Ravenloft, fey courts and mirror plane(t)s

[Millstone85]

The DMG describes how a feature of the Shadowfell is "domains of dread" such as the one where Castle Ravenloft can be found. It also gives a look into the politics of the Feywild, naming a few notable archfey.

But let's say a character walks out of Castle Ravenloft, somehow manages to escape the domain itself, finds a shadow crossing and reaches the Material Plane.

Or a character take their leave from one of these archfey, finds a fey crossing and reaches the Material Plane.

Toto, I've a feeling we're back in Kansas. But on what planet was that again?
The way I understand it, each world of the Material Plane has its own reflection in the Shadowfell and in the Feywild.

My guess is that walking from Ravenloft you would end up on Oerth, while Titania and her sister quarrel near Toril.

Do you think I got that right?

[M Placeholder]

The DMG describes how a feature of the Shadowfell is "domains of dread" such as the one where Castle Ravenloft can be found. It also gives a look into the politics of the Feywild, naming a few notable archfey.

But let's say a character walks out of Castle Ravenloft, somehow manages to escape the domain itself, finds a shadow crossing and reaches the Material Plane.

Or a character take their leave from one of these archfey, finds a fey crossing and reaches the Material Plane.

Toto, I've a feeling we're back in Kansas. But on what planet was that again?
The way I understand it, each world of the Material Plane has its own reflection in the Shadowfell and in the Feywild.

My guess is that walking from Ravenloft you would end up on Oerth, while Titania and her sister quarrel near Toril.

Do you think I got that right?

In the same book, it describes how Barovia is in a demiplane under the sway of its Vampire Lord. Ravenloft (Or the Land of Mists, as its known to its inhabitants) is a pocket dimension, and in the 2nd and 3.5 settings, was in the ethereal plane. Its rulers were the Dark Powers, and you could not leave the demiplane unless they decided you could. If you walked into the mists that surrounded the plane, you would just end up somewhere else on the demiplane, in either the Core (where the most important domains were, such as Darkon, Barovia and Falkovnia) or in one of the Islands - areas that were surrounded by mists.

Basically, if the Dark Powers release you, you might end up on the original planet the domain was taken from, or you were taken from. The Dark Powers capture evildoers and random people from other worlds, and either dump them in a certain domain, or give them their own domains if bad enough. For example - Falkovnia is the Domain (Read "Gilded Cage") of one Vlad Drakov, originally from Taladas on Krynn. Its Darklord was such a Bastard the Dark Powers gave him his own domain that is a reflection of his home on Krynn. Hazlan is the prison of a former Red Wizard, and there are domains with Darklords from Athas, Oerth, Mystara and many other prime worlds. When you are released by the Dark Powers or Escape through a portal, you will either end up on the planet you originally came from or the land the domain is a reflection of. For example, if you escaped Sithicus, you might end up on Krynn.

In addition, not every land has a reflection on the Shadowfell and Feywild. Athas (at least according to original cosmology of the setting) has The Black - a dimension that consists of dark reflections of everything that could be on Athas and separates everything that exists from everything that doesn't. The Gray is the plane of the dead that surrounds Athas and separates it from the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane. Its "thinner" towards the Ethereal, hence why there are no true gods on Athas and why the Inner Planes hold more sway.

The world of the Birthright setting has just the Shadow World - a reflection of the prime material, but in darkness and populated by shadows and undead. In that setting, halflings are refugees there.

So in short, being granted your release from Ravenloft could get you anywhere.

[Ninja_Prawn]

So in short, being granted your release from Ravenloft could get you anywhere.

I agree. If you're travelling the planes, you can visit many different material plane planets. Probably some will be 'closer' than others, but if you know where you're going, that's almost immaterial.

[Millstone85]

In the same book, it describes how Barovia is in a demiplane under the sway of its Vampire Lord. Ravenloft (Or the Land of Mists, as its known to its inhabitants) is a pocket dimension, and in the 2nd and 3.5 settings, was in the ethereal plane. Its rulers were the Dark Powers, and you could not leave the demiplane unless they decided you could. If you walked into the mists that surrounded the plane, you would just end up somewhere else on the demiplane, in either the Core (where the most important domains were, such as Darkon, Barovia and Falkovnia) or in one of the Islands - areas that were surrounded by mists.

Basically, if the Dark Powers release you, you might end up on the original planet the domain was taken from, or you were taken from. The Dark Powers capture evildoers and random people from other worlds, and either dump them in a certain domain, or give them their own domains if bad enough. For example - Falkovnia is the Domain (Read "Gilded Cage") of one Vlad Drakov, originally from Taladas on Krynn. Its Darklord was such a Bastard the Dark Powers gave him his own domain that is a reflection of his home on Krynn. Hazlan is the prison of a former Red Wizard, and there are domains with Darklords from Athas, Oerth, Mystara and many other prime worlds. When you are released by the Dark Powers or Escape through a portal, you will either end up on the planet you originally came from or the land the domain is a reflection of. For example, if you escaped Sithicus, you might end up on Krynn.It looks to me like you are suggesting to largely ignore the 4e/5e redefinition of the Dark Powers as beings of the Shadowfell and just go with the traditional Demiplane of Dread instead. And I respect your preference for an old school lore you obviously know much better than I do. However, I was hoping for an answer that would play along with the new Shadowfell approach to the Domains of Dread.


In addition, not every land has a reflection on the Shadowfell and Feywild. Athas (at least according to original cosmology of the setting) has The Black - a dimension that consists of dark reflections of everything that could be on Athas and separates everything that exists from everything that doesn't. The Gray is the plane of the dead that surrounds Athas and separates it from the Astral Plane and the Ethereal Plane. Its "thinner" towards the Ethereal, hence why there are no true gods on Athas and why the Inner Planes hold more sway.

The world of the Birthright setting has just the Shadow World - a reflection of the prime material, but in darkness and populated by shadows and undead. In that setting, halflings are refugees there.You lost me there. First you say that not every land has a Shadowfell or Feywild reflection and then you give examples of planets that are known to have a dark reflection. Am I supposed to understand that The Black is not Shadowfell-Athas and the Shadow World is not Shadowfell-Aebrynis? I would call that a waste of a good plane of darkness. Or is this about these worlds lacking the Feywild part of the equation? I remember reading in 4e that the Feywild version of Athas went even more kablooie than the prime planet, with only a few surviving fey domains now floating in a void.



So in short, being granted your release from Ravenloft could get you anywhere.I agree. If you're travelling the planes, you can visit many different material plane planets. Probably some will be 'closer' than others, but if you know where you're going, that's almost immaterial.Very true for the inner and outer planes. But again, I think it doesn't do justice to the echoes of the material plane.

[Falcon X]

As said before, many of the problems arise from edition changes. It's location is difference in 2e from 5e. I personally like to run a 5e game, but in a universe shaped like it was in 2e. It takes some thinking, but you are the DM and you can mix the two all you want, so long as it is consistent.

The way I use it: The Demiplane of Dread is a location in the plane of shadows, but it is in it's own dimension with it's own world. That is, on this planet, the Shadowfell is the one with much more interesting things happening on it than it's material counterpart.
Thus, it is in a foreign location to everything.

As others have also said, this assumes you can get out, which is classically a nigh-impossibility. The only one I know who has done it was Vecna, and he did it by ascending to Godhood (and subsequently re-arranging the universe into the 3e model before the adventurers kill his avatar. Yeah, Die Vecna Die was a fun module).
In my game, I have my players going there and back, but as a weird twist of shadow and chaos magic. They are first going through the Astral Plane, and then arriving in the Demiplane of Dread in such a way that they still have their silver chords attached. That is, their true body is still on the Prime Material plane, making it easier to get back to it.

[Millstone85]

Alright then, I suppose WotC were foolish to think they could relocate a popular setting, one I assume had whole manuals and novels written on it, with a mere few paragraphs.

What about the archfey? Queen Titania and her unseelie sister. I know those names predate D&D, so does that mean they should be expected to show up in pretty much any setting as long as the fey side of the world is involved?


The way I use it: The Demiplane of Dread is a location in the plane of shadows, but it is in it's own dimension with it's own world. That is, on this planet, the Shadowfell is the one with much more interesting things happening on it than it's material counterpart.Intriguing. Are the material and fey versions a wasteland or just relatively uninteresting?

[Ninja_Prawn]

What about the archfey? Queen Titania and her unseelie sister. I know those names predate D&D, so does that mean they should be expected to show up in pretty much any setting as long as the fey side of the world is involved?

I assume "yes" unless there's a specific reason why not. Most of the faerie courts travel across the planes and could show up in any setting, as far as I'm concerned.

[M Placeholder]

You lost me there. First you say that not every land has a Shadowfell or Feywild reflection and then you give examples of planets that are known to have a dark reflection. Am I supposed to understand that The Black is not Shadowfell-Athas and the Shadow World is not Shadowfell-Aebrynis? I would call that a waste of a good plane of darkness. Or is this about these worlds lacking the Feywild part of the equation? I remember reading in 4e that the Feywild version of Athas went even more kablooie than the prime planet, with only a few surviving fey domains now floating in a void.

In 2e, both Aebrynis and Athas had no Feywild. On Athas, there weren't even any fey creatures. Well, none that were alive anyhow. They added the fey type in 4e to a few creatures and added the Feywild, ie the lands within the winds" to the cosmology, and got rid of The Black and had just The Gray, which was like the Shadowfell.

The Black was introduced (if I remember correctly) in the Prism Pentad novels, and it was described (in the novels and DS3 (http://athas.org/products/ds3)) as a reflection of everything that could be on Athas and separated everything that existed from everything that did not, and that it lurked under everything on Athas. In it, everything is shifting and that nothing is settled (including the trees, seas and other things that could exist on Athas), and that gravity was subjective.

Its inhabitants included the servants of the bigger bad of the setting, Rajaat, who were once halflings but were now shadow giants. It also included some other strange creatures. Beyond the Black was the hollow - which contained Rajaat and nothing else.

So basically, The Black was like the Shadowfell, but was constantly shifting with reflections of what could be and home to giant shadows that were halflings (cannibal ones at that) a long time ago.

The Gray in the original setting was the land of the dead, and it was an expanse of gray that was full of negative energy and smelt of rotten flesh. It was home to a lot of undead (All unique, as per the setting) that had resisted fading away into the plane itself.

As for Aerbrynis, it had the Shadow World, and it was pretty much the same as the Shadowfell. That was where Wizards got the idea for the Shadowfell in 3rd edition. In the lore of the setting, it was only discovered after the War of Shadow and the Battle of Mount Deismaar. The halflings came from there and could at one time pass between both the worlds.

As for the Archfey, I think it depends on the setting. If there is a Feywild in your world, then there is no reason why the Seelie and the Unseelie are not there. For Toril and Oerth, they are there.

[Millstone85]

I consider my opening question "Do you think I got that right? " to have received a vibrant "No".
At least, it is not how people here would do it. Okay, that's good to know.

[gullveig]

I don't know to much about these settings, because I usually end up homebrewing too much the settings during the campaign that it is not the same setting anymore at the end of the campaign.

So my 2 cents is... You should stick with whatever you feel more comfortable.

[JackPhoenix]

As others have also said, this assumes you can get out, which is classically a nigh-impossibility. The only one I know who has done it was Vecna, and he did it by ascending to Godhood (and subsequently re-arranging the universe into the 3e model before the adventurers kill his avatar. Yeah, Die Vecna Die was a fun module).
In my game, I have my players going there and back, but as a weird twist of shadow and chaos magic. They are first going through the Astral Plane, and then arriving in the Demiplane of Dread in such a way that they still have their silver chords attached. That is, their true body is still on the Prime Material plane, making it easier to get back to it.

Lord Soth also got out of Ravenloft, by not playing the Dark Powers' game. He accepted he deserves his punishment, so he was eventually sent back where he came from.