How right/wrong was I in these descriptions?

[SangoProduction]

So, I invited my friends to play a game another set up, with class restrictions (very odd ones at that). So, here's what I said when they asked me about the classes. I'd like to know just how right/wrong you think I was. Repeat, I am a player, but there is a story-wise reason to the restrictions.


No. None of the base classes aside from the ones mentioned are available, but here's a break down so you can determine which one you'd prefer to look in to.

Warblade,Swordsage,Crusader: They are what the fighter should have been, although each a slightly different flavor. Masters of the sword (or fist), they use ancient techniques to perform incredible, and nearly magical, feats from launching themselves in to flanking position with Shadow Hand maneuvers, to lighting the ground ablaze with Desert Wind maneuvers.

Psion: Sorcerer on crack. Want to have 15 spells in 1 power that can scale from level 1 to 20? Take this.
Wilder: Wild magic Psion. Tons of power points. Not many actual powers to use them on. Deep Crystal weapons are a favorite of Wilders from what I hear.

Factotum: Did you like the Bard's versatility, but just thought "Oh my god! The bard is far too specialized!", then this class is the one for you! Class skills: All. You can change the god you worship on a moment's notice. You can become a (bad) rogue, and even cast spells that change from day to day. You can brawl (briefly) with the best of them, and then pick a lock while no one is watching.

Psionic warrior: Well, what would happen if you made fighter decent? Probably something slightly better than this, but you get cool powers, and it's not bad.

Ardent: Very strange...all about mantles and stuff. I haven't figured it out.
Divine Mind: Take the ardent, and give em some divine stuff. Also haven't figured it out.

Dread Necromancer: ....You...make...zombies. Pretty much impossible to not abuse if you use it at all because it's so powerful.

Duskblade: Armored wizard. It's actual combat is very slightly greater than the Psionic Warrior, but has less powerful spells it can use. Also, Psy Warrior gets to use heavy armor at level 1.

Warmage: This is what would happen if you took a sorcerer, knocked him out, tore off his arms and legs, and made him smoke for 50 years.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Duskblades combat floors higher than Psychic Warrior but caps much lower.
Divine Mind is terrible. It takes forever to get the second aura, decent powers, and a decent sized aura. It is a cool concept poorly executed.

[Troacctid]

Divine Mind is mostly junk. The only good ability they have is their auto-scaling Astral Construct psi-like ability from the ectopic ally variant--if you use one at a time, it ends up being less effective power points than a proper Shaper, but you get some decent nova if you combine uses to summon higher-level constructs.

Wilders don't actually have more power points than Psions. They just have fewer powers known. It's kind of sad.

Warmages are legitimately good at what they do (direct damage and crowd control), they just aren't very good at doing anything else.

Shadow Hand and Desert Wind maneuvers are Swordsage-only.

[Vaz]

Ardent; God

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Yeah, I would steer clear of Complete Psionics stuff, and stick with Expanded Psionics.

Also:
Warblades; Fighters with PHD's.
Swordsages; Chambara-style flying swordsmen with more skill points than rogues.
Crusaders; Mega-tanks that excel at spiked-chain builds

[ZamielVanWeber]

1) Unless you use the obvious typo swordsage get fewer skills than rogues and from a smaller list.
2) Ardent is a bit trickier to use but offers a number of advantages over Psion so I would not discount it. Wilder is in pretty much the same boat, although having powers known hiccup ed that badly hurts (they do have an ACF that helps a lot though).

[MisterKaws]

Both as a fellow DM(Although a newbie at that) and an optimizer, I think you're wrong to go restricting "weak" classes.

From my experience, all it takes is some hours to make almost anything "effective", you shouldn't go around judging fighters or monks as weak, in fact, the only way to make an "effective" sniper is by taking a monk dip, mind you, and the same is valid for a bullrusher and the fighter; so what happens if your players want to play those classes?

Let your players try and build something out of other classes, try to help him if he can't make an effective build out of what he wants, maybe send him to the playground for help, I'm sure there is a ton of people here willing to help with building and whatnot. If even then he doesn't manage to get what he wants, try to do it through templating, or even custom items: a while ago, one player of mine wanted to play a Lycanthrope, but his character hated being a lycanthrope and would shapeshift only when on a really bad situation, giving him a template for that would be quite unfair, so I just made an item with a 1/day Bite of the Werebear, but used the rules for items with no slot and basically turned HIM into a magic item, it costed around the 20Ks, and fit pretty well fluff-wise.

What I mean is, when your players are not having fun, it's up to YOU to help them, be it using something already existent or helping them build whatever they want. Restricting players that much won't take you anywhere, and you don't look like you're doing that for a lack of supplements or knowledge either.

[SangoProduction]

Both as a fellow DM(Although a newbie at that) and an optimizer, I think you're wrong to go restricting "weak" classes.

From my experience, all it takes is some hours to make almost anything "effective", you shouldn't go around judging fighters or monks as weak, in fact, the only way to make an "effective" sniper is by taking a monk dip, mind you, and the same is valid for a bullrusher and the fighter; so what happens if your players want to play those classes?

Let your players try and build something out of other classes, try to help him if he can't make an effective build out of what he wants, maybe send him to the playground for help, I'm sure there is a ton of people here willing to help with building and whatnot. If even then he doesn't manage to get what he wants, try to do it through templating, or even custom items: a while ago, one player of mine wanted to play a Lycanthrope, but his character hated being a lycanthrope and would shapeshift only when on a really bad situation, giving him a template for that would be quite unfair, so I just made an item with a 1/day Bite of the Werebear, but used the rules for items with no slot and basically turned HIM into a magic item, it costed around the 20Ks, and fit pretty well fluff-wise.

What I mean is, when your players are not having fun, it's up to YOU to help them, be it using something already existent or helping them build whatever they want. Restricting players that much won't take you anywhere, and you don't look like you're doing that for a lack of supplements or knowledge either.

I don't think you entirely read my post, and are really judgemental for it (and didn't even know half the story, assuming I was the one who banned them), as I said this was simply me explaining the classes available in a game I was playing. But to address some points you brought up: At best, fighter and monk are good for 2 level dips for bonus feats to qualify for certain feats/classes.

And while, as a DM, it's your job to help them have fun, well, "You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Not to mention...did you not see that almost all base classes have been banned? Even the Wizard and Sorcerer and Cleric? There's a story purpose. It was just "Oh, weak classes can't be picked haha."

[MisterKaws]

So, I invited my friends to play a game another set up,

Oh, sorry, your wording confused me, a lot.

Well, I really assumed the big ones (Wiz/Clr/Drd) were banned for being in the other side of the scale. Anyways, don't let them touch the Divine Mind or Warmage, DON'T. About Factotums, Font of Inspiration (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) is quite ridiculous, if someone is taking factotum, they should consider it.
About the class descriptions, the only mistake you've done is about Psions and Ardents, they're a lot more focused than the sorcerer. Your only real healer potential on those classes is an Ardent, so yeah, you'll have to figure it out unless you want to spam magic items for healing or something.

Though the real disturbing thing about those classes is that the best archer possible there would be a Warblade...

[Red Fel]

Okay, let's see.


Warblade,Swordsage,Crusader: They are what the fighter should have been, although each a slightly different flavor. Masters of the sword (or fist), they use ancient techniques to perform incredible, and nearly magical, feats from launching themselves in to flanking position with Shadow Hand maneuvers, to lighting the ground ablaze with Desert Wind maneuvers.

Partial credit. Warblade is what the Fighter should have been. Swordsage is what Monk and Rogue should have been - nimble combat, versatile and agile striking, unarmed prowess and sneaky abilities. Crusader is what Paladin should have been - taking blows for your allies, striking with fury, and spot-healing.


Psion: Sorcerer on crack. Want to have 15 spells in 1 power that can scale from level 1 to 20? Take this.
Wilder: Wild magic Psion. Tons of power points. Not many actual powers to use them on. Deep Crystal weapons are a favorite of Wilders from what I hear.

Reasonable, although in some ways Psion is closer to a spontaneous Wizard, and Wilder to a Sorcerer.


Factotum: Did you like the Bard's versatility, but just thought "Oh my god! The bard is far too specialized!", then this class is the one for you! Class skills: All. You can change the god you worship on a moment's notice. You can become a (bad) rogue, and even cast spells that change from day to day. You can brawl (briefly) with the best of them, and then pick a lock while no one is watching.

A bit oversimplified, but accurate.


Psionic warrior: Well, what would happen if you made fighter decent? Probably something slightly better than this, but you get cool powers, and it's not bad.

Pretty accurate.


Ardent: Very strange...all about mantles and stuff. I haven't figured it out.
Divine Mind: Take the ardent, and give em some divine stuff. Also haven't figured it out.

Others have covered Divine Mind. It stinks. Ardent is... Confusing, I'll be honest. It's basically thematic power sets. You pick a few themes and get powers within the theme.


Dread Necromancer: ....You...make...zombies. Pretty much impossible to not abuse if you use it at all because it's so powerful.

Wouldn't say "so powerful;" minionmancy is good, but Undead are pretty manageable if one of your enemies is a Cleric.


Duskblade: Armored wizard. It's actual combat is very slightly greater than the Psionic Warrior, but has less powerful spells it can use. Also, Psy Warrior gets to use heavy armor at level 1.

And Duskblade can take a Bloodstone weapon and use Maximized Vampiric Touch like a boss. That's basically the focus of the class.


Warmage: This is what would happen if you took a sorcerer, knocked him out, tore off his arms and legs, and made him smoke for 50 years.

I... can't really argue with that one.

My issue is that you've picked several bad classes (e.g. Divine Mind, Warmage), and several awesome classes (e.g. anything Tome of Battle), and put them on the same limited list. By providing a limited list, as opposed to a more open one, you've implied that these classes are somehow comparable. (Spoiler alert: Not so much. Psion will pretty much dance around all of them, for one thing.)

Also, your descriptions are fairly skewed. Your description of the ToB classes basically says, "Play one of these, they are gods." Your description of Warmage basically says, "Don't play this, it is sad and lonely." (Not technically wrong, to be fair.)

My advice, if you're going for a limited class list, is:
Exclude any classes you don't understand. That means Ardent and Divine Mind, for starters. If you're willing to limit classes, limit them to ones you can handle.
If you're giving a limited list, try to keep the classes within the same general level of power and versatility. People frequently assume, when given a short list, that there is a reason for this grouping; generally, they assume it's because the classes are similar. That's part of why people complain about the grouping in the PHB, which places three absurdly powerful classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) next to three sadly poor choices (Monk, Paladin, Rogue), with others sitting awkwardly in the middle.
Be more even-handed with your descriptions. Don't describe one class as godly and another class as crap. If it's crap, don't include it.

[SangoProduction]

Also, your descriptions are fairly skewed. Your description of the ToB classes basically says, "Play one of these, they are gods." Your description of Warmage basically says, "Don't play this, it is sad and lonely." (Not technically wrong, to be fair.)

My advice, if you're going for a limited class list, is:
Exclude any classes you don't understand. That means Ardent and Divine Mind, for starters. If you're willing to limit classes, limit them to ones you can handle.
If you're giving a limited list, try to keep the classes within the same general level of power and versatility. People frequently assume, when given a short list, that there is a reason for this grouping; generally, they assume it's because the classes are similar. That's part of why people complain about the grouping in the PHB, which places three absurdly powerful classes (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) next to three sadly poor choices (Monk, Paladin, Rogue), with others sitting awkwardly in the middle.
Be more even-handed with your descriptions. Don't describe one class as godly and another class as crap. If it's crap, don't include it.

Yay a comprehensive overview of my descriptions. Thanks. (Also thanks to everyone else who replied.)

I would have thought what you said about what I said about ToB classes would have been what others interpreted of the Psion. Wow that's confusing wording lol. And yeah, I kinda intentionally described Warmage as that, as the people I was introducing the campaign to were core-only people, essentially, and I didn't want them to sour their tastes of non-core by playing a Warmage...I also wanted to add in a little humor...perhaps morbid humor, but is there any other kind?

Also, this isn't my list of classes, this is another's, who is the GM. This was merely my set of descriptions.

[Chronos]

It's inaccurate to say that a factotum can be a bad rogue. Factotum is better at rogueing than rogue is, in addition to all of the other classes they can sort of pinch-hit for.

[SangoProduction]

It's inaccurate to say that a factotum can be a bad rogue. Factotum is better at rogueing than rogue is, in addition to all of the other classes they can sort of pinch-hit for.

I was referencing the sneak attack. but true. that does make it inaccurate

[ZamielVanWeber]

May I recommend:

Warblade: Solid combatant with some fun skills points. Great if you want to beat face and get some ability to dodge effects that would drop lesser warriors.

Swordsage: Skill heavy with a wide variety of combat options. They do run out of steam mid-combat so judicious use of their abilities is advised.

Crusader: Bulky with heals and the ability to control the battlefield, along with some options to do solid damage still.

Psion: Masters of the mind, their flexibility comes from their ability to upgrade the powers they pick. They can go all day with good power usage.

Wilder: The narrower list is balanced by a few cute class features and one awesome one: wild surge. You can upgrade those powers further than ever before with that.

Factotum: Their massive skill list, solid skill points, and variety of features make this the ultimate jack-of-all trades.

Psychic Warrior: A decent melee combatant who gets his strength from potent psychic powers. Not as easy to use as a Warblade but the end result is impressive.

Ardent: They pick up more hp, armor, and shields than a Psion. They function by picking a theme from a list and taking powers from that list. Tricky to use but very multiclass friendly.

Divine Mind: A front-liner who slowly receives powers and auras from a list. The function like an ardent, picking a theme from the same list, but receive far fewer powers in return for their auras (which can become impressive in time). A class that really takes dedication but allies love to have it around.

Dread Necromancer: You have nasty debuffs, a pile of spells that try to instantly kill, and can eventually make a lot of potent undead. You will end up being evil, but as long as you go in eyes open.

Duskblade: Arcane magic user that specializes in melee combat. They eventually get the ability to cast in medium armor and with heavy shields and can channel their damaging spells into attacks. Their lack of high level spells is balanced by their massive number of low level spells so they can deal damage all day.

Warmage: An arcane caster specializing in damaging spells. Simple and effective.

[MisterKaws]

Warmage: An arcane caster specializing in damaging spells. Simple and effective.

I think it's not a good idea to let core players use Warmage, one of us could potentially Mailman it into effectiveness, but a core player with no experience into that would probably be frustrated by having only damage spells and only being able to deal near-50s damage spells even when the unoptimized fighters are dealing 150 per round. The way you put it there can potentially make someone think it's good, it's not.

[Troacctid]

I think it's not a good idea to let core players use Warmage, one of us could potentially Mailman it into effectiveness, but a core player with no experience into that would probably be frustrated by having only damage spells and only being able to deal near-50s damage spells even when the unoptimized fighters are dealing 150 per round. The way you put it there can potentially make someone think it's good, it's not.

I've presided over two Warmages as a DM, both in mid-levels, and neither of them ever had trouble contributing to combat, even though neither was especially optimized. (One was a Blood Magus focused on fire spells, and the other was a Sentinel of Bharrai with a Cleric dip for DMM: Maximize.) They always had reliable DPS and crowd control, and never felt ineffective at their main role. The Blood Magus eventually asked to switch to a Wizard because he was bored of just blowing things up and wanted to try a more nuanced strategy.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think it's not a good idea to let core players use Warmage, one of us could potentially Mailman it into effectiveness, but a core player with no experience into that would probably be frustrated by having only damage spells and only being able to deal near-50s damage spells even when the unoptimized fighters are dealing 150 per round. The way you put it there can potentially make someone think it's good, it's not.

If you have an unoptimized fighter dealing 150 a round, I am curious what you would consider optimized.

That being said my statement is entirely accurate. It is both simple and effective. I never called it powerful. The design goal of creating an arcane caster that has damaging spells and some BFC was achieved and it is not a bad class. Are there stronger? Yes. But it is not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

[MisterKaws]

If you have an unoptimized fighter dealing 150 a round, I am curious what you would consider optimized.

That being said my statement is entirely accurate. It is both simple and effective. I never called it powerful. The design goal of creating an arcane caster that has damaging spells and some BFC was achieved and it is not a bad class. Are there stronger? Yes. But it is not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

Problem is: Psions and Ardents do all a warmage does, only 20 times better.

About fighters: the worst TWF fighter with Weapon Supremacy and NO power attack deals that damage.

[Troacctid]

Warmages have a lot more gas in their tanks than Psions and have access to different sets of spells, feats, prestige classes. I mean, yeah, Psions are better overall, but so are Wizards. Doesn't mean Warmages can't do their job.

[Andezzar]

Calling the duskblade an armored wizard is very misleading. The duskblade list features little to no utility or buff or summoning spells. The spells mostly just increase the weapon damage.

[Vaz]

About fighters: the worst TWF fighter with Weapon Supremacy and NO power attack deals that damage.

Can you prove it please? Against a CR20 appropriate opponent?

As to the Warmage, Ardents and Psions are broke good. Literally, the optimization ceiling of those two can make Wizards cry.

So saying that Warmages are bad because they aren't capable of matching the heady heights of a mailman sorcerer is like saying that Cheese on Toast is crap because its not using the most expensive ingredients. Sometimes all a cheese toasty needs is to be cheese on toast, plain and simple. Can go and add on a bit of Rainbow Servant flavoured bacon for something a little bkt different (with or without early entry tricks).

[MisterKaws]

Can you prove it please? Against a CR20 appropriate opponent?

As to the Warmage, Ardents and Psions are broke good. Literally, the optimization ceiling of those two can make Wizards cry.

So saying that Warmages are bad because they aren't capable of matching the heady heights of a mailman sorcerer is like saying that Cheese on Toast is crap because its not using the most expensive ingredients. Sometimes all a cheese toasty needs is to be cheese on toast, plain and simple. Can go and add on a bit of Rainbow Servant flavoured bacon for something a little bkt different (with or without early entry tricks).

Actually, I said the opposite, Warmages are especially effective as mailmans, not as much as Kobold Sorcerers though.

Anyway, here's the build stub:

32 point buy
STR 18 Dex 18, dump all the rest, pretty optimized.
At level 20, that goes Str 33(18+4level+5tome+6item) and Dex 19(18+1).

Exotic Wp. Pro. (Bastard Sword), for maximum optimization
Wp. Focus, Specialization, Gr. Focus, Gr. Specialization, Mastery, Supremacy
TWF, Improved, Greater, Oversized

Really dunno what to do to the rest of the feats, bastard sword TWFing is quite simple...

Equipment: L Bastard Sword of Speed and Collision +5, L Bastard Sword of Collision +5, Strongarm Bracers(I wanted monkey grip but then I remembered it doesn't work on off-hand), belt of Ogre Strength +5, Manual of Gainful Exercise +5. Wasting all your money on big chunks of metal, just the classic.

Let's use a Black Wyrm, because the others require special materials and whatnot to overcome DR, and that'd be too optimized. The attacks hit automatically just because I don't want to optimize hit chance too.

3 attacks with 2d8+5(enh)+5(collision)+5(str/2)+6(spec+mast), average 25 per hit
5 attacks with 2d8+5(enh)+5(collision)+11(str)+6(spec+mast), average 31 per hit
total damage per turn, assuming full hits: 230, against the Tarrasque it would be 110, but yeah, it does that damage to anything that doesn't have some funky DR. And it got 6 or 7 feats open for any other thing.

[Fizban]

Needlessly inflammatory, biased, and empty descriptions, not what I'd consider helpful. You have offended me sir.

Psionic powers do not duplicate 15 spells at once or even come close. I've never heard of anyone suggesting Wilders love Deep Crystal weapons, nor do they involve any Wild Magic mechanics. You haven't even said anything useful about the Psychic Warrior.

You've listed two classes which you admit you can't even figure out how to use yourself, which suggests that you don't actually care to know what your PCs can do and will simply throw stuff at them willy nilly. Then you have a class that you say is overpowered but allow anyway. (Edit: my mistake, not the DM then).

A Duskblade is not an armored wizard, not even close. A better description would be, "like the PsyWar, but with blasting magic and channeling spells through a weapon."

And finally, the Warmage. The appropriate description here would have been, "like a sorcerer with larger list of spells known they don't have to choose themselves, but focused on blasting with a little bit of battlefield control." Such a contemptuous description as you have given really has no place in anything. If it's so godawful then why are you even admitting it exists, let alone allowing it? Never mind that the class functions perfectly well at what it does, but if you can't be bothered to understand Ardent or Divine Mind I suppose it's not surprising you'd give the same treatment to other classes that are commonly mislabeled. How about, "This is what happens if you take a sorcerer, stuff his head full of all the blasting spells, and give him actual class features," if you must have something sensational?

Amusingly enough you've allowed Warmage, Dread Necro, and Duskblade, but not Beguiler. Dunno if you just forgot about it, decided it was OP, or what.

[Troacctid]

OP is a player, not the DM.

[SangoProduction]

OP is a player, not the DM.

I made it a bit more obvious in the OP. Thanks for responding for me though.

[Fizban]

Sorry, my mistake. But I remain offended I tell you!