Arcane Minionmancy in 5e as early as possible

[Segev]

In 3.5e, wizards had command undead, and could even take a feat (Precocious Apprentice) to get it as early as level 1. While it wouldn't allow them to create their own, this would allow a dedicated necromancer to hunt down undead and claim them as his minions very early in his career.

Unless I've missed it somewhere, it looks like the command undead spell is gone from 5e. Is there an equivalent way to get undead minions earlier than level 5 or 6 (when animate dead becomes available)? To take control of undead before level 10 (when the Necromancer class feature to do so comes online)?

If you want to play a Wizard(Necromancer), what tricks are there in 5e to be an effective minionmancer, and what is the earliest level at which this is possible?

[zylodrizzt]

Oathbreaker Paladin can do something similar to command undead. That's level 3 I believe and I believe you also get animate dead though you may not get create undead.

[mealar]

if you don't specifically want them to be undead i've found druid is good for minion armies. if you go land for extra spell slots per day you get the conjure animals at 5th level then at 7th 2 more summons (minor elemental and woodland beings) and then 2 more powerful spells at 9th/11th.

also with this you have full caster benefit to can go nuke/control/support for other spells while you minion army swarms the enemy.

[Segev]

I am, specifically, looking for arcane necromantic minionmancy. Preferably Wizard(Necromancer).

It has always frustrated me that it seems most classes with peripheral interest in necromancy are better at that most iconic of its forms than the Wizard(Necromancer). I was thrilled when I realized that command undead actually made 3.5 necromancers pretty good at it. I was thus highly disappointed when I saw that the spell was gone from 5e, and that wizard(necromancers) had to wait until well into mid-high level before they could actually gain something similar. The only consolation is that animate dead is finally a 3rd level spell for them, but they now have nothing before it to get minions.

Unless I'm missing something. I'm hoping I am. Hence this thread asking for advice and guidance.

[SharkForce]

apart from beastmaster rangers (which give up their own actions in order to have a minion) and familiars (which can't make attacks and you only get one and it's a very low CR critter), practically speaking nobody gets minions earlier than level 5, undead or otherwise.

necromancers in 5e are doing great. their minions are tougher than everyone else's, they get more undead per spell than anyone else, and nobody else gets anything remotely like their ability to command powerful undead creatures (if you can find one, you can even gain control of a mummy lord... other powerful undead may be possible with the use of feeblemind to prepare the target).

not to mention the first 4 levels go by *really* quickly. seriously, have you looked at the exp requirements? level 5 is not that far off.

[Tanarii]

How are necromancers not better at raising undead than any other caster? Their class features make them boss.

Of course, your party may not appreciate having someone that's evil on their team. :p Best to check with them first.

[Rusvul]

Necromancy isn't inherently evil. Sure, it's unnerving and walks a dangerous line. But it doesn't have to be evil.

[Tanarii]

Necromancy isn't inherently evil. Sure, it's unnerving and walks a dangerous line. But it doesn't have to be evil.
In 5e raising undead is. Or at least, it's not good. The PHB specifically calls out that raising undead is not a good action, and only evil casters do it frequently. It's in the sidebar talking about schools of magic under Necromancy in the magic section.

IIRC it doesn't comment on Necromancy as a whole though. Just the act of raising undead.

As far as I know it's the only action that D&D 5e specifically assigns morality to.

[Rusvul]

...I stand corrected. That's not something I would have expected from 5e, given how divorced the crunch of the game is from alignment rules. Oh well, it's not a big deal to ignore the sidebar if you dislike it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Tanarii]

Yup. 5e Alignment is almost completely about being one aspect of a character's personality, their moral and social/order attitudes. Not actions. Basically, an RP tool to help a player get in character.

It was in a thread about what Alignment is that I became aware of this. The way it reads, it *could* still just be considered important info for a player to have when getting in character. But still, it's explicit that the action isn't good. Like I said, it's the only explicit specific action carrying morality that I know of in the PHB.

[Segev]

Hm. I had not considered that 5e exp is faster-progression than 3e. It can take a very long time to reach level 5-7 in a 3e game.

[Tanarii]

Side by side XP charts:
http://i.imgur.com/dc1NjI4.png

Of course, it doesn't mean that much without knowing the comparative rewards for defeating opponents.

Since I'm bored a break down of encounters to level to 5:
a character needs 6500 xp to reach level 5. Assuming they have mostly medium to hard encounter in group sizes of 2 (adjusted xp x1.5) or 3-6 (adjusted xp x2), they'll need:
6 to 12 encounters to reach level 2.
6 to 12 encounters to reach level 3.
12 to 24 encounters to reach level 4.
15 to 30 encounters to reach level 5.

That's 39 to 78 encounters. Generally speaking I personally expect about 50% of my xp awards to come from combat encounters. So lets cut that in half.

20 to 40 combat encounters might be faster than previous editions, but I don't consider it *fast*. That's still a lot of play time.

[Segev]

Disappointing, but... well, I suppose workable. Just a little frustrating to have to wait so long for signature powers. Ah well.

[Tanarii]

For comparison in 3e:

13 encounters per level * 4 levels = 52 encounters.

Divide by 2 = ~26 combat encounters.

I had a feeling the "level faster" thing was kind of a myth. The numbers show it to be so. At best, you're looking at twice the speed for level one and two only.

[Segev]

And 3e lets you manage minionmancy as early as level 1 with the right wizard (or even sorcerer) build.

[Corran]

....

Of course, your party may not appreciate having someone that's evil on their team. :p Best to check with them first.
Oh no......
You did that on purpose, didn't you?

[mephnick]

And 3e lets you manage minionmancy as early as level 1 with the right wizard (or even sorcerer) build.

Honestly I'd be happy it's in 5e at all. They've done their best to curtail minion BS in this edition.

[Segev]

Honestly I'd be happy it's in 5e at all. They've done their best to curtail minion BS in this edition.

"Be grateful the archetype you want to play is included at all" is not an encouraging thing to hear about an edition of a game.

[MaxWilson]

Honestly I'd be happy it's in 5e at all. They've done their best to curtail minion BS in this edition.

Not a very impressive best effort, unfortunately. Animate Dead and Conjure Animals are both incredibly strong, in slightly different ways. Animate Dead breaks concentration and action economy wide open; Conjure Animals requires concentration but provides an even better power-to-spell points ratio.

It is what it is, though, and I've noticed players voluntarily eschewing both of these techniques most of the time, maybe out of a perception that they constitute playing the game on Easy mode. (It's definitely not out of ignorance--my players are very, very aware of how brokenly strong the party Necromancer was, before he left the party and was replaced by his sister the Paladin. When things get really deadly, they joke about needing to bring him back to deal with the problem.)

[JoeJ]

In 5e raising undead is. Or at least, it's not good. The PHB specifically calls out that raising undead is not a good action, and only evil casters do it frequently. It's in the sidebar talking about schools of magic under Necromancy in the magic section.

IIRC it doesn't comment on Necromancy as a whole though. Just the act of raising undead.

As far as I know it's the only action that D&D 5e specifically assigns morality to.

All the undead that can be created by spells are evil and extremely dangerous. If the necromancer loses control for any reason, anybody nearby is at risk of being attacked and killed. Creating something like that may not be evil in every imaginable circumstance, but it usually involves at least a reckless disregard for the safety of others.

[MaxWilson]

All the undead that can be created by spells are evil and extremely dangerous. If the necromancer loses control for any reason, anybody nearby is at risk of being attacked and killed. Creating something like that may not be evil in every imaginable circumstance, but it usually involves at least a reckless disregard for the safety of others.

Yeah, in my game even the best-intentioned necromancy is seen as something akin to breeding sharks and releasing them into the community swimming pool. If the necromancer ever loses control they turn into murder machines.

Plus, they are creepy.

A sufficiently-antisocial necromancer may or may not care about either of those factors.

[Tanarii]

Oh no......
You did that on purpose, didn't you?
Who me? *tries to look innocent* hahahahaha

[Vogonjeltz]

Unless I've missed it somewhere, it looks like the command undead spell is gone from 5e.

It's been rolled into the spells that create undead, but now you just reassert control over undead that you personally have created. This obviously means that if undead get loose because their creator dies/can't control them all...they become dangerous uncontrolled killing machines.


...I stand corrected. That's not something I would have expected from 5e, given how divorced the crunch of the game is from alignment rules. Oh well, it's not a big deal to ignore the sidebar if you dislike it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It may not be a big deal to you the player, but per the description of the school of necromancy under the wizard class, most people see necromancers as villainous and necromancy is taboo in many societies. So...you'll probably run into alot of blowback unless you take efforts to hide it.

[eastmabl]

"Be grateful the archetype you want to play is included at all" is not an encouraging thing to hear about an edition of a game.

Minions break the action economy and slow down player turns.

5E hates both of those things, so it doesn't grant them until later levels.

[Rusvul]

Oh, absolutely. Necromancy (in terms of creating undead, at least) is unnerving, macabre, and often taboo- But I find the gray area of non-villainous Necromancy interesting. Meh. It's not super important, but I would have preferred that little paragraph be a little less black-and-white.

[JackPhoenix]

Oh, absolutely. Necromancy (in terms of creating undead, at least) is unnerving, macabre, and often taboo- But I find the gray area of non-villainous Necromancy interesting. Meh. It's not super important, but I would have preferred that little paragraph be a little less black-and-white.

That's more setting and DM dependant. Some may have animating undead be an unholy abomination inprisoning souls of the dead in their decaying bodies and always evil, some don't care, and for others it may be common aspect of life...necromancers creating (and controlling) undead laborers to take care of the hardest and most dangerous jobs.

[mephnick]

Minions break the action economy and slow down player turns.

Exactly. 3.5 style necromancy is (supposed to be) an anathema to the system.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly disappointed they didn't go through with limiting it more.

[Segev]

It's an interesting problem, trying to figure out how to make action deficit not a game-breaker. It's actually one of the hardest part of most systems to work out when it comes to doing "mass combat" of any sort, as well: when you compress large numbers of participants into one actor (e.g. a "combat group" that acts as a single unit), it almost invariably reduces the power of that group significantly below what it would be as individuals.