Help with Rogue / psion or rogue/ arcane

[SacredSorcery]

Hello all I am in a bit of a tough area in making a choice in how I want a character to develop out and need some time to run it by my DM.

a bit of back story is this character has had her mind rip appart by mindlfyer abuse and as such I make dice rolsl to determine personality traits for diffrent reasons ( waking up, taking a major hit ect.).

I started rogue so will not be able to change out from that.

d&d 3.5
stats ( from dice rolls)

Human:
STR:12
DEX:18
CON:16
INT:17
WIS:9
CHA:16

the group consist of myself, a Factotum, Cleric of pelor ( sun and healing domains), a fighter ( specilizing to Arcane archer), and a scout.... we have no melee (tanky characters), no arcane caster ( besdies the bits from factotum) and an abundance of skill monkey ability's ( which was gonna be what I aimed for but not so sure its required now)

So I had been toying around with Rogue/wizard(sorc?)/arcane trickster/spellwarp sniper bits but having some issues trying to figure out how I could rationlize wizard for a mentally unstable character. but with the damage frmo mindflayers i could potentially easly slip into a psion type build but have never palyed one so I guess looking for the ideas of veterans assistance.

only restriction is nothign from dragon without approval via DM.

Thanks,

-Sacred

[ComaVision]

Are you aware of the Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) class?

[SacredSorcery]

I wasnt until after I rolled my Character we have player a few tiems now so I wouldnt be able to change from just rogue to Pyschic Rogue but could multiclass into it if it seems viable. though their powers seem kinda meh unless I am missing something.

[ComaVision]

Ah, you didn't mention the character is already in play. Are you level 1 currently?

Rogue 1/Wiz or Sorc 4/Unseen Seer X is better than Arcane Trickster, and you could specialize in using your rays to get Sneak Attack damage. Make sure you pick up the Craven feat as well. If you don't have enough skill points for that, you may need to do Rogue 1/Wiz or Sorc 3/Rogue +1/Unseen Seer X.

[Segev]

If you want to go wizard, you could justify it as either some sort of brain-damage-induced savant skill, or even go creepier and have the familiar narratively come first. Have it be, in reality, a projection of some sort of powerful entity that is holding your mind together for you and teaching you magic...for its own purposes.

Either way, you could slip into Wild Mage for a dip before going for Spellwarp Sniper, if you wanted, to reflect your madness and its influence on your magic.

Alternatively, your Charisma is not far behind your Int; you could go Sorcerer as your rent mind broke in ways that naturally sees how magic "works." Your spells are magical tricks you've picked up as easily as you picked up pickpocketing or lockpicking; it's just something you can do, right? At least, if you've got the damaged mind to perceive reality in that fractured way.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Flavour-wise, wilder into Anarchic Initiate is great. Powerful manifesting, but not a lot of powers - a bit like a sorcerer. Doesn't really help your rogue abilities any, though.

[SacredSorcery]

Sorry about not mentioning the character was in play, I have more than enough skill points with so many skill monkeys in play i was strugglign to figure out where to place them all so held everythign that didnt go into slight of hand, hide, move silently and disable device.

no struggle between wiz and sorcerer for this setup? and yeah one of the reasons I had looked at Arcane trickstera nd spellwarp sniper was to use rays for sneak attack. and arcane trickster continued SA progression. I only ask because Sorc is easier to rationlize for a mental broken character

[SacredSorcery]

If you want to go wizard, you could justify it as either some sort of brain-damage-induced savant skill, or even go creepier and have the familiar narratively come first. Have it be, in reality, a projection of some sort of powerful entity that is holding your mind together for you and teaching you magic...for its own purposes.

Either way, you could slip into Wild Mage for a dip before going for Spellwarp Sniper, if you wanted, to reflect your madness and its influence on your magic.

Alternatively, your Charisma is not far behind your Int; you could go Sorcerer as your rent mind broke in ways that naturally sees how magic "works." Your spells are magical tricks you've picked up as easily as you picked up pickpocketing or lockpicking; it's just something you can do, right? At least, if you've got the damaged mind to perceive reality in that fractured way.

I kind of like this idea. I have already been discussing with my DM here and there and pretty much handed him free rain over hallucinations and such for this character.

What book is Wild Mage in I’m not overly familiar with it. And with that is spellwarp sniper worth it it is nice for SA but if I don’t take a lot of rogue SA isn’t much to work with really right?

[SacredSorcery]

Flavour-wise, wilder into Anarchic Initiate is great. Powerful manifesting, but not a lot of powers - a bit like a sorcerer. Doesn't really help your rogue abilities any, though.

I have to consider how much use the rogue abilities will really be in a group with a factotum and a scout. I have no problem falling into a bit of rogue flavor but being a primary caster ( a roll I am use to filling with this group as none of them like mages or psions) our cleric casts minumally and focuses than mainly on healing.

are both the Wilder and Anarchic initiate in complete psionic or spread out across other books? ( just need to know where to look when sitting in the DM library cave lol)

[Segev]

What book is Wild Mage in I’m not overly familiar with it.Complete Mage, I believe. If not that, Complete Arcane. But I think it's Mage.


And with that is spellwarp sniper worth it it is nice for SA but if I don’t take a lot of rogue SA isn’t much to work with really right?
Not sure; I only mentioned it because you'd indicated interest. I believe it gives some SA, but I could be wrong.

[Warrnan]

Rogue1/ wizard4/ unseen seer10/ spell warp sniper5 is a great build. It's basically wizard 19 + steal the rogue's class role. Good for mundane scouting and divination. Grab able learner.

It has 7d6+20 sneak attack if you grab craven or 13d6+20 bursts if you want to use hunter's eye as one of your unseen seer's advanced learnings. Optional cheese: trade 3 spellwarp sniper for 3 levels of incantatrix and persist hunter's eye for 12d6+20 all day. Probably unneeded and might prompt books thrown in your direction.
Consult your local DM first.

Pew pew sneak attack wizard is sort of a waste of tier one power but is very very fun.

As far as a smart wizard being unstable, this is a common thing. Raistlin, voldemort, and so many other wizards are crazy or messed up in one way or another. A person with a low wisdom score but a large int would be this sort of character. Strange behavior and smart wizards seem to go hand in hand, just watch some Harry Potter and you'll see what I mean.

[SacredSorcery]

Rogue1/ wizard4/ unseen seer10/ spell warp sniper5 is a great build. It's basically wizard 19 + steal the rogue's class role. Good for mundane scouting and divination. It has 7d6+20 sneak attack if you grab craven or 13d6+20 bursts if you want to use hunter's eye as one of your unseen seer's advanced learnings. Optional cheese: trade 3 spellwarp sniper for 3 levels of incantatrix and persist hunter's eye for 12d6+20 all day. Probably unneeded and will prompt books thrown in your direction.

Pew pew sneak attack wizard is sort of a waste of tier one power but is very very fun. I prefer Halfling with this. Lol.
Books thrown at me is pretty common with this character as with our second session, I had the City guard convinced our cleric was crazy...

is there any way to squeeze wild mage ( for the laughs more than anything) the campaign doesn’t seem highly optimized but will more than likely go into the epic levels as the DM is a bit notorious for this. And while the personality and roleplay bits are there for the character something like wild mage might be enough mechanically to play without breaking the game ( which was my major concern when considering multiple character sheets and different classes for the different personalities.)

[Warrnan]

If I were you, I'd get my hands on a rod of wonder. Or just roll randomly to decide what spell you cast.

Wild mage will lose you up to 10 levels of rogue goodies for a few chaos flavored abilities. Perhaps grab first level to do the random caster level thing this will only cost you 1d6 sneak attack and a few skill points. If you've got someone else covering the rogue responsibilities, go nuts with the whole 10 levels.

[FocusWolf413]

Why does your character remind me of River Tam?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I have to consider how much use the rogue abilities will really be in a group with a factotum and a scout. I have no problem falling into a bit of rogue flavor but being a primary caster ( a roll I am use to filling with this group as none of them like mages or psions) our cleric casts minumally and focuses than mainly on healing.

are both the Wilder and Anarchic initiate in complete psionic or spread out across other books? ( just need to know where to look when sitting in the DM library cave lol)
Wilder is in Expanded Psionics handbook, Anarchic Initiate is from Complete Psionic.

If you're looking for a primary caster, wilders probably don't have enough versatility. Any of the wizard builds will do fine, or you can try talking your DM into allowing an Erudite (Spell to Power or no), perhaps converting a PrC of your choice to psionics. Tell him you've gotten an eidetic memory for powers of the mind after your illithid episode.

[Troacctid]

FWIW there is a template for creatures that have had their brains scooped out by Mind Flayers, it's called Voidmind and I believe it's in Monster Manual III. It has a +3 level adjustment though so it may not be viable.

[SacredSorcery]

If I were you, I'd get my hands on a rod of wonder. Or just roll randomly to decide what spell you cast.

Wild mage will lose you up to 10 levels of rogue goodies for a few chaos flavored abilities. Perhaps grab first level to do the random caster level thing this will only cost you 1d6 sneak attack and a few skill points. If you've got someone else covering the rogue responsibilities, go nuts with the whole 10 levels.


well with factotum and their ability to seemingly be good at everything skill based at a given time, and a scout taking up the role of well....scout we are left with an archer and a cleric. but even if I don't go wild mage for the flavor but ( which on further reading I may skip on and just number my spell list and roll a dice). I still am not getting more rogue abilities than what I have now really besides increase SA.

and only having two levels of Spellwarp sniper would mean I could warp up to second level spells but by that late in the game not 100% sure how usful somthing like scorch, or frost breath in ray form would help. ( if I am way off please correct) so would it just make more sense to go the unseen seer ( which I am not majorly familir with just know its recommended alot evne in the rogue hand book). and take 5 levels of incantrix or should i try and squeeze in just he three incantrix and pick up somehting like archmage for 2 levels.

thanks for all the ideas thus far you guys / gals are awsome!

[SacredSorcery]

FWIW there is a template for creatures that have had their brains scooped out by Mind Flayers, it's called Voidmind and I believe it's in Monster Manual III. It has a +3 level adjustment though so it may not be viable.

I will have to discuss with the DM ( we use alot of homebrew custom races and level adjustment is kind of none exsistant unless you are looking at something excessivly strong ( dragon))
but intresting...

[Warrnan]

The reasons I recommend unseen seer 10 : 1) 4d6 sneak attack (only one less than 10 levels of rogue). 2) full arcane spellcasting progression. 3) 6+int skills/ level. 4) stealing divinations off of other class lists can be fantastic.

Reasons for spellwarp sniper: 2d6 sneak attack for Rays. And the ability to sneak attack from 60 feet. Decent skills and HP, full caster level.

Good luck and happy adventuring! :)

[Fouredged Sword]

Another few interesting ideas.

Are you Human or human descended? Consider

Rogue 2 / Beguiler 3 (Literally any class works here) / Chameleon 10 / X.

Chameleon can be anything. Great class if you are looking for a way to fit into a party with overlapping roles. Just keep your focus on arcane and be a caster.

You start to remember your past life... and then another past life... and another. You don't know who you are. Memories have returned to you, but it's a jumble of several people. You are not the person you once where. You are something new, someone new. It's time for you to find your place in the world.

You can give each focus a name and personality and switch between them. Don't play it that you are unaware of your condition, or that you lose your memories. It's just that using the "Skills" of your various personalities brings you into sync with their identity.

Other alternatives for the three level filler

Monk 3 - Trade the second evasion for ray reflection
Spellthief 3 - Steal spell and spell effect
Swashbuckler 3 - int to damage
Rogue 3-5 - Sneak attack is good.

[SacredSorcery]

Another few interesting ideas.

Are you Human or human descended? Consider

Rogue 2 / Beguiler 3 (Literally any class works here) / Chameleon 10 / X.

Chameleon can be anything. Great class if you are looking for a way to fit into a party with overlapping roles. Just keep your focus on arcane and be a caster.

You start to remember your past life... and then another past life... and another. You don't know who you are. Memories have returned to you, but it's a jumble of several people. You are not the person you once where. You are something new, someone new. It's time for you to find your place in the world.

You can give each focus a name and personality and switch between them. Don't play it that you are unaware of your condition, or that you lose your memories. It's just that using the "Skills" of your various personalities brings you into sync with their identity.

Other alternatives for the three level filler

Monk 3 - Trade the second evasion for ray reflection
Spellthief 3 - Steal spell and spell effect
Swashbuckler 3 - int to damage
Rogue 3-5 - Sneak attack is good.

This is an interesting concept, I’m not familiar with the chameleon class so will have to read up on it. I started human but with the back story written the DM wouldn’t have many issues with something that would fall into those categories.

[Fouredged Sword]

Chameleon is a really interesting class that is designed to act very differently from day to day. It's human only as it requires the human only Able Learner feat (no 1 rank for 2 points cost on cross class skills). Each day you select one (eventually 2) focuses. Most of them offer static bonuses that help you fill a roll. These are pretty nice, doubly so when paired with the large stat bonus (up to +6, stacks with enhancement bonuses) you can apply to any one stat and the floating feat you can resign each day. You also get a small pool of uses for copying other class abilities like smite evil and sneak attack.

The big draws are the arcane and divine focuses though. The arcane focus allows you to keep a spellbook with arcane spells copied from scrolls. These spells can come from any arcane casting class. You get 1-6th level spell slots to cast these spells from. Divine focus is even better. Same spell slots, you can just prep spells from any divine casting list.

One problem is that you cannot use anything from your focus to qualify for anything. All feats and such must be qualified for without accounting for your aptitude focus.

Want to be a wizard? Take arcane focus! Want to be a druid? Take divine focus and set your floating feat to Wild Cohort for an animal companion. Need an extra paladin, take divine focus and smite anything/turn undead with your Mimic class feature. Barbarian? You can take combat focus, set your aptitude bonus to strength, and rage with the best of them.

[SacredSorcery]

Thanks to everyone who have given me great ideas and lots of food for thought! I haven't completely decided yet and tonight is game night thankfull we dont do XP every session so I should be okay, with more time to decide.

Anyone intrested I'm add the back story in a spoiler tab.

Adalina was born into a family of traveling acrobats and tumblers, she was learning the family trade when a raiding party attack the small town they were performing in. at the age of 7 she was taken captive and delivered to a illithid community where she was made a Thrall and used to entertain and acquire items for the masters along with being a training dummy for the illithid children and their psionic attacks. 13 years passed in this form she had gained a bit of free roam within her job of acquiring things for the illithids using sleight of hand and distractions to swipe and steal items from other under dark denizens such as the Dark Elves and Dwarves.

It was on one of these ventures that she was followed back to the illithed community by a drow warrior she had stolen a small token or relic from for her illithid master. The drow having recognized her as a thrall decided better to deal with the master.


Once inside the compound the drow waited and patiently watched and when opportunity showed itself struck killing the illithid in a single blow. What he did not know is the illithid had directly connected its self mentally to Adalina and when it died the girl screamed like the sound of a banshee before collapsing into a muttering heap. The drow watched for a short period of time contemplating putting the girl out of her misery or taking some enjoyment because after 13 years of psionic attacks and twisting she had become unhinged without the masters voice. In the end of it he left her chuckling at the silly human and her weak mind.


Three years have passed now....she was rescued by a group of traders while she aimlessly wondered the underdark...and they took her back to the surface gave her new clothes...a small knife and traveled with her for several days before the voices started....soft whispers in her ear like the masters use to be..... but softer more gentle but just as commanding....she slaughtered the traders in their sleep giggling while she drew the knife across the leaders throat shushing him in his wide eyed terror...than the first of his body guards a half-orc she was amazed when her knife and half her fist was able to fit up his nose in a single thrust wide eyed amusement on her face. The last was the dwarf with the beard that nearly touched the ground and as red as a drows eye. She carved out his guts trying on intestine as a scarf at first but discarding it shortly after. Tired and giddy she lay down in her bed roll covered in blood and slept.

When she woke the next day she looked around at the remains and blinked confused....some drow must have snuck in and killed them! She immediately thanked the sky for she had no god of her own for her being alive and set about gathering supply’s and started building traps so they wouldn’t sneak up on her! Normal items seeming to take on new meaning while she worked in her craft engineering rudimentary snares traps stuffing them into a bag along with other useful items and a few daggers from the dead body guards and head out on her way. Whistling a song she swore she learned from the now deceased dwarf....it never occurred to her to bury the dead.... Or burn the cart she just had her pack with her items from the illithid camp and what she plundered from the traders.



cheers!

-Sacred

[SacredSorcery]

So after the short delay and another session (where we got XP). I find my self to the point of making the decission and after discussing with the DM I am looking to go the Arcane route

Rogue 1, Wiz/Sorc 4, Unseen Seer 10, ?????

So what it comes down to now is a few choices as I dislike the need to keep up with familiars I will be droping that class skill regardless.

so:

Sorcerer: Metamagic Specialist (PHB2, page 61)

Domain Wizard (UA) with the Instant Magic Varient added in (unsure if that is good choice or not just looking for a familiar drop)

not sure which Domain to choose.

that later part for further down the road is.... if I go the incantrix route I am left with 2 levels of spell warp sniper which only allows me to warp spells of up to 2nd level (not alot of options I have seen in that area) so would taking 5 levels of incantrix make more sense? I know I am losing 1d6 sneak damage from sudden ray strike.

But its coming down to this character being more of the primary caster of the party but want to keep some skills high for RP reasons ( Perform dance, Slight of hand(I read somewhere about conceled spell casting), tumble) to fit the character back ground.

so open to more suggestion with these new bits of input fire away! :)

[Troacctid]

not sure which Domain to choose.

Pretty much all the domains are good. You can't really go wrong. I'd say Battle and Necromancy are probably the worst ones, and Evocation is a bit underwhelming as well, but otherwise anything will do.

[tsj]

What if your DM brews up an anti level class

each level: flaw, -d12 HD, -10 skill pts, 3× -5 saves, -1 BAB?

That could easily be worth enabling you to take a level of something