Constructing the perfect gish?

[Quintessence]

Starting a new campaign at level 2 with all books and offical homebrew(UA) open for use, and I want to play a gish. My initial thoughts are fighter 1/sorcerer 19, however since I chose the sorcerer would it be better to go with paladin 2/sorcerer 18 to pick up the divine smites to really help my melee?

Stats are standard 27 point buy, here are my base ideas for layout on the 2 races I am torn between.

Half-elf stats:
16 str
10 dex
16 con
8 int
8 wis
16 cha

Human Variant stats:
16 str
10 dex
14 con
8 int
8 wis
16 cha


Basically I have a lot of choices and feel slightly overwhelmed with trying to make a gish in 5E... The campaign will most likely end around level 15 if that helps.

[Tanarii]

GISH will want Extra Attack for sure.

Why is your Cha so high? GISH can generally dump their casting stat, since they won't be casting any offensive spells (by definition).

[eastmabl]

Have you taken a look at bladesinger? 1 level of fighter + 19 of bladesinger might get you some gishy goodness.

[Quintessence]

GISH will want Extra Attack for sure.

Why is your Cha so high? GISH can generally dump their casting stat, since they won't be casting any offensive spells (by definition).

Well my basic thought was I would use spells for ranged fighting and then fight in melee most likely with a great sword. So extra attack is worthwhile? Well that narrows down my choices for sorcerer origin quite a bit...



Have you taken a look at bladesinger? 1 level of fighter + 19 of bladesinger might get you some gishy goodness.

I actually did look at bladesinger, it seemed to have a lot of synergy issues. Is it better in practice than on paper?

[hymer]

Have you taken a look at bladesinger? 1 level of fighter + 19 of bladesinger might get you some gishy goodness.

Bards make good gish-in-cans, too, as do paladins. But I think the idea of spells at range but melee weapon if they get close fits better with the bladesinger. Though it won't be using a greatsword.

How about Favoured Soul sorcerer? I haven't really looked at it, but I think it's pretty gishy as sorcerous origins go.

[CaptAl]

Paladin 6 for cha to saves, extra attack, armor, and fighting style. Fill in the rest as warlock (fiend pact synergy is high), or Sorc for utility/blastiness. Or Lore Bard for utility/party buffing.

Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 10 for eldritch strike, war magic, and stupid amounts of AC and impossible to break concentration.

Bladesinger also multiclassed well with paladin though it kinda shoehorns you into a dex build and makes you MAD.

[RulesJD]

OoV Paladin (6)/Fiend Warlock(3)/Wild Magic Sorc(6)

At level 15 that's the best gish you can have. Paladin 6 for extra attack + aura (remember you need to be defensive too for gishing so +4/5 to all saves is godlike) + OoV spells aka Bless. Warlock 3 for Invocations + Hex + EB autoscalling to cover your ranged damage abilities + infinite 8 temp HP + 7/8 temp HP per kill + Darkness shenanigans. Wild Magic Sorc for Shield spell + Tides of Chaos to make particularly important saves + Wild Magic surges that are almost universally good in melee range + Bend Luck for suuuuper important saves/attacks + Metamagic shenanigans (bonus action Bless/Haste/Hold Person/Twinned Haste).

Oh and Warlock 3 to fuel your metamagics/Bless every combat with short rests + Pact of the Tome to get Guidance for use on various skill checks and initiative rolls. Sorc 6 is also 6 levels of FULL CASTER spell slow progression to combo with your 1/2 caster Paladin levels.

You could trade a few levels of Sorc for more Paladin, but you wont really be picking up much. The breaking points for Paladin are 6 and 11, and only getting 3 of Warlock and 1 of Sorc is solid but kind of a waste considering what else you can get going higher in Warlock/Sorc.

You could also trade 1 level of Sorc for another level of Warlock to get an additional ASI if you have a particular feat that you want. Current build (which assumes Variant Human obviously) gives 3 possibly Feats/2 ASIs. Trading one level (lose Bend Luck + spell slot progression) gives another ASI and +1 more temp HP/kill.

First feat should be Resiliency (Con) or Great Weapon Mastery. Whichever one you don't pick, take the other at Paladin 4. This means you should have 16 Str, 16 Con, and 16 Cha by level 4. At level 6 Paladin, I would recommend taking the ASI for +2 CHA to boost your saves/temp HP per kill/Spell save DC, etc.

This build is roughly what I have for one of my level 14 toons. It is monstrous. It has the highest damage potential between GWM + Smites + Advantage + Fireball. It has stupidly good survivability between Plate + Temp HP + Shield spell + stupidly high saves. And it has ridiculously fun utility between Guidance, Minor Illusion, about a bajillion other cantrips (Warlock (2) + Tome (3) + Sorc (5) = 10 cantrips, 3 from any class), Find Steed (best summoning spell in the game) + really high social interaction checks.

Throw on some magic great sword and armor and you're done. That right there is the best Gish build in the game for a level 15.

[Kane0]

Eldritch Knight Fighter
Bladesinger Wizard
Blade Pact Warlock
Favored Soul Sorcerer
Valor Bard
Any Paladin

The first two mesh with int casting, the rest mesh with cha casting. All are solid from the get go, it depends on what ratio of weapons to magic and what flavor you want though.

[Tanarii]

Well my basic thought was I would use spells for ranged fighting and then fight in melee most likely with a great sword. So extra attack is worthwhile? Well that narrows down my choices for sorcerer origin quite a bit...
That's not a GISH. GISH are primary physical (typically melee) that self-buff with magic to enhance their physical attacks.

For a GISH, Extra Attack is critical. They'll be doing all their attacks and damage via physical attacks. And probably some other source of extra damage on top of that if you're stuck with two attacks. Such as as Hunter's Mark (or Ensnaring Strike), Cleric's extra damage on hit from level 8/14 feature, or Paladin's Divine Strike (or various Strike spells).

For someone that can attack with magic or weapons, it's a whole different ball-game. It depends what you want to do. If you just want to have an effective OA, but do most of your damage via magic, then you don't need Extra Attack. If you want both options to be viable, physical and magical, then you'll still need at least Extra Attack or some other major physical attack source of extra damage. Or at the minimum Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade.

[Quintessence]

That's not a GISH. GISH are primary physical (typically melee) that self-buff with magic to enhance their physical attacks.

For a GISH, Extra Attack is critical. They'll be doing all their attacks and damage via physical attacks. And probably some other source of extra damage on top of that if you're stuck with two attacks. Such as as Hunter's Mark (or Ensnaring Strike), Cleric's extra damage on hit from level 8/14 feature, or Paladin's Divine Strike (or various Strike spells).

For someone that can attack with magic or weapons, it's a whole different ball-game. It depends what you want to do. If you just want to have an effective OA, but do most of your damage via magic, then you don't need Extra Attack. If you want both options to be viable, physical and magical, then you'll still need at least Extra Attack or some other major physical attack source of extra damage. Or at the minimum Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade.

Oh... I was under the impression that gish simply use both magic and physical attacks to win...

[Tanarii]

I didn't mean to get all technical definition on you in a negative way, just clarify what it is you're looking to do. A hybrid Melee/Caster is pretty easy to make. Kane0 listed most of the options.

But Fighter (stopping after somewhere from 1-3 levels) followed by Wizard (Bladesinger) is a great combination.

Some fun multiclass options that take significant investment in the initial class, then scale out from there as a caster class:
Fighter (EK) 10 / Wizard (any) 10 (gets War Magic!)
Bard (Valor) 6 / Sorcerer 14
Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14

[Kane0]

There is also Fighter 7+ / Warlock 2+ / Rogue 3+ if you rolled higher Cha and Dex than Int and Str.
Use War magic to Eldritch Blast then follow up with a longbow shot to deliver a sneak attack, all your other spells and abilities are gravy. EK is necessary, AT is recommended.
Fun build, takes a while to get all your abilities but usable from the start as a straight EK switch hitter that later picks up warlock casting (hex is a great spell).

Paladin / Warlock / Sorcerer is a great build too, gotta be careful of resource expenditure though. There's ways around it like using warlock spell slots to get sorcery points and thus replenish spell slots if your savvy. Also beware the RP aspect, some DMs can smell the cheese.

[Syll]

I don't think you necessarily need extra attack. With favored soul as an option I would absolutely take that, and you would get it from there... However if you wanted a different archetype, even without it you have green flame blade and booming blade to consider which won't stack with extra attack but give you a different melee option while better preserving your casting progression (as a pld 2 / sorc 18)

[grimgold]

I think that version of Gish might be a tad restrictive, in 3.5 where the gish really proliferated, a gish was someone who at 20th level had a full 9th level stack of spells and at least a +16 to hit. Gishes came in many flavors, such as ranged, mighty-morphing, armored, and triple threat for example. Gish didn't really exists in 4th ed due to a number of issues, mostly though because the concept of a double threat didn't play nicely with 4ths whole combat as sport mentality.

Since we've returned to combat as war in 5th, the gish is back but they fall short of their 3.5 glory days. In the current edition it's impossible to get max attacks per round and a ninth level stack of spells, so we have to broaden our definition of what is and isn't a gish.

1.) Must cast arcane spells (paladins, rangers and war clerics need not apply)
2.) Must finish with more than a single attack per attack action (no straight casters outside of bladesingers/favored souls).
3.) Must have some form of synergy between casting and fighting.

So this gives us a spectrum with eldritch knight on one side and blade singer on the other, with valor bards and blade locks in the middle. As for a perfect gish, for me that's the one with that draws on both sides the most, which I'd probably say is the valor bard. They get quick access to spells, many of which are buffs, get martial weapons and armor without a splash, and a second attack fairly early. They are probably not the most powerful gish (that honor goes to a specific build of bladelocks), but in this edition I feel like Valor bards are as close as it gets.

[Tanarii]

I think that version of Gish might be a tad restrictive, in 3.5 where the gish really proliferated, a gish was someone who at 20th level had a full 9th level stack of spells and at least a +16 to hit.Don't know where you got that from. Gish is a term derived from the Githyanki in 1e. It's not about some arbitrary 3.5 mechanics.

[Spacehamster]

Oathbreaker 8 and Bladelock 12, great saves, lvl 5 spell slots that recharge on short rest, good ranged option with eldritch blast and a beast in melee with STR + double CHA to all melee attacks. :)

[MaxWilson]

You could trade a few levels of Sorc for more Paladin, but you wont really be picking up much. The breaking points for Paladin are 6 and 11, and only getting 3 of Warlock and 1 of Sorc is solid but kind of a waste considering what else you can get going higher in Warlock/Sorc.

Paladin 9/Sorcerer 3 gives you Extended Aura of Healing, which is usually even more efficient than Shield. 140 HP healing for 1 sorcery point and a third level spell.

I agree that paladin/sorc/warlock is fantastic. Warbearians, fightlocks, necrotanks, and rogue/bladesingers are all fun too.

[Gignere]

VHuman Arcana cleric - with magic initiate + Shillelagh.

Pros: SAD, good AC, fantastic synergy with the SCAG cantrips.

Cons: no haste or extra attack

Strategy would be spirit weapon + spiritual guardians + BB or GFB + shillelagh every round to layer the damage. At high levels you can get + wis to damage 2x with the BB and GFB cantrips. This will give you fantastic damage and if the enemy is hitting you too much, just take dodge action and use spirit weapon and spiritual guardian to wear him down.

[RulesJD]

Paladin 9/Sorcerer 3 gives you Extended Aura of Healing, which is usually even more efficient than Shield. 140 HP healing for 1 sorcery point and a third level spell.

I agree that paladin/sorc/warlock is fantastic. Warbearians, fightlocks, necrotanks, and rogue/bladesingers are all fun too.

Agreed, but you wont have Aura of Healing up during combat due to Bless/Haste generally being a far better use of your concentration slot. I'll agree that it would provide a silly amount of healing, but that isn't a problem for my build. It has 2 short rest recharable healing slots at level 2 (2d8+10 with Cure Wound) and a metric ton of Temp HP that your build wouldn't. Armor of Agathys at a level 5 slot = 25 temp HP that does 25hp of cold damage to each hit to start. If you don't want to waste that slot, 8 temp HP at-will from Fiendish Vigor. Once that is burned off in the first hit, +8 temp HP per kill from Dark One's Blessing. Assuming 5-6 encounters per day, Fiendish Vigor alone provides for 40-48 health. Dark One's Blessing probably 80-96 that if you're killing at least 2 things per combat (which with Bless/Haste + GWM + quickened you better be).

Again, I haven't seen a stronger Gish build that is pretty much an entire party unto itself. You even get Counterspell to mess with casters. I just wish Sorcs or Warlocks got Absorb Elements from EE and it would be completely ridiculous.

[Syll]

Don't know where you got that from. Gish is a term derived from the Githyanki in 1e. It's not about some arbitrary 3.5 mechanics.

Language evolves. A arcane caster with 9th level spells and 16 bab was indeed the accepted 3.5 definition of a Gish build

[CaptAl]

If you want to be a spellslinger who doesn't suck at melee, that's pretty much the definition of a Bladesinger. Wizard offensive capacity with 20 rounds of über defense with bladesong, and song of defense at 10th.

That being said, play what sounds interesting. 5th edition has done a great job of balancing the classes. It's hard to make something truly unviable.

[Zman]

Go Dex instead of Str if you don't want Heavy Armor. Paladin will give you more damage with Smites, Fighter gives Action Surge which is great, a third level in Fighter gives you extra spells, a bound weapon, and makes up the lost caster level but delays 9th level spells a bit. You'll want to pick up either Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade as your primary means of attack.

Go Twinned and Quicken for your Metamagic. You can Twin Booming Blade for cheap, and you can Quicken it as well. Heighten later is good to pair with Hold or Discintigrate if your casting stat is decent.

Shield is a must. Blurr is great. Mirror Image is great. Haste is great.

If you go Fighter/Sorcerer you'll have Con Save Proficiencies. If you go Paladin/Sorcerer you'll need to start as Sorcerer to get Con Saves but will lose Heavy armor.

Warcaster can be very useful, Advantage on Con saves is amazing, being able to use a shield is good, and being able to AoO with Booming blade is situationally gold.

[grimgold]

Don't know where you got that from. Gish is a term derived from the Githyanki in 1e. It's not about some arbitrary 3.5 mechanics.

That seems like a random segue into Etymology, but it brings up a point, the specific rules definition of a gish changes from edition to edition, but the general theme remains the same, a capable melee combatant that cast arcane spells to enhance/supplement their abilities. My thought was to create a rules based definition for the current edition by looking at what that definition was in prior editions and seeing how much we can salvage. There must be some in game criteria to define gish or it's a useless term. I though my three suggestions were fairly reasonable for this edition, given it's similarities to 3.5. However you seem to have a very specific definition in mind, so I'm curious to hear the mechanical requirements you think a gish should fulfill in 5th ed.

[Kane0]

Wasn't a Gish originally a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard?

Now it seems to mean pretty much any Warrior/Mage build or hybrid.

[Foxhound438]

Best gish: Bladelock 12+ for thirsting blade and Armor of Agathys' 25 THP + 25 auto return damage, barbarian x (bear totem) for damage resistance that doesn't interfere with AoA (as that is a duration without concentration). 6th level GOO ability is great, 6th AF a little less so for gishing, otherwise 8 levels of barb will give you a crap ton of HP that no other gish could.

Armor of Agathys will be your only gish spell, since rage auto-breaks concentration on about any other spell, but that being said, the 25 THP will go twice as far in almost all cases (resistance to damage, magical or not from bear totem rage), and consequentially you'll get about 2x as many damage procs from it.

Thirsting blade at warlock 12 will do way more than one more rage damage, so there's no point in going 9 barb for the +3 rage damage.

PAM to get a bonus action attack that counts your lifedrinker (with TWF you can't have 2 pact weaps for lifedrinker) and rage damage is pretty good. Of course take hex, since you can't always rage every combat, it'll give you more offensive damage but you lose out on Armor of Agathys triggers when doing that; by all means you can still cast it, but it will lose some efficacy since you won't have damage resistance to stretch out those THP's.

Other good stuff here would be misty step (good escape option), Agonizing blast (pad out your ranged damage), Ascendant step (chase fliers), devil sight +darkness (another non-raging option, can't hex at the same time), war caster (usual gish feat, but not actually nessecary for the Armor of Agathys), Elemental Adept (Cold) (for AoA)

Good races are things that give some combination of str, con, and Cha. This doesn't really nessecitate half-elf, since your casting stat won't always be super important. That being said, Half-orc and Goliath are both pretty good, goliath's stone endurance in particular working exceptionally well with Armor of Agathys.

Some non-bo traps to this: understand that you only ever can have THP from one source ata time, meanitg Dark One's Blessing triggers will mostly be thrown out (replacing the THP loses the auto-backlash), but that's not necessarily useless; just an advisory. Same goes for False Life. Additionally, if you have to cast some spell to get away or otherwise do utility stuff, you end your rage by doing so.

Finally, note that it's a bit MAD, since you can't get heavy armor to work with rage, unlike fighter starts. This means you need high con, or at the very least decent dex for when you aren't raging. Low AC actually works well with AoA, since it damages when you get hit, but outside of that you might want some dex to help you out there... A sample stat spread for a goliath in this build is as follows:

At L1 (barb start) 16/10/16/8/10/14 for a measily 13 Ac, but a respectable 15 HP, padded out by rage...

At L5 (4 in lock) you grab PAM (or I would, at least, you can grab a different feat or go for higher stats overall)

L9 (8 in lock) you start bumping Str, unless you've found some gaunts of ogre str, then bump Cha

L13 (12 lock) you cap off str and grab Lifedrinker for the extra 2 damage per hit (or continue bumping Cha, if you have magic gloves)

at this point continue in Barb for bear totem and other general good stuff. Continue in Barb sooner if you want more HP from the bigger hit die early. Also note that if you get L5 in barb before L12 in warlock you'll have an opportunity to retrain your extra attack invocation to some utility crap.

L16 (4 barb) start bumping Cha, or top off if you got gloves earlier. Note that if you have the gloves you'll only ever get 19 str at this point if you do top Cha, unless you find a str belt to improve you further. Either way, without you have +10 to damage without gloves or +11 with them. pretty good straight damage.

L20 (8 barb) further improve Cha or take a neat feat. Most campaigns won't go this far, but cool deal if you do get to play some L20.

Also note you won't need war caster as badly as straight bladelock due to con save prof.

Your AC here maxes out at 15 from half plate, meaning a lot of big baddies will be auto hitting you, but your damage resistance will pad that out.

Edit: forgot to mention that it might be good to drop dex to 8 for a 15 Cha right off, eventually take resiliant Cha to even it off. Mostly this is useful if you find higher level spell scrolls.

[Foxhound438]

Paladin 6 for cha to saves, extra attack, armor, and fighting style. Fill in the rest as warlock (fiend pact synergy is high), or Sorc for utility/blastiness. Or Lore Bard for utility/party buffing.

Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 10 for eldritch strike, war magic, and stupid amounts of AC and impossible to break concentration.

Bladesinger also multiclassed well with paladin though it kinda shoehorns you into a dex build and makes you MAD.

if you want to do the pal-lock i would recommend going 11 Pal, since improved divine smite averages +5.25 with great weapon fighting style, and doesn't require any amount of Cha past the baseline 13 (14 or 16 is still worthwhile), and you still get warlock's 2 5th level slots on top of up to 3rd level pal spells, which means elemental weapon at +2/2d4 almost all of the time.

[DracoKnight]

2.) Must finish with more than a single attack per attack action (no straight casters outside of bladesingers/favored souls).

Valor Bard.

[Tanarii]

Wasn't a Gish originally a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard?Yes. But more specifically, one that fought with his weapons and used magic to enhance his physical attacks.


Now it seems to mean pretty much any Warrior/Mage build or hybrid.People often use the term that way. IMO incorrectly, as it has specific meaning to me of someone that enhances their physical attacks with magic, as opposed to directly attacking with it.

To me an EK that buffs himself up with haste and uses shield to block attacks is a GISH. One that uses Firebolt & Fireball for ranged attacks and AoE is something else there's no real name for ... just a generic Fighter/Magic-User.

But as was pointed out, language evolves.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed, but you wont have Aura of Healing up during combat due to Bless/Haste generally being a far better use of your concentration slot. I'll agree that it would provide a silly amount of healing, but that isn't a problem for my build. It has 2 short rest recharable healing slots at level 2 (2d8+10 with Cure Wound) and a metric ton of Temp HP that your build wouldn't. Armor of Agathys at a level 5 slot = 25 temp HP that does 25hp of cold damage to each hit to start. If you don't want to waste that slot, 8 temp HP at-will from Fiendish Vigor. Once that is burned off in the first hit, +8 temp HP per kill from Dark One's Blessing. Assuming 5-6 encounters per day, Fiendish Vigor alone provides for 40-48 health. Dark One's Blessing probably 80-96 that if you're killing at least 2 things per combat (which with Bless/Haste + GWM + quickened you better be).

From a temp HP perspective, there is very little difference between Paladin 9/Sorc 3/Warlock 3 and Paladin 6/Sorc 6/Warlock 3. They both have the same amount of Fiendish Vigor and Dark One's Blessing, and the same number of ASIs. The Sorc 6 can cast Armor of Agathys V instead of IV, that's the only difference in temp HP.

I'm not saying your build is bad, or even saying that you should definitely go Paladin 9 before Sorcerer 6--it's just that the claim was made that Paladin 9 doesn't really offer you anything, and I don't think that's true--Extended Aura of Vitality and Revive are huge for a party. I wanted to point that out so that folks can consider all their options before making a decision.

BTW, I'm very unenthusiastic about Haste. It really doesn't buy you anything, not even in terms of action economy--(almost) anything you can kill with Haste can be killed without Haste, and you can use the spell slot you saved to heal your entire party after combat with Extended Aura of Vitality. There are some niche ways to leverage Haste (e.g. use Quickened Haste to throw a net, and then beat on the now-restrained target with advantage using GWM or Sharpshooter) that make it better than just not casting anything at all, but is it really worth a 3rd level spell slot and the increased vulnerability? Usually I think you're better off without, unless you're fighting oddball glass cannons like Medusas, Umber Hulks, or Beholders, or are heavily outnumbered.

[choryukami]

Here are my favorite gishes (which are actually pretty much all of them, having magic makes any character better, IMO), in no particular order:

1. Valor Bard: Just remember to specialize in great weapons or archery. Pick up smite spells or swift quiver and haste for your magical secrets. You are also a skill master, can heal, and can mind-control if you have a decent charisma. You might even dip 2 levels in paladin for fighting style and so you can dump your ample number of spell slots into Divine Smite.

2. Paladin: If you want less casting, more smashing, paladins charge their weapons with power and are great tanks, off-healers and can nova. Veng Paladin is probably more DPR style.

3. Paladin/Sorcerer: Only 6 levels in paladin for smites, fighting style, extra attack and aura. Once again, dump your ample spell slots into smite. Also, quicken spell a spell, then do a full attack (possibly with smites) is nice. My Pld/Sorc is a chaos sorcerer gold dragonborn because a lot of the weird surges can be good, and one of them is a fireball centered on you, but fire resist is nice in that case.

4. Blade Pact Warlock: BP Warlock, especially fiend, is very decent. Just pick a focus and act accordingly. If you pick sword+board, great weapons or dual wielding, a dip in fighter or paladin could help for the fighting style (and armor if you have high str). And a paladin dip is always good for the ability to smite. Just make sure you pick your extra attack and +cha to damage abilities.

5. Fighter (Eldritch Knight): This is way more heavy on the physical side of gish. Your spells will mostly be buff spells if you can manage it. But what is better than having a heavy armored blender of death? Having a flying, hasted, misty stepping blender of death. Unfortunately, most of your spell picks need to be evocation or abjuration. You may want to dip 2 levels into wizard, which fixes this, gives you rituals (a little utility) and a school of magic. If you are a great weapons guy, I suggest picking Divination and if you are a one handed weapons guy I suggest picking Bladesinger.

6. Bladesinger Wizard: I've actually not played one yet. But it seems like if EK is fighter with caster tacked on, BSW is wizard with a little fighter tacked on. You can have massive AC, but you would still not be all that durable. Just be sure to load up shield, haste, mirror image, misty step and such into lower spell slots. So you are probably not the best at actually bringing the pain in melee, but you can do it and survive. You are still 100% a wizard and if you feel like not being in melee today, you could always just stand back and fireball. The archetype just gives you versatility.

7. The other guys: Technically rangers, arcane tricksters, all clerics, all druids (even moon when not in wild shape) and 4 out of 5 monk archetypes are at least somewhat gish-oriented. I have played a moon druid, and they are out-of-the-box very powerful, no optimization needed. Both land and moon can come out with Shillelagh, good AC and mix it up.. until level 5 anyway. I do count a magic bear as gish-esque, as you can also cast buff spells (barkskin, stoneskin) or zone spells (flaming sphere, beam spells, call lightning) THEN wild shape. Clerics are very durable with a not-as-robust spell list (arcane, storm and light domain might give you what you want though). Arcane Tricksters... I feel like they could be a lot better than they are. I want them to have Spell Thief at a way lower level, but all rogues are fun and stabby. Monks are just strange and cool. They're effective when played well (I have seen it), but they don't mix well with other classes, and if you can't tell I'm kind of addicted to multiclassing. And rangers. *SIGH* rangers. They can be good, but I feel like they got the short end of the stick, like they normally do. I feel like WoTC doesn't know what to do with them.

[choryukami]

I think that version of Gish might be a tad restrictive, in 3.5 where the gish really proliferated, a gish was someone who at 20th level had a full 9th level stack of spells and at least a +16 to hit. Gishes came in many flavors, such as ranged, mighty-morphing, armored, and triple threat for example. Gish didn't really exists in 4th ed due to a number of issues, mostly though because the concept of a double threat didn't play nicely with 4ths whole combat as sport mentality.

Since we've returned to combat as war in 5th, the gish is back but they fall short of their 3.5 glory days. In the current edition it's impossible to get max attacks per round and a ninth level stack of spells, so we have to broaden our definition of what is and isn't a gish.

1.) Must cast arcane spells (paladins, rangers and war clerics need not apply)
2.) Must finish with more than a single attack per attack action (no straight casters outside of bladesingers/favored souls).
3.) Must have some form of synergy between casting and fighting.

So this gives us a spectrum with eldritch knight on one side and blade singer on the other, with valor bards and blade locks in the middle. As for a perfect gish, for me that's the one with that draws on both sides the most, which I'd probably say is the valor bard. They get quick access to spells, many of which are buffs, get martial weapons and armor without a splash, and a second attack fairly early. They are probably not the most powerful gish (that honor goes to a specific build of bladelocks), but in this edition I feel like Valor bards are as close as it gets.

Arcane vs Divine isn't really a thing anymore. That's why I count the paladin and cleric. Especially paladin, who seems like the 'average gish' poster boy in this edition. Who else can dump their spell slots directly into melee damage? He is the divine Duskblade or the Spellsword of this edition.

I agree with: two attacks, mixes casting with fighting or buffs himself with casting for fighting.

[RulesJD]

From a temp HP perspective, there is very little difference between Paladin 9/Sorc 3/Warlock 3 and Paladin 6/Sorc 6/Warlock 3. They both have the same amount of Fiendish Vigor and Dark One's Blessing, and the same number of ASIs. The Sorc 6 can cast Armor of Agathys V instead of IV, that's the only difference in temp HP.

I'm not saying your build is bad, or even saying that you should definitely go Paladin 9 before Sorcerer 6--it's just that the claim was made that Paladin 9 doesn't really offer you anything, and I don't think that's true--Extended Aura of Vitality and Revive are huge for a party. I wanted to point that out so that folks can consider all their options before making a decision.

BTW, I'm very unenthusiastic about Haste. It really doesn't buy you anything, not even in terms of action economy--(almost) anything you can kill with Haste can be killed without Haste, and you can use the spell slot you saved to heal your entire party after combat with Extended Aura of Vitality. There are some niche ways to leverage Haste (e.g. use Quickened Haste to throw a net, and then beat on the now-restrained target with advantage using GWM or Sharpshooter) that make it better than just not casting anything at all, but is it really worth a 3rd level spell slot and the increased vulnerability? Usually I think you're better off without, unless you're fighting oddball glass cannons like Medusas, Umber Hulks, or Beholders, or are heavily outnumbered.

Cast quickened Haste while on your mount. Horse now has an additional attack and base movement speed of 120ft. The +2 AC and advantage on dex saves is clutch for a class that traditionally tops out at 18 AC and a fairly poor dex save.

The difference between Paladin 6 or 9 in that build is huge. My build gives you Counterspell, Fireball, and Blink. Those three spells alone are worth their weight in gold for a gish build.

[grimgold]

I see a lot of paladin warlock builds, what about eldritch knight wizard builds? Say Fighter 11/wizard 9, that would give you three attacks per attack action, 5th level wizard spells, with 6th level slots for boosting spells. You also get war magic (neat) and Eldritch strike (devastating), then specialize in abjuration for arcane ward. You can dump dex and wear heavy armor, use a big two handed weapon, or go sword and board if you don't mind blowing a feat (which in all honesty is a really good feat for you anyway).

I think this compares pretty favorably to the paladin/warlock build, it's a better melee fighter, has more spells and better spells, and can get around the paladins awesome saves with disadvantage. It would certainly be a fun fight to watch, booming blade/true strike with a bonus melee attack, action surge into a full attack or swing for the fences with a debuff such as slow or hold person now that they have disadvantage on their save. Pop shield as soon as the counter attack happens, getting an absurd AC and some bonus hit points. It would be like watching two Jedi throw down, throwing spells and swinging swords merged into a special effects budget busting fight.

[MaxWilson]

Cast quickened Haste while on your mount. Horse now has an additional attack and base movement speed of 120ft. The +2 AC and advantage on dex saves is clutch for a class that traditionally tops out at 18 AC and a fairly poor dex save.

There are no paladins who top out at 18 AC--Plate Armor + Shield of Faith is AC 20 even if you didn't take Defense style and aren't using a shield. And Shield of Faith only costs a 1st level spell slot and a bonus action, unlike Haste.

AC 21 is standard for paladins that I play, and AC 28 w/ Shield is easily attainable by a paladorc (although AC 26 + disadvantage for attacks from Blur or via grappling is actually better and almost as cheap). Paladorcs make fantastic tanks.


Counterspell, Fireball, and Blink

Counterspell is great (especially with Tides of Chaos), Fireball is pretty good (though possibly redundant), Blink is pretty meh for a tank since it means you aren't there to do the tanking. It's good for solo adventuring though, about as good as the Mobile feat.

Sorc 6 has a lot to offer; so does Paladin 9. Paladin 11 is pretty mediocre though. As a player, I'm currently aiming for Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorc 9/Cthulock 2 to be incredibly versatile in and out of combat, as a solo adventurer or as part of a team. (Currently at Paladin 7/Sorc 4 and it's sweeeet. Although I may feel differently if my Paladin de-ages any more and turns into a 9-year-old. :))

[RulesJD]

There are no paladins who top out at 18 AC--Plate Armor + Shield of Faith is AC 20 even if you didn't take Defense style and aren't using a shield. And Shield of Faith only costs a 1st level spell slot and a bonus action, unlike Haste.

AC 21 is standard for paladins that I play, and AC 28 w/ Shield is easily attainable by a paladorc (although AC 26 + disadvantage for attacks from Blur or via grappling is actually better and almost as cheap). Paladorcs make fantastic tanks.



Counterspell is great (especially with Tides of Chaos), Fireball is pretty good (though possibly redundant), Blink is pretty meh for a tank since it means you aren't there to do the tanking. It's good for solo adventuring though, about as good as the Mobile feat.

Sorc 6 has a lot to offer; so does Paladin 9. Paladin 11 is pretty mediocre though. As a player, I'm currently aiming for Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorc 9/Cthulock 2 to be incredibly versatile in and out of combat, as a solo adventurer or as part of a team. (Currently at Paladin 7/Sorc 4 and it's sweeeet. Although I may feel differently if my Paladin de-ages any more and turns into a 9-year-old. :))

Yeah, no.

Your Paladins are likely either breaking the rules or aren't being as good as they can be. High AC is pretty pointless because a DM will just switch to Dex save attacks.

Shield of Faith a TERRIBLE choice for your concentration slot. Bless always, always is a better idea. So no, you are stuck with AC 18/20. Remember, this is to build the "best" gish. Bless + GWM + GWF beats Shield of Faith in melee by about 100 miles. The only way you're getting AC 20/22 is when Haste is up. And Haste is a bonus action when you Quicken it, so yes, those extra Sorc levels are more valuable due to the greater number of Sorc points to Quicken with.

[JackPhoenix]

Shield of Faith a TERRIBLE choice for your concentration slot. Bless always, always is a better idea. So no, you are stuck with AC 18/20. Remember, this is to build the "best" gish. Bless + GWM + GWF beats Shield of Faith in melee by about 100 miles. The only way you're getting AC 20/22 is when Haste is up. And Haste is a bonus action when you Quicken it, so yes, those extra Sorc levels are more valuable due to the greater number of Sorc points to Quicken with.

If you care only about damage, sure...if you want to tank for your group or survive against BBEG's armies, you may want to stock up on some defenses

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, no.

Your Paladins are likely either breaking the rules or aren't being as good as they can be. High AC is pretty pointless because a DM will just switch to Dex save attacks.

If your DM metagames, then he is a bad DM. Or at least, I have no interest in playing with him. The world exists, and it's the job of the PCs to respond to it. It's not supposed to be a Heisenworld, whose inhabitants all turn into Magma Mephits because I just cast Shield of Faith.

Your opinion of Shield of Faith is colored by the fact that you have a metagaming DM--but apparently his metagaming doesn't extend to hitting you with Dispel Magic to cancel your Haste and make you waste two full turns being useless.

[RulesJD]

If your DM metagames, then he is a bad DM. Or at least, I have no interest in playing with him. The world exists, and it's the job of the PCs to respond to it. It's not supposed to be a Heisenworld, whose inhabitants all turn into Magma Mephits because I just cast Shield of Faith.

Your opinion of Shield of Faith is colored by the fact that you have a metagaming DM--but apparently his metagaming doesn't extend to hitting you with Dispel Magic to cancel your Haste and make you waste two full turns being useless.

It has nothing to do with Metagaming. Bless and Haste are just objectively better than Shield of Faith for a gish build.

[Corran]

It has nothing to do with Metagaming. Bless and Haste are just objectively better than Shield of Faith for a gish build.
It depends on the situation, and on the party composition.

[djreynolds]

Eldritch Knight Fighter
Bladesinger Wizard
Blade Pact Warlock
Favored Soul Sorcerer
Valor Bard
Any Paladin

The first two mesh with int casting, the rest mesh with cha casting. All are solid from the get go, it depends on what ratio of weapons to magic and what flavor you want though.

Its been settled.