World of Darkness anyone?

[banjo1985]

I've kind of noticed that this forum is almost entirely devoted to d&d and similar d20 systems, which is to be expected, what with the oots being based on it and all.

But what I was wondering was do any of you play other systems, or even prefer them? I play Call of Cthulhu, but my favourite system to both play in and run is the World of Darkness, to the extent that I dpn't really play or run d&d any more at all, I'll just base a fantasy campaign around the WoD system.

So does anyone play WoD? What do you think of it, and how do you rate it against D&D? I'd also be glad to hear of anyone elses experiences of trying to adapt the rules to a fantasy setting as it's something I've found a little difficult in the past, and any ideas or experiences would most likely help!

[Callix]

err... this is the d20 forum area... try here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26) if you want non-d20 games.

Sheriff: Actually, this is the "Gaming (d20 and General RPG)" section. People sometimes forget the "and General RPG" part (probably because as the OP notes, there's less of it around here.

[JellyPooga]

I have played both WoD (and a more generic setting based of WoD rules) and CoC (briefly), but I don't own (officially) either (or play either at the moment). I'm not amazingly familiar with the rules for either of them, so don't have a lot to say about them. Coc i've found to make for good horror games. WoD I enjoyed...'nuff said really, no complaints really, good solid ruleset.

A friend of mine adapted the WoD rules to a generic fantasy setting surprisingly well. If you want, I can send you the conversion stuff he did by e-mail. It's nothing spectacular, just uses the WoD ruleset with different flavour (i.e. you play mortals instead of immortals, though the rules for immortals are still there).

[banjo1985]

Oh, oops okay, it just said d20 and general rpg, so i thought it would fit here best.

Oh well off over the hills and through the valleys then *sets off at marching pace*

*edit* Well yeah that sounds interesting, I'm adapting it for a fantasy game I'm going to run soon, I'm going the whole hog, doctoring the character sheet son Photoshop to put in new skills and everything! The magic is causing a little bit of a problem though I must admit

[JellyPooga]

Umm, yeah, General RPG includes non-d20...Gaming is for, like, warhammer or computer games and stuff...

[Dhavaer]

err... this is the d20 forum area... try here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26) if you want non-d20 games.

This is d20 and General RPG. World of Darkness definately fits.

To the OP, I've read and liked the Revised edition of Mage, but I've never seen anyone start a game so I've never had a chance to play.

[Glaivemaster]

You might want to try using Mage rules as the rules for Magic in a fantasy setting, but you might not. It kind of depends on how you want to do magic.

If you're looking for a similar style of magic to D&D, then Mage isn't perfect. It doesn't have all that many spells, since the spellcasting is based mainly off of the players' own imaginations. We had trouble when we started playing Mage because we were used to the D&D style, and we kept looking in the book for spells we wanted to use. It doesn't work, trust me.

If you want to do it the way Mage intends it to be, then obviously Mage is perfect. The idea being, basically, tell your GM what you want to do with your magic, and he works it out for you, obviously based on how many dots in arcana (magic skills) etc. Since you're trying to adapt WoD to a fantasy setting, this is the better idea I suppose

[Callix]

:smallredface: :smallredface: <hangs head in shame> sorry banjo... I'm new too... :smallredface:

[banjo1985]

I've never partook in Mage myself, I've done Vampire, Werewolf and even Prometheans, but the magical side has always eluded me. Maybe that would be a good thing for me to base magic on for fantasy, though I was planning to base magic around the elements, and making casters take bashing damage to cast spells and willpower to buff them up

*edit* no problem Callix, I'll turn back from my trip across the valleys then hehe

[Dhavaer]

though I was planning to base magic around the elements, and making casters take bashing damage to cast spells and willpower to buff them up

That actually close to how Mage works, except with Spheres instead of elements. Elements are all covered by Forces or Matter.

[banjo1985]

:smallbiggrin: Ok cheers, thanks to everyone for the help, when on break from work I think I'm going to have to go pick up a copy of Mage!

[Dhavaer]

:smallbiggrin: Ok cheers, thanks to everyone for the help, when on break from work I think I'm going to have to go pick up a copy of Mage!

My edition is old, by the way, so the new book might have a different system.

[The Gilded Duke]

For Fantasy:

Play either Dark Ages Vampire oWOD
or Dark Ages Inquisitor oWOD

The first lets you play monsters in a dark world, the second one lets you play people trying to be heroes in a dark world.

For things to fight against good books to use:

-Bygone Bestiary oWOD:
I think thats the name. An old world of Darkness book that has stats for a wide variety of mythical creatuers.

-Book of Famori oWOD:
Contains information on Famori, the mutant bad guys in Werewolf the Apocolypse games. Want a human with sticky ooze skin and tentacles? Here is where to go.

-Sorcerer and Ars Magica
For the evil witches and what not to fight against
Mage also works, but can overpower other games.

-Demon The Fallen oWOD:
Set in modern times, but the powers and systems can be used to represent both regular and fallen angels, make great villians for Inquisitors to fight against.

-Changeling the Dreaming oWOD:
While Changeling is set best in modern nights, many of the rules can be used for fae and non fae monsters. Also has a great deal of magic items laid out, and a magic system second only to Mage. The changeling magic system isn't as unbalanced either.

Also, Changeling is in my mind the fantasy game.

-Predetors nWOD:
Sort of a new and improved Bygone Bestiary, the Predators book lays out a great number of supernatural enemies to fight. Intended for modern day, but just as scary in the past. Unlike the Bygone Bestiary the creatures in here are intended to be scary, and are not as faithful to the original legends that inspired them... putting a new darker twist. Also goes for more obscure legends. Fear the Azlu.

-Telepaths? nWOD:
There is a nWOD book about telepaths that from what I have heard is really good, and has amoung other things a well done system for pyrokinetics in the book, again set for modern times but can be adapted for more fantasy.

-The Book about the Tremere Headquarters oWOD:
There is a book, the name of which I have forgotten for now, which has information on the headquarters of the House Tremere during the Dark Ages. The descriptions of House Tremere work perfectly for an intrigue game, or a very dangerous very dark dungeon crawl. Has some of the most innovative and twisted Thaumaturgy ever published by White Wolf. And Gargoyles can be good sympathetic monsters, especially when they get made out of your friends.

On that note, Necromancy, Thaumaturgy, and Cruac Theban and Gilded Cage can all be easily adapted to be used with mortal characters, just give them some sort of power pool.

Also there is a book somewhere that has information on rules for infernalism. Infernalism makes for good unusual enemies... but make sure not to overdo it. Also, it isn't good in the hands of PC's.

Ive played two infernal characters, it wasn't fun.

-Gehenna oWOD

It might seem odd using a book about the end of the world for a fantasy game, but the Gehenna book contains some of the most challenging combat encounters I've ever seen written up. Although most of the combat characters are you fighting against antideluvian vampires... there is nothing preventing you from saying that the Flesh-Warping Tremor Causing Giant Worm Beast is just a Flesh-Warping Tremor Causing Giant Worm Beast.

Oh, there are also the creatures from below that man was not meant to know.

And the swarm of pre-historic amphibeous vitae fueled frenzying whale beasts controlled by an ancient evil hidden in it's belly.

Similar books, like the Werewolf end of the world book, and the catchall end of the world book might have similar epicly challenging encounters.

Quick note: oWOD means old world of Darkness and usually means out of print. nWOD means new world of darkness and generally are in print. You can still buy pdfs of oWOD books at drivethroughrpg through a link on the Whitewolf sight.

[banjo1985]

Wow thanks for teh exhaustive list! I've got the Predators book, which has helped me a little with monster creation, I'm known for homebrewed monsters, as I never like my group knowing exactly how to kill what I put in front of them just because they've read the book!

I know a shop that still sells a lot of oWoD books which I'll now go and take a look into, especially the magic based ones you've highlighted.

I should probably say that my setting is based around sky pirates in airborne ships above shattered islands floating in an air-based world, with the uncovering of a dark gods eye causing it to possess it's finder and attempt to reunite with its other pieces and destroy the world (I've always been into epic story arcs!). I've got dwarves in 1800@s style floating sky dreadnoughts and elves in delicate skimmers, and of course orcs as the rabid ambushing pirate race, they just feel perfect fro that kind of role!

[MariettaGecko]

I've played in an Old WoD LARP, but I haven't played in a new one. That said, from what I can gather, the oWoD was much better able to adapt to a larger group, whereas the nWoD is not nearly as good. Also, the oWoD was based upon a series of character classes fighting to either cause or prevent the end of the world. The nWoD is more based around a generic darkness, which I have heard is no-where near as good as the older WoD setting. That said, I've never personally played in a nWoD setting, so everything I can say about it is based upon what I've heard.

[Indon]

I can not recommend the Technocracy (Old WoD) more to a Mage player. It involves the similar-yet-antithetical Technocracy, the 'tradition' of 'mages' who rather than trying to make the world a more complex place, try to make it a safer, more stable place instead. Technocrats, like other 'mage'-types, are equally viable heroes and villains.

Mechanically, it's a masterful working of the Mage rules into a science-fiction environment. You could easily run a Star Trek campaign with it, for instance (All those things Jordie does with Tachyons? That's Enlightened Science).

[Accersitus]

In my group we play a lot of new/old WoD, and we like it better than D&D for some types of campaign, while D&D is better for other kinds. What we like about it, is how easy it is to customize the system for playing all kinds of things using the system more as guidelines to balance things than solid rules.

[Kiero]

Only WoD game I ever liked was Mage: the Ascension for two reasons. Firstly, you got to play a human, not a monster, unlike in all the other lines. Secondly, it was refreshingly free of all the "the world is ending, woe is me" crap many of the other had. I really couldn't care less if monsters were dying out, indeed helping them on their way would be good.

[Skjaldbakka]

On a related side note, I heard that Monte Cook is making a d20 World of Darkness. (IIRC, it is in fact entitled "Monte cook's World of Darkness")

Thoughts?

I can't say I am looking at this with anything but apprehension, but I am interested to see how Mage: the Awakening looks in d20. If it is any good, I may adopt that magic system to my D&D games.

[Jannex]

World of Darkess was my first roleplaying experience, and remains my favorite to this day. Most of the books I own are oWoD (I never really developed much of an affection for the new stuff). One of the great things about WoD is that it's so flexible--one of my friends once ran a far-future science fiction game with the standard WoD rules, and just made up some systems for psionics. The entire top half of the character sheet works for pretty much any setting (with a couple of minor tweaks, like changing "Drive" to "Ride," etc.), and if you're looking to make a fantasy setting, it should transfer quite well.

I'll agree with the person who said that Mage: the Ascension (NOT Awakening, which is nWoD) is a great system for fantasy magic. Unlike D&D, which forces you to use specific pre-designed spells, Mage allows you to come up with your own effects on the fly, to suit the demands of your current situation. As long as you have a sufficient level of mastery with whatever you're trying to effect (Matter for inanimate objects, Life for living systems, Forces for energy, etc.), you can do pretty much whatever you want--for a price. Making major changes to the fabric of reality causes reality to hit back, often in the form of damage or temporary flaws. And, as you said, a Mage can use Willpower to make his magic more effective. It's good stuff.

As others have suggested, the Bygone Bestiary and some of the Dark Ages supplements should be able to give you some help with developing a fantasy setting, and if you want some thoughts on developing different fantasy races, take a look at Changeling: the Dreaming. Those should be able to provide you with a pretty solid foundation to come up with whatever you want. :smallsmile:

[Closet_Skeleton]

World of Darkess was my first roleplaying experience, and remains my favorite to this day. Most of the books I own are oWoD (I never really developed much of an affection for the new stuff). One of the great things about WoD is that it's so flexible--one of my friends once ran a far-future science fiction game with the standard WoD rules, and just made up some systems for psionics. The entire top half of the character sheet works for pretty much any setting (with a couple of minor tweaks, like changing "Drive" to "Ride," etc.), and if you're looking to make a fantasy setting, it should transfer quite well.

DnD is flexible. Just instead of changing stuff you just add stuff.

I haven't actually found a non-flexible system, just systems that would slow down too much if you use them in the wrong way.


I'll agree with the person who said that Mage: the Ascension (NOT Awakening, which is nWoD) is a great system for fantasy magic. Unlike D&D, which forces you to use specific pre-designed spells, Mage allows you to come up with your own effects on the fly, to suit the demands of your current situation. As long as you have a sufficient level of mastery with whatever you're trying to effect (Matter for inanimate objects, Life for living systems, Forces for energy, etc.), you can do pretty much whatever you want--for a price. Making major changes to the fabric of reality causes reality to hit back, often in the form of damage or temporary flaws. And, as you said, a Mage can use Willpower to make his magic more effective. It's good stuff.

I actually prefer DnD magic for flavour reasons but I'm probably alone there. I like Wizards to cast 'spells' rather than be DM (or 'storyteller' if you can be bothered being differant) limited gods. Not that the DnD magic system isn't arbiteraly limited for reasons that don't entirely make sense.

Mostly I like a system where differant sources of power have distuinguisable rules rather than faked differances based on fluff.

White Wolf mainly puts me off because the settings seem to be based entirely of gimicky races but I've never managed to understand the dice mechanics used in the Storyteller systems either. I know that I don't need that many dice to determine a single outcome though. I hear Shadowrun is worse in that respect though.

[Ravyn]

Storyteller dice-rolling isn't that bad. You basically count the dots on your sheet for the Attribute-Ability combination your ST asks you to roll, figure out what effects to apply that might change them, and then you roll that many and count how many hit seven or higher. The main difficulty is just figuring out what rules they're using regarding ones and tens--that seems to be more setting-specific, and I can never keep the WoD one and ten rules straight. It's actually, in my opinion, preferable, because the odds of a critical failure (in Storyteller terms, either no ones and all successes, or iirc more ones than successes if oWoD) decrease as the skill increases, rather than staying at a constant 5%. (And varying levels of critical failure have their own advantages--watching your ST come up with a new and inventive way to describe an enemy NPC's quadruple-botch is a treat and half, let me tell you!)

[Kurobara]

I admit I haven't really read much WoD stuff in general, nor played any of it, but I do really like the feel of oWoD Changeling. I hope I end up liking the nWoD version too - judging by the previews it looks like it's going to have a pretty different feel. A lot of my friends love oWoD Mage but thing the nWoD version is just kinda silly, but I can't speak from personal experience on that.

I have played in a couple games of Exalted though (briefly ran and later switched Storytellers and played in a 1st Edition game, currently playing in a 2nd Edition one), and I'm considering running a Scion game (uses a modified version of the Exalted 2e system).

As for other things... I've played in one-offs of various other things. *thinks* Shadowrun 4e (fun, but the book is horribly laid out), L5R (well-researched and fun setting-wise, but we couldn't really grok the system very well, which was a shame... seemed unusually lethal too), and Weapons of the Gods (I really really want to play more of this one). Also, I'm dying to play Paranoia. I'd run it if I had the mindset for it, but i really don't think I do.

[The Gilded Duke]

I should probably say that my setting is based around sky pirates in airborne ships above shattered islands floating in an air-based world, with the uncovering of a dark gods eye causing it to possess it's finder and attempt to reunite with its other pieces and destroy the world (I've always been into epic story arcs!). I've got dwarves in 1800@s style floating sky dreadnoughts and elves in delicate skimmers, and of course orcs as the rabid ambushing pirate race, they just feel perfect fro that kind of role!

Hmm.. was originally going to avoid suggesting it, but you might want to check out Wraith. Although it deals with ghosts, of any of the settings it has the most flying magic, and storm magic, things that might translate well into an airship game.

As far as your different races, could probably do well to base them off of changeling.

Dwarves: Use Knockers and Goblins, including the rules for unusual magic machine creation.

Elves: Sidhe

Orcs: Redcaps

As far as magic systems, mage is the most flexible but the most unbalanced. If you want more flexibility then dnd but still a decent amount of structure and game balance go with the changeling magic system.

In it you have arts, targets?, and bunks.

Arts are what the powers are. Targets... it has another name, but its what you can effect. Bunks you use by making your magic more complex to perform but reduces the difficulty of the rolls.

Reading the entrails of a bird, Jumping off a building, reciting ancient languages, punching the ground all work as possible bunks.

If your doing airships, might want to check out the technocracy and the Sons of Ether for inspiration.

[Kurobara]

Dwarves: Use Knockers and Goblins, including the rules for unusual magic machine creation.

Elves: Sidhe

Orcs: Redcaps

I dunno, I think the stereotypical Dwarves would be better represented with Trolls, and Knockers fit Gnomes a little better. Yes, Dwarves are smiths, but gnomes are more the tinkerers, and also dwarves are stereotypically all lawful and honorable and protector-y and stuff. But that's just my opinion. Definitely agree with Sidhe for Elves and Redcaps for Orcs though.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm a big fan of the World of Darkness, particularly Werewolf.


I've done Vampire, Werewolf and even Prometheans,
So how is Prometheus? Is it fun and atmospheric? How does it compare to the other systems?



That actually close to how Mage works, except with Spheres instead of elements. Elements are all covered by Forces or Matter.
Actually Mage is way more complex than that. Mage works on the concept that "reality is what people believe it is", which is why e.g. television and modern medicine work (technocratic magic) and why the world isn't flat any more (no, I'm not kidding). As a Mage you can pull off all sorts of amazing stunts, but if it's literally incredible, nasty things happen to you.

For instance, a weather mage can cause lightning to strike where he wishes, during a storm. This is plausible, so no problem. That same mage can also shoot bolts of lightning from his hands. That's, well, weird. If "normal" people actually see it, it gets worse, but even if they don't it causes reality backlash on you. Which hurts.

Mage has nine "spheres" (roughly speaking, energy, time, life, mind, matter, space, spirit, death and primal) but for almost all effects you have to combine them. For instance, to turn yourself into a fire elemental you'd need energy and life. To disintegrate an object you'd need matter and death. Et cetera.

Oh yeah, bear in mind that Mage: the Awakening (nWOD) is radically different from Mage: the Ascension (oWOD).




On a related side note, I heard that Monte Cook is making a d20 World of Darkness. (IIRC, it is in fact entitled "Monte cook's World of Darkness")
Eek. Bad idea. Worse idea than Ctulhu d20, worse idea than GURPS world of darkness. World of Darkness is about atmosphere, d20 is about rules. The two don't mix. At all.



I should probably say that my setting is based around sky pirates in airborne ships above shattered islands floating in an air-based world,
That sounds really cool, but it's rather unlike the WOD books :) might I suggest TORG?

If you do want WOD, this fits Mage surprisingly well if you keep it relatively low-powered. Sons of Ether (device-based magi with all sorts of bubbling contraptions and whiz-bang gadgets) are very suitable for airship design, from pulp to steampunk. You can throw in a Verbena (wicca) healer and an Akashic Brother (martial artsy mystic) for variety. Of course, "bygones" and other mythical creatures work well with mage.

[Jannex]

In it you have arts, targets?, and bunks.

Arts are what the powers are. Targets... it has another name, but its what you can effect. Bunks you use by making your magic more complex to perform but reduces the difficulty of the rolls.

It's "Realms." I play a lot of Changeling. :smallwink:

[Skjaldbakka]

I think it will be a horrible travesty, but I am interested in seeing how the Mage system works in d20. I may buy it just for that purpose (I've messed around with a more M:tAw style d20 magic system myself).

[banjo1985]

Again thank you everybody for your help and suggestions, it's given me a lot to consider!

As for Promeatheans it is extremely atmospheric and one of the most stroy and character heavy experiences I've ever had, but it takes a very strong and experienced GM to handle, as it really needs a hell of a lot of preperation and freedom.

Anyway cheers to all, I'll be off to develop my game a bit more, I may even post when it gets up and running to say how it goes!

[Glaivemaster]

I'll agree with the person who said that Mage: the Ascension (NOT Awakening, which is nWoD) is a great system for fantasy magic. Unlike D&D, which forces you to use specific pre-designed spells, Mage allows you to come up with your own effects on the fly, to suit the demands of your current situation. As long as you have a sufficient level of mastery with whatever you're trying to effect (Matter for inanimate objects, Life for living systems, Forces for energy, etc.), you can do pretty much whatever you want--for a price. Making major changes to the fabric of reality causes reality to hit back, often in the form of damage or temporary flaws. And, as you said, a Mage can use Willpower to make his magic more effective. It's good stuff.

Mage: The Awakening lets you do that as well. It happens to have pre-generated spells in the book, but those are mostly the really basic and common stuff. I found that actually trying to use them like in DnD felt weird, because they don't allow you to do much really. But everything you've said there still applies to Awakening, so I don't see what the problem with using that instead is. Depends if you're mainly using new or old stuff. I can't imagine that the mix too well

[Winterking]

Banjo,
For the setting you describe, (or simply for good, adventuresome fun) I strongly recommend you try to get your hands on Adventure! Tales of the Aeon League. This was the earliest (chronologically) in White Wolf's old Trinity universe (Aberrant dealt with super-heroes, and Trinity was something futuristic, I believe). Adventure! is itself set in the 20's, and is based on classic pulp adventure stories. It's still mostly the standard White Wolf system, although with some mechanics similar to Ebberon's Action Points (basically, characters can use Inspiration--Adventure's equivalent to Vampiric blood--to "edit" the scene being created). It's well set up for cliff-hangers and other dramatic scenes, and many of the special powers/abilities would work just as well in a fantasy world (especially an airborne one) as in pulp comics.

[Jannex]

Mage: The Awakening lets you do that as well. It happens to have pre-generated spells in the book, but those are mostly the really basic and common stuff. I found that actually trying to use them like in DnD felt weird, because they don't allow you to do much really. But everything you've said there still applies to Awakening, so I don't see what the problem with using that instead is. Depends if you're mainly using new or old stuff. I can't imagine that the mix too well

Mostly, I had been intending to make it clear that my recommendation was specifically for Ascension, as that's the system with which I have experience. I haven't really looked at Awakening (not terribly enamored with nWoD), but I have friends who have played with it some, and the impression they've given me is that it's somewhat more limiting than Ascension.

[Glaivemaster]

Mostly, I had been intending to make it clear that my recommendation was specifically for Ascension, as that's the system with which I have experience. I haven't really looked at Awakening (not terribly enamored with nWoD), but I have friends who have played with it some, and the impression they've given me is that it's somewhat more limiting than Ascension.

I've never played oWod, and so I haven't played Ascension and similarly can't completely compare them. I know that it is possible to cast anything you want, so long as you have the right arcana, spheres, whatever you want to call them. However, it might be easier to do this in Ascension than it is in Awakening. I seem to remember that most spells I tried to use failed utterly if they wanted to have any real effect

[Jorkens]

As far as your different races, could probably do well to base them off of changeling.

Dwarves: Use Knockers and Goblins, including the rules for unusual magic machine creation.

Elves: Sidhe

Orcs: Redcaps
You could even leave them as they are... there's no law that says that all fantasy worlds have to have the standard Tolkein setup of orcs, goblins, elves, dwarves and so on y'know. :smalltongue:

I always quite liked the Mage magic system - it felt a bit more like you were testing the limits of reality with the power of your mind and a bit less like you were walking artillery in a pointy hat.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm playing in a World of Darkness crossover campaign, incorporating Hunter, Mage, Highlander (http://www.mants-lair.org.uk/wodindex.htm), and Werewolf for player characters. (The full Vampire, Werewolf, and Demon systems are used by the GM for our opposition, which can make things really dicey, and my character has the Allies background with a Church Knight among them.) It's kind of fun, though I prefer different systems for different things. I honestly don't think the WoD system would work very well for high or heroic fantasy, simply because of how deadly it is; you will almost never have a mortal WoD character stand against hordes of enemies and live, for instance.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm playing in a World of Darkness crossover campaign,
I'm wondering why Highlander? That's rather out of flavor for the WOD, not to mention way overpowered compared to anything short of Aberrant.

[Renegade Paladin]

Because one of the other players wanted to play it after retiring his werewolf. Said werewolf was a Get of Fenris ahroun, and waaaaaay outpowered his current character. So I'm not really seeing how it's too terribly more powerful than some of the other systems. It's certainly more powerful than Hunter, but that's just about everything as far as I can tell.

[Kurald Galain]

So I'm not really seeing how it's too terribly more powerful than some of the other systems.
Mainly because of ludicrous starting stats and quickening abilities. But that was the original version; I see that the current edition is more balanced.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, I'm not really at all familiar with the rules in the first place; he does his thing and I keep up with Hunter and Church Knight, because that's about all the systems I can handle learning at once. :smalltongue: