Helping Orcus become a Deity. Rewards?

[BrokenCamel]

In the 5e game I DM, our level 10 Warlock has deceived the party into thinking that she knows the location of a place they can seal an evil dead deity's remains away forever. The Warlock has even convinced the party to let her handle the portable hole that contains said remains. What she is actually doing, is delivering the remains to Orcus (her patron) who will use them in his bid to become a diety. Our level 10 druid (suddenly evil druid) is recently in on the plan after he discovered the plot by accident. Why is a Druid helping bring Orcus into Faerun? Who knows, but we're rolling with it.

Orcus has told the Warlock that the rewards for a such an undertaking would be great, but what would be appropriate for a level 10 Warlock who already has a Rod of the Pact Keeper +1? Next level role playing, and supremely good rolls make me want to be generous, but this player is already quite powerful. So far I have played with these ideas or a combination of them:

-Some roleplay fluff: her steps leave behind a faint trail of miasma filling onlookers with dread (can be toggled i suppose), dogs, cats birds, lesser wildlife fear/wary of her. Encountered demons may recognize her?
-Gain animate dead as a bonus invocation (limited uses),
-Adopt a demonic characteristic(s) (claws, wings, or a breath weapon). Mostly for RP.
-Disregard my concerns and upgrade her Rod Of The Pact Keeper to near artifact level power.
-On top of granting temporary hit points, dealing a killing blow allows her to absorb a part of their soul, fueling charges for limited spells on her improved Rod of the Pact Keeper.
Your thoughts?

[DonElektro]

If she completes such a major and difficult quest she deserves any reward within rules or a custom minor as you say. If the really question is "should I let her be unstoppable of power or no?" Then you must consider if you give all characters same difficulty quests and they fail it is right to reward finely the one who succeeded.

[Beleriphon]

You artifact up the Rod of the Pact Keeper, but use the DMG quirks and abilities table. I'd do two minor abilities and one minor quirk.

[Corran]

Give the player one single casting of the wish spell, to use at her convenience, but only once. Nothing permanent to further upset the balance between your players, and still a very good reward.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Look at the Wand of Orcus for a bit of guidance maybe? Obviously he wouldn't actually give away his prized possession, but perhaps her rod takes on aspects of a lesser imitation, following the suggestion of minor traits and quirks. Also if it hits artifact status, instead of 1/day have the pact keeper refresh once per short rest when their "dark ones blessing" triggers

[JackPhoenix]

Orcus, the omnicidal maniac demon prince who hates everything beside himself? Letting the character to live a little longer is the greatest reward he can get. Alternatively, if you don't want to "reward" the characters with what they deserve for thinking helping a demon prince to ascend to godhood is a good idea...

Orcus is a demon prince of undead, maybe change the characters into ones? If the vampire spawn are too powerful (I'm not even talking about true vampires), how about giving them the usual undead poison immunity, poisoned condition immunity, darkvision and no need to eat, sleep or breathe? If you want to add even more, then give them the choice of zombie's Undead Fortitude, resistance to piercing damage or resistance/immunity to necrotic damage? (neither of that are generic undead abilities, but they fit)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Make it a scaling reward, making Orcus a god isn't worth a trinket or a one off ability. Hell, whenever the player dies it seems like top lieutenant to Orcus is called for.

[Temperjoke]

Betrayal. Evil beings can't be trusted to keep their word, after all.


Anyways, the reward should clearly reflect that it is an evil item, gained through evil means, with evil powers. I'm talking radiating so much evil, paladins get headaches near it, and if they cast Detect Evil on it, they go insane.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Betrayal. Evil beings can't be trusted to keep their word, after all.


Anyways, the reward should clearly reflect that it is an evil item, gained through evil means, with evil powers. I'm talking radiating so much evil, paladins get headaches near it, and if they cast Detect Evil on it, they go insane.

You are thinking more along the lines of Chaotic (the rules don't apply to me), Evil creatures can be trusted if they are the sort to give their word and keep it.

Devils won't lie to you and won't break a contract.*


*



Terms and conditions may apply.

[JackPhoenix]

You are thinking more along the lines of Chaotic (the rules don't apply to me), Evil creatures can be trusted if they are the sort to give their word and keep it.

Devils won't lie to you and won't break a contract.

Orcus is a demon, chaotic evil. Also, read the fine print before signing any devil's contract.

[Douche]

Orcus wouldn't care who helped him. He'd exterminate all life, including the warlock, regardless.

[M Placeholder]

Orcus killed quite a few gods back in the day.

As for a "Reward", death (a very painful one) and then being dragged screaming into the Abyss should be one.

[gfishfunk]

Orcus would not be so careless as to discard a useful tool. Godhood has its own obstacles. And Gods love worshipers.

Orcus needs a new prophet: the warlock is revered by those who follow Orcus, and those followers are willing to do anything....anything.... that the prophet requests. Orcus is fine losing a few followers this way.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Orcus is a demon, chaotic evil. Also, read the fine print before signing any devil's contract.
.
.I like to think you missed my fine print.


Orcus would not be so careless as to discard a useful tool. Godhood has its own obstacles. And Gods love worshipers.

Orcus needs a new prophet: the warlock is revered by those who follow Orcus, and those followers are willing to do anything....anything.... that the prophet requests. Orcus is fine losing a few followers this way.

This.

CE doesn't mean chaotic stupid.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Warlock has even convinced the party to let her handle the portable hole that contains said remains. What she is actually doing, is delivering the remains to Orcus (her patron) who will use them in his bid to become a diety. Our level 10 druid (suddenly evil druid) is recently in on the plan after he discovered the plot by accident. Why is a Druid helping bring Orcus into Faerun? Who knows, but we're rolling with it.

Orcus has told the Warlock that the rewards for a such an undertaking would be great, but what would be appropriate for a level 10 Warlock who already has a Rod of the Pact Keeper +1? Next level role playing, and supremely good rolls make me want to be generous, but this player is already quite powerful. So far I have played with these ideas or a combination of them:
If Orcus becomes a deity, then someone has to set up the first temple, or lead the first great evangelization for the worship of Orcus.

The Reward? Nothing material. The greatest reward would be to be appointed as the "Mouth of Orcus" on this plane, which brings with it one or two free Cleric levels as reward. Take death domain -- and get a really cool hat. (High priests of major religions need cool hats) The hat allows the Warlock to commune with Orcus more easily, or to channel Orcus' voice perfectly, when an utterance is made regarding the worship of Orcus.

Deities need worshippers. Who better to lead the worshippers of this new deity than the devoted servant who made deification possible?

The RP follow on for this is diverse.

(Alternatively, and with the idea that leading followers is required to maintain this boon, award an additional +1 or +2

[Spiritchaser]

Title, respect, recognition...

And wings

Manifest at will per sorcerer 14 ability. Demonic, shadowy, vaprous or skeletal as appropriate

Because wings are just that cool.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Add/swap levels as a Favored Soul sorcerer, Death Domain?

Also all of you saying Orcus would/should just murder her...he is all about the UNdead, not just sending everybody to the afterlife. Also remember how he is a patient long-game planner, more so than most of the other demon lords (except maybe pazuzu or graz'zt) so he is less likely to act rashly/impulsively.

[thepsyker]

Orcus reaching godhood would be a campaign shifting event. I would let the party vote on if they want to go foward with an evil campaign where they serve as agents of Orcus leading his undead forces to take over the world while comiting unspeakable atrocities. In this case any PC characters who wouldnt join Orcus would become npcs leading the forces opposing the party. Alternatively they could go with a good campaign where they are major figures in the opposition to Orcus and those PCs that raised him would become npc generals in his army. Given that Orcus has that whole undead thing going on I would probably give the campaign a bit of a zombie apocalypse feel from then on, with random outbreaks of various undead being a constant problem. Regardless it would be a major campaign altering event with serious consequences far beyond any mechanical reward the warlock may recieve.

Edit: When I say I would have the party vote I of course mean the players. Depending on how it goes and with imput from any player whose character will be going npc I would then contrive to break the party up during the ascension to allow for said characters use in the future as npcs as opposed to just dying in a quick bit of pvp. Unless of couse that is what the player(s) want, to go out trying to prevent the ascencion.

[KorvinStarmast]

Orcus reaching godhood would be a campaign shifting event. I would let the party vote on if they want to go foward with an evil campaign where they serve as agents of Orcus leading his undead forces to take over the world while comiting unspeakable atrocities. In this case any PC character who wouldnt join Orcus would become an npc leading the forces opposing the party. Alternatively they could go with a good campaign where they are major figures in the opposition to Orcus and those PCs that raised him would become npc generals in his army. Given that Orcus has that whole undead thing going on I would probably give the campaign a bit of a zombie apocalypse feel from then on, with random outbreaks of various undead being a constant problem. Regardless it would be a major campaign altering event with serious consequences far beyond any mechanical reward the warlock may recieve.
Yeah, better explanation of how the RP gets diverse once Orcus reaches deity status.

Here's a thorny bit: If the rest of the party (the players) do not want to ally with whomever brought Orcus into godhood, you have to prepare for at least one sessions of PvP if you don't just pull the Warlock out of the campaign as NPC.

As to the Druid going evil and helping Orcus become a god, I think someone needs to read the Players Handbook Again, page 65. That which is unnatural (like the undead) are things specifically antithetical to Druids.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, better explanation of how the RP gets diverse once Orcus reaches deity status.

Here's a thorny bit: If the rest of the party (the players) do not want to ally with whomever brought Orcus into godhood, you have to prepare for at least one sessions of PvP if you don't just pull the Warlock out of the campaign as NPC.

As to the Druid going evil and helping Orcus become a god, I think someone needs to read the Players Handbook Again, page 65. That which is unnatural (like the undead) are things specifically antithetical to Druids.

Aren't you the one that always talks about old D&D?

3E had a Lich Druid. Doesn't get much more undeader than that.

[zeek0]

As a twist, Orcus could reward all members of the party. In part, this is to spite the warlock. Orcus assumes that the other party members will fight the warlock, so he grants them power to kill him.

This works well no matter the path taken. Either the warlock becomes an NPC, in which case the PCs get cool weapons to take him (and eventually Orcus) down, or the warlock somehow continues to work with the party, in which case the party will all be on par.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

As a twist, Orcus could reward all members of the party. In part, this is to spite the warlock. Orcus assumes that the other party members will fight the warlock, so he grants them power to kill him.

This works well no matter the path taken. Either the warlock becomes an NPC, in which case the PCs get cool weapons to take him (and eventually Orcus) down, or the warlock somehow continues to work with the party, in which case the party will all be on par.

Not to make the players hate each other but to make the player's bonds hate them and force them to serve him.

Relatives, cities, countries, and deities would shy away from someone who was a "Gifted of Orcus".

[jkat718]

I'd take a look at the Blessings available on p. 227-228 of the DMG. Specifically, the Blessing of Valhalla allows the bearer to summon 2d4+2 CR 2 Berserkers within 60 ft. of them, refreshing after 7 days. Ogre Zombies (MM, p. 316) are also CR 2, and would make for a good replacement.

This blessing grants you the power to command undead warriors in the name of the Demon Lord of Undeath, Orcus. You can use an action to summon 2d4+2 Zombie Ogres within 60 feet of you. They return to Thanatos after 1 hour or when they drop to 0 hit points. Once you use this blessing, you can't use it again until 7 days have passed.

[M Placeholder]

Aren't you the one that always talks about old D&D?

3E had a Lich Druid. Doesn't get much more undeader than that.

There were a group of undead druids who were making an army comprised of blightspawned creatures in a swamp near Thay in 3.5.

[gfishfunk]

I created a villain that was an insane druid that believed a prior infernal infestation in a forest (thousands of years ago) had become the natural state of the forest, and thus sought to return an infernal presence.

I think it can work as long as the druid takes an intentional ideological patchwork to make the contradictions make sense. It will likely taint the druid and make other druids actively hostile towards the PC druid.

[Addaran]

Lots of good ideas, love the "make him head priest" one.

To the other rewards, you could also had a free reincarnate* for when he dies. But his race would change for something demonic and/or undead.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Lots of good ideas, love the "make him head priest" one.

To the other rewards, you could also had a free reincarnate* for when he dies. But his race would change for something demonic and/or undead.

Undemon?

I'm not sure if that would be a devil or a human...

[JackPhoenix]

Undemon?

I'm not sure if that would be a devil or a human...

Undemon is an angel, obviously

Edit: OotA says this about Orcus:
Orcus is the Demon Prince of Undeath, known as the Blood Lord. He takes some pleasure in the sufferings of the living, but far prefers the company and service of the undead. His desire is to see all life quenched and the multiverse transformed into a vast necropolis populated solely by undead creatures under his command.
Orcus rewards those who spread death in his name by granting them a small portion of his power. The least of these become ghouls and zombies who serve in his legions, while his favored servants are the cultists and necromancers who murder the living and then manipulate the dead, emulating their dread master.

Also, his madness causes the others to turn emo:
"I often become withdrawn and moody, dwelling on the insufferable state of life."

"I am awash in the awareness of life's futility."

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Undemon is an angel, obviously


No, that's unfiend, I believe.

[Temperjoke]

The druid could just be playing along until the right opportunity to interfere occurs.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The druid could just be playing along until the right opportunity to interfere occurs.

Yes former... Err I mean boss, my plan all along was to betray Orcus...

[Temperjoke]

What I'm curious about is, what about the Warlock's Patron? How do they feel about Orcus becoming a god?

[gfishfunk]

In the 5e game I DM, our level 10 Warlock has deceived the party into thinking that she knows the location of a place they can seal an evil dead deity's remains away forever. The Warlock has even convinced the party to let her handle the portable hole that contains said remains. What she is actually doing, is delivering the remains to Orcus (her patron) who will use them in his bid to become a diety. Our level 10 druid (suddenly evil druid) is recently in on the plan after he discovered the plot by accident. Why is a Druid helping bring Orcus into Faerun? Who knows, but we're rolling with it.


What I'm curious about is, what about the Warlock's Patron? How do they feel about Orcus becoming a god?

Patron = Orcus. So, probably good, unless Orcus has dissociative identity issues.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd take a look at the Blessings available on p. 227-228 of the DMG. Specifically, the Blessing of Valhalla allows the bearer to summon 2d4+2 CR 2 Berserkers within 60 ft. of them, refreshing after 7 days. Ogre Zombies (MM, p. 316) are also CR 2, and would make for a good replacement.
Like the way you think! :smallbiggrin:

Also like the "makes the warlock emo" suggestion. :smallbiggrin: But the Warlock would probably need to get on board and embrace that, as it's RP heavy.


Aren't you the one that always talks about old D&D? Irrelevant to my comments in this discussion, as we are discussing 5e (see title of forum) and I am citing the 5e PHB.
3E had a Lich Druid. Doesn't get much more undeader than that. One of a myriad of things wrong with NEW D&D. 3.0 is new, my friend. But quite frankly, I expect that in 1e or 2e any number of folks might have tried that out -- it was very much an experimenter's game in those wild days. But if one was at least close to RAW in those days (for sure 1e) a Liche could not be a Cleric, of which druid was a sub class. Had to be some sort of Magic User. (Just checked: 2e retained the "must have been a Wizard of 18th level or higher for Liche).

(Wisecrack of Opportunity asking you to vacate the verge is not taken).

[Temperjoke]

Patron = Orcus. So, probably good, unless Orcus has dissociative identity issues.

Oh whoops, missed that! Thanks :P I don't have SCAG so I'm not used to thinking about the pact from there yet.

[Kane0]

RP rewards:
1. He no longer needs to eat, sleep or breathe.
2. He assumes a more demonic and/or undead appearance, which makes him unnerving and recognizable
3. He is given a special rank or title by Orcus, becoming both respected and influential amongst other followers of Orcus.

Mechanical Rewards:
1. Rod of the pact keeper replaces its 1/day spell slot ability with the following: When your Dark One's Blessing activates (when you drop a foe to 0 HP) your rod absorbs a portion of the slain creature's life and soul, gaining 1 charge (to a maximum of 20). When you cast a Warlock spell you can spend a number of charges from your rod equal to the spells level in place of the warlock pact magic slot you would normally use.
2. Add 1 or 2 spells per spell level to the Warlocks' spells known. Good additions could be taken from the Patron's expanded spells, an appropriate cleric domain, or here (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf). Create undead would be an excellent choice, and together with the Rod's effect would mimic Orcus and his wand nicely.

Nothing that makes him immediately OP, but is desirable and fun. If he starts massacring peasants to fuel his Rod then the RP elements come into play.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Irrelevant to my comments in this discussion, as we are discussing 5e (see title of forum) and I am citing the 5e PHB. One of a myriad of things wrong with NEW D&D. 3.0 is new, my friend. But quite frankly, I expect that in 1e or 2e any number of folks might have tried that out -- it was very much an experimenter's game in those wild days. But if one was at least close to RAW in those days (for sure 1e) a Liche could not be a Cleric, of which druid was a sub class. Had to be some sort of Magic User.

(Wisecrack of Opportunity asking you to vacate the verge is not taken).

So when other people talk just about 5e you can bring up old D&D but when others talk about it then it's wrong?

Wow, nice...

It is possible to have an undead Druid bias 5e rules, DM says yes.

[KorvinStarmast]

So when other people talk just about 5e you can bring up old D&D but when others talk about it then it's wrong?
No, those are your words, not mine, and by the way, a FALSE characterization of my post. YOu might wish to be less dishonest in the future. Your use of "So" in that sentence is a red flag to alert all reader to "falsehood follows" when the following is an attempt to put your words into someone else's mouth.

It is possible to have an undead Druid bias 5e rules, DM says yes. Indeed it is, if the DM chooses to craft one. (And it might be an awesome "rule of cool" invention at that!) That is homebrew, not the published rule book I was referring to in what a Druid is, per description in the PHB.

Did you bother to read it, the PHB, or are you just talking out of your backside?

EDIT
Here, let me be of help:

Druids accept that which is cruel in nature, and they hate that which is unnatural, including abberations(such as beholders and mind flayers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires)
Page 65 PHB.

[BrokenCamel]

Wow, thanks for all the insightful feedback! Orcus becoming a deity is definitely going to be a major world changing event. Following his rise, certain anomalies will occur at random at least until he either succeeds or fails. The pc's will hear stories about a town where the inhabitants are no longer dying of natural causes or any cause for that matter, another where the inhabitants turn undead immediately following death, a graveyard that has become a massive sinkhole said to lead to the Abyss itself, small communities/towns begin struggling with a surge of kidnappings and undead stalking the land, the leader of a major nation has come out as a lich but none dare oppose him and his minions.

I have talked to the Warlock and if the party makes attempt to stop her, and it looks like she will lose, she will simply throw herself (along with the portable hole) into the pit Orcus told her that he wanted them delivered to. In this case I suppose she would become the BBEG.

Assuming that she succeeds, I will eventually have Orcus betray her and make attempt on her and the lives of the party.

I will definitely upgrade the Rod into giving at least +2 and granting usable spells /day with charges. I have a lot of decisions to make on all the suggestions here, but you guys have made that a lot easier for me now

[KorvinStarmast]

Wow, thanks for all the insightful feedback! Orcus becoming a deity is definitely going to be a major world changing event. Following his rise, certain anomalies will occur at random at least until he either succeeds or fails. The pc's will hear stories about a town where the inhabitants are no longer dying of natural causes or any cause for that matter, another where the inhabitants turn undead immediately following death, a graveyard that has become a massive sinkhole said to lead to the Abyss itself, small communities/towns begin struggling with a surge of kidnappings and undead stalking the land, the leader of a major nation has come out as a lich but none dare oppose him and his minions.

I have talked to the Warlock and if the party makes attempt to stop her, and it looks like she will lose, she will simply throw herself (along with the portable hole) into the pit Orcus told her that he wanted them delivered to. In this case I suppose she would become the BBEG.

Assuming that she succeeds, I will eventually have Orcus betray her and make attempt on her and the lives of the party.

I will definitely upgrade the Rod into giving at least +2 and granting usable spells /day with charges. I have a lot of decisions to make on all the suggestions here, but you guys have made that a lot easier for me now
Please let us know how it all plays out, this looks like some seriously awesome fun at your table.

[BrokenCamel]

Will do! As for the Druid i think i can homebrew something somewhat plausible. As a Land Druid he would lose Grassland as his circle, and instead have to choose Abyss as his new Circle (with appropriate fire/death spells). As for shapeshifting, maybe have to choose from Abyssal creatures only. In addition, normal Druids, fey, and wildlife would recognize him for what he is. As for his reason for helping Orcus, i will really have to discuss that with him. His orginal reasoning was 'I think it would be cool'. Which is fair, I guess but with that thinking, I will definitely be making consequences for his actions.

[MaxWilson]

Orcus has told the Warlock that the rewards for a such an undertaking would be great, but what would be appropriate for a level 10 Warlock who already has a Rod of the Pact Keeper +1? Next level role playing, and supremely good rolls make me want to be generous, but this player is already quite powerful. So far I have played with these ideas or a combination of them:

-Some roleplay fluff: her steps leave behind a faint trail of miasma filling onlookers with dread (can be toggled i suppose), dogs, cats birds, lesser wildlife fear/wary of her. Encountered demons may recognize her?
-Gain animate dead as a bonus invocation (limited uses),
-Adopt a demonic characteristic(s) (claws, wings, or a breath weapon). Mostly for RP.
-Disregard my concerns and upgrade her Rod Of The Pact Keeper to near artifact level power.
-On top of granting temporary hit points, dealing a killing blow allows her to absorb a part of their soul, fueling charges for limited spells on her improved Rod of the Pact Keeper.
Your thoughts?

Assuming you're not going to have Orcus betray the PC, the reward I would suggest is not powers but social status, including minions. She gets a place in Orcus's priestly or military hierarchy (can't remember which one he uses), has to take orders from some entities but gets to give orders to others. If Orcus really wants to, he can whistle up a Death Knight for her and order it to be her bodyguard/butler/batman. There would be social repercussions for being seen with an undead Death Knight in public, but from Orcus's perspective that's not even a downside, just a thing which people need to get over, possibly by the Death Knight fireballing them in the face.

The best part is, even if Orcus is genuinely not planning on betraying her eventually and having the Death Knight kill her, there's no way she can ever be entirely sure of that.

[rlc]

3.0 is new
Not that it's important, but since you're calling others dishonest, this isnt exactly honest, either. Being newer than something else doesn't make that something new, especially it that something is about a decade and a half old and there have been several editions of that something since its release.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not that it's important, but since you're calling others dishonest, this isnt exactly honest, either. Being newer than something else doesn't make that something new, especially it that something is about a decade and a half old and there have been several editions of that something since its release. At the risk of zero value bickering, in the context of his criticism of my often referring to TSR editions (which I do), all of WoTC D&D is "new" in comparison to those references, which was his gripe.

Further that point, the style and feel of the game underwent a significant change between 2e to 3e -- the d20 system was in a lot of ways a new game, even though it is built on the foundations of the old game -- but that's a discussion for another thread.

To put the numbers to it, I've been with this game since ~1975, so something 15 years old is certainly new ... in that bounded time frame. SwordChuck ( in a different discussion) pointed out quite correctly that while 5e tries to get some of the older feel to the game, it is very much a WoTC era D&D game -- the new form of the game.

[swrider]

I recently started a similar campaign where the pcs patron had them gather the supplies to raise an avatar of orcas (death tyrant reskinned) his reward is orcas granting him the knowledge on how to become a lich. That could also work for a pc and lead to a campaign in and of itself. For my game this allows the npc to become the bigger badder guy once the avatar is dead.

[rlc]

His orginal reasoning was 'I think it would be cool'. Which is fair, I guess but with that thinking, I will definitely be making consequences for his actions.
I mean, he is playing to have fun, so "it would be cool" makes sense for the player, but yeah, definitely give the character some kind of consequences, even if it's just new spells and people being suspicious if him.
Actually, people will probably be suspicious if the whole party, if it gets out that even just the warlock follows Orcus. Maybe paladins or priests will be attacking them on site. Maybe you can even send some angels their way in addition to the ramdom undead and dinkhole appearances to drive the point home that they're dealing with some evil stuff.

At the risk of zero value bickering...
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I could definitely argue more, but this whole thing is just going to go in circles.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I could definitely argue more, but this whole thing is just going to go in circles. Agree to disagree I will, and warmest regards. I suspect that the initial jab at me from our friend was a carry over from a different discussion where I responded negatively (I wasn't the only one) to an idea presented for consideration.

Happy gaming, in any case.

[snacksmoto]

I will eventually have Orcus betray her...

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Just as Lawful Good isn't automatically Inflexible Stupid, neither is Chaotic Evil automatically Random Stupid. Why would Orcus get rid of an obviously useful tool (the Warlock) who already has a pact with him? He's smart enough to take advantage of tools that are still useful and who will promote his agenda. Orcus is a long-term planner and would obviously weigh the improvement of a devoted follower with various rewards against all the agenda advancement that he would receive from an influential follower. Besides, what is the lifetime of a PC compared to that of a being who's age is measured in millennia? Orcus has no reason to betray the Warlock so long as the Warlock continues to serve. That won't stop him from having contingencies though, and he won't hesitate to annihilate the Warlock should she attempt to betray him.

[BrokenCamel]

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Just as Lawful Good isn't automatically Inflexible Stupid, neither is Chaotic Evil automatically Random Stupid. Why would Orcus get rid of an obviously useful tool (the Warlock) who already has a pact with him? He's smart enough to take advantage of tools that are still useful and who will promote his agenda. Orcus is a long-term planner and would obviously weigh the improvement of a devoted follower with various rewards against all the agenda advancement that he would receive from an influential follower. Besides, what is the lifetime of a PC compared to that of a being who's age is measured in millennia? Orcus has no reason to betray the Warlock so long as the Warlock continues to serve. That won't stop him from having contingencies though, and he won't hesitate to annihilate the Warlock should she attempt to betray him.

Sigh. I'm not RP'ing Orcus as Chaotic stupid and i dont see it as a stretch for Orcus to send a few Demons her way to as a test. Calling it betrayal may have been a bit extreme as its not exactly what I intend.

[MaxWilson]

I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Just as Lawful Good isn't automatically Inflexible Stupid, neither is Chaotic Evil automatically Random Stupid. Why would Orcus get rid of an obviously useful tool (the Warlock) who already has a pact with him? He's smart enough to take advantage of tools that are still useful and who will promote his agenda. Orcus is a long-term planner and would obviously weigh the improvement of a devoted follower with various rewards against all the agenda advancement that he would receive from an influential follower. Besides, what is the lifetime of a PC compared to that of a being who's age is measured in millennia? Orcus has no reason to betray the Warlock so long as the Warlock continues to serve. That won't stop him from having contingencies though, and he won't hesitate to annihilate the Warlock should she attempt to betray him.

Maybe Orcus, like the druid, just thinks 'I think it would be cool'.

[treecko]

Now if I was Orcus and someone helped me become a god, I think I would reward them by allowing them to shed their weak shell of life. Turn them into a powerful undead like a lich as a lieutenant. That's sort of campaign ending though, so use only if needed.

[solidork]

A working ritual to achieve lichedom is a pretty standard favor Orcus hands out isn't it?

[BrokenCamel]

Now if I was Orcus and someone helped me become a god, I think I would reward them by allowing them to shed their weak shell of life. Turn them into a powerful undead like a lich as a lieutenant. That's sort of campaign ending though, so use only if needed.

That's actually a really cool idea if it ever comes to that. I just don't want her to get too comfortable with Orcus. Just an occassional reminder that he is a maniacal, scheming, and at best unpredictable entity bent on destroying all life. Sure, he may tone it down a bit once he achieves godhood to attract more followers, but he is what he is.

[KorvinStarmast]

Now if I was Orcus and someone helped me become a god, I think I would reward them by allowing them to shed their weak shell of life. Turn them into a powerful undead like a lich as a lieutenant. That's sort of campaign ending though, so use only if needed.
And maybe change the name of the PC to Xorcon or Xorkon or something like that.


What? :smallcool:

[Addaran]

That's actually a really cool idea if it ever comes to that. I just don't want her to get too comfortable with Orcus. Just an occassional reminder that he is a maniacal, scheming, and at best unpredictable entity bent on destroying all life. Sure, he may tone it down a bit once he achieves godhood to attract more followers, but he is what he is.

That's why the warlock should make sure he doesn't have a life anymore. Go team undead! :smallbiggrin:

[rlc]

Depending on how the warlock plays it, Orcus might decide that he's given her too much power and she's become a threat. Obviously, this would make the most sensr if you plan on ending the campaign with a big fight against Orcus.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

That's actually a really cool idea if it ever comes to that. I just don't want her to get too comfortable with Orcus. Just an occassional reminder that he is a maniacal, scheming, and at best unpredictable entity bent on destroying all life. Sure, he may tone it down a bit once he achieves godhood to attract more followers, but he is what he is.

Quick question, is she pact of the fiend or pact of the undying? Cus leveling up, undying become pseudo-undead lich-in-training types

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure if this is helpful, but I just saw something about undead Druids (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/21276/22566) (albeit 3.5e) that you might find useful if the druid player gets totally onboard with the warlock in making Orcus a God.

You might be able to fold that in/port that in to 5e.
Or not.

[Osrogue]

I think that Orcus can tell the Warlock the secrets of lichdom, and encourage the warlock to take that path eventually. Orcus would probably appreciate an immortal intelligent undead as the head of his newfound church.

[Beleriphon]

I think that Orcus can tell the Warlock the secrets of lichdom, and encourage the warlock to take that path eventually. Orcus would probably appreciate an immortal intelligent undead as the head of his newfound church.

Isn't the Ghoul king one of Orcus' exarchs or something anything anyways? Its not like its above him to elevate a powerful servant to near deity like status as well.

[Fwiffo86]

In the 5e game I DM, our level 10 Warlock has deceived the party into thinking that she knows the location of a place they can seal an evil dead deity's remains away forever. The Warlock has even convinced the party to let her handle the portable hole that contains said remains. What she is actually doing, is delivering the remains to Orcus (her patron) who will use them in his bid to become a diety. Our level 10 druid (suddenly evil druid) is recently in on the plan after he discovered the plot by accident. Why is a Druid helping bring Orcus into Faerun? Who knows, but we're rolling with it.

Orcus has told the Warlock that the rewards for a such an undertaking would be great, but what would be appropriate for a level 10 Warlock who already has a Rod of the Pact Keeper +1? Next level role playing, and supremely good rolls make me want to be generous, but this player is already quite powerful. So far I have played with these ideas or a combination of them:


My two cents:

Why can't it be:

The warlock is made immortal by having his soul shunted into a stone, left on a shelf and forgotten. Nothing in here says that Orcus (known for manipulation of pawns to achieve his goals) cares anything for his mortal helper. In all likelyhood, he shouldn't care one whit about some puny mortal.

Its also classic story element, the "friend" who ends up serving the greater evil for great rewards (or to protect X - though I can't see that angle here) is in fact punished for his hubris and greed.

If you want a suggestion for a reward that encourages your player to descend into evil, I unfortunately, have no offerings.

[druid91]

No, those are your words, not mine, and by the way, a FALSE characterization of my post. YOu might wish to be less dishonest in the future. Your use of "So" in that sentence is a red flag to alert all reader to "falsehood follows" when the following is an attempt to put your words into someone else's mouth.
Indeed it is, if the DM chooses to craft one. (And it might be an awesome "rule of cool" invention at that!) That is homebrew, not the published rule book I was referring to in what a Druid is, per description in the PHB.

Did you bother to read it, the PHB, or are you just talking out of your backside?

EDIT
Here, let me be of help:

Page 65 PHB.

Technically. Any PC can become a lich if they can get their hands on the book of Vile Darkness. Alternatively, they could become a Death Knight.

[KorvinStarmast]

Technically. Any PC can become a lich if they can get their hands on the book of Vile Darkness. Alternatively, they could become a Death Knight. As the book of vile darkness is protected material per the SRD for 5e, and I am AFB at the moment, I'll table a reply on this until I can ponder the details.

[Temperjoke]

As the book of vile darkness is protected material per the SRD for 5e, and I am AFB at the moment, I'll table a reply on this until I can ponder the details.

What's this? "How to Gain Friends and Dominate the World?" Hmm, oh, it's a DIY guide to ultimate evil through excessive use of necromancy!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

My two cents:

Why can't it be:

The warlock is made immortal by having his soul shunted into a stone, left on a shelf and forgotten. Nothing in here says that Orcus (known for manipulation of pawns to achieve his goals) cares anything for his mortal helper. In all likelyhood, he shouldn't care one whit about some puny mortal.

Its also classic story element, the "friend" who ends up serving the greater evil for great rewards (or to protect X - though I can't see that angle here) is in fact punished for his hubris and greed.

If you want a suggestion for a reward that encourages your player to descend into evil, I unfortunately, have no offerings.

Because this is overly cliche?

Good help is hard to come by, why get help from people unproven as opposed to someone who has proven themselves...

I mean, if you find the one storm trooper who can hit things you don't get rid of them. You promote him or her and then make sure they are in a position to not really affect anything until you want them to.

Huge difference between manipulating pawns and manipulating a queen.

[Temperjoke]

Because this is overly cliche?

Good help is hard to come by, why get help from people unproven as opposed to someone who has proven themselves...

I mean, if you find the one storm trooper who can hit things you don't get rid of them. You promote him or her and then make sure they are in a position to not really affect anything until you want them to.

Huge difference between manipulating pawns and manipulating a queen.

The problem is, someone powerful enough to be of use to you is also a huge risk to you as well. Think of it as a pro versus con sort of thing, is the potential danger that this chess piece wields low enough to justify using them a bit longer?

EDIT: Let's use your example. Assuming that Orcus is the King, the warlock is the Queen, the warlock would be a huge risk to Orcus, given the warlock's mobility and power, compared to the risk of a basic pawn.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The problem is, someone powerful enough to be of use to you is also a huge risk to you as well. Think of it as a pro versus con sort of thing, is the potential danger that this chess piece wields low enough to justify using them a bit longer?

EDIT: Let's use your example. Assuming that Orcus is the King, the warlock is the Queen, the warlock would be a huge risk to Orcus, given the warlock's mobility and power, compared to the risk of a basic pawn.

Yeah there is risk, it's called your bonds, ideals, and background.

Having family/friends/government/deities/random strangers actively hate or turn against you is a huge risk.

Orcus is already laughing his butt off AND getting a valuable piece, without doing much except giving a tiny bit of power to a mortal. Said mortal is good enough to help him he a god, what else can that mortal do for him?

Make sure to turn the mortal undead as to get more dominion over him or her, but no reason to screw yourself (orcus) over.

[Temperjoke]

Yeah there is risk, it's called your bonds, ideals, and background.

Having family/friends/government/deities/random strangers actively hate or turn against you is a huge risk.

Orcus is already laughing his butt off AND getting a valuable piece, without doing much except giving a tiny bit of power to a mortal. Said mortal is good enough to help him he a god, what else can that mortal do for him?

Make sure to turn the mortal undead as to get more dominion over him or her, but no reason to screw yourself (orcus) over.

That mortal has intimate knowledge and key involvement in one of his plans, information and placement that one of Orcus's enemies would be keenly interested in having. The danger an ally represents isn't necessarily just their direct threat, but the danger in what could happen if they were subverted or captured.

[BrokenCamel]

Keep in mind that being a deity comes with its own complications. If a Diety can not attract enough followers, they will lose divinity or at least be severely weakened. In order to achieve his goal Orcus will need at least some loyal followers to recruit people to his cause. In the game I run, these select few are advertising Orcus as benevolent, fair, and attentive to his flock. Classic cult public relations campaign. Being a demon he can be a chaotic stupid, but as a God he has to play the long con.

[BrokenCamel]

Just to update, the Warlock succeeded in delivering the godly remains to Orcus. Since the Druid and Warlock had bribed our Tiefling Fighter into going along with the plan, it left only our Dwarven Barbarian alone in protest who refused to enter the temple grounds. After dropping the bones into a sacrificial pit the temple came to life, (or death I should say) as it seemed to draw in all light around it, rebuilding its ruined columns and effigies to Orcus. The Warlock was immediately killed by a spectral corpulent hand that touched her on the solar plexus.

The Warlock is now an undead pc gaining some drawbacks (sunlight sensitivity, weakness to radiant damage) and some benefits (no longer needs to eat, sleep, breathe, resistance to necrotic damage) and is now one of the Voices of Orcus in the world tasked with building his following. I did mention that the effects were 'just the beginning' in case I need to change them for balance, more rewards or RP. Her rod of the Pact Keeper, now 'Staff of the Undying' gives +2 bonuses and spells per day usable with charges that restore at twilight daily. The Druid is no longer a Druid, but a homebrew class I called a Reaver. Basically the same as a Druid except he draws power from the unnatural and seeks to undue nature. His circle is now the Abyss with theme appropriate spells, and he can only wild shape into unnatural creatures like demons, imps etc. Spells like Plant growth now cause the opposite effect. I will post the full details of it later when I have more time.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That mortal has intimate knowledge and key involvement in one of his plans, information and placement that one of Orcus's enemies would be keenly interested in having. The danger an ally represents isn't necessarily just their direct threat, but the danger in what could happen if they were subverted or captured.

If we are going cliche villain then this means that if Orcus does something like *puts warlock's soul in gem and hide it*, then that right there just means some adventurers can find said gem and then the Warlock will go against Orcus. Even if Orcus puts the gem up his own butt, adventurers can find a way of getting it.

Making the warlock who is very valuable (and has information on Orcus) mad at Orcus is just plain stupid. Until Orcus has no use for the Warlock, which sounds like isn't likely, or the Warlock betrays Orcus there really is no reason for Orcus to betray the Walorck other than cliche *LolStupidEvil*.

You don't get to the top by being *LolStupidEvil*, unless you are being manipulated by another.

Actually, OP, make sure Asmodeus benefits somehow from Orcus becoming a deity OR if Orcus fails to become a deity.

[Kane0]

Actually, OP, make sure Asmodeus benefits somehow if Orcus becomes a deity OR AND if Orcus fails to become a deity.

Fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:

[Temperjoke]

Making the warlock who is very valuable (and has information on Orcus) mad at Orcus is just plain stupid. Until Orcus has no use for the Warlock, which sounds like isn't likely, or the Warlock betrays Orcus there really is no reason for Orcus to betray the Walorck other than cliche *LolStupidEvil*.

You don't get to the top by being *LolStupidEvil*, unless you are being manipulated by another.



Here's where we're having our disagreement. You see the Boss villain betraying his powerful subordinate as being "*LolStupidEvil*" while I see it as paranoid Boss villain mitigating risk via the inevitable betrayal.

[Kane0]

Why would Orcus be paranoid? What reason does he have to be anything but arrogant? He's Orcus.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Fixed that for you :smallbiggrin:

That's what I meant, and why I wouldn't be dealing with any Devils...


Here's where we're having our disagreement. You see the Boss villain betraying his powerful subordinate as being "*LolStupidEvil*" while I see it as paranoid Boss villain mitigating risk via the inevitable betrayal.


Why would Orcus be paranoid? What reason does he have to be anything but arrogant? He's Orcus.

I have no clue why Orcus would be paranoid. All the warlock's power is coming from him, the warlock is just able to use it on the material plane. Orcus screwing over the warlock for no other reason than paranoia is being *LolStupidEvil*.

[Temperjoke]

Why would Orcus be paranoid? What reason does he have to be anything but arrogant? He's Orcus.

Because Orcus isn't the only being who wants to be a god? Because Orcus has rivals/enemies? Again, eliminating the warlock isn't because he's afraid of the warlock, it's because of he's afraid what could his rivals/enemies could do if they captured/subverted the warlock.

Not that it matters anyways, since the plot has moved on in the OP's game, and Orcus has gained godhood in his game.

[Kane0]

Now all I can think about is Orcus pulling a Harbinger on random warlocks sworn into his service.

Assuming direct control.

[Temperjoke]

Now all I can think about is Orcus pulling a Harbinger on random warlocks sworn into his service.

Assuming direct control.

See, that is one way to mitigate the danger. I'm not saying it would be random or arbitrary, no "Oh hey, nice job today" followed up with a beheading. It would be a cold, calculated decision, weighing on the scales of their value versus their risk. Does this person know too much to risk leaving alive? Are they strong enough to hold my secret plans against <insert enemy's name>'s interrogation and torture? That's part of the danger of working for evil bosses.

[Envyus]

Is the warlock alive. If yes then Orcus's reward should be to make him undead. (Game playwise you don't even have to change his stats around too much. Just give him a few resistances and say he no longer has to eat or sleep.)

Orcus sees this as the greatest reward he can hand someone. As the living are anethama to him. People who worship Orcus do so to become intelligent and immortal undead. Who are to continue to worship him in death.



I have no clue why Orcus would be paranoid. All the warlock's power is coming from him, the warlock is just able to use it on the material plane. Orcus screwing over the warlock for no other reason than paranoia is being *LolStupidEvil*.
Orcus is far too arrogant to screw over servants out of paranoia. But he would both reward him and screw him over in ways.

Take the Origin of Ghouls


Ghouls trace their origins to the Abyss. Doresain, the first of their kind, was an elf worshiper of Orcus. Turning against his own people, he feasted on humanoid flesh to honor the Demon Prince of Undeath. As a reward for his service, Orcus transformed Doresain into the first ghoul. Doresain served Orcus faithfully in the Abyss, creating ghouls from the demon lord's other servants until an incursion by Yeenoghu, the demonic Gnoll Lord, robbed Doresain of his abyssal domain. When Orcus would not intervene on his behalf, Doresain turned to the elf gods for salvation, and they took pity on him and helped him escape certain destruction. Since then, elves have been immune to the ghouls' paralytic touch.

Pretty much Orcus rewarded his servant by making him undead. Then later at a whim left him to die.

[JackPhoenix]

Why would Orcus be paranoid? What reason does he have to be anything but arrogant? He's Orcus.

Because (if we use older role), he can see himself in the warlock. Orcus, unlike Demogorgon, wasn't born as a demon lord...he was human necromancer, then he died, ended up in the Abyss as a larva and got from THAT to one of 3 most powerful demons in the multiverse, to a god and then a demon lord again. You don't do all of that without a healthy dose of paranoia.

But at least he proved that in Abyss, you can get from the absolute bottom to the top by being the most ruthless and evil bastard all around. In the Baator, you're still just a cog in a corporate Infernal machine.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Is the warlock alive. If yes then Orcus's reward should be to make him undead. (Game playwise you don't even have to change his stats around too much. Just give him a few resistances and say he no longer has to eat or sleep.)

Orcus sees this as the greatest reward he can hand someone. As the living are anethama to him. People who worship Orcus do so to become intelligent and immortal undead. Who are to continue to worship him in death.


Orcus is far too arrogant to screw over servants out of paranoia. But he would both reward him and screw him over in ways.

Take the Origin of Ghouls



Pretty much Orcus rewarded his servant by making him undead. Then later at a whim left him to die.

See that's what I've been saying all along. Reward and screw over.

Basically give the Warlock power and send out a memo to everyone in the material plane that *this guy* is his head hancho... Errr.. priest person and that he is directly responsible for making Orcus a god.

This keeps the Warlock in his toes, looks like a challenge and not a direct threat, and has pleeeeenty of role play potential. And it doesn't have Orcus acting like *LolStupudEvil*.

[Mr.Moron]

A death marginally less painful than everyone else's.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

A death marginally less painful than everyone else's.

http://everythingfunny.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/172.jpg

At least when the show was younger, I guess.

[Addaran]

If Orcus is really scared of people getting information by torturing his head priest, he could easily just use wish to remove dangerous infos....
Bam, nobody remember how Orcus became a god ( so none can became a God or reverse the process) and he don't remember the weakness he might know.

P.S. Obviously, he don't cast wish himself is there's a risk of the 33% lose wish. He can use a ring of wish or force someone else to cast it for him.