3.5 Weird Houserule Idea

[Devigor]

So, I'll likely never do this, but I find it to be an interesting theoretical exercise, spawned by another recent thread. It is taking the hybrid class mechanic from 4e and moving it to 3e, in a way that is even in power with other standard characters.

This completely demolishes the current setup of game balance. The idea is to remove all prestige classes from the game (and all non-core material of any kind, to boot); then, you create three special "titles" for each combination of two classes.

Examples shamelessly reconfigured from existing core material:
• Eldritch... Soldier (Requires 2 levels of Fighter and 3 of Wizard)/Squire (4 levels of Fighter and 5 of Wizard)/Knight (8 levels of Fighter and 9 of Wizard) unlocks 1/2/3 extra bonus feats that are NOT restricted to either bonus feat list and grants a benefit to using spells based on specialization for each "title" gained.
• Horizon... Walker (Requires 3 levels of Ranger and 2 of Fighter)/Wanderer (6 levels of Ranger and 3 of Fighter)/Wayfarer (11 levels of Ranger and 6 of Fighter) unlocks one of each of the original Horizon Walker choices (normal or planar, since only three will be gained) for each "title", and also grants free weapon focus and specialization, then greater weapon focus and specialization, then something else to benefit the combination (I dunno, maybe make their favored enemy bonuses add to attack rolls as well as damage rolls, for the last one?).

I just ruminate on the potential of keeping balance relatively well with this... Don't grant any "titles" to someone that sticks at full levels in a caster class, since they'll probably be more powerful anyway. Some more ideas:
• Arcane Archer (fighter/sorcerer) allows you to use a single spell slot to deliver multiple spells in a round due to each piece of ammo in a full attack carrying a spell previously stored or to spontaneously channel spell slots to add enhancements to a ranged weapon...
• Archmage (sorcerer/wizard) lets you do twisty spell thingies like the original...
• Assassin (bard/rogue) grants a death attack on every attack for one round, after studying an enemy for one round...
• Blackguard (paladin/rogue) switches the paladin steed to a fiendish one, combines smite and sneak attack to work against any living target at all times, and improves spells and rebuke undead...
• Dragon Disciple (monk/sorcerer) lets you be a chaotic multiclass monk that can take further levels, grants half-dragon template, adds claw damage and monk unarmed damage, fixes the issues with monks and maybe allows sorcerers to cast spells as SLA's...
• Mystic Theurge (cleric/wizard) to give you other benefits like casting arcane spells in any armor with no penalty and using spell slots to pay for metamagic, but does NOT advance either casting progression...

These just off the top of my head, I'm sure I could come up with much more balanced and usable material if I took the time to.

I personally feel like it COULD simplify much of 3.5 and keep most of the flavor and tier structure, while allowing diversity without any complete overshadowing. Potentially.

Vote? Interesting, but no? Interesting, so yes? Boring, so no? Boring, but yes? Stupid and pointless?

[Necroticplague]

Sounds like a collision course for rules nightmaresville for multiclassers, and a whole ton of work to boot.

[Uncle Pine]

You're just removing PrCs and handing PrC-like benefits to some predetermined builds. It doesn't sound much interesting and doesn't add anything to the gameplay since you're actually removing options (tons of options, even).
And then you still have spellcasters who don't want to multiclass and simply get core spells, meaning that the current game balance you claim to have demolished is exactly the same you'd have in a core-only game (minus PrCs).

[ExLibrisMortis]

What does this system add, beyond restricting multiclassing to certain class combinations, and burning large parts of content? I don't see the attraction in a core-only game now, and you certainly don't make it more appealing by limiting so much.

3.5 is very different from 4.0, and I much prefer 3.5 (I say this as someone introduced to 4e first, who liked 4e until reading the 3.5 PHB). Instead of a 20-level class, you have 20 chunks of 1-level classes, with each level beyond the first having "Prerequisite: all the previous levels in this class". Some levels are even split in multiple sets of abilities, with ACFs and substitution levels (paladin/monk levels 1-5 are crazy). That means character building is much more freeform in 3.5, both in terms of power, and in terms of flavour. I don't think replacing the 3.5 mechanics with the 4e mechanic will have any benefit.

That said, there are these things called 'martial arts' (not to be confused with Mars' actual arts), which are tactical feat-like benefits you automatically get once you meet the prerequisites. Usually, they require something like monk 6/fighter 2/psychic warrior 2/martial rogue 2 with two flaws and the Frog God's Lane to even meet the prereqs in reasonable time, but you could make a bunch of powerful 'set bonuses' to encourage certain ability combinations. Note: ability combinations. Classes in 3.5 are strictly groupings of abilities, nothing else. It's the abilities that really carry the game.

[Devigor]

The point of this is to take away unnecessary, overly complex options.
Multiclassing wouldn't be more complex, it'd be less so (core only, not much multiclassing potential).
And it is a way to trade "zomg uberwinz wizzaarrdd" for "do I want a pure wizard or do I want those other benefits more?"
As for demolishing game balance, it makes it go from being the Tier system, to... Well, something else. Casters will always be the most powerful, and this by no means closes the gap. I'm just saying that instead of a ladder/stairway, it's more of an elevator now, since it encourages grabbing potentially higher/lower power class levels for extra goodies. It just so happens I've found a lot more broken elevators than stairs, but that's why I said this is theoretical. :)

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are no unnecessary, overly complex categories of options in this game. There may be unnecessary feats, but feats in general are useful. There may be unnecessary PrCs, but PrCs in general are useful. Removing a whole category of options completely ignores the good of that category in favour of the bad. Making the game less complex isn't going to make the game any more fun.

That trade-off already exists, you're not introducing anything new. It's called '9/10 casting PrC'. Grabbing additional classes for extra goodies is already encouraged. A barbarian 2/fighter 6/ranger 1/horizon walker 6 is already stronger than either fighter/horizon walker, barbarian/horizon walker or ranger/horizon walker.

Your idea does not change the tier system, like you claim it does. Wizards, clerics and druids are still tier 1. Monks are still tier 5. A monk 1/wizard 17 is still tier 1, and a wizard 1/monk 17 is still tier 5.

In short: some of the issues that you claim exist, do not exist; none of the issues that exist, are solved by your houserule; some of the reasons the game is fun, are removed by your houserule.

[ericgrau]

There is a simpler way I've adapted from someone else:

1. Every 2 levels in a class that is not a particular caster class gives an effective level to that class for the purposes of casting (only). These bonus levels may not exceed your real levels. Except it takes 4 levels in a non-caster class to increase a divine caster level by 1 (because divine classes are already casting/fighting hybrids). So a fighter 4 / wizard 4 / cleric 4 casts as an 8th level wizard (2+4+2) and a 7th level cleric (1+2+4). Also has 9 BAB btw. If he takes a level in druid he only casts as a druid 2, not higher, because bonus levels are capped at real levels.

2. Most prestige class abilities may be taken as feats with a level/BAB/caster-level/etc. pre-req that matches the PrC, subject to DM approval. Multiple weaker abilities might be combined into a single feat.

There, now no more pesky prestige classes to worry about, plus hybrids are stronger at low level where hybrids tend to suck. It's slightly weaker at high level, but that's past the point that most people play and it also hurts less at that point anyway.

[Devigor]

That is more of what I was going for, thanks!

And as for the super "no chill" comment 2 up, that post was entirely opinion. Thanks for the input! Opinion was what I wanted. That just seems more dismissive than actually helpful, or provacative, however. Maybe work on that? Still, you brought up a good point.

[P.F.]

I will vote no.

This houserule seems to simultaneously complicate the class system while restricting multiclass options, and doesn't appear to add any benefit for the players (increased usefulness for under-performing classes) or to the DM (improved game balance or curb over-powered class abilities). As was mentioned in an earlier comment, this also seems like it would take a lot of work to set up ahead of time, and for the players to familiarize themselves with before play.

That said, there is nothing wrong with a core-only game, and core-only does not require any special modifications of the core rules to be fun and interesting.

[AvatarVecna]

Your goal is noble, but 3.5 is intentially designed as a chaotic mish-mash of several different sub-systems, and allows characters to be built that are anwhere from "makes a commoner look like a wizard" to "makes a wizard look like a commoner". 3.5 isthe system to use when you want the freedom to make compelx builds of vastly differing power levels; rather than trying to change 3.5 from complex and unbalanced to simple and balanced, maybe find a system thatcs already simple and balanced?

If I want to play a simple game, I play 5e because of the editions focus on RAI; if I want to play a balanced game, I play 4e for the across-the-board equality in character creation; if I want to delve into the infinite complexities of character generation and drudge out a martial build that puts full casters to shame, I play a dragonwrought kobold in 3.5e, because the system is complex and unbalanced enough to allow me to do that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That just seems more dismissive than actually helpful, or provacative, however.
I presume that would be my post. I did provide a 'constructive' post before that, as it happens (relevant part reproduced below), providing an existing mechanic with similar results, but you did not reply. After that, it seemed more useful to challenge some of your assumptions first, because the solution must depend on the problem, naturally. If we start with the wrong assumptions regarding the game's intentions, we'll never be on the same page about the problems, much less the solutions.



That said, there are these things called 'martial arts' (not to be confused with Mars' actual arts), which are tactical feat-like benefits you automatically get once you meet the prerequisites. Usually, they require something like monk 6/fighter 2/psychic warrior 2/martial rogue 2 with two flaws and the Frog God's Lane to even meet the prereqs in reasonable time, but you could make a bunch of powerful 'set bonuses' to encourage certain ability combinations. Note: ability combinations. Classes in 3.5 are strictly groupings of abilities, nothing else. It's the abilities that really carry the game.

To elaborate this point, I'll provide an example from Tome of Magic, page 218, in a sidebar by the infamously terrible prestige class Disciple of the Word, a truenamer/monk combination PrC. Note that this is not a feat - you get the benefits if you have all the prerequisites, no questions asked.


Word Given Form
You have mastered the martial arts style of "Word Given Form".
Prerequisites: Truespeak 12 ranks, Tumble 12 ranks, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Benefit: When using the Dodge feat against an opponent, in addition to the +1 dodge bonus to AC, you also gain total concealment (50% miss chance) from that opponent as your form blurs and shifts.

I think it's pretty clear why I said it takes a lot of (burnt) bonus feats to get these martial arts. It's the biggest flaw in their execution, which is an area homebrew could do good work in. If you pick the prerequisites for your martial arts carefully, such as by selecting mid-level class abilities (e.g. not second-level spells, but "Improved Combat Style" (ranger 6) or "DR 1/--" (barbarian 7)), you can encourage certain multiclass combinations. Do keep in mind that few classes, especially core classes, have noteworthy abilities past level 5. You may need to add a few more abilities that are unique to certain classes, which is in general a pretty decent idea if you want to encourage single-classing.

I hope that's constructive enough for you :smallwink:.