Discrepancy In the MM, DMG, and PHB...

[DracoKnight]

So, the Gargoyle statblock has something in it that I found utterly confusing:


Damage Resistances bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons that aren't adamantine

So, curious about how Adamantine weapons work, I went to the DMG, looking under the magic items listings, because Adamantine Armor is a magic item. Finding nothing, I recalled how the PHB is where the rules for silvered weapons are found. So after scouring the PHB I've come up with NOTHING. Has there been an official ruling/errata on this? And if not, what do my fellow forum-members rule for how Adamantine weapons work?

[SharkForce]

just to cover all your bases, i recommend you stuff a mid-level monk into a suit of adamantine full plate and have a barbarian beat the gargoyles to death with it.

(more helpfully, no there are no adamantine weapons yet, and if they did count as magical weapons then you wouldn't need them to be adamantine :P )

[McNinja]

So, the Gargoyle statblock has something in it that I found utterly confusing:



So, curious about how Adamantine weapons work, I went to the DMG, looking under the magic items listings, because Adamantine Armor is a magic item. Finding nothing, I recalled how the PHB is where the rules for silvered weapons are found. So after scouring the PHB I've come up with NOTHING. Has there been an official ruling/errata on this? And if not, what do my fellow forum-members rule for how Adamantine weapons work?What that means is that there are two types of weapons that bypass the gargoyle's resistances: magic weapons, and non-magical adamantine weapons. It's strangely written, but I think the Iron Golem has the same resistances.

If the weapon is both magical AND adamantine, the gargoyle is ****ed.

[DracoKnight]

What that means is that there are two types of weapons that bypass the gargoyle's resistances: magic weapons, and non-magical adamantine weapons.

Yes. I get this. However, how do you acquire adamantine weapons? How would they work? I.E., Adamantine Armor stops crits, do Adamantine Weapons crit more often?

There's no official rule that I could find :smalltongue:

[JackPhoenix]

Yes. I get this. However, how do you acquire adamantine weapons? How would they work? I.E., Adamantine Armor stops crits, do Adamantine Weapons crit more often?

There's no official rule that I could find :smalltongue:

Oficially, adamantine weapons don't exist...that's likely an oversight by WotC. They work by ignoring the damage resistance and immunity of golems and other creatures whose damage resistance/immunity is overcomed by adamantine :smallcool:

[Coffee_Dragon]

You should probably treat materials like other descriptors in the game that have no specific rules but may be specified elsewhere to interact with something in some way, like damage and creature types. For instance, some weapons are assumed to normally be made of wood and would logically overcome resistance to non-wooden weapons, but there's no special rule for wood.

(And I would assume there can very well be adamantine weapons in the world despite none being described yet, just as there should be weapons of obsidian, bronze etc.)

[McNinja]

Yes. I get this. However, how do you acquire adamantine weapons? How would they work? I.E., Adamantine Armor stops crits, do Adamantine Weapons crit more often?

There's no official rule that I could find :smalltongue:
It is weird that there's nothing official. I suppose they expect you to make something up? It wouldn't be too hard to come up with something - it's a metal that is better than every other metal - so for an Adamantine weapon I'd either make it a non-magical sword/axe/warhammer of sharpness or increase the crit range to 18-20.

[Lonely Tylenol]

"Adamantine" is probably meant to be "silvered". In previous editions, adamantine was the special weapon material which overcame most forms of DR, but in this game, resistance was mostly narrowed to "special material? Y/N?"... For which silvered is the catch-all special material. Sounds like a much smaller version of the dawizard gaffe.

[JackPhoenix]

It is weird that there's nothing official. I suppose they expect you to make something up? It wouldn't be too hard to come up with something - it's a metal that is better than every other metal - so for an Adamantine weapon I'd either make it a non-magical sword/axe/warhammer of sharpness or increase the crit range to 18-20.

I wouldn't increased the crit range, that's high level Champion Fighter gig. However, I would allow it to ignore resistances of objects and give an advantage on attacking objects (object AC is due to material hardness)

[AbyssStalker]

I wouldn't increased the crit range, that's high level Champion Fighter gig. However, I would allow it to ignore resistances of objects and give an advantage on attacking objects (object AC is due to material hardness)

I wouldn't put a crit increase of 1 out of the question though, a fighter could wield the adamantine weapon and benefit from both crit range increases, it would probably make that ability more prevalent too, which I have seen people complain about on the forums.

[ruy343]

For the record, any entry that says that a weapon must be magical/adamantine I read as "either" rather than "both".

Now, seeing as the weapon is supposed to be non-magical, I would rule that it doesn't gain any other properties, such as increased crit range, bonuses to attack/damage, etc., since as that's the domain of magic items, for the most part. If you want to enchant the item with a +1 bonus or something, that's fine.

That said, because of its ability to bypass damage resistance, it should be available, though the crafting methods involved should be intense. I don't know the cost for silvering a weapon offhand, since I'm AFB, but I would say that an adamantine weapon should cost somewhere between 5-10x the cost of a silvered non magical weapon, and that you might find one on the DM encounter tables as an alternative to other "uncommon" magical items (even though it's not magical). This would be a good way to replace some "broken" items from that list, like the elvish cloak for example - don't argue that one on this thread.

The material itself, adamantine, is likely magical (or magically forged), even if it doesn't grant a combat bonus. However, what would make an adamantine sword cool is the fact that it's unbreakable - feel free to use it to stab into walls for support or dig holes or test the strength of a wall against it - no questions asked. That can be fun (and promote creativity) in its own right and can make it more memorable than a generic +1 longsword you find.

[AbyssStalker]

The material itself, adamantine, is likely magical (or magically forged), even if it doesn't grant a combat bonus. However, what would make an adamantine sword cool is the fact that it's unbreakable - feel free to use it to stab into walls for support or dig holes or test the strength of a wall against it - no questions asked. That can be fun (and promote creativity) in its own right and can make it more memorable than a generic +1 longsword you find.

Being nigh un-breakable is already part of the domain of a magic item...

[ruy343]

Being nigh un-breakable is already part of the domain of a magic item...

Indeed. However, I wouldn't attribute any other combat bonus to it: it doesn't need to be a +1 weapon since it's cool (and useful) enough on its own.

[Daishain]

I'd just assume it works the same way silvered weapons do. There's nothing inherently special about it, you just get to go 'haha, nope!' when something is used to weapons bouncing off of its hide.

Adamantine in general is just supposed to be a higher quality metal. Think of its use as being like swapping iron out for damascus steel.

P.S. Aside from the possibility of magic being required for the forging process (or just the convenience of listing hard to get items together), there doesn't seem to be a reason for adamantine or mithral arms and armor to be included with magic items. They were not inherently considered magical in previous editions, and this edition doesn't seem to have expressly changed that.

[AbyssStalker]

I'd just assume it works the same way silvered weapons do. There's nothing inherently special about it, you just get to go 'haha, nope!' when something is used to weapons bouncing off of its hide.

Adamantine in general is just supposed to be a higher quality metal. Think of its use as being like swapping iron out for damascus steel.

Also remember that the blade is just "coated" with silver, not actually silver itself. It would make no sense for silver to give any legitimate bonuses other than a superstitious-like penetration of DR, as silver isn't a metal that is good for arms or armor to be made from, where-as adamantine would be very useful as a base material to make arms with. Also remember that in all the tales with a special kind of steel the blades (or other weapons, but typically blades, particularly swords) often have some special attribute, even if it is just that it keeps a far sharper edge than a normal blade.


Indeed. However, I wouldn't attribute any other combat bonus to it: it doesn't need to be a +1 weapon since it's cool (and useful) enough on its own.

I might agree, but they already added an effect to adamantine armor that changes how crits operate (In normal cases completely removes them, I can't remember the thread but I suggested that it should instead reduce the crit range by 1). If they want to go that route it is nonsensical to give weapons made from the material no special bonus (other than durability). I think it would make perfect sense for adamantine armor to reduce the crit range by one, and adamantine weapons to increase it by one, there-by canceling each other out should they meet in combat, although I don't think either should be considered inherently magical (even though the armor apparently is).

[JackPhoenix]

Also remember that the blade is just "coated" with silver, not actually silver itself. It would make no sense for silver to give any legitimate bonuses other than a superstitious-like penetration of DR, as silver isn't a metal that is good for arms or armor to be made from, where-as adamantine would be very useful as a base material to make arms with. Also remember that in all the tales with a special kind of steel the blades (or other weapons, but typically blades, particularly swords) often have some special attribute, even if it is just that it keeps a far sharper edge than a normal blade.



I might agree, but they already added an effect to adamantine armor that changes how crits operate (In normal cases completely removes them, I can't remember the thread but I suggested that it should instead reduce the crit range by 1). If they want to go that route it is nonsensical to give weapons made from the material no special bonus (other than durability). I think it would make perfect sense for adamantine armor to reduce the crit range by one, and adamantine weapons to increase it by one, there-by canceling each other out should they meet in combat, although I don't think either should be considered inherently magical (even though the armor apparently is).

Having an armor made from night-indestructible material is much better then having the weapon made from same, though, unless some magic is involved... sure, adamantine sword won't dull in battle, but you'll sharpen the steel sword too, it just won't last that long and you have to repeat the process...it doesn't have to be inheritely sharper then steel, and you wouldn't be able to sharpen it even if you wanted to. It won't be flexible as steel sword, but then, it doesn't have to be...it won't break...which is sort of a problem with armor, while adamantine armor can't be bent or pierced, it won't absorb energy that much, as it won't be spent on deforming the material. Blunt adamantine weapons would be a little better thanks to the same, though...even if it's not any denser then steel, you'll spend less energy on the weapon's material deformation. It would be awesome for tools, though... picks, saws, crowbars... Adamantine bullets would be less effective...they would be great at piercing armor, but they won't deform and cause as big damage in target...you'll have problem with overpenetration. I'm not sure how it translates into arrows, I guess it will be fine there, maybe it would make the shaft more likely to break, as the arrowhead won't absorb the energy of impact that well

[AbyssStalker]

...

True on all counts, but in the case of armor it (in the limited capacity it can) makes sense for it to help resist against crits, it wouldn't absorb the shock of a blow very much, but that is another reason why padding is worn under armor (other than chafing). It makes sense to me in that I picture a crit as piercing through the armor and hitting a very vulnerable spot underneath, not even letting the armor take much of the blow in the slightest, and of course having nigh-indestructible armor would help prevent that.

Yeah, it's true that the material doesn't "have" to be sharper, but swords are not made to be as sharp as possible so that they don't break or dull easily (which the adamantine would solve), I do imagine at any rate it would have far less "give" (not quite sure on the legitimate name for a sword's bend as it strikes) than the standard sword, allowing it to pierce armor in a greater capacity.

I still think that it would be easy and satisfying to give a -1/+1 crit range to adamantine armor/weapons, both in fluff terms and balance terms. It would make the players happy even if you have to hand-wave over a few facts should your players be knowledgeable about weapons and arms, but from what I've seen that is rare.

[JackPhoenix]

True on all counts, but in the case of armor it (in the limited capacity it can) makes sense for it to help resist against crits, it wouldn't absorb the shock of a blow very much, but that is another reason why padding is worn under armor (other than chafing). It makes sense to me in that I picture a crit as piercing through the armor and hitting a very vulnerable spot underneath, not even letting the armor take much of the blow in the slightest, and of course having nigh-indestructible armor would help prevent that.

You know, I haven't even realised that, but in my recent game, party cleric got critted by an orc warchief's greataxe...the crit was described as the force of hit denting her breastplate, causing bruises and few cracked ribs (it got her under 50% hp, but not out of the fight). Adamantine armor would have prevented that, and while it wouldn't absorb the energy of the impact as well, it would transfer the energy to her body over the whole area of the armor instead at one specific point.

[Joe the Rat]

Adamantine weapons are mentioned in passing in the SCAG setting content - again, without any actual rules (Interestingly, described as being silvered as well).

My first thought would be to have them bypass all damage resistance... but then that would be a property of the material, and would not need to be called out on monster listings. Plus that could really mess with Barbarians (their resistance is not affected by magical or material properties), and Blade Ward users (who need all the help they can get, bless their hearts).

Unbreakable (or virtually so) is a good option - I'd need to find the attacking objects rules again. immunity where there is normally resistance, resistance where there is normally no reduction, bypassed by adamantine weapons.

Another possibility would be something akin to the seige monster property: It does double damage to structures, or more usefully for a small-to-large sized creature, inanimate objects.

[DanyBallon]

Why not simply say that adamantine weapons cost X (at least 100) more gp than base weapon and can never be dented, they still may break, but won't suffer normal wear. This is a simple and elegant solution that may not lead to some OP combo that we haven't thought.

[AbyssStalker]

Why not simply say that adamantine weapons cost X (at least 100) more gp than base weapon and can never be dented, they still may break, but won't suffer normal wear. This is a simple and elegant solution that may not lead to some OP combo that we haven't thought.

Eh, while I agree on price (if in an area well supplied with the metal) I think that an adamantine weapon should receive a thematically similar mechanical bonus as the armor, and a +1 to critical hit range is a neat bonus but far less than what the adamantine armor naturally gives you RAW (outright immunity to crit), the worst that I can see happening is a Half-orc fighter getting his hands on one, which still isn't a big deal.

Even though I run a high magic setting, I also don't allow adamantine to be so abundant that it is just available in the capacity that you could build an OP combo around it. I think it's placement in the magic item section is somewhat fitting if you consider it in terms of rarity that magic items have in this addition (although I again don't think it should be inherently magical)

[DanyBallon]

Eh, while I agree on price (if in an area well supplied with the metal) I think that an adamantine weapon should receive a thematically similar mechanical bonus as the armor, and a +1 to critical hit range is a neat bonus but far less than what the adamantine armor naturally gives you RAW (outright immunity to crit), the worst that I can see happening is a Half-orc fighter getting his hands on one, which still isn't a big deal.

Even though I run a high magic setting, I also don't allow adamantine to be so abundant that it is just available in the capacity that you could build an OP combo around it. I think it's placement in the magic item section is somewhat fitting if you consider it in terms of rarity that magic items have in this addition (although I again don't think it should be inherently magical)

The main advantage od adamantine weapon is that it can overcome some damage resistance (resistance to non-adamantine BSP weapon), sure there is not that much creature that with such resistance, but still it's on par with magic item against those creatures. Adamantine armor don't give an extra AC point if I remember well (afb now), hence the critical hit immunity. It doesn't prevent you from damage, just from suffering the extra damage.