Master of Many Forms Questions (3.5)

[Datalore]

Hey there, I am a bit curious as to what creature powers the MoMF gets access to when it reaches level 7 (Extraordinary Wild Shape). The MoMF Bible suggests players get all Ex abilities, creature traits, feats and skills. However, that doesn't seem right.

1. Many of those skills and feats seem due to HD rather than being racial skills or feats. Wouldn't the only flat out racial skills be the ones called out in a special description (like 4 to survival when using scent, 8 to climb checks, etc?).

2. Monster Manual 2 has a line that says that an ability can be extraordinary, spell like or supernatural but if it has no designator, then it is just "natural" (p. 13). That suggests most creature traits (like plant immunities) are natural since most traits have no designator. I don't think the MoMF gets those if that is the case, right? Is there a place that says creature traits are extraordinary?

Also, one other thing. When the MoMF gets "Extraordinary Wildshape Shape" does Wild Shape turn into an Extraordinary ability? The name and the "Ex" designator suggests this but the description does not specify.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

[GreatDane]

1) Yes.
2) Correct; a MoMF wildshaped into a plant is not immune to precision damage, stunning, etc., since their creature type does not actually change.
3) Wild Shape remains a supernatural ability.

[Datalore]

Ya, that's what I figured. Bit of a bummer but would be a bit too good if I got to switch between all those traits on the fly.

[Datalore]

Here's a question. It does list creature traits under the special qualities section. So, the MoMF 7 should get stuff like darkvision, low light vision, blindsight, etc (mostly vision crap) since those specific traits are called out as extraordinary, right?

[bekeleven]

2. Monster Manual 2 has a line that says that an ability can be extraordinary, spell like or supernatural but if it has no designator, then it is just "natural" (p. 13). That suggests most creature traits (like plant immunities) are natural since most traits have no designator. I don't think the MoMF gets those if that is the case, right? Is there a place that says creature traits are extraordinary?Take the Tendrilucos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm).

Special Qualities: ... plant traits

A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special abilities that are not modes of attack. A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).

[Chronos]

But even if we take it as gospel that all abilities are (ex), (su), or (sp), that doesn't help deciding what any particular ability is. One can say "It must be extraordinary because it's not supernatural or spell-like", but then, one could just as easily say "It must be supernatural because it's not spell-like or extraordinary". I don't think that (ex) is ever specified to be any sort of default.

[Datalore]

Here is the MM2 quote:
"A special ability can be designated as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural, or it may have no designator (in which case the ability is considered natural)."
P. 13, Monster Manual 2

Saw this in the official FAQ:
"Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those."

[ShurikVch]

2. Monster Manual 2 has a line that says that an ability can be extraordinary, spell like or supernatural but if it has no designator, then it is just "natural" (p. 13). That suggests most creature traits (like plant immunities) are natural since most traits have no designator. I don't think the MoMF gets those if that is the case, right? Is there a place that says creature traits are extraordinary?Monster Manual II is seriously outdated; Monster Manual for 3.5 is newer (and Core)
A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).Monster Manual III (which is even newer) say similar thing:
A special ability is usually categorized either as extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).


But even if we take it as gospel that all abilities are (ex), (su), or (sp), that doesn't help deciding what any particular ability is. One can say "It must be extraordinary because it's not supernatural or spell-like", but then, one could just as easily say "It must be supernatural because it's not spell-like or extraordinary".Does it go away in AMF?
Would it ping on Detect Magic?
Can it be removed by Disjunction?
If not, then it neither (Sp) nor (Su)

[Chronos]

Does it go away in AMF?
Would it ping on Detect Magic?
Can it be removed by Disjunction?
If not, then it neither (Sp) nor (Su)
Yes, but how do you know if it goes away in an AMF? By determining whether it's extraordinary or not. Which does no good when that's the question we're trying to settle in the first place.

[Datalore]

Monster Manual II is seriously outdated; Monster Manual for 3.5 is newer (and Core)Monster Manual III (which is even newer) say similar thing:


But isn't the FAQ newer than all of those? Again, it says:

"Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those."

[Necroticplague]

But isn't the FAQ newer than all of those? Again, it says:

"Unless a racial trait is specifically referred to elsewhere as an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability (such as blindsense or damage reduction), it isn’t any of those."

FAQ isn't RAW. They're literally just some dude's opinion or ruling. And sometimes contradict each other.

However. it seems everyone is forgetting one last category of abilities that exists, according to the SRD: Natural abilities. These aren't special abilities, but they are abilities.

[ShurikVch]

Yes, but how do you know if it goes away in an AMF? By determining whether it's extraordinary or not. Which does no good when that's the question we're trying to settle in the first place.OK, also no ability is (Sp) or (Su) unless it marked as such somewhere in the RAW

However. it seems everyone is forgetting one last category of abilities that exists, according to the SRD: Natural abilities.Apparently, it's one of those cases when WotC wrote something and promptly forgot about it
Off the top of my head I can't name a single monster in the whole 3.X with natural SA/SQs

These aren't special abilities, but they are abilities.Also, those ones may be reserved for such things as Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, bird's fly speed, or fish's water breathing - i. e. things which are, while present in creatures, never got their one mention after the "Level Adjustment:"
Abilities? Certainly!
SA/SQ? Nuh-uh!

[Datalore]

Trying argue that most creature traits are not natural abilities is a real stretch if you ask me.

[Necroticplague]

OK, also no ability is (Sp) or (Su) unless it marked as such somewhere in the RAW
Apparently, it's one of those cases when WotC wrote something and promptly forgot about it
Off the top of my head I can't name a single monster in the whole 3.X with natural SA/SQs
Also, those ones may be reserved for such things as Natural Armor, Natural Attacks, bird's fly speed, or fish's water breathing - i. e. things which are, while present in creatures, never got their one mention after the "Level Adjustment:"
Abilities? Certainly!
SA/SQ? Nuh-uh!
I've seen plenty. A Protean's regeneration and immunities, a rogue's sneak attack and trapfinding, a fighter's bonus feats, all of a dwarve's abilities, all of the Wizard's class features, barbarian's Illliteracy, almost all instances of Darkvision. All natural abilities.

[Datalore]

Actually, darkvision is always extraordinary according to rules.

There is one thing to consider. The SRD makes a distinction between "natural abilities" and "special abilities."

"Natural Abilities
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

"Special Abilities
A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature."

Creature traits are listed under the "Special Qualities" portion of the creature table. Could that be of significance? If creature traits are "special" according to the table, are they defacto extraordinary, spell like or supernatural (natural being excluded thanks to being designated as "special" in the table)?

[bekeleven]

Trying argue that most creature traits are not natural abilities is a real stretch if you ask me.
A monstrous scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm) has the following unarguably extraordinary abilities: the ability to pinch someone with its claws, the ability to hurt someone it's pinching with its claws, and poison in its stinger.

Actually, darkvision is always extraordinary according to rules.
Feats are extraordinary except when otherwise noted (Exalted/Vile).

[Chronos]

Quoth ShurikVch:

OK, also no ability is (Sp) or (Su) unless it marked as such somewhere in the RAW
And just where does it say that?

[ShurikVch]

And just where does it say that?Common sense.
Unless you have quote which say otherwise

[Chronos]

Is it common sense that an arcane trickster's ability to pick locks from 30' away is nonmagical?

[Necroticplague]

Is it common sense that an arcane trickster's ability to pick locks from 30' away is nonmagical?

Yes. Never says they use magic for that ability anywhere in there description, so i have no reason to assume they do.

[Chronos]

So, (ex) is the default because that's what common sense dictates, and it's common sense because that's what the default is. Got any non-circular reasoning?

[LTwerewolf]

Common sense should be thrown out the window, as it's a house rule that explicitly defies the rules as written in many circumstances.