Questions concerning permanency!

[Melcar]

I was looking into what spells can be made permanent, but have found the list small, therefore I would like your oppinion on the following spells and how or whether or not you feel they could be viable. I know its up to the DM, but I would like your comments anyway!

Eyes of the Avoral (1)
See Invisibility (2)
Battlemagic Perception (3)
Deeper Darkvision (3)
Dragon Skin(3)
Detect Scrying (4)
Dragonsight (5)
Greater Anticipate Teleportation (6)
Protection from Spells (8)
Foresight (9)

What do your guys think?

[Flickerdart]

Down the list we go:

Eyes of the Avoral: A permanent +8 bonus to a skill is worth 6400gp as a magic item, and that's for enhancement. Racial is more obscure and should cost appropriately. I'd peg it as minimum level 10 & 1000xp.
See Invisibility: This is already on the list for the same price - level 10 and 1000xp.
Battlemagic Perception: Since it ends when you attempt to counterspell with it, it's not as powerful as it might have been when permanencied. It is, however, a unique ability. 11th level and 1500xp seems right.
Deeper Darkvision: Darkvision is already on the list, so why not? 11th level and 1500xp.
Dragon Skin: I don't know this spell.
Detect Scrying: It already lasts 24 hours, so having it up always is no problemo. 12th level and 2000xp.
Dragonsight: As an hours/level spell, permanency doesn't really break what it can already do. 13th level and 2500xp.
Greater Anticipate Teleport: 24 hour spell, go for it. 14th level and 3000xp.
Protection from Spells: +8 is too strong, but I'd allow Superior Resistance to be permanencied instead.
Foresight: No. Way too strong.

[Melcar]

Down the list we go:

Eyes of the Avoral: A permanent +8 bonus to a skill is worth 6400gp as a magic item, and that's for enhancement. Racial is more obscure and should cost appropriately. I'd peg it as minimum level 10 & 1000xp.
See Invisibility: This is already on the list for the same price - level 10 and 1000xp.
Battlemagic Perception: Since it ends when you attempt to counterspell with it, it's not as powerful as it might have been when permanencied. It is, however, a unique ability. 11th level and 1500xp seems right.
Deeper Darkvision: Darkvision is already on the list, so why not? 11th level and 1500xp.
Dragon Skin: I don't know this spell.
Detect Scrying: It already lasts 24 hours, so having it up always is no problemo. 12th level and 2000xp.
Dragonsight: As an hours/level spell, permanency doesn't really break what it can already do. 13th level and 2500xp.
Greater Anticipate Teleport: 24 hour spell, go for it. 14th level and 3000xp.
Protection from Spells: +8 is too strong, but I'd allow Superior Resistance to be permanencied instead.
Foresight: No. Way too strong.

Thank you for that detailed response.

[Shalist]

Worth a mention:




Spell name
School
Alarm
Abjuration

Animate Objects
Transmutation

Arcane Sight
Divination

Arcane Sight, Greater
Divination

Comprehend Languages
Divination

Dancing Lights
Evocation

Darkvision
Transmutation

Detect Magic
Divination

Enlarge Person
Transmutation

Ghost Sound
Illusion

Gust of Wind
Evocation

Invisibility
Illusion

Magic Fang
Transmutation

Magic Fang, Greater
Transmutation

Magic Mouth
Illusion

Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum
Abjuration

Permanency
Universal

Phase Door
Conjuration

Prismatic Sphere
Abjuration

Prismatic Wall
Abjuration

Rary's Telepathic Bond
Divination

Read Magic
Divination

Reduce Person
Transmutation

Resistance
Abjuration

See Invisibility
Divination

Shrink Item
Transmutation

Solid Fog
Conjuration

Stinking Cloud
Conjuration

Symbol of Death
Necromancy

Teleportation Circle
Conjuration

Tongues
Divination

Wall of Fire
Evocation

Wall of Force
Evocation

Web
Conjuration

Symbol (PHB 3.0) Universal



Other permanency-able spells (sortable table):


Spell name
School
Book
Black Sand
Necromancy
Sandstorm

Clearstone
Transmutation
Lost Empires of Faerûn

Curtain of Light
Evocation
Book of Exalted Deeds

Darsson's Chilling Chamber
Evocation
Shining South

Darsson's Cooling Breeze
Evocation
Shining South

Darsson's Fiery Furnace
Evocation
Shining South

Distracting Shadows
Evocation
Magic of Eberron

Dragonmark Symbol
Abjuration
Dragonmarked

Ice Web
Conjuration
Frostburn

Improved Enlarge
Transmutation
Savage Species (3.0)

Improved Reduce
Transmutation
Savage Species (3.0)

Sense of the Dragon
Transmutation
Races of the Dragon

Silvered Claws
Transmutation
Book of Exalted Deeds

Silvered Weapon
Transmutation
Book of Exalted Deeds

Skull Watch
Necromancy
Player's Guide to Faerûn

Wall of Coldfire
Evocation
Frostburn

Wall of Magma
Conjuration
Sandstorm

Wall of Moonlight
Evocation
Player's Guide to Faerûn

Wall of Sand
Conjuration
Sandstorm

Wall of Water
Conjuration
Sandstorm

[TomeGnome]

Honestly, the creators put a lot of thought into balancing things. It's always going to be up to your DM, but many of those effects you want to make permanent would change the balance of a game. I would be very hesitant to allow extra effects as a DM.

[Jack_Simth]

If it helps, there's a simple formula that perfectly matches the Caster level requirement and the XP cost on the core spells to which Permanency applies:

First: Spell level for cantrips is treated as 1, rather than 1/2 or 0, for purposes of calculations.
XP cost = Spell Level * 500 xp
Minimum Caster Level = Spell Level + 8

[Troacctid]

Honestly, the creators put a lot of thought into balancing things. It's always going to be up to your DM, but many of those effects you want to make permanent would change the balance of a game. I would be very hesitant to allow extra effects as a DM.

I mostly balance them like I would magic items with continuous effects, since that's basically what they are. There are a couple key differences, but the basic idea is fundamentally the same.

[Melcar]

Honestly, the creators put a lot of thought into balancing things. It's always going to be up to your DM, but many of those effects you want to make permanent would change the balance of a game. I would be very hesitant to allow extra effects as a DM.

Could yuu elaborate on this? Most of the spells have long durations, and thus should not change the balance that much...

[Graypairofsocks]

You can arguably use Permanency on (Rary's) Interplanar Telepathic Bond.

[Andezzar]

Honestly, the creators put a lot of thought into balancing things. It's always going to be up to your DM, but many of those effects you want to make permanent would change the balance of a game. I would be very hesitant to allow extra effects as a DM.All of the personal range spells that the OP suggested can already be made "permanent" through persistent spell (you may need some way to reduce the metamagic cost on those above level 3)

[Âmesang]

You can arguably use Permanency on (Rary's) Interplanar Telepathic Bond.
That's what I did. The way I see it, if the spell says it works just like another permaneciable (?) spell, and it doesn't specifically say you can't make it permanent (like greater arcane sight or mass darkvision), then it's fair game.

Just compare its level/permanency prerequisites with spells of the same level.

[Andezzar]

The way I see it, if the spell says it works just like another permaneciable (?) spell, and it doesn't specifically say you can't make it permanent (like greater arcane sight or mass darkvision), then it's fair game.The rules however disagree with you.
This spell makes certain other spells permanent. Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a number of XP.
You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.
[...]
In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).
[...]
Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent.
[...]
The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent. Researching this possible application of a spell costs as much time and money as independently researching the selected spell (see the Dungeon Master’s Guide for details). If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. Note that you never learn what is possible except by the success or failure of your research.
So only the spells in those lists can definitely be made permanent. Spells from other books can be made permanent if they say so (and you do not look to hard at the primary source rule). All other spells are subject to the DM's whim.

[Âmesang]

Just seems kind of peculiar to point out some spells being ineligible for permanency in their text (like mass darkvision), but not others (like interplanar telepathic bond). :smallconfused: Especially when both spells can be found in the same sourcebook (Spell Compendium, p.59 and p.125, respectively) and begin with "this spell functions like…"

[Andezzar]

What I wrote was the general rule. For specific spells that function like other spells and so gain the ability to be made permanent, you have to explicitly state if they are not supposed to be made permanent (or any other restrictions not applicable to the base spell). All other spells aren't allowed unless either their descriptions or your DM tells you that they can be made permanent.

[Jack_Simth]

Just seems kind of peculiar to point out some spells being ineligible for permanency in their text (like mass darkvision), but not others (like interplanar telepathic bond). :smallconfused: Especially when both spells can be found in the same sourcebook (Spell Compendium, p.59 and p.125, respectively) and begin with "this spell functions like…"

How is it peculiar? Spell Compendium is a Compendium. It's a big listing of spells from other places. Sure, they did some tweaks and a little editing... but you've got a lot of different people involved in the editing, and even more in authoring and editing the original sources. Consistency is HARD in that sort of circumstance, and WotC doesn't exactly have the best track record for that.

[martixy]

Well let me tell you about my experience.
My group's been using expanded permanency almost universally and so far it's been good - it acts as an intermediary between items and spells.
It's still up to the DM since no one knows all the spells, but apart from the obvious things like Time Stop and Summoning spells, very few are not permanenciable.

We haven't really had any balance problems and here's why: Our enemies haven't been stupid or selectively ignorant.
Everything we can throw at others has also been thrown at us many times over.
Here's a few things we've learned the hard way:
1. It is unpleasant having a major buff you're relying on dispelled in the 1st round of combat.
2. Disjunction is really painful.
3. You need contingencies for everything. Anti-magic fields become your friend.
4. Edit: Another balance point I forgot - we don't use XP, so XP costs are paid in diamonds at 1:5 ratio. And flushing so much money down the toilet with a dispel is also rather painful. So even in an XP-game you might replace the XP component with a converted material component.

The point is - permanency is useful for RP-related spells or certain situational buffs where you don't want to be casting the same spell over and over every few minutes or so, but not so much for your main buffs.

For example Foresight, which Flick flat-out dismissed - it would be useful as an RP tool, but in combat chances are you've already won or lost before entering the first round - it is a 9th level spell, so we're deep into high-level play at this point. As Sun-Tsu said, a good warrior first wins the battle, then enters combat. High-level play is all about outsmarting your opponent - this is what makes it fun.
So a little advance warning isn't going to do ya much good. And neither is +2 AC going to be the deciding factor in anything. And only if it doesn't get immediately dispelled being such a high-level spell.

I've yet to DM for my group, but I've also been looking on the issue of permanency and I've come up with a simple set of rules:
First of all making Permanency a level 6 spell, cuz it makes it neatly 10 + whatever like the rest of D&D, but mainly because it is now also a much stronger spell.

- Requires a Caster / Manifester Level of 10 + Spell Level + Duration modifier.
- The Duration Modifier is added only when a spell is being permanencied upon a creature(including Warforged), not upon objects, locations or other targets.
- The Duration Modifier is based on the duration of the spell being permanencied:
-1 for day, day/level or longer
+0 for hour/level
+1 for 10 min/level spells
+2 for 1 min/level spells
+4 for 1 round/level spells
+8 for 1 round spells
- If the spell requires concentration add +2.
- Permanencying a spell costs 500 XP * the level of the spell, in case it wasn't obvious.
Obviously I've yet to test this in play, so take it with a grain of salt, but it seems to me like a rather elegant solution on paper.

So for example, foresight would be permanenciable at level 18. But something like Wraithstrike(a 2nd level spell) - not before level 20. And True Strike is still useless.

[Âmesang]

What I wrote was the general rule. For specific spells that function like other spells and so gain the ability to be made permanent, you have to explicitly state if they are not supposed to be made permanent (or any other restrictions not applicable to the base spell). All other spells aren't allowed unless either their descriptions or your DM tells you that they can be made permanent.
So… we agree? :smallconfused: 'Cause that was kind of my point; if Spell B functions like Spell A, and Spell A can be made permanent with permanency, Spell B can be made permanent… unless it specifically says it can't.

As an alternate example, superior magic fang doesn't say it functions like magic fang, and it doesn't say it can be made permanent in its text, so I'd be of the belief that it couldn't be made permanent without a referee's say-so.

*shrugs* Of course talk like this reminds me of why I hate Mordenkainen's disjunction so much. :smalleek:

[martixy]

*shrugs* Of course talk like this reminds me of why I hate Mordenkainen's disjunction so much. :smalleek:

I can't tell if you're very passionate or merely dislike/are not used to high-level play.

You could always counterspell, or if you are ambushed, use Contingency anti-magic fields to counteract Disjunction. It's highly effective before epic(as in before high CL).

I, for one, love the volatility of the higher levels.

At level 15+ if I get all my items disjoined and permanencies nullified, I don't consider my DM vindictive, I just consider myself a moron.

[Saito Takuji]

how about Prestidigitation, just a cantrip yeah but fun at least flavor wise

[Âmesang]

I can't tell if you're very passionate or merely dislike/are not used to high-level play.

You could always counterspell, or if you are ambushed, use Contingency anti-magic fields to counteract Disjunction. It's highly effective before epic(as in before high CL).
I actually enjoy the challenge of high-level play and trying to find counters to regular, but difficult, threats and "being prepared" (even if I'm playing a spontaneous caster).

…but it's also the "artist" in me that hates that particular spell, that hates working hard on something for so long just to have it get wiped out so easily, whether it's an illustration, a computer program, or permanent spells, especially since you really can't "back up" permanent spells. :smalltongue: Also I'm currently using my sorceress' contingency on heal (based on a late-level ability of the spirit shaman), though I have been trying to utilize her standard actions to ready for counterspells if she's not doing anything else in particular. With permanent arcane sight, detect magic, see invisibility, and a healthy Spellcraft modifier, she should be ready to counter as long as she's not flat-footed… and besides, what else is she going to use those standard actions for when just strolling through town?

Now if disjunction allowed a saving throw for each spell (as it does items), or if it utilized caster level checks (like dispel magic), I wouldn't mind so much; it's why I like the idea of an "epic dispel" using the epic spell rules, 'cause even with a bonus jacked up high there's still some chance of failure… theoretically. Though technically her familiar received the benefit of a minor artifact (Amaranth elixir from the Shackled City Adventure Path), so maybe if disjoined the opposing spellcaster still runs the risk of losing his spellcasting? Maybe?

[martixy]

You do have a point of course.

Which is why I've also been thinking of some variants to lessen the impact of Disjunction, but still preserve its "game brakiness"(which I do consider a feature, not a flaw).
Say... something like permanencied spells receiving a saving throw with a bonus equal to the spell's level on a bare d20 roll.
It still puts all spells at an indisputable disadvantage(you'd have to beat 10+the caster's casting stat on a roll and in high level play it can be optimized to the point of saving only on a 20 - with a casting stat of 28 or more, which is easily achievable by those levels), but the mere presence of a save opens options for shenaningans - say finding a way to auto-save that critical thing you want to save(surge of fortune, change fate, limited wish). Increases options for players and makes things even more tactical.

Never for normally cast spells though!
You see, Disjunction is a vital tool in managing the action economy(on both ends).
On higher levels the amount of pre-combat buffing gets ridiculus!

A disjunction opener basically acts as a reset, wiping out all those rounds the party spent buffing from the action economy of that encounter.
Which again creates decisions for players.

For example, whereas before it was: Of course we should buff before combat(a non-decision - like natural spell for a druid), it now becomes - which of these buffs do we critically need right the hell now, what the best use of my actions - buffing my guy, controlling the battlefield, or blasting that group of mooks which may overwhelm our front-liner(s) in the next round or two.

On that note, thinking about this gave me the following idea for an item:
If you are subject to disjunction, you can redirect the energies of the spells being disjoined to reinforce and shield your other magic.
For each spell being disjoined, you may grant half its spell level(round down) as a bonus on the save on another magical effect currently affecting you.
This is capable of granting other spells a save they would not have normally received, or can be used to better safeguard your most important possessions.

[Notes: While getting a max of +4 on a spell does you very little good on a bare d20 roll vs these DCs, going from 0% chance to 5% chance(a nat20) on saving is still an infinite increase.]