CWB only summons sprites in AL!

[Dalebert]

This makes me think they realize they broke some things when they wrote this spell. The summoning options are pretty pathetic for Conjure Minor Elementals as well--only a gargoyle.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468694-Official-List-of-AL-Legal-Creatures-for-Spells-Abilities

[hymer]

The summoning options are pretty pathetic for Conjure Minor Elementals as well--only a gargoyle.

I think that's meant to mean that you only get one option at CR 2 - gargoyle. There are still options for lower CRs.

[Dalebert]

I'm digging a little deeper into the sources of this thread and the sweater appears to be unraveling a bit. Maybe folks can help me decipher. That link is actually a copypasta from this source:

http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_%28FAQ% 29#What_creatures_are_available_for_use_in_various _conjuring_spells.3F

I'm not sure of the authority of this source. The thing is, it seem to be an attempt at an exhaustive list based on this paragraph from this source:

http://dndadventurersleague.org/faq-for-432015/

But if so, then it may be mistaken because that paragraph clearly allows the DM to pick creatures from the MM if there is "no appropriate creature" and I'm pretty sure a sprite is not an appropriate creature if the caster requests a CR 1 or CR 2 creature.

[Daehron]

Yes, summoners can be quite nerfed in AL, depending on how your DM want's to rule things.

The convoluted rules are all due to those damn pixies.

That and the desire by the folks at WotC in charge of the AL to make it as open as possible to players/DMs - who may not have all the rule books. All 'approved' sources are from either the PHB, or the publicly available DM Basic rules.

The decision makers are aware of the odd constraints this places on players / DMs in AL. They know people are less than pleased. The FAQ linked by the OP was produced in consultation with the powers that be and is the 'go to' list of approved summonable creatures.

Rule 0 still stands: the DM can determine what is appropriate at her/his own table within the general guidelines. (For example, pixies will never be summoned at my table, unless I am feeling especially childish and then set the pixies on a polymorph binge. Party members are all mosquitoes!)

[JakOfAllTirades]

I've seen so many "summoning nerfs" in this edition (in reaction to summoning shenanigans from prior editions, I guess) that I've pretty much sworn off any and all use of summoning spells in 5E. It's just not worth the trouble any more.

[Kryx]

It's also due to how unbalanced the lower CRs can be in terms of power. Especially compare to the others. See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?470955-Conjure-Spells-in-5E&p=20267660#post20267660 where I discuss why it would be better for CR 1/2 to be 3 creatures (instead of 4) and CR 1/4 to be 6 creatures (instead of 8).

[Dralnu]

I've seen so many "summoning nerfs" in this edition (in reaction to summoning shenanigans from prior editions, I guess) that I've pretty much sworn off any and all use of summoning spells in 5E. It's just not worth the trouble any more.

That's not true at all. Summoning a swarm of low CR monsters is stupidly strong in this edition, too strong. Druids singlehandedly end encounters with swarms of wolves / elk / pixies; wizards do similar with mephits and others.

[MaxWilson]

That's not true at all. Summoning a swarm of low CR monsters is stupidly strong in this edition, too strong. Druids singlehandedly end encounters with swarms of wolves / elk / pixies; wizards do similar with mephits and others.

This. Even just looking at the "AL legal monsters" according to that link (I don't play AL so have no idea if it's correct), look at these options for Conjure Animals:


Beasts (CR 1/4): boar, constrictor snake, panther, riding horse, wolf

There's not a single one of those creatures that isn't worth having 8 of for a single 3rd level spell, especially in a party with good ranged attacks. The worst one on the list is the riding horse, and aside from its noncombat uses, even if you got 8 riding horses every single time you cast the spell that would still be 104 free HP of meat doing 16d4+24 damage (at +2 to attack). All the bad guys will die, trampled by wild horses like a Nazgul wraith at Rivendell...

And commanding them doesn't even cost you any action economy. And the spell gets four times stronger if you cast it out of a fifth level slot. (Double HP, double damage = four times stronger.)

[Dalebert]

Pretty much. My favorite thing to do with my druid was summon a pack of wolves. If you can't fly, you're done for. I turned an encounter with a stone giant into a joke with those wolves. Sure, he could kill them off, but he wasted attacks doing it and meanwhile, they kept chomping him and knocking him prone.

I'm actually more prone to summon two dryads and have them immediately summon me 40 goodberries and then cast Pass without Trace on my party and stick around to charm any animals. It's broken. Any spell that gets you more spells is like wishing for more wishes.

[Kryx]

Max and Dralnu, what do you guys do cut down on the low CR creatures? Do you reduce the lower CRs as I have done? (Thinking about it now probably best to have 5 instead of 8 on the last even if the XP isn't perfectly aligned. Still incredibly strong).

[hymer]

I'm actually more prone to summon two dryads and have them immediately summon me 40 goodberries

Why stop at 40? Or are they errata'ed and I didn't notice?

[Dalebert]

Why stop at 40? Or are they errata'ed and I didn't notice?

My memory may be bad but I thought they could each cast Goodberry 2 times per day. It might actually be 3 times per day now that I think about it.

[hymer]

My memory may be bad but I thought they could each cast Goodberry 2 times per day. It might actually be 3 times per day now that I think about it.

That's the number I remember (and just looked up to be sure), too. :smallsmile:

[Kryx]

It's broken. Any spell that gets you more spells is like wishing for more wishes.
So what's the solution? Removing all spells would be fine, but then options like conjure celestial is garbage (it was only good for Couatl spell spam).

What do you do in home games?

[Mr.Moron]

So what's the solution? Removing all spells would be fine, but then options like conjure celestial is garbage (it was only good for Couatl spell spam).

What do you do in home games?

I did a homebrew summoner class a while back that gave options for a lot more frequent summoning, even at-will for the weakest creatures. The rule contained a clause roughly to the effect of:

"Summoned creatures that can cast spells must use your spell slots to do so".

This means that while summoning a spell-casting creature may give access to new spells (their list may have things you don't) and increased throughput (both you and the creature can cast spells in the same round) it caps your overall spell resources to what you had originally. In other words it gives tangible utility to summoning spell casting creatures without them busting your resource allotment wide open.

If someone was looking to tamp down on the power of summoning spell-using creatures without removing that elemental entirely it might work as a house rule.

[Dralnu]

Max and Dralnu, what do you guys do cut down on the low CR creatures? Do you reduce the lower CRs as I have done? (Thinking about it now probably best to have 5 instead of 8 on the last even if the XP isn't perfectly aligned. Still incredibly strong).

Haven't needed to do anything yet since thankfully no one has played with those spells yet in my games. If they did, I'd let them test it out and then yeah probably reduce the lower CRs. Have yet to enforce houserules but that may push me towards it.

[MaxWilson]

Max and Dralnu, what do you guys do cut down on the low CR creatures? Do you reduce the lower CRs as I have done? (Thinking about it now probably best to have 5 instead of 8 on the last even if the XP isn't perfectly aligned. Still incredibly strong).

My players both voluntarily tend to eschew summoning spells unless they're about to die, and also voluntarily take on oversized challenges (like boarding a neogi deathspider stuffed with dozens of umber hulks, at about level 11). They also don't spend a lot of time in combat, and when there is a trivialized combat which they've proved they can easily handle, I often just skip to the end and narrate the fight in a few seconds. So, as a DM, it hasn't been an issue.

As a player, I simply pursue harder challenges when I'm running a stronger character. (C.f. Czege's Law.) I play 5E as a roleplaying game, and that means you accept the world you live in as it is and act appropriately.

Some things are strong and fun, some are weak and boring, some are weak and fun, some are strong and boring (either intrinsically or because you've already had your fill of that kind of fun for now). Fiddling with the strong-vs.-weak axis isn't necessary IMO, because what matters is fun-vs.-boring. Play D&D until it stops being fun, and then do something else.

[JakOfAllTirades]

That's not true at all. Summoning a swarm of low CR monsters is stupidly strong in this edition, too strong. Druids singlehandedly end encounters with swarms of wolves / elk / pixies; wizards do similar with mephits and others.

I'd agree, if it weren't for Sage Advice ruling that the DM, not the player, chooses which monsters get summoned. This is ridiculous, and I've got no use for it.

[MaxWilson]

I'd agree, if it weren't for Sage Advice ruling that the DM, not the player, chooses which monsters get summoned. This is ridiculous, and I've got no use for it.

1.) You can ask your DM in advance what his ruling is: random tables, "player chooses", "determined by environment," "determined by DM whim." All are consistent with RAW.

2.) When it comes to Conjure Animals, there are no bad CR 1/4 choices. All of them are stupidly strong, unless your DM does something truly idiotic like giving you a bunch of fish on dry land. In which case, you can punch him in the face and walk out.

[JakOfAllTirades]

1.) You can ask your DM in advance what his ruling is: random tables, "player chooses", "determined by environment," "determined by DM whim." All are consistent with RAW.

2.) When it comes to Conjure Animals, there are no bad CR 1/4 choices. All of them are stupidly strong, unless your DM does something truly idiotic like giving you a bunch of fish on dry land. In which case, you can punch him in the face and walk out.

Define "stupidly strong" for me. What if I need something specific? I might need a flying creature to fight something in the air, but end up getting a wild boar instead of an eagle. Or whatever the equivalent CR is for "useless thing in this context with no flying speed." Not my idea of a good time.

You can say "Trust the DM" or "Walk away from the table" all day long, but I don't care for either of those options: I know I can trust Agonizing Blast.

[MaxWilson]

Define "stupidly strong" for me. What if I need something specific? I might need a flying creature to fight something in the air, but end up getting a wild boar instead of an eagle. Or whatever the equivalent CR is for "useless thing in this context with no flying speed." Not my idea of a good time.

You can say "Trust the DM" or "Walk away from the table" all day long, but I don't care for either of those options: I know I can trust Agonizing Blast.

Sounds like you play AL.

[Dralnu]

Define "stupidly strong" for me. What if I need something specific? I might need a flying creature to fight something in the air, but end up getting a wild boar instead of an eagle. Or whatever the equivalent CR is for "useless thing in this context with no flying speed." Not my idea of a good time.

You can say "Trust the DM" or "Walk away from the table" all day long, but I don't care for either of those options: I know I can trust Agonizing Blast.

I don't see in the spell description anything about the DM choosing the creatures. Is that an AL thing?

If it is, you're right: if you're on an open field and being attacked by a Roc, casting Conjure Animals and the DM picking for you a school of quippers that flop around on the ground would be bad. That doesn't make it a bad spell, it's just the DM being astoundingly mean to you.

You can complain about any spell in a similar fashion.

"Fireball is terrible! What if you come across a monster or two with fire resistance? Worse, what if you end up on the Plane of Fire and have to fight fire elementals and salamanders and efreeti for the entire campaign? Ugh, terrible spell! I should use Agonizing Blast only!"

"Agonizing Blast is garbage! It can't do damage to all these Rakshashas! What a worthless cantrip! I should just use a bow, at least that's always reliable!"

"Bows are useless!" etc.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see in the spell description anything about the DM choosing the creatures.

The spell description says you choose the creature type. TSR Grognards read that and tend to assume that the actual creature summoned is determined randomly based on a table, because that's how things used to work. New kids raised on WotC D&D tend to assume that the caster gets to choose what creature is summoned.

The devs have clarified that they don't care which method you use, and the DM can decide. As a DM, I choose mephits based on the casting environment (just like the Conjure Elemental spell explicitly says happens when you cast it), I let the caster choose for Conjure Animals (because the spell says they're not real animals, they're spirits that assume the forms of the animals), and for Woodland Creatures I choose based on what woodland creatures are in the vicinity--which in practice means a table. (And I also treat Pixies as CR 1, not CR 1/4. They're on the same tier as Dryads.)

[Dralnu]

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:
• One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
• Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
• Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.
The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions.
The DM has the creatures’ statistics.

Seems open-ended, yeah.

I'd let the caster choose what beasts show up but probably would lower the amount of low CR beasts that appear.

[SharkForce]

think the DM choosing thing is in one of their sage advice articles (not the twitter thing that someone put together, the actual articles on the D&D website).

naturally, YMMV on that.

[MaxWilson]

think the DM choosing thing is in one of their sage advice articles (not the twitter thing that someone put together, the actual articles on the D&D website).

naturally, YMMV on that.

Might as well quote from the article in question (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf):



When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings,
does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that
are conjured? A number of spells in the game let you summon
creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure
minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a
few examples.
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster
chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar
gives the caster a list of animals to choose from.
Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from
among several broad options. For example, conjure minor
elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster
chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what
creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example,
if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals
that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower.
A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what
creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if
they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate
for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce
in a scene.

Emphasis added.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Might as well quote from the article in question (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf):



Emphasis added.

Thank you.

[Vogonjeltz]

1.) You can ask your DM in advance what his ruling is: random tables, "player chooses", "determined by environment," "determined by DM whim." All are consistent with RAW.

2.) When it comes to Conjure Animals, there are no bad CR 1/4 choices. All of them are stupidly strong, unless your DM does something truly idiotic like giving you a bunch of fish on dry land. In which case, you can punch him in the face and walk out.

Well, no. Only DM choice is consistent with RAW, and it's also the only one consistent with RAI. If your DM wants to instead go to RAF (rules as fun) that's plausibly fine though.

[SharkForce]

Well, no. Only DM choice is consistent with RAW, and it's also the only one consistent with RAI. If your DM wants to instead go to RAF (rules as fun) that's plausibly fine though.

RAW doesn't say who chooses or how (or at least, didn't until the sage advice article). there was absolutely no indication who was to choose or how. so far as i'm aware, they're still sticking with the original language in the PHB, which means that for anyone who doesn't live on the internet checking to see if the devs have issued errata outside of the errata on the matter, RAW still doesn't say a thing either way. it is equally valid to claim that it is DM choice or player choice or randomly decided or any number of other methods of determining what shows up as far as RAW is concerned.

[Mara]

RAW doesn't say who chooses or how (or at least, didn't until the sage advice article). there was absolutely no indication who was to choose or how. so far as i'm aware, they're still sticking with the original language in the PHB, which means that for anyone who doesn't live on the internet checking to see if the devs have issued errata outside of the errata on the matter, RAW still doesn't say a thing either way. it is equally valid to claim that it is DM choice or player choice or randomly decided or any number of other methods of determining what shows up as far as RAW is concerned.

From a game design perspective:

1. Completely random could have some benefit but the spell lacks the tables for that.

2. DM picking is an absolutely trash RAW for the spell and any dev who thought that was a good idea needs a new job.

3. Player picking is only a problem if the CR system is flaw, which isn't the spells fault

Sage Advice decided that 2 was good idea, which means 5e just has bad devs managing it. That's fine. No game is perfect and it gives me a good reason not to blanket allow splat material. I was also able to enjoy pathfinder again when I realized just how poor of a game 5e is intended to be by the devs. 5e being better than other systems depends entirely on the DM's ability or in some cases the DM's ability not to read dev twitter post.