Making high level D&D more fluid and freeform (specially encounters)

[BartonBlackburn]

I've been playing D&D 3.5 for a lot of years, but it seems that each session I'm feeling more dissatisfied with the combat system, specially at high levels (we are a 7 players group, between lvl 14 and 17). I feel combat stiff and slow and very mechanical, specially at high levels where a fight might take hours and eat most of the session playtime. Having read other systems like Dungeon Worlds (without initiative) isn't helping, just pouring some salt on the wound.

The Initiative and rounds are for me great momentum killers, specially when you play in a group with 6 or 7 players. And while everyone wants a fight, there is a moment when everyone is distracted except in his round praying the gods to finish it after it gets too long.I'm feeling that at those levels combats are boring. Large HD creatures would make the combat eternal, and it makes the adventures like an never ending arms race where you need to throw more and more powerful enemies, which doesn't make sense at all: where were those insanely powerful enemies before? Now that they are lvl 17 the whole world has scaled up their level?

Another existential doubt is about narration vs "gamist" play. My players, all lifetime friends (we play together since high-school), are more from the "gamist" type. They feel grounded with the numbers and accountability of a D&D combat. That makes that everything should be straight from the manual or they will complain, the kind of "It took me a lot of time and study to make this cleric with this feat and this ability and this x and now you throw some situation where I can't do anything because it doesn't exist in the books!" argument. Obviously the situation is quite more sensitive with the casters than the non-casters. So you know, anything that resembles a bit of narrative or where the standard bonuses don't apply for having a desired effect is considered DM cheat.

Have you experienced this kinds of feeling before? How do you handle it?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You sound like you might be getting a bit burnt out on DMing? If that's the case, stepping back and letting someone else run things might help.

You also might look into actually playing some of those other systems you mentioned. There are plenty out there that will play out way faster than D&D without going full-on narrativeist like Fate or Dungeon World. Say... Savage Worlds, or Mutants and Masterminds.

[Necroticplague]

Increase the optimization level. Don't use tough creatures, use creatures with a very good chance of OHKO'ing someone, that are also pretty easy to OHKO. That way, combat is over is maybe 3 rounds of game time, and maybe 15 minutes of real time because the only realistically feasible actions are fairly obvious. Of course, if they aren't at the op-level for rocket tag, then there will be a short period where they die a whole not while they try and figure the new arms race out. Then, they'll figure it out, everyone will kill everyone in one hit, only accuracy and initiative will matter, and fights will be fairly quick affairs.

[BartonBlackburn]

@Grod: Actually I'm not burn of DMing, we are regulary rotating the DM so each of us can both play and create adventures. I will take a look at those systems that you mention. Thanks!!!!

@Necroticplague: Interesting sugestions. I guess I got it, but what does OHKO stand for?

[Necroticplague]

@Grod: Actually I'm not burn of DMing, we are regulary rotating the DM so each of us can both play and create adventures. I will take a look at those systems that you mention. Thanks!!!!

@Necroticplague: Interesting sugestions. I guess I got it, but what does OHKO stand for?

OHKO is short for One Hit KnockOut. I use it instead of OHK (One Hit Kill) because Petrifying someone or Paralyzing them or actually knocking them out has much the same effect as killing them (since, once everyone is disabled, coup-de-graces all around).

[BartonBlackburn]

OHKO is short for One Hit KnockOut.
Excelent! Thanks! Can you give me an example of a creature or build for that? The party is pretty optimized, specially the casters and the tank.

[Necroticplague]

Excelent! Thanks! Can you give me an example of a creature or build for that? The party is pretty optimized, specially the casters and the tank.

Medusa, Basilisk, were-nifern, any sufficiently powerful variation of Mailman or Ubercharger (Including Centaur with Valorous Lance or Thri-kreen Battle Jump based build), any form of Save-or-die spell(or one that simply gets rid of them, like Banishment to remove them from the encounter). A half-fiend of a 'meatshield' (high amount of HD, low special abilities) type creature can likely one-shot most of them with its Blasphemy . Look at a lot of high-level monster entries, a pretty good amount have an SoD or two on their list. Drowned and Adamantine Clockwork Horrors are both pretty good. Fiend of Possession or Ghosts can essentially use their ability to possess people like one, as the ensuing possession would very likely end with the posessed's death unless they saw it coming.

[BartonBlackburn]

Great!! Thanks!

[Bronk]

The Initiative and rounds are for me great momentum killers, specially when you play in a group with 6 or 7 players. And while everyone wants a fight, there is a moment when everyone is distracted except in his round praying the gods to finish it after it gets too long.I'm feeling that at those levels combats are boring. Large HD creatures would make the combat eternal, and it makes the adventures like an never ending arms race where you need to throw more and more powerful enemies, which doesn't make sense at all: where were those insanely powerful enemies before? Now that they are lvl 17 the whole world has scaled up their level?

There are a lot of ways to work around this.

If the fights are bogging down and the PCs are winning, some or all of the NPCs can flee. If the NPCs are winning, suggest the PCs either flee or figure out a better way to deal with the problem (even if you have to gently remind them of a class feature or plot point).

Some of the minions can turn out to be effective for what they're hired for, but fairly weak in a fight... someone that can be taken down in one really satisfying combat round.

Or, if they take the most powerful guy down first, handwave the rest of the combat. You could say, "You spend the next 15 minutes mopping up the demoralized remnants", or have the remaining mooks scatter and see if anyone bothers chasing or tracking them down.

Or, the players might come up with a strategy you deem really effective or cool... basically, so epic that if they pull it off, there's a great feeling of accomplishment but very little actual battle.

[Idea Man]

I had stepped away from a campaign I was running a year ago because of a lot of the same problems (but my excuse/reason was they hadn't let me play for about...10 years.). Foolishly, I have agreed to start running again.

On my side, I keep the mooks simple; AC, HP, saves, SR, attack bonus, damage, essential feats and skills, spells ready, spells cast, and conditional modifiers (if any). Index cards or a reference sheet are your friends. Try to make larger fights a battle of groups. Bosses and henchmen can have a bit more fluff, but you won't need most of it in a fight.

For my players, I make sure they understand I'm not waiting forever for them to decide what to do. They should be following the combat well enough to at least ask intelligent, clarifying questions. If they don't ask about anything, and they dither and delay for too long (I go about 30 seconds), I count down with my fingers so they can all see; I get to zero, they lose their turn (I think counting down out loud is distracting). They, pretty quickly, start watching what's going on. As a side note: I only do this when they get sloppy and bogged down. I don't want the game to feel like a timed test.

[John Longarrow]

For my players, I make sure they understand I'm not waiting forever for them to decide what to do. They should be following the combat well enough to at least ask intelligent, clarifying questions. If they don't ask about anything, and they dither and delay for too long (I go about 30 seconds), I count down with my fingers so they can all see; I get to zero, they lose their turn (I think counting down out loud is distracting). They, pretty quickly, start watching what's going on. As a side note: I only do this when they get sloppy and bogged down. I don't want the game to feel like a timed test.

I've had that problem to. Got bad enough that we had to ban electronic devices at the game table. The same guy who never seemed to know what was going on was also the one playing games on his phone/surfing on his laptop while everyone else was taking their turns. After he had to pay more attention during combat he started being more of a party asset.

BartonBlackburn

Last really fun game I was in that got to those levels, the party spent a LOT more time doing magic recon/info gathering than fighting. Most fights were us popping in and ganking something. Took hours to set up, but the fights were brutally short.

[Itsjustsoup.com]

The Jamal Solution.

I have a player in my Sunday game named Jamal. He plays a cleric. He will survey the combat round with much intent, and when it is turn...

He will take 5 minutes to make a decision.

Rescind that decision, then...

Start a 10 minute conversation about hypothetical actions & Results...

Spent 5 minutes consulting his spells while the table is excited about his next move.

Realize that he does not have that spell memorized, or used it earlier,

Then pull out and load his sling.

Total Time per turn: 25 minutes.

You'd think I wouldnt fall for it by now but he is so creative that it sneaks right by me everytime.

Solution

30 second sand timer. Two of them. On for Jamal, and one so the Next guy doesn't get any extra seconds.
1 sentence per free action. 1 sentence per round.

When I pull the sand timer out after noticing people are taking waay too long with their turns, I threaten to "Jamal" them or start "Jamaling" the table, then everything soon speeds up.

Result

Combat speeds up, people make dumb mistakes like they do in real life, monsters & players overshoot. And yes, I'm all agree about ohok monsters.
But it does sound like your pretty burned out, you might need to up the voltage.