Real-Life "Modern" Bows and Archery in DnD

[DiceDiceBaby]

Greetings, all! :smallsmile:

I've always been fond of the Archer archetype and I sat down to create a character who I am very happy with.

Now, part of this character's fluff is that he's very particular with weapons, which is why I did a bit of research in archery, bows and arrows. I suddenly realized that I might be asking for a bit much when I start swapping my shortbow for a longbow, and ask the DM if I can look for a tinker to create something closer to "modern" bows when I decide to upgrade.

That said, now I'll include some bow jargon I got online (I'm not an archer myself, but having served in a military unit, I'm something of a ballistics fan). Basically, I want to know what acceptable tech level a campaign would have to be to allow for the following bows to exist (and be realistically craftable) in that world (for extra fluff, I'm considering having my character proficient in Smith's Tools so that he can craft his own bows and arrows):

Shortbow - Should be available in any DnD setting; it's in the PHB
Longbow - As with the shortbow, getting one of these should be no issue
Recurve bow - Should be theoretically available in a low-tech level medieval fantasy setting, as it uses physics
Composite bow - As with the recurve bow, this should also be available, by definition it just uses a reinforced riser
Takedown bow - Would probably not exist in anything but a higher tech-level medieval fantasy setting
Compound bow - Would likely not exist in anything but a fantasy setting that allows modern weaponry, like guns

TL;DR - What is the most advanced kind of bow you'd tolerate in your DnD games? Think of this as a thread about realistic firearms in fantasy, only with "mechanical" bows instead of guns. :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja_Prawn]

TL;DR - What is the most advanced kind of bow you'd tolerate in your DnD games?

Um... depends on the tech level of the game? :smalltongue:

One thing I will say is that I'd probably stat a recurve bow the same as the PHB longbow - there isn't enough granularity in the system to differentiate them.

[DiceDiceBaby]

Um... depends on the tech level of the game? :smalltongue:

One thing I will say is that I'd probably stat a recurve bow the same as the PHB longbow - there isn't enough granularity in the system to differentiate them.

To be perfectly honest, I'd be happy with that. My character is a sniper, so it makes little thematic sense to have him sneaking around carrying a longbow that exceeds his height, when he could have a smaller recurve bow that would have the same stats, but be considerably easier to carry.

As for tech level, again, that's something I want a general opinion on. Would it be believable to be able to, say, create a modern compound bow (made of metal, with gears and everything) even in a lowtech fantasy setting? This is more a question of fluff rather than mechanics; I'd be content with having a longbow's stats but with a small and elegant frame, as long as it can be somewhat justified within the story without sounding too "modern". Similarly, would crafting a rifle or other firearm be possible in a low-tech setting? There seems to be stats for "exotic" weapons (i.e. firearms) if I search the net, but again, I'm looking for fluff reasons to justify them.

While we're on the topic of mechanics, I read that according to the rules, using a shield with a bow is impossible. In real life, archers have various arm guards that might be flavored into shields if the DM allows it (maybe a +1 AC instead of +2?) without limiting their ability to fire an arrow. Any thoughts on this as fluff?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of PCs inventing modern gear in low-tech settings. On the other hand, I'd say that the 'default' setting is more advanced than that. Gunpowder was revealed to mortals in the FR in 1358, and tinker gnomes can reach almost steampunk levels in that setting. Eberron is even more advanced, by default. Modern bows wouldn't be completely out of the question in either of them.

I feel that not allowing archers to use a shield is a deliberate decision made for balance reasons, so I'd be hesitant to go back on that.

[DiceDiceBaby]

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of PCs inventing modern gear in low-tech settings. On the other hand, I'd say that the 'default' setting is more advanced than that. Gunpowder was revealed to mortals in the FR in 1358, and tinker gnomes can reach almost steampunk levels in that setting. Eberron is even more advanced, by default. Modern bows wouldn't be completely out of the question in either of them.

I feel that not allowing archers to use a shield is a deliberate decision made for balance reasons, so I'd be hesitant to go back on that.

Thank you for this, Ninja_Prawn! I appreciate your fair opinion, including your personal views on the matter. :smallsmile:

[JackPhoenix]

3.5 had composite short- and long- bows, with composite longbow being usable from horse, unlike regular longbow (otherwise almost the same, more expensive and 10 feet longer range). Otherwise, what bow you're using is fluff if it fits into either short- (wooden self bows, likely) or longbow (I guess more advanced bows, recurves and composites, go there) category.

That Eberron is more advanced is a common misconception. It's certainly more advanced magically, though the magic replaces technology...I suspect FR gnomes are more "high tech" then anything in Eberron. In Eberron, you wouldn't have better bow, you would have normal bow enchanted to work better. There was a mention of some advanced siege weapons...bombards, I think...used in battle in Forge of War, but no details, Keith Baker didn't work on that one, and it's likely they don't use gunpowder, but either shoot spells or works as magical railgun.

[qechua]

So, as an archer, but not a history buff, I'll wade in a here.

Firstly, the main advantage of a recurve over a short/longbow is efficiency. Recurves gain efficiency by concentrating on flexing the limb tips (the extremities of the bow, where the string interfaces), rather than the whole limb. I've been told, although haven't confirmed myself, that a modern 40# recurve and a well made 50# longbow will be roughly equivalent in power. As such, I'd want to represent this as lowered strength requirements for the same range/damage. Since 5e has no strength requirement for bows, I'd probably go down having it as a fluff 'advantage' (it looks well made and/or exotic, so makes people respect you more as a professional). A recurve being shorter than a longbow for the same performance would be entirely practical as well.

Secondly, compound bows work on mechanical advantage. There aren't any gears involved, only cams and cables. While a non-compound will increase in draw weight as the draw length increases, compounds go quickly to a large draw weight, stay there, then drop down at the end of the draw length. This means both more aiming time at full draw (because of lowered draw weight) and higher power (because the bow stays at peak weight longer during the release). The main things holding a compound back from a fantasy point of view are the requisite understanding of physics to find the mechanical advantage to be gained, and (probably more importantly) precision engineering to get the components to fit correctly and work together, since a poorly constructed/maintained/operated compound is an accident waiting to happen, and once one does happen, it's a lot of work to get it shootable safely again, if ever. If I have, say, a dry loose with a recurve (releasing the string without an arrow present), it'll take me about 5 minutes to check the bow over. A compound? I'm looking at that amount of time just to de-string it in order to check it over, and probably an hour or so beyond that. I can't see a fantasy setting, even a magic low one, inventing one to be honest, it's too much work for not enough gain, particularly if firearms are a thing.

Finally, take down bows are feasible, but slightly more difficult to make than longbows/recurves. You wouldn't have interchangeable limbs (ala modern recurves), but a specific riser (the handle bit in the middle)/limb (the bits top and bottom which do the work) combination is possible, as long as you have something strong enough to hold the riser/limbs together. Again, it's a lot of hassle for not much gain (most fantasy settings I've played in, weapons can be openly carried), so I don't see it being invented outside of very specific circumstances.

Also, on a pedantic level

fire an arrow

You fire a gun, you shoot (or loose) an arrow.

[Joe the Rat]

I feel that not allowing archers to use a shield is a deliberate decision made for balance reasons, so I'd be hesitant to go back on that.

You could take a page from the crossbowman and get a pavise. A shield with a spike or support so you can stand it up and shoot from behind it. You'd get half cover (same as if you were bearing a shield) but you lose mobility. Or hide behind the Paladin. Either works, really.

[JackPhoenix]

You could take a page from the crossbowman and get a pavise. A shield with a spike or support so you can stand it up and shoot from behind it. You'd get half cover (same as if you were bearing a shield) but you lose mobility. Or hide behind the Paladin. Either works, really.

Fun fact: In 3.5, you could've used buckler without any penalty with ranged weapons. Though 5e have only one general "shield" coveing everything from buckler to tower shield.

[Taejang]

<everything>
As an archer and history buff, I agree with all of qechua's post. I'd go for a recurve, as that should be available, practical, and nice for fluff.


Fun fact: In 3.5, you could've used buckler without any penalty with ranged weapons. Though 5e have only one general "shield" coveing everything from buckler to tower shield.
The only shield a real life archer can use while maintaining mobility would indeed be a buckler. As a DM, I'd personally allow it at a +1 to AC. Because the game has no buckler by default, your DM can require you to have it custom made, thus making it similar in cost and accessibility to an uncommon magical item in 5e (except without the magic, obviously). As there are plenty of +1 AC items and character abilities in 5e, it shouldn't be unbalanced unless you are stacking abilities. As there aren't many bucklers around, you won't find an already enchanted one, so any further improvements would have to come from your pocket as a special request to a wizard, thus great cost and time requirements to enchant it.

Another possible consideration would be modern arrow design. Tips, fletchings, and shafts have all changed in subtle yet important ways over the years. You could do a little research into tip designs and see about getting a +1 to attack rolls and/or damage, at the cost of limited access to these special custom-made arrows.

[Itsjustsoup.com]

I think a composite bow, when masterwork or magical with Str enhanced, would look like the fantasy equivalent (moving parts, pulleys, etc) of a modern bow.

[JackPhoenix]

I think a composite bow, when masterwork or magical with Str enhanced, would look like the fantasy equivalent (moving parts, pulleys, etc) of a modern bow.

Well, there are no masterwork or str-based bows in 5e. And I don't think they would look the same...you don't need gears etc., when you have magic that ignores the laws of physics whenever you want it to.

[Cybren]

The only shield a real life archer can use while maintaining mobility would indeed be a buckler.

Seems unlikely, given that buckles are held in the fist

[Taejang]

I think a composite bow, when masterwork or magical with Str enhanced, would look like the fantasy equivalent (moving parts, pulleys, etc) of a modern bow.
I think you mean compound bow. Composite just means it is made of multiple materials, and may or may not have pulleys.

[Blacky the Blackball]

TL;DR - What is the most advanced kind of bow you'd tolerate in your DnD games? Think of this as a thread about realistic firearms in fantasy, only with "mechanical" bows instead of guns. :smallbiggrin:

In my campaign, it would be:

"You can have a bow. The stats are in the book. It's up to you whether you describe it as a "self bow", "composite bow", "long bow", compound bow" or even a "Wookie bowcaster". Your description doesn't alter its stats, only its look."