Occultist vs. Psychic Investigator

[Segev]

I'm playing a character whose best shorthand description is "a teenaged male Jade Chan" in a game heavily inspired by Gravity Falls (so mysterious town of weirdness). The PCs are at a summer camp and things are already really, really weird.

We're currently built with d20 Modern rules (Drake, my PC, is a Smart Hero), but we're going to be picking up and developing Occult Classes. I'm torn between Occultist and the Psychic Detective archetype for Investigator, and am looking for advice. If you think something would work better still, please share that, too; I'm not wedded to these thus far.

The essential elements of Drake as a character that I want to get across are a tendency to leap before he looks so readily that he can pull off something like Jade Chan's "Hi Jackie!" already-there stunts (i.e., the party will get someplace and he's already there, and has been long enough to have done something relevant or picked up a clue to get them a head start or the like), and a proclivity for curiosity and being too clever/smart for his own good, such that he lands in trouble before he even realizes he's there and has to use brains, cleverness, and shenanigans to get out of it again (probably with help).

Ideally, while he might cause trouble this way, he also will be a good guy to go to for help getting out of trouble, and for being the "reserves" to get others out of trouble. Usefulness outweighing troublemaking, and thus being a valued party member without being "the star."


I'm liking Occultist's method of getting magic; I can see Drake delving into mysteries and figuring out how "magic items" (the Occultist Implements) work, and how to arrange things according to certain ritualistic-but-repeatable means to get specific effects. I can see illusion and abjuration both being good for him, letting him seem not to be where he is, or to be where he isn't, as well as manipulating environment and getting himself out of scrapes. Conjuration's good for that, too.

On the other hand, as a Smart Hero he's very good with skills, and having the Investigator's Inspiration power is really cool. Many of the Talents of that class are also very thematic and useful to being just plain better at having the right skill/tool at the right time, or knowing what is going on. However, we must take the Occult archetypes. The Psychic spell list on the Bard spell chassis is not bad, but the swap of the first Investigator Talent for a Phrenic Amplification feels really, really lame. I like the Talents, and the Amplifications are just...not useful towards anything I'm aiming for. MAYBE the one that grants bonuses to physical stats, but I wasn't looking at any spells that would trigger it. And none of the other amplifications do much for the spells I was considering, either.


If there was a way to get Investigator Talents and Inspiration and Occultist Implements/Foci into one class, that might work.

I don't care for Psychic because Drake isn't really "straight full spellcaster" material, and does better with heavy focus on Int rather than Int/Wis or Int/Cha, anyway. (Though having a "dark side" is an amusing concept.)


Any advice on tricks or build ideas to better accomplish what I'm looking to do? Any questions on what I'm looking to achieve that I can attempt to answer either to clarify or further flesh out Drake? I'm open to some fluff adjustment to fit other ideas, as well, though I have a "feel" in mind that I don't want to abandon.

I am, however, open to suggestions. Either for what of the above to go with, or other ideas. (If I seem argumentative about them later, it's more me debating out loud with myself so people can either quell objections or help me come up with better solutions based on them.)


Oh, and the way this is working is that we'll "pick up" the occult classes by gestalting them with our existing d20 Modern classes. So I'll keep advancing Smart Hero along side whatever I take, if that has any impact on your advice or tricks that can be performed.

Thanks!

[Segev]

Bumping once; hoping for advice or insight into how best to use occult classes towards this character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's always Intense Focus - you'll probably have to make a check to cast defensively pretty regularly.

[Segev]

First off: thanks for the reply!


There's always Intense Focus - you'll probably have to make a check to cast defensively pretty regularly.

Hrm. Choosing utility spells from the psychic list, I probably won't be casting in combat at all. Looking at the list of probable choices, illusion of calm covers most of those situations, too. And the rest are usually pre-combat and non-combat/utility spells.

Here's my tentative list up through level 6:

0 - L1: 1. Detect Psychic Significance
2. Prestidigitation
3. Message
4. Mending
L2: 5. Mage Hand
L3: 6. Telekinetic Projectile

1 - L1: 1. Animal Purpose Training (works only on indifferent or better attitude) or Unseen Servant
2. Illusion of Calm
L2: 3. Silent Image
L3: 4. Feather Step or Monkey Fish

2 - L4: 1. Acute Senses or Hypercognition
2. Apport Object or Hidden Speech or Mirror Hideaway or Rope Trick
L5: 3. Confess or Focused Scrutiny or Locate Object
L6: 4. Eagle Eye or Investigative Mind


I suppose I could change my choices around to MAKE one of the phrenic amplifications useful, but... that's dissatisfying.

That's assuming Psychic Detective Investigator, rather than Occultist.




Is the trade-off of a phrenic amplification in place of the first Investigator Talent supposed to feel like a bad deal? Are psychic spells so much better than alchemical ones that the archetype needs a nerf? Or am I just "doing it wrong" with that kind of a spell selection, rather than a more overt and combat-oriented array?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, I'm certainly not going to claim that Pazio has a firm grasp on what is and isn't balanced. But yeah, I think there is an expectation that medium BAB/6th level spellcasters are going to support their mundane skills with magic. Drop the odd Enlarge Person or Ablative Barrier or something, at the very least. Your list does look a little too utility-heavy for a spontaneous caster, especially one who's also the best skill-using class in the game (big list, 6 points/level, Int focus and the traits/Archetypes to apply it to, like , everything, Inspiration).

[Khosan]

Is the trade-off of a phrenic amplification in place of the first Investigator Talent supposed to feel like a bad deal? Are psychic spells so much better than alchemical ones that the archetype needs a nerf? Or am I just "doing it wrong" with that kind of a spell selection, rather than a more overt and combat-oriented array?

It's a pretty good trade off. You don't need to take Infusion, your spells can affect multiple targets and you get an array of debuffs (if that's your thing).

On the flip side, you don't have a way of applying Personal target spells to other people like a normal Alchemist can. No Beast Shape for the fighter or other such shenanigans.


Int focus and the traits/Archetypes to apply it to, like everything

Unfortunately, Psychic Detective can't be combined with Empiricist, so less Int synergy without traits.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Unfortunately, Psychic Detective can't be combined with Empiricist, so less Int synergy without traits.
I noticed, yeah. Very sad.

It might actually be worth asking your GM if you can skip the extra parts of the archetype and just trade extracts for spells. He's already mixing systems...

[Segev]

I probably will.

The other one I like, as I've said, is Occultist; I can see the flavor working well with a "find magic tools and figure out how to make them work, even hacking together extra effects from combining them" sort of fluff applied to the Implements and their Foci and spells. But I know I'd miss Inspiration, because that's what primarily calls to me in the Investigator.

While I have made some analysis of my own, I would appreciate it if those with more experience or insight into the classes might offer their own opinions and comparisons. What are the strengths of Psychic Detective Investigator vs. Occultist, and vice-versa? Which would work better for the meddlesome teen delving into the mysteries of a Town Of (supernatural) Mystery with his rag-tag friends of a similar age group?

(Drake is, in particular, supposed to be good at leaping ahead and then stopping to think about it to get his way back out of trouble.)

[Florian]

Sorry, I´m not really into Manga/Anime at all, so I can´t comment on the archetype this should be based on.
I can comment on the Occultist, though, currently playing one ;)

- Being an INT-based caster with 4+ skill points, you´ll end up quite the skill monkey with a very good skill list.
- The Occultist is way more focused on combat than the (Psychic) Investigator and can hold its ground there.
- The class has very good investigative abilities, but the GM has to play along with them.
- Implements are very interesting as they nearly let you imitate other classes to a certain point. (No healer around? Conjuration can help you...)
- Superior Minionmancy.

You can de-MAD the class by playing an Elf and entering the Elven Battle Torrent feat chain, allowing INT2DMG, which is very nice. Other races could enter the Kirin Style chain to achieve a similar effect.

This class has a distinctive problem and the is the scaling issue. Very few Implement powers scale really well and those you want to grab asap, meaning Illusion (Shadow Bast) and Abjuration (Magic Barrier).

[Tetraplex]

If your DM is open to mixing systems a bit more (and you can deal with losing a bit of casting progression) a sip of 1-3 levels of Factotum from 3.5 would get you inspiration too, plus some nifty other tricks like adding that INT to your strength and dexterity skills.

[Segev]

We're required, in our non modern d20 side of the gestalt, to have an "occult class." Which means something from the occult adventures book (including new occult archetypes). So no factotum.

Neither Jackie Chan Adventures nor Gravity Falls is a manga nor an anime, but if you've not seen them, it doesn't really matter if they are or not.


We're also all human, so no elf-only racial feats.

I am confused, though: what is MAD about the Occultist? It seemed pretty straight Int-dependent, to me. Did I miss something?

[Florian]

I am confused, though: what is MAD about the Occultist? It seemed pretty straight Int-dependent, to me. Did I miss something?

You apparently did. The Occultist is a 1st-to-6th caster and excess INT will be "lost" here, as you can´t put the high ability score to use. Further, for Focus Powers, racial FCB will scale higher and faster than points pumped into INT.
We´re talking about an "Off Caster" class here that needs all three physical stats to work on combat and is enhanced by having a high INT score for more that that w/o having the benefit of being a true gish in PF.
So yes, discounting any DEX2DMG or INT2DMG builds, this class can be pretty MAD, needing 4 stats to function.

[Segev]

You apparently did. The Occultist is a 1st-to-6th caster and excess INT will be "lost" here, as you can´t put the high ability score to use. Further, for Focus Powers, racial FCB will scale higher and faster than points pumped into INT.
We´re talking about an "Off Caster" class here that needs all three physical stats to work on combat and is enhanced by having a high INT score for more that that w/o having the benefit of being a true gish in PF.
So yes, discounting any DEX2DMG or INT2DMG builds, this class can be pretty MAD, needing 4 stats to function.

Int still determines their save DCs, even for their Foci. I don't see them as a strong combatant class, certainly not a physical combatant. I figured their spells and foci were their primary contribution, with utility skills being their backup. They don't hit level 7+ spells, but they're more support than physical contributor, and use lower-level spells to contribute when pressed.

Where does the class suggest physical combat is at all a forte?

[Khosan]

Where does the class suggest physical combat is at all a forte?

Occultists using Transmutation implements can be pretty effective at combat, owing that mostly to the ability to slap Bane on everything they wield at almost no cost.

There's also the Battle Host (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/occult-adventures/occult-classes/occultist/archetypes/paizo-llc---occultist-archetypes/battle-host-occultist-archetype) archetype, which gives you some bonus combat feats and some extra goodies in exchange for getting fewer total implements.

[Florian]

Int still determines their save DCs, even for their Foci. I don't see them as a strong combatant class, certainly not a physical combatant. I figured their spells and foci were their primary contribution, with utility skills being their backup. They don't hit level 7+ spells, but they're more support than physical contributor, and use lower-level spells to contribute when pressed.

Where does the class suggest physical combat is at all a forte?

Get off your high horse and look at PB20 or even PB15. Like a Bard or Skald, this is a support class and the spell casting is a support feature that you use to enhance your combat abilities, and not to be your main combat abilities.
You have Medium Armor and all Martial Weapon and the Abjuration and Transmutation Implements give you cheap means to excel in this area.

[Segev]

I'm not sure why the insulting tone is being used, here, nor what "high horse" I'm supposed to get off of. >_>

It certainly CAN be played as a magic-assisted physical combatant. All I said was that I didn't see it as inherently such. I had not considered just how effective they might be what with adding Bane to every attack.

Please note that I wasn't asking to MAKE a combat-centric Occultist, so while I am sure the archetypes to make it moreso are great at doing so, asking how the base one is combat-centric to the point of MAD doesn't mean I'm being stubborn, stupid, or blind for not having considered archetypes.


So, for a curious, too-smart-for-his-own-good, exuberant character whose exuberance can get him into trouble before he even realizes it that is stuck in a mysterious town of mystery and is supposed to be able to leap headlong in, figure out how things work, then use what he's figured out to get back out of trouble...

Is Occultist or Psychic Investigator going to complement Smart Hero better?

What really has me torn is that I like the Implements and I like Inspiration; I can take or leave the Psychic spell list. I'm not currently looking to build him with an eye towards combat as a primary, though obviously it'll be necessary to some extent (as it is a d20 game). Avoidance, infiltration, and figuring things out (he's the kind of kid who's not allowed to go back to space camp because of an incident involving explosions he totally didn't mean to cause while trying something clever but with inadequate safety precautions) are meant to be fortés. Athletic enough to get places (especially where he's not supposed to go) easily, but not a sports superstar.