How much would this effect things?

[torrasque666]

After looking through the "hodgepodge of classes" thread I got thinking.

What if when leveling up in a base class, you had the option of gaining the special abilities that the class would have gained at your new character level or starting from level 1 in that class? I don't things like spells, or powers known, or incarnum stuff (essentia, number of binds, number of melds) or even necessarily maneuvers known/readied/stances, just specifically the things in the Special Column on the table. Anything that has a "this ability is keyed to your class level" thing (like a Paladin's Lay on Hands, which is Paladin level times CHA for max healed) would still be limited to how many levels you actually have.

So a character going from Fighter 4 to Fighter 4/Rogue 1 would gain a die of sneak attack (as that is all the rogue technically gains at 5th level) and someone going Paladin 7 to Paladin 7/Soulborn 1 would gain the Crown, Feat, and Hands chakra binds, even though they wouldn't have any melds to go there yet. Or someone dipping into monk at a later level (lets say 7) would have the option of either getting the abilities of a Monk 1 or a Monk 7 (so the Bonus feat, flurry of blows, unarmed strike features vs Wholeness of Body). But if for example, someone went Monk 2/Paladin 1 at level 3, opting for the abilities of Paladin 1 over Paladin 3 and decided they wanted to take another Paladin level at 4, they would still have the option of getting the abilities of Paladin 4, though they would then skip out on the abilities of Paladin 2 and 3. If this example went back to Monk at level 6, they would have the option of either going Monk 3, or skipping ahead to Monk 6 for their special abilities. Though for the purposes of the monk's unarmed damage, they would be treated as if they were a Monk 3 either way, and they would still have the BAB of the Monk 3, the saves, etc.

If I'm explaining this poorly, feel free to ask for clarification. I'm slightly wondering what kind of influence this would have on game balance as well, letting those who aren't constrained to a subsystem dip around and get higher level abilities even though they haven't exactly devoted themselves to that class.

[ComaVision]

First of all, that would result in prohibitively complicated builds.

[Waazraath]

And stronger builds, obviously. And much, much more options... and 3.5 already has so much!

[John Longarrow]

Could lead to some odd issues...
Lvl 4 fighter decides that at 5th they will dip barbarian. So they'd get Improved Uncanny Dodge without ever getting Uncanny Dodge. Not sure if that will work well, but it does give a different feel to choosing your next level.

[Ashtagon]

Fighter becomes an insanely good dip if you're hungry for feats.

Hmm... fighter on even levels and rogue on odd levels. Get all the feats and all the sneak attack!

[Necroticplague]

Gaining higher level abilities without lower level ones sounds like it would create rules nightmares everywhere.

That being said, I would love this, if only for not having to go warblade 20 for it's capstone.

[John Longarrow]

Fighter becomes an insanely good dip if you're hungry for feats.

Hmm... fighter on even levels and rogue on odd levels. Get all the feats and all the sneak attack!

I hadn't thought of that....
Fighter / Fighter / Warblade / Fighter / Warblade / etc...

You wind up with ALL the fighter feats and a boat load of maneuvers. Plus most of the Warblades goodies kick in on odd levels to! 4 of the ones you'd get would be bonus feats... Hehehe...

[torrasque666]

I hadn't thought of that....
Fighter / Fighter / Warblade / Fighter / Warblade / etc...

You wind up with ALL the fighter feats and a boat load of maneuvers. Plus most of the Warblades goodies kick in on odd levels to! 4 of the ones you'd get would be bonus feats... Hehehe...
Well, you'd wind up with no more maneuvers than you would if you just did Fighter X/Warblade Y normally.


And part of it was also that since Prestiging is such a common thing, I wanted to make it so you could actually Prestige out and then come back for a capstone or an ability that you wanted.

[Hal0Badger]

Game turns into a dip-fest actually. Especially if it works for PRC's as well.

[torrasque666]

Game turns into a dip-fest actually. Especially if it works for PRC's as well.
Does not, hence the specification of base classes. And besides, Casters aren't going to dip, they need their to keep their spells current. Initiators might dip, but they could do that kinda well already. Anyone who is in a class that relies on their class level for variables isn't going to dip anymore than they would, as those are tied to the actual number of class levels in this. Incarnum users might dip, but then it gets wonkey if they have unlocked chakra binds to use but don't have the melds, or essentia, or available binds.

If you take prestige classes and then go back to a base class, the option remains so Base 5/PrC10/Base 1 could either get the Base 6 or Base 16 abilities. This would not allow you to get the abilities that are on Base Class levels 6-15 if you take the Base 16 option.

[Jay R]

As documented above, this would add a huge number of unplanned and overpowered builds.

You could decide that you wanted to design a game that allowed this, and build the classes to prevent that (all the juicy specials come on levels 4, 8, 12, for instance).

But allowing this when the classes weren't built for it is just opening up a whole new way to break the game.

[Troacctid]

This is kind of how hybrid characters work in 4th Edition.

[torrasque666]

So from what I've managed to gather, this idea would cause of lot of complications necessitating DM adjucation on a lot of odd rules quirks, but would otherwise be relatively balanced?

[ATHATH]

@Title: Affect, not effect

[Necroticplague]

So from what I've managed to gather, this idea would cause of lot of complications necessitating DM adjucation on a lot of odd rules quirks, but would otherwise be relatively balanced?

Depends on how balanced the "titles" are, relative to both each other, and what it costs to meet them, and how difficult they are to obtain. It could end up making things worse if the cost:benefit ratio for the titles are off.

[torrasque666]

Depends on how balanced the "titles" are, relative to both each other, and what it costs to meet them, and how difficult they are to obtain. It could end up making things worse if the cost:benefit ratio for the titles are off.
I'm not referring to the Hybrid Classes exactly, but my proposed "adjustment"

[Necroticplague]

I'm not referring to the Hybrid Classes exactly, but my proposed "adjustment"

Crap, sorry, wrong thread. Starting to mix up my conversations.

Anyway, I can't think of any horrific abuses off the top of my head. It probably does raise the overall power level a bit (because now you can always grab level-appropriate abilities, instead of being stuck with weak ones), but I can't think of anything horrifically broken, given the stated limitations.

[Jay R]

So from what I've managed to gather, this idea would cause of lot of complications necessitating DM adjucation on a lot of odd rules quirks, but would otherwise be relatively balanced?

Relative to what? This edition has explicitly balanced Challenge Ratings. A rules change that makes PCs more powerful while not affecting most monsters produces an inherently unbalanced game.

[torrasque666]

Relative to what? This edition has explicitly balanced Challenge Ratings. A rules change that makes PCs more powerful while not affecting most monsters produces an inherently unbalanced game.
Relative to other classes. As I mentioned above, most users of subsystems such as magic or psionics or even incarnum will probably not take as much advantage of these, as their subsystems won't continue advancing through this manner. But a fighters, rogues, martial adepts (who were already pretty free to multiclass), or any other non- or partial caster (as in at most they get 5ths) might still be interested in using this to get higher level abilities while not having to slave through a class they only wanted to dip in.

Plus, as most everyone has noticed, CR is not necessarily balanced. An Adult Black Dragon is not the same difficulty as an Elder Water Elemental.