Belkar dies to save the world

[mouser9169]

I think this decision marks the start of the downward spiral for Hel's plans. Up until now, Durkula has been acting on things he has control over - either directly, Durkon's body and his own thralls, or indirectly, Roy via manipulation. Now he has handed over an important piece of the plan to somebody random.

What if the High Priestess of Hel decides to actively work against Hel's plans (since unlike any of the other High Priests, she isn't one by belief and devotion)? I'm thinking of what we know:

1) A high priest cannot remove themself from the chamber or allow themself to be removed (the latter may be a bit speculative, but I think the rules we've been presented with cover that).

2) A high priest may abdicate and appoint another to take the position.

What does that leave us with?

What if the High Priest dies?

No one can attack the High Priestess while she is the High Priestess, but we've seen there is nothing stopping one bodyguard from attacking another bodyguard of the same cleric. Belkar is on his way back to the chamber and should be arriving Soon(tm). Roy has had his epiphany, so Belkar won't have the awesome argument he's looking forward to.

Belkar, in his final (for living anyway, but that's another discussion) moment of atonement allows Roy to 'kill' him. When he is at -8 hp and falling, the High Priestess of Hel abdicates and appoints Belkar her successor. Belkar passes from this world, leaving no High Priest of Hel alive in the chamber to cast a vote. This moment will be even more poignant and poetic if Mr. Scruffy dies as well... Perhaps Belkar will sense that and allow it to push him toward the decision.

Such an act could even push Belkar into the 'Neutral' planes of existance for the afterlife, though I think he'll be happy as long as Mr. Scruffy can come and visit, paralleling another character who underwent an alignment shift over time.

I'm not right on many predictions here, but I've got a good feeling on this one, though part of me does hope the Belkster and Mr. Scruffy have many more adventures together. Maybe they will, just not on that plane of existence (cue: Snarl-world speculation).

Edit: Further speculation: Roy will come up with the plan on Belkar's return, Belkar will sense Mr. Scruffy's passing, and after a few rounds of "I'm Spartacus" will convince Roy to off him.

[Jasdoif]

Up until now, Durkula has been acting on things he has control over - either directly, Durkon's body and his own thralls, or indirectly, Roy via manipulation. Now he has handed over an important piece of the plan to somebody random.Somebody random who hasn't been released from thralldom, I'm rather certain.

[mouser9169]

Somebody random who hasn't been released from thralldom, I'm rather certain.

Ok, obvious oversight on my part, but releasing someone from thralldom is probably child's play for Loki the God of Tricksters or some other High Priest. The rules are probably appropriately vague for a situation that may have never been even thought of before.

That honestly seems a minor issue compared to everything else going on.

[Jasdoif]

Ok, obvious oversight on my part, but releasing someone from thralldom is probably child's play for Loki the God of Tricksters or some other High Priest. The rules are probably appropriately vague for a situation that may have never been even thought of before.

That honestly seems a minor issue compared to everything else going on.Hm. So you're positing an ability we haven't seen, to be used by someone who might be held liable for interfering with the high priestess of another deity, to release a vampire from thralldom...who may not even act any differently than Hel needs, exacerbated by the inability to determine if her behavior is even different since none of the deities or high priests have met her before.

I think you're a little bit past "minor issue" territory, there.

[Peelee]

Hm. So you're positing an ability we haven't seen, to be used by someone who might be held liable for interfering with the high priestess of another deity, to release a vampire from thralldom...who may not even act any differently than Hel needs, exacerbated by the inability to determine if her behavior is even different since none of the deities or high priests have met her before.

I think you're a little bit past "minor issue" territory, there.

Wait a second.... an ability that has not been seen or foreshadowed, that would solve the heros' problem....

Surely there's some sort of word or phrase for this type of thing that's being proposed.

[mouser9169]

Wait a second.... an ability that has not been seen or foreshadowed, that would solve the heros' problem....

Surely there's some sort of word or phrase for this type of thing that's being proposed.


I still like my thoughts and think it may go down this way. We know *something* is going to happen - we just don't know what. Tons of things happen in stories that aren't exactly foreseen or foreshadowed. That's what makes them interesting (We never saw Roy's sword heal him before, as an example).

We do know their are many rules governing the moot, but there are also unforeseen loopholes - like a bodyguard able to attack another. Durkula, the puppetmaster of this whole affair, is leaving the scene after delivering his mustache twirling mocking speech of evil. If that doesn't reek of "James Bond Villian Syndrome" I don't know what does. If his plan is going to fall apart, or at least start to unravel, now is the time.

By itself, that doesn't make it a "The eagles are coming!" Deus Ex Machina since it doesn't solve the party's problems by itself, it just enables the chain of events to begin - the party would be very much in control of their destiny from that point on.

Everything else I wrote would fit the story and has been foreshadowed or at least built toward through character development. The only "hurdle" is giving the new HPoH the ability to make a decision independent of Durkula's wishes. We actually saw a bit of that already in the conversation between Durkula and Roy already. Without Durkula there, just how much control does he have over that army of thralls: and it is even Durkula's thrall at all? It could be the Exarch's if he was vamping off screen, even if Durkula held the staff to speed up the process once the bodies were all gathered together.

Look at it like doing a "proof" in mathematics if you've done those - sometimes you have to start at the ends and figure out how to make them meet in the middle.

[Zwiebelchen]

I think at this point it's pretty clear that the godsmoot plot will not be resolved here anyway (so any speculation about it is probably baseless), as the teleport orb has been introduced as a clear plot device to change the setting (and it fits with the oracle prediction).
This is all a pretty obvious setup for venturing into the dwarven homeland of Durkon ... and as such the likely closure for Durkon's story.

[Jasdoif]

Without Durkula there, just how much control does he have over that army of thralls: and it is even Durkula's thrall at all? It could be the Exarch's if he was vamping off screen, even if Durkula held the staff to speed up the process once the bodies were all gathered together.The rules for vampire spawn specifically state that a vampire can control enslaved spawn of their own enslaved spawn, so it would work. As it turns out that's my current theory on why HPoH is bringing the Exarch along, to keep a chain of command from being broken.


Look at it like doing a "proof" in mathematics if you've done those - sometimes you have to start at the ends and figure out how to make them meet in the middle.And if you have either end wrong, your proof is doomed to failure :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I see three big issues with your proposal. First, the entire sequence of events hinges on an ability we don't even know exists, administered by a party that may face consequences for doing so, and which may not even have the desired effect (from the in-universe perspective of whoever would be doing it).

Secondly....It's contrived. Getting this far, you call for the High Priestess of Hel to relinquish the title and bestow it upon Belkar, so Belkar dies without naming a successor, nullifying Hel's vote. Assuming that would work, how is it supposed to flow better than, say, the High Priestess of Hel intentionally not naming a successor before Roy destroys her?

Thirdly....Following from the last point, the whole thing amounts to setting up Belkar's death so he can take the fall for an NPC. That's not poignant, that's demeaning. Surely he deserves more influence over his fate; instead of being at the whims of "somebody random", as you put it, who could have chosen anyone else in the room if they happened to have been at -8 and dying instead of Belkar.


I think it's that last part that's the cornerstone here. If you can come up with something based on Belkar's propensity for taking action, you might find Belkar driving the entire thing with nothing he hasn't shown off in the past thousand strips.


I think at this point it's pretty clear that the godsmoot plot will not be resolved here anyway (so any speculation about it is probably baseless), as the teleport orb has been introduced as a clear plot device to change the setting (and it fits with the oracle prediction).
This is all a pretty obvious setup for venturing into the dwarven homeland of Durkon ... and as such the likely closure for Durkon's story.I think it's dangerous to assume the Godsmoot plot we know of is the only plot that involves the Godsmoot. Hel wants the world destroyed, I don't think she'll be picky about whether it's triggered by a vote at the Godsmoot or whether the destruction of the last Gate forces the gods' hands (and with multiple vampires she could attempt to act on both concurrently); and the Godsmoot currently has the side effect of sequestering a lot of high priests away from the dwarven Council and the last Gate.

[Murk]

Wait a second.... an ability that has not been seen or foreshadowed, that would solve the heros' problem....

Surely there's some sort of word or phrase for this type of thing that's being proposed.

Please, please, please do not go calling it a deus ex machina. That term is so widely abused and misused that it's saddening me. OK, in this case, for once, it would be actual Gods doing it, but until it solves all the heroes' problems instead of one, it's not applicable.

If you meant something else, sorry, don't mind me :smallredface:

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar, in his final (for living anyway, but that's another discussion) moment of atonement allows Roy to 'kill' him. When he is at -8 hp and falling, the High Priestess of Hel abdicates and appoints Belkar her successor. Belkar passes from this world, leaving no High Priest of Hel alive in the chamber to cast a vote. This moment will be even more poignant and poetic if Mr. Scruffy dies as well... Perhaps Belkar will sense that and allow it to push him toward the decision.
I see no earthly reason for the HP to do that, nor an unearthly one.
Belkar's return, if we recall the hike up the mountain, is front loaded with "payback!" as motive and method when he gets to the top of the hill. Until he and Mr Scruffy are re-united ("you and me from now on, pal") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html) his demise will not occur.

The full text from Belkar to Mr Scruffy:


"Anyway, it's you and me from now on, pal. We're in this together, to the top of the heap or bust, until the very, very end."

[Peelee]

Please, please, please do not go calling it a deus ex machina. That term is so widely abused and misused that it's saddening me. OK, in this case, for once, it would be actual Gods doing it, but until it solves all the heroes' problems instead of one, it's not applicable.

If you meant something else, sorry, don't mind me :smallredface:

Yeah, i was joking. I mean, you even said it yourself - an actual God solving a problem out of nowhere. Too good to pass up. No worries, though

Mind you, i still think the whole odea is a bit ridiculous for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which being that Belkar has no reason to want to atone.

[ORione]

The church of Hel is a frontarchy, not a predecessor-appoints-archy. If the HPoH dies, wouldn't it just go to whoever's in the front?

[unbeliever536]

(since unlike any of the other High Priests, she isn't one by belief and devotion)?

Everything the Giant has said about vampire clerics has indicated that they choose their gods when they come into existence. Malack chose to worship Nergal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page11&p=17334948#post17334948) and the High Priests (old and new) chose Hel.

[Kish]

I am skeptical that the former High Priest of Hel turned any of his thralls loose. If he hasn't, then his faith is real and uncoerced, but the new High Priest of Hel is just a puppet who moves and votes as he directs.

[KorvinStarmast]

... but the new High Priest of Hel is just a puppet who moves and votes as he directs. Wait a minute, how did Banjo get folded into this problem? :smallbiggrin:

[Havelocke]

Belkar kicks in a window, sunlight dusts all the vampires, no chain of succession anymore, story moves to dwarven lands to stop durkula and world is saved until team evil gets to the next gate...