Bladesinger with War Magic

[blackheartz]

One of my players is becoming obsessed with the subject and I would like some help to make a decision. Would changing the extra attack feature with the 7th level EK ability War Magic break the Bladesinger subclass?

[JohnDoe]

He's obsessed with it because it would be very very powerful.

If he really wants that bonus attack, he can use Haste, which he'll have at level 5. This will allow him to cast a spell + attack @ 5.

The EK doesn't get haste until much later (12). EK uses Warmagic as a situational alternative to more attacks at higher levels. You're giving the wizard one of the keystone abilities of the caster-fighter, that the EK needs to make up for not having haste until much later. (You're also a full wizard)

It would set you way ahead of the EK for quite some time. Cantrips already scale in parallel with extra attacks. 2d10 @ 5, 3d10 @11, 4d10 @17 (rather than the fighter @ 20)

With Haste he'd be getting 2 attacks + 2d10 @ 7, +int to melee @ 14 (2 attacks + int + dex + 3d10) up to +4d10 @ 17 in addition to essentially having improved war magic @ 5 (spell+attack)

You'll want haste for disengaging anyway. Haste would also allow you to make 3 weapon attacks with +int & dex @ 14, in addition to allowing you to cast a spell and make a melee attack, which war magic doesn't allow you to do until improved war magic.

It will last 1 minute on top of his bladesong.


Freeing up that concentration for the wizard could be very, very powerful, and you'll likely be using haste anyway to essentially have improved war magic @ lvl 5.

Multiclassing also isn't out of the question. 10/10 EK/BS will give you Eldritch Strike to undercut resistance and grant disadvantage on the creature's next saving throw. You'll pick up action surge, con saves, hit die, a fighting style, etc.

Or he could just go straight EK. If you want to be as good of a fighter as the EK, and have 9th level casting, that's a bit much.

[Tanarii]

He also wants it because BB/GFB with an attack is far more powerful than 2 attacks or BB/GFB alone.

It's not even close to a fair trade in.

[CaptAl]

Extra attack does feel out of place with a Bladesinger. Mathematically, though, it provides an interesting decision for the player. Sometimes extra attack is more powerful than a cantrip. With war magic replacing extra attack you take away that choice. It would effectively mean the Bladesinger gets cantrip plus attack every round without expending any resources.

At level 6 the singer could get a D8+3 weapon strike plus booming blade strike for 2d8+3 damage with a possible 2d8 rider if the target moves with war magic every round. That's a massive damage spike. Add in a haste spell and the Bladesinger is out damaging everyone in the party.

I play a Bladesinger and even I think that's too much.

[JohnDoe]

Extra attack does feel out of place with a Bladesinger. Mathematically, though, it provides an interesting decision for the player. Sometimes extra attack is more powerful than a cantrip. With war magic replacing extra attack you take away that choice. It would effectively mean the Bladesinger gets cantrip plus attack every round without expending any resources.

At level 6 the singer could get a D8+3 weapon strike plus booming blade strike for 2d8+3 damage with a possible 2d8 rider if the target moves with war magic every round. That's a massive damage spike. Add in a haste spell and the Bladesinger is out damaging everyone in the party.

I play a Bladesinger and even I think that's too much.

I think most people overlook haste @ lvl 5

If he really wants to be a fighter caster, he could go EK. EK has Eldritch Strikes, Imp war magic + haste for spell+attack+attack, Action Surge, etc.

He could also go Valor Bard to get Battle Magic @ 14, magical secrets, and be a full caster. You could even pick up bladesong without giving up your 9th level spells.

[CaptAl]

I think most people overlook haste @ lvl 5

If he really wants to be a fighter caster, he could go EK. EK has Eldritch Strikes, Imp war magic + haste for spell+attack+attack, Action Surge, etc.

He could also go Valor Bard to get Battle Magic @ 14, magical secrets, and be a full caster. You could even pick up bladesong without giving up your 9th level spells.

A Bladesinger is a wizard who doesn't suck at melee. Not a fighter who is an excellent spellcaster. I'm in complete agreement. Swapping extra attack for war magic is too powerful with 0 resource or opportunity cost.

[Tanarii]

More to the point, War Magic gives up 1-3 attacks for (at PHB release) a generally weaker ranged cantrip. Not 1 attack for a powerful melee cantrip that's a melee attack + effect.

Seriously tho, whomever designed BB & GFB clearly didn't put much thought into it.

[blackheartz]

Thanks for the answers guys!!! I think there is a clear consensus on the matter, no War Magic for Blasdesinger. :smallcool:

[Corran]

Extra attack does feel out of place with a Bladesinger. Mathematically, though, it provides an interesting decision for the player. Sometimes extra attack is more powerful than a cantrip.
Extra attack also lets the bladesinger use a bow, which I think it was thematically intended.

To the op, dont give war magic to the bladesinger. As suggested by everyone else in this thread, it is like giving him free power at no cost.

[Dalebert]

Agree. Playing a BS myself and I love him. He needs no buffing.

[Malifice]

One of my players is becoming obsessed with the subject and I would like some help to make a decision. Would changing the extra attack feature with the 7th level EK ability War Magic break the Bladesinger subclass?

If he wants war magic he takes 7 levels of Fighter.

The limited usefulness of extra attack (its still useful vs hordes) is balanced against the other BS class features.

[MaxWilson]

Extra attack also lets the bladesinger use a bow, which I think it was thematically intended.

To the op, dont give war magic to the bladesinger. As suggested by everyone else in this thread, it is like giving him free power at no cost.

Since Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is a thing, Extra Attack also lets the Bladesinger grapple/prone an enemy in a single turn.

[Longcat]

Extra Attack is also better because it allows the Bladesinger to pick up Crossbow Expert for competitive at will damage.

[Corran]

Since Rogue 2/Bladesinger X is a thing, Extra Attack also lets the Bladesinger grapple/prone an enemy in a single turn.
I hadn't thought of that. Well, he can already do that as strictly a bladesinger. Though a dip in rogue allows him to be more successful in doing so (plus that is another reason why this dip is so fun!). Which makes me in turn think, of a reason for a bladesinger to not dump str. Dont have the scag book with me, but I wish there is sth in all that fluff about bladesingers using str weapons, that at least implies there is a bladesinging school that focuses on spells like enlarge and uses one hand str weapons and that they grapple opponents. That would at least bring some mechanical viability (or at the very least the basis of a plan/idea) to all this IMO (dont mean to start a war over this) mechanically poorly supported fluff.

[Ajmes]

One of my players is becoming obsessed with the subject and I would like some help to make a decision. Would changing the extra attack feature with the 7th level EK ability War Magic break the Bladesinger subclass?

What about a compromise? What about making him take a feat to make the effects of that feature cost a spell slot? This way he's giving up stats for something which costs resources? You could also limit it to a certain number of times per short rest, and once per round? Just a thought; if your player is upset by the whole thing. I believe that addresses the primary concerns of balance, while giving your player an option that mostly fulfills what they wanted in the first place? =)

[DanyBallon]

What about a compromise? What about making him take a feat to make the effects of that feature cost a spell slot? This way he's giving up stats for something which costs resources? You could also limit it to a certain number of times per short rest, and once per round? Just a thought; if your player is upset by the whole thing. I believe that addresses the primary concerns of balance, while giving your player an option that mostly fulfills what they wanted in the first place? =)

If you go the feat route, I'd say, create an exclusive feat which has Bladesinger as a prerequisite and it could be used only when your Bladesong is active and only once per Bladesong. This way it justify the prerequisite and and "somehow" limit the use of War Magic. I'd also wouldn't allow the feat to be available before 8th level so EK won't be outshined by some feat that mimic their main feature.

[blackheartz]

What about a compromise? What about making him take a feat to make the effects of that feature cost a spell slot? This way he's giving up stats for something which costs resources? You could also limit it to a certain number of times per short rest, and once per round? Just a thought; if your player is upset by the whole thing. I believe that addresses the primary concerns of balance, while giving your player an option that mostly fulfills what they wanted in the first place? =)


If you go the feat route, I'd say, create an exclusive feat which has Bladesinger as a prerequisite and it could be used only when your Bladesong is active and only once per Bladesong. This way it justify the prerequisite and and "somehow" limit the use of War Magic. I'd also wouldn't allow the feat to be available before 8th level so EK won't be outshined by some feat that mimic their main feature.


War Magic as it is, would be too powerful to be added in the class but the feat ideas gave me some of my own. What if the ability was tied to the bladesong(like the rest) and looked something like this

Song of Fury: While your Bladesong is active you can forgo the bonus to your AC until the start of your next turn in order to benefit from the War Magic class feature for the round.

[blackheartz]

War Magic as it is, would be too powerful to be added in the class but the feat ideas gave me some of my own. What if the ability was tied to the bladesong(like the rest) and looked something like this

Song of Fury: While your Bladesong is active you can forgo the bonus to your AC until the start of your next turn in order to benefit from the War Magic class feature for the round.

Alternatively maybe War Magic can be usable in Bladesong, once per Intelligence modifier bonus and will recharge with a long rest. This way, with 18 Intelligence for example, the ability would be usable 4 times per day spread as the character wishes in her bladesong turns.

[JohnDoe]

Alternatively maybe War Magic can be usable in Bladesong, once per Intelligence modifier bonus and will recharge with a long rest. This way, with 18 Intelligence for example, the ability would be usable 4 times per day spread as the character wishes in her bladesong turns.

They can already cantrip+attack @ 5th level. They can also spell+attack @ 5th level.

OR 3 attacks @ 5th

Haste.

The EK can only cantrip + attack @ 7th
Haste @ 11
Spell + attack @ 18.

-------He's complaining that the EK will be able to Cantrip + Attack, +attack @ 11 with haste.
-------Then he'll be complaining that EK will be able to Spell + Attack, +attack @ 18 with Improved War Caster.

Lesson: if you want to melee attack so much, be an Eldritch Knight.

Otherwise, be happy that you can 3rd level Spell + attack @ 5, which the EK won't be doing until 18.