggesting needlessly complicates a rational and fairly simple system.

No value Added.

[SwordChuck]

No, there were more kinds than that in the 1e PHB. Take a look in the 1e book, which is the first place in D&D that each spell was assigned to a school or style or kind of magic. (At about the time 1e was coming out, Chivalry and Sorcery had bee delving into the whole "schools and kinds of" magic in great detail. )

For example, on p. 46 &47 the spells included schools/kinds of spell as:

Enchantment/Charm
Alternation
Invocation
Necromatic
Abjuration
Divination
Evocation
Summoning

And this was just Cleric spells.

A change was in a later edition classify Divine Magic differently from Arcane Magic, but the "kinds of spell" chassis was retained. Why? It makes sense, and also makes the "Detect Magic" spell, and possibly inertia.

As to time and change, it appears that you are wrong completely, since 5e sustains the trend that has been with the game since 1e, through 2e, and into 3.x. various spells fit into a particular style or school or kind of magic, which survived the corporate change intact.

If you don't like that, fine, play another game with a different kind of magic system.

It really isn't that hard, nor is it that complicated. What the OP is suggesting needlessly complicates a rational and fairly simple system.

No value Added.

Anything that makes 5e look or feel like pre-3e can be linked to 3e.

The idea that 5e takes after pre-WotC D&D is an illusion. Yeah WotC D&D is linked to pre-WotC D&D but in the same way a science fiction book about space pirates is linked to Tresure Island.

Pre-3e isn't D&D anymore. The games have not aged well and they would not sell in today's market because people expect better, working, results.

WotC D&D just doesn't include 2e or before.

[KorvinStarmast]

Off topic stuff
Schools of magic have remained.

It is called "organization by function" in the rest of life.
Keeping it isn't a bad idea, and as I refer to the OP, trying to make something that it is not is a waste of time.

On one thing we do agree: 5e doesn't feel like 1e, nor OD&D, but it feels more like them in terms of KISS than 3.5 and its clunk. 40 years of game evolution have added some pretty good ideas.

5e is still young, and is at risk of adding a lot of crapola to it, as we can see in some of the UA offerings.

As to Evocation spells being an Illusion: non starter from the word go.
Read the description of two frequently used spells. (Ref pages 90 and 95 of basic rules)

Fireball
3rd-level evocation
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried.

Lightning Bolt
3rd-level evocation
The lightning ignites flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried. really sets things on fire, (in game world context) not creating the illusion of something on fire.

[HeyBJ]

Because they don't think they are. Gaining the ability makes the Barbarian think they are resistant to the forms of damage while in rage, except psychic.

Its like mind over matter in the real world but its more like mind over fake tricky matter for D&D purposes.

You ignored the important part of the question. If Barbarians can be resistant by thinking they are, why can't someone else do the same? If you gave someone a cloak, told them it protects them from fire, and they believe you, would they be immune to fire magic?

[Dalebert]

I need mind-altering substances for this thread. It lost me halfway down the first page. Have fun!

[mrumsey]

WotC D&D just doesn't include 2e or before.

Unfortunately, yes it does. Wizards are a throw-back from pre-3e.

In the before-time, every class had a different XP progression. This was a balancing factor. Then WoTC came in with hippy-ideals and desires for 'equality.' They took the silly amount of XP it took to get a wizard rolling (6th level, I think 8-9th levels for fighter and rogue), and put it on par with all other classes. This revolutionary idea made spells like fireball (which would not have been normally available when a fighter was level 6), and threw them into the mix much earlier in the game.

Unfortunately, this has never been caught or remedied, nor has the power of 3rd+ level spells been altered. Imagine a game where a fighter was balanced on a wizard who was almost always 1-3 levels under him. Extend this past 20 if you want. If makes the comparison, while not equal, much more fair. HP, Saves, and Class Abilities would be more advanced - making them more durable in comparison with the reality-changers the wizards are throwing around.

I'm done. This has bothered me since 3e and always will, but I deal with it because....well because that's what one does. Endeavor to persevere.

** DISCLAIMER: All of this is in a jovial tone - no argumentativeness exists**

[Desamir]

Actually, there's only one type of magic in the D&D 5e universe. Transmutation.


All damage done by spells is done by changing one thing into another (air particles into a fireball, for example).
Conjuration magic is transforming air or aether into creatures, and vice versa (for teleportation).
Illusion magic is subtly changing brain chemicals to induce hallucinations.
A gust of wind is created by changing still air into moving air.

[KorvinStarmast]

Actually, there's only one type of magic in the D&D 5e universe. Transmutation.


All damage done by spells is done by changing one thing into another (air particles into a fireball, for example).
Conjuration magic is transforming air or aether into creatures, and vice versa (for teleportation).
Illusion magic is subtly changing brain chemicals to induce hallucinations.
A gust of wind is created by changing still air into moving air.
Well played. *golf clap*

(As my brother is playing a 5e Wizard, Transmutation school, I suspect he'd just peer over his pince nez and say "Uh, isn't it obvious?" ) :smallbiggrin:

[Battlebooze]

I've got an even crazier theory. Everything is an illusion, even the divination and conjuration, and the non-magical stuff is illusion too. You're not really a fighter or monk, you just THINK you are. You're actually some random guy sitting at a table rolling dice and scribbling notes. Terrifying and disturbing I know, but it's the truth!


What? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo

Damn you for ruining my gaming experience!

:P

[Zalabim]

Unfortunately, yes it does. Wizards are a throw-back from pre-3e.

In the before-time, every class had a different XP progression. This was a balancing factor. Then WoTC came in with hippy-ideals and desires for 'equality.' They took the silly amount of XP it took to get a wizard rolling (6th level, I think 8-9th levels for fighter and rogue), and put it on par with all other classes. This revolutionary idea made spells like fireball (which would not have been normally available when a fighter was level 6), and threw them into the mix much earlier in the game.

Unfortunately, this has never been caught or remedied, nor has the power of 3rd+ level spells been altered. Imagine a game where a fighter was balanced on a wizard who was almost always 1-3 levels under him. Extend this past 20 if you want. If makes the comparison, while not equal, much more fair. HP, Saves, and Class Abilities would be more advanced - making them more durable in comparison with the reality-changers the wizards are throwing around.

I'm done. This has bothered me since 3e and always will, but I deal with it because....well because that's what one does. Endeavor to persevere.

** DISCLAIMER: All of this is in a jovial tone - no argumentativeness exists**

For the sake of completeness, on the classic asynchronous XP tables, a fighter wasn't more than one level ahead of a wizard and from 7-11 the wizard is actually a level ahead of the fighter.

Fighter progressed at 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, 32k, 64k, 125k, 250k, 500k, 750k etc. Wizard progressed at 2.5k, 5k, 10k, 22.5k, 40k, 60k, 90k, 135k, 250k, 375k, 750k, 1125k etc. So the fighter reached level 2 500 XP ahead, level 3 1000 XP ahead, level 4 2000 XP ahead, level 5 6500 XP ahead, and level 6 8000 XP ahead, but level 7 4000 XP behind. Once they've both capped their Hit Dice and the wizard starts casting level 7 spells, the fighter is leveling in only 2/3 the XP per level.

[KorvinStarmast]

For the sake of completeness, on the classic asynchronous XP tables, a fighter wasn't more than one level ahead of a wizard and from 7-11 the wizard is actually a level ahead of the fighter.

Fighter progressed at 2k, 4k, 8k, 16k, 32k, 64k, 125k, 250k, 500k, 750k etc. Wizard progressed at 2.5k, 5k, 10k, 22.5k, 40k, 60k, 90k, 135k, 250k, 375k, 750k, 1125k etc. So the fighter reached level 2 500 XP ahead, level 3 1000 XP ahead, level 4 2000 XP ahead, level 5 6500 XP ahead, and level 6 8000 XP ahead, but level 7 4000 XP behind. Once they've both capped their Hit Dice and the wizard starts casting level 7 spells, the fighter is leveling in only 2/3 the XP per level.
And the Cleric owned both of them in terms of level progression until the break between 7 and 8. Level 8 was "name level" (Patriarch) which meant that a Cleric got to set up a tithe/income earning areas earlier in the campaign than either of the other two.