Low-level surviving character

[Willie the Duck]

Here is my situation: My friend "X" is playing 3.5 with us. He played a barbarian/sorcerer/Eldritch Knight in our last campaign, which was his first time playing 3rd edition. While none of the other players died once, he died 6 times. Some was unfamiliarity with the 'new' system, some was poor choices, some was luck.

We started a new campaign, and this time we are going to take our time through the low levels. We're now at level 3, and will sit there for several months (we were level 2 until this last session). This last session, his druid 2 died. It was a perfectly reasonable build, with a high wis and high con, had a riding dog companion, but it was a bad fit. He wanted to be casting shillelagh or aspect of wolf and getting in there and doing something, not staying back and slinging and casting lesser vigors when the fight was over.

Thus, I think he should play 1)not so complex a class as a druid, and 2) not one based on it's long term value. So my question is, what is a class (or combination of classes) plus other build choices such as feats that is relatively simple to play, which has a high survivability, and contributes. Just assume that this guy will die right before reaching sixth level so don't worry about PrC prereqs, getting improved bull rush so that they can eventually pick up shock trooper, etc.

[yellowrocket]

Barbarian or warblade would be my first suggestions. Crusader after that. Maybe if he's willing to self buff cleric with martial focused spells and domains.

[Fouredged Sword]

Warblade. It's complex enough to be interesting but not as complex as a casting class. He can run in and kill things to his heart content.

[ericgrau]

Seconding a heavy beatstick. A shield will work well, especially at low levels, and he can always change his style later.

Since you said don't worry about pre-reqs, an archer will be even more survivable. And with rapid shot it will deal decent damage too, more than THF at levels 1-5 I think. Note that without shocktrooper the attack penalty of power attack cancels out most of the gains, plus one attack that often misses is much more subject to overkill/wasted-round than 2 attacks that hit more often. So overall probably a bit more damage once we take away misses and damage beyond that which takes a foe to 0 hp. Note that by RAW you can make target decisions in the middle of a full attack.

Build is [Water] Orc Fighter 3 going into fighter 4 for weapon spec. Point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus. Since this is a low level only build Str > Dex > Con, rather than dex highest. Masterwork composite longbow. Level 5 take whatever, not fighter of course, and level 6 you completely rebuild I presume.

[Darrin]

My first thought is put him in a Crusader. This is the best "Tank" class in the game, in the sense that it can soak up damage like a sponge. Warforged with Adamantine Body and/or Stone Power can be a big chunk of NOPE! However, it sounds like this player's style... how do I put this delicately... um, I suspect no matter what build you give this guy, he will continue to make, shall we say... not so optimal decisions in combat just because that's how he likes to play.

So your other option might be a build that "forces" him to make better decisions. An archer or ranged character, for example, would encourage him to stay out of melee range and attack from a distance. A Cleric with Zen Archery and the Animal Devotion can stay out of trouble by flying over the battlefield, raining down death (or at least mild annoyance) from above. A Warlock might also work well here, and is a great class for newer players who might get confused by a whole bunch of options.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe druid is a good fit, just...not that druid. It's time for ACF madness! Here we take the druid and make it a Druidic Avenger and Deadly Hunter. This gives us a level 3 druid that has: 1/day rage, fast movement from both barbarian and monk, monk's AC bonus including Wisdom to AC, favored enemy, track, and swift tracker. This druid gives up weapon and armor proficiency, as well as wild shape and animal companion, so make sure his race has natural weapons (or he can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for something shiny).

So at level 3 this druid zooms along the battlefield at 50 base speed, threshing people with his rage-boosted attacks and possibly also favored enemy bonuses, and he also has the optional complexity of using his spells if he wants.

[Red Fel]

While I agree with what others have said - a solid, well-built beatstick/beefstick like the Crusader will give good survivability - something you mentioned jumped out at me.


We started a new campaign, and this time we are going to take our time through the low levels. We're now at level 3, and will sit there for several months (we were level 2 until this last session). This last session, his druid 2 died. It was a perfectly reasonable build, with a high wis and high con, had a riding dog companion, but it was a bad fit. He wanted to be casting shillelagh or aspect of wolf and getting in there and doing something, not staying back and slinging and casting lesser vigors when the fight was over.

That struck me as a rather odd thing to say. Is this what the character was built for? What the encounter was built for? Was the campaign - or the session, or the encounter - designed around his Druid acting as healbot? I ask because (1) healbot is one of the worst, most unsatisfying, and most inefficient roles in the game; (2) nobody should be pigeonholed into any role, let alone healbot; (3) this player clearly isn't interested in playing healbots; and (4) a "perfectly reasonable [Druid] with a high wis and high con" should expect - once he hits his stride - to be able to melee quite successfully.

Which leads to another point - at level 2, maybe the problem isn't the player at all. Very low levels are extremely lethal. One failed save, one critical hit, could instantly kill a character. You don't have the buffs or gear to withstand abuse, you don't have the HP cushion to shrug off a hit, and you don't have the modifiers to boost your saves. And for most classes, that's not likely to change. A Wizard may be made of tissue paper at level 1, but a Fighter is only slightly sturdier cardboard. And even a Crusader isn't likely to afford a set of full plate to cover his squishy flesh-bits at level 2.

[ComaVision]

It seems that 'X' likes using magic and melee. I wouldn't suggest a complex gish for him but a Duskblade might interest him.

[Fouredged Sword]

You could play Ironsides the Warforged

Warforged Fighter sub levels 1-3

Feats
1 - toughness
Flaw - Roll with it
Flaw - Adamantine Body
Warforged feat (fighter 2 sub level) - Improved DR
3 - Roll with it

Having +8 to ac and DR 7/- at 3rd level is a big deal. The fact that you also max out con for a +5 mod means you have enough HP to tank just about anything coming at you.

[ericgrau]

Maybe druid is a good fit, just...not that druid. It's time for ACF madness! Here we take the druid and make it a Druidic Avenger and Deadly Hunter. This gives us a level 3 druid that has: 1/day rage, fast movement from both barbarian and monk, monk's AC bonus including Wisdom to AC, favored enemy, track, and swift tracker. This druid gives up weapon and armor proficiency, as well as wild shape and animal companion, so make sure his race has natural weapons (or he can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for something shiny).

So at level 3 this druid zooms along the battlefield at 50 base speed, threshing people with his rage-boosted attacks and possibly also favored enemy bonuses, and he also has the optional complexity of using his spells if he wants.
The wis to AC and monk speed seems like a bit of a trap. It forces him to go armorless which makes him lose AC, and if he pumps his wis then it is at the expense of str and con. Natural weapons and racial proficiencies are also low damage unless he uses multiple attacks... in which case he's going to stand there and full attack rather than moving around. Then he gets hurt bad by the counter attack after his first single attack and before his full attack. Somewhat ok but not very survivable.

It might work well with spring attack and a dip for proficiency in a good weapon but that requires level 5, so he gets to be effective for precisely 1 level before redoing his build.

Druidic Avenger by itself seems better. Sort of like a barbarian who can cast.

Or take both ACFs but don't melee or rage. Dump str. Stay in the back, sling spells, move away faster than anything can pursue.

[Willie the Duck]

That struck me as a rather odd thing to say. Is this what the character was built for? What the encounter was built for? Was the campaign - or the session, or the encounter - designed around his Druid acting as healbot? I ask because (1) healbot is one of the worst, most unsatisfying, and most inefficient roles in the game; (2) nobody should be pigeonholed into any role, let alone healbot; (3) this player clearly isn't interested in playing healbots; and (4) a "perfectly reasonable [Druid] with a high wis and high con" should expect - once he hits his stride - to be able to melee quite successfully.

Good questions all. I probably could have said he should be casting entangle when we're around plants, and otherwise channel SNA1s. The point is that at low levels a long-term druid (high Wis+Con, low Dex+Str) should hold back, use their sling, rely on their animal companion, cast the occasional buffing spell, and wait to wade into combat until they get wildshape. Lesser vigor is just one of those utility spells (and how do you heal up, if not having the clerics and druids heal you? Natural healing?). As to his role, his role is to have fun, which is not what seems to be happening, which is why I'm wondering if I should suggest something else.

[Flickerdart]

Druidic Avenger by itself seems better. Sort of like a barbarian who can cast.
If going with only one, I would take Shapeshift Druid instead. Shapeshift is better than Rage, and at-will.

[Willie the Duck]

However, it sounds like this player's style... how do I put this delicately... um, I suspect no matter what build you give this guy, he will continue to make, shall we say... not so optimal decisions in combat just because that's how he likes to play.

So your other option might be a build that "forces" him to make better decisions.

I don't want to oversell his lack of competence. He is a perfectly fine RPG player. He's just used to D&D being 1E/2E. The nuances of running a 3.5 gish vs. a 2e elven fighter-mage or a 3.5 combat mauler druid vs. a 2e "I can turn into a sparrow" druid are a steep learning curve.

[ericgrau]

It sounds more like a matter of making the build easy to use. Like if you give a build that can do more than one thing they better all be good in most situations even if he tends to go with one rather than the other. One can be better than the other under certain circumstances, but neither should suck outside its niche, so he gets a chance to learn.

[John Longarrow]

Whisper Gnome Swashbucker (1) Ranger (1/2).
Guys is small (+1 to hit, +1AC), high dex (+1 to hit, +1 AC), and can keep up with the party. A five minute discussion on flanking also makes for a really nasty blender that loves waiting for the party tank to start hitting, moves to flank, and lets loose with a surprising amount of damage. At 2nd level your AC should be 18 (Chain shirt, small, 16 dex) with an attack of +6 (2 BAB, 16 dex, small) for 1d4+str on a short sword. At 3rd attack is either +7 or +5/+5. HPs would be 20 at 2nd (16 con) or 28 at 3rd. With two feats available you can further refine him based on the players style and what is allowed at your table.

In combat, his goal should be to set up flanks with another melee character. Bonuses around to hit. He's going to do some consistent damage but not be a damage monster. His goal is to help the big and hitty take things out. He also serves as an emergency shield to cover said big and hitty if they need to fall back.

This guy should also have a great hide/move silent, good tumble, and enough out of combat options to be fun.

NOTE for future progress. I'd probably have his next 3 levels be in Rogue (favored class). Starting at 4th that adds an extra D6 to flanking attacks. He's NOT going to be the monster damage dealer compared to the big, mean barbarian. He's also going to be much harder to hit while having almost as many hit points. This lets a player learn more about how combat works and how important helping each other is in combat without putting a giant bullseye on their chest.

[ben-zayb]

For an alternative to the tanky character suggestions, I'd go for a Whispergnome as suggested above, and tack it on a Rogue X / Warlock 1 chassis, picking up the Blend into Shadows feat via Warlock's Darkness SLA. Stat priority will be Dex > Con > everything else. He now gets a Sneak Attack Eldritch Blast hitting for flat-footed ranged-touch attack, which will usually be just AC 10. After each time he makes the easy attacks, he hides away from the enemies via Blend into Shadows.

[John Longarrow]

For an alternative to the tanky character suggestions, I'd go for a Whispergnome as suggested above, and tack it on a Rogue X / Warlock 1 chassis, picking up the Blend into Shadows feat via Warlock's Darkness SLA. Stat priority will be Dex > Con > everything else. He now gets a Sneak Attack Eldritch Blast hitting for flat-footed ranged-touch attack, which will usually be just AC 10. After each time he makes the easy attacks, he hides away from the enemies via Blend into Shadows.

Very good build (had a whisper gnome rogue do about the same with a sling many moons ago), but not sure if it fits the players style. OP makes it sound like this is a player who's preference is to wade into combat.

Course if he had summon swarm the pure joy of sicking a swarm or bats/rats on enemies may be enough to break him of it... :belkar:

[Vizzerdrix]

My favorite feat selection for low level survivability. A Human fighter-1 with 2 flaws can start with all of it.

Improved Toughness
Troll Blooded
Aberrant Dragonmark- Shield
Mark Of Madness
Mark of Xoriat

The outcome is +1 hp/lv, Regeneration-1, fatigued in sunlight, Shield (as the spell) 1/day, Lesser Confusion (as the spell) 3/day, and DR 5/byeshk. Most of tose feats are in Eberron's book: Dragonmarked.

EDIT- Also you could delay Mark of Xoriat until 3rd level and grab the Faerun feat that ups SLA use by 2/day. Then if he wants more dragonmarks later on he'll have more uses.

Also, if his wisdom isn't dumped, grab him a few jars of shapesand. I've yet to find a problem it can't solve.

[denthor]

Fighter no difficult builds this is a new player. Stay within the core rulebook Let them learn give him medium armor with Dex and strength points.

[Itsjustsoup.com]

Med Armor Dex and Shield

Sounds like Cleric
or spend a feat on heavy armor, or take 1 lvl fighter come out tower shield and heavy armor

It's not really a "me vs. all the monsters" or a "tanking game."

My players who try to tank my monster combinations get ghoulified fast.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Adding my $.02 to the Warblade suggestion, but I also have a question: What rule was mentioned for a complete rebuild at 6th level? I've never heard of that, without using the retraining rules, which typically go level by level.

[John Longarrow]

Not a character rebuild, and expectation the character will die.

[Willie the Duck]

I also have a question: What rule was mentioned for a complete rebuild at 6th level? I've never heard of that, without using the retraining rules, which typically go level by level.

No retraining. I'm just suggesting that worrying about perfect 20-level builds shouldn't be important. I helped him build an 'optimal' druid, who would be good once the wild shape kicked in, and it ended up being less than great for him, so I am asking "what would be good to play now?"

We play a stripped down version. Mostly core + the complete series. No flaws. Probably not ToB (I know, but it's low level, so the spellcasters don't completely run away with the show). I'm also the only one who has any optimizing tendencies, and I'm turning that off. Our other PCs were (at level 2, I don't know which way the others have leveled up) a wizard1/cleric1 going for mystic theurge, a ranger1/rogue1, and my (non-lion totem) barbarian 2 who is building towards fist of the forest.

I'm not sure if I've captured "X"'s playing style in my description. Yes, he wanted to charge in, but that could be because he said "aspect of wolf, cool, a spell that lets you shapechange at 1st level." I'm sure he'd be fine with an archery-based build or sneaky rogue or even straight wizard.