Help with Paladin

[TelexFree]

Hey guys,

I'm new on this forum, with D&D 5e and with Paladins. It is our first campaign on this edition and I'd like some help with my char. My numbers:

STR 17
DEX 12
CONS 16
INT 12
WIS 14
CHAR 16


Race:

Hill Dwarf (The extra HP really makes much difference later in tha game, with my stats?)
Mountain dwarf (change STR to 16, ok is good)
Human?

Feat:

Two-Hander with Great Weapon Master


Oath:

I liked the vengeance oath but I'm not used with non LG paladins. I can't imagine a neutral paladin in my head yet. My party is just me and a cleric with the domain of life. I know this oath is made to kill bosses, I'm Ok with that. Last campaign (3.5) we were gods and I'm trying to make a good interpretation of a paladin who makes what is necessary (with limits) nad still have that good hero appearance.

Is that a good build?

Thanks!

[Foxhound438]

Paladins at level 11 get an extra d8 to all of their attacks, so you might consider a feat that gives you the bonus action attack consistently. GWM is okay for piles of mooks (you can easily one shot a goblin with +10 damage) for getting the bonus action attack, but if it comes down to one fat enemy, you're stuck with your standard attack for the most part. Note also that the -5/+10 attack option won't be very good where you're fighting enemies in decent armor, since you could end up dropping to about a 15% hit chance. It's not bad otherwise, but it's not great in those cases.

Consider also for GWM paladin the classic oath of devotion, the channel divinity sacred weapon will make up (to some degree) for the -5 to hit you take to use it consistently. Vengeance's vow of enmity is kind of good for the same reason, but note that that effect is tied to one enemy, making it a little worse.

Oath of ancients is more of a tanking focused set of abilities, they're all good but if it's not what you're looking for so be it.

Once you reach level 4 consider war caster or resilient (con) to help you keep concentration on your spells in a fray.

That's my shpeal for paladins. Your stats are pretty good, so that should actually take some pressure off of building efficiently, allowing for some experimentation.

[RakiReborn]

Hi there, ill try to give some tips and other things i found usefull that i saw or heard a couple of times.

Firstly, great stats! i suppose you rolled them? they make some extra room for a feat, so that should be nice.

The race:
Both dwarves are quite good, but the mountain dwarf gives the better stat increases. +2 on both STR and CON are great! Only race to get +2 to two of your primary stats.
Normal human would be a bad choice here, as almost all your stats are even now. Variant human on the other side, is a wonderful choice. Put one in the three primary stats - STR, CON, CHA, and add +1 to CON and CHA at lvl4, and you would have three stats at 18 already, AND you can take a feat, which i will discuss now:

The Feats:
Great Weapon Master is a great feat, and in my opinion stays a great feat throughout the game. There are multiple posts with the maths when to use it, some of them are quite simple. This feat has wonderful synergy with the Bless spell, and gets even better if you have a reliable source that gives you advantage. Besides that, you also have the other part of the feat; you can make one bonus action attack when you crit on your turn or if you reduce an enemy to 0hp with an attack.
Sentinel makes you a sticky tank. Better if you would play with a second tank, but still good to keep them away from your cleric buddy. If your cleric is melee based too, feel free to take this if he doesn't - it will give you a better damage output if you are within 5ft of eachother.
Polearm Master is another great option, if you are willing to forgo the two-hander ang GWM feat. This feat gives you a bonus action every turn you use your action to attack, and you get attacks of opportunity when creatures enter your (10ft) reach. This is quite good, and is a perfect combo with the Sentinal feat: A creature comes towards you, you get an AoO when he gets to 10ft away from you, if you hit, he cant move anymore to get into melee and attack you.
Resilient (con or dex). Both these feats are nice to have, since the saves are quite frequent. Especially CON, with the concentration saves for your bless or other concentration spells (probably bless). However, both those scores are already nice and even, so unless you would take another feat that gives +1 to the skill, i wouldnt recommend it. This is just so you know the options ;)
Heavy Armor Master is a great feat for the first 5 or so levels, but quickly loses its steam later on. Magical attacks are more frequent at higher levels, and the reduction is less and less significant. If you plan to play for only a little while, take this. If you dont, dont ;)
Lucky. Lucky is simply great. Reroll 3 d20's on a long rest. Just plain wonderful. Dreadfull miss when you need to hit? No more! Failed on an important charisma check? No more!
Inspiring leader is better in bigger parties. If you get some hirelings to travel with you on your quests, this may be a nice feat. charlevel + CHA modifier temporary hit points per short rest is quite a boon if you are with 6 total in the party.

The Oaths:
Do not fret over the allignments, as long as you do not plan to play an evil character with the oath of devotion (even though even that could work in some twisted ways). The allignments are less important than the parts of the oaths. If you want to play the goody two-shoes that is LG, nice to all that is good or neutral, go ahead. Your oath only tells you to do go for the kill for evildoers.
The other oaths can be quite nice too tho. Unfortunately i cant find the Class Guides that were on the wizard site before, but i found one about the paladin on this site here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373592-A-Guide-to-the-D-amp-D-5th-Edition-Paladin-through-the-eyes-of-a-3-5-Player) (click for link).

Hope I helped a little, and if you have any specific questions, feel free to ask them.

[Foxhound438]

(words)

pretty much this. The feat advice is sound, but i would add that you might consider taking war caster at L8. You can't start with it as a paladin, but it's there for you later.

[Ouranos]

Perhaps the great manual of Paladins?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375696-Good-is-Not-Nice-A-Paladin-s-Guide

[djreynolds]

Enjoy this experience, great rolls. Great weapons are sweet, and pole arm master with GWM is great. You get 5 feats though, and four of these may end up in stats to max out str and chr, so you are left with one feat. The one feat that goes with every build is sentinel, S&B, TWF, and any other weapon style.

Resilient is nice in con, and shield master could give evasion.

But also remember a paladin has so much to offer without feats you may have tough time tracking them and you are MAD. If you took resilient con, and split an ASI later to strength and con you could even them up to 18' s if you took mountain dwarf. Now you have 3 feats left, enough to max out str with 1 and chr with two. This is better than hill dwarf than, because you have con proficiency and chr saves. And I would go S&B for this build.

For great weapon, something has to give. You will be without a shield, you can spam shield of faith but at the cost of bless or take the defensive style at the cost of GWS. And I would take pole arm master, which makes GWS less potent, but as Foxhound said you will get extra radiant damage at 11 and polearm master gives you a much needed bonus action attack 1d4 + 1d8. You may have to leave charisma at 16.

[TelexFree]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the amazing tips! I'll start to play this Sunday and here is my build until now:
I decided to the classical Paladin, I never choose classical characters so it's time.

Race: Mountain Dwarf
BG: Noble
Fighting style is Great Weapon Fighting.

STR: 18
DEX: 11
CONS: 19
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHAR: 16

My CONS is 19 because I'm planning to have DURABLE feat at 3rd level. With that I'll get the maximum HP every level from D10.
Plans: GWM
Savage attacker
Increase STR
Not sure about TOUGH.

Weapons:

Maul (I don't like it, but it is ok for now)
WarHammer
GreatSword

Skills:

Persuasion and Athletics or Insight.

Oath:

I have no idea. I love the Vengeance, but my classical paladin's background make it impossible.
Devotion:

It is Ok. Sacred Weapon is good and Aura of Devotion too. For the experienced ones, That 10 radiant damage at 20th level with holy nimbus makes some difference? As i said, my first time at 5e. 10 of damage are good to higher levels?

Ancients:

Aura of Warding is AMAZING.
Elder Champignon looks amazing, I couldn't find a paladin spell that is no bonus action already to base this oath's choice.

So guys, according you experience, Am I focusing too much on health? High CONS and DURABLE. We are just 2 players, I need to resist and attack hard at the same time. My partner is Cleric, so will be hard to die.

What can I modify or make to improve my damage keeping my hp and resistence? (I know, searching for a perfect char)

I'm affraid to get feats or a Oath that works only in the lower levels, I want to make a build to the future play.

Thanks all!

[RakiReborn]

It seems to me that you focus mainly on the tanking bit. If the cleric wants to go melee(-ish), i suggest you take sentinel. That way you can punish enemies if they go for the cleric instead of you. Tough is in my opinion not worth it. Cha18 seems better to me, as you and your buddy get extra bonus to saves from your nice aura.
About the oath - play what you like, and dont look too much at the 17+ abilities. If you start at lower lvls, you usually dont play the high lvls so long.
Im sorry, thats all i got now. AFB and on my mobile instead of pc, so going deeper than this is difficult now.

[Arkhios]

I assume that was just an oversight from 3.X perspective, but let me correct one thing, you don't get feats at every third level, nor every uneven (if you come from pathfinder instead), you get feats at 4th,8th,12th,16th, and 19th lvl.

Anyway, not using a shield or defense style (or both) your AC will remain relatively low, so any extra hit point is welcome.
About Durable feat, I'm not exactly sure how did you get the impression you'd get maximum HP from every d10 used to heal with short rests (because you don't; you get 1d10+Con, but the minimum possible hit point recovery is 10 (con mod x 2). In the end, your spent hit dice range from giving hit points between 10 to 15)

Paladin has quite a few spells that require a concentration to keep up. If you take damage while concentrating (not an action required), you must succeed in Constitution Saving throw, or lose concentration - and since a paladin isn't proficient with Constitution saves, it relies on your constitution alone (plus charisma after 6th level).

I don't think hit points will be an issue for you, so Tough might not be necessary. Taking War Caster might be better choice.

[bid]

I don't think hit points will be an issue for you, so Tough might not be necessary. Taking War Caster might be better choice.
Resilient (Con) works much better with Con19.

But yeah, everything else as you say. And durable effective hp+1 pales compared to the hp+5 from Con20.

- pally 4 feat = GWM
- pally 8 feat = resilient (Con)
- pally 12 feat = Cha+2

If you are going defensive, save+1 from aura of protection will do much more to your party than a hit+1/damage+1. By level 8 you should know if you're having issues with concentration or not.

[Arkhios]

Resilient (Con) works much better with Con19.

But yeah, everything else as you say. And durable effective hp+1 pales compared to the hp+5 from Con20.

Are you sure you didn't mix Tough with Durable?
Tough gives you +2 hp/level, but no increase to Con
Durable gives +1 to con, plus improved hit point recovery (btw, what is this "effective hp+1" you're talking about?)

It's true that Resilient (Con) works well with Con 19 though, but Durable is actually very useful too, it provides more reliable HP recovery, and helps with conserving hit dice through the day.

It's either Durable or Resilient (Con), Not Durable or Tough. Whichever the OP takes, War Caster with its advantage to Concentration "saves" is going to kick ass big time. With Con 20 and d10 hit die, tough isn't necessary, while it's a nice boost still (+40 hp, total, at 20th level)

[bid]

Are you sure you didn't mix Tough with Durable?
I am sorry if I wasn't clear at all.:smallbiggrin:
With short rest HD:
- 1d10+5 = 10.5 average (minimum 6)
- 1d10+5 + durable = 11.5 average (minimum 10)
Just roll 2 HD and get 12 hp minimum if your luck went to the crapper. Much cheaper than wasting a feat.


Warcaster is useless once you have resilient (Con): at level 8 you have something like +12 from Con20 + proficiency + aura.


Tough is a nice late game feat, but Con+2 is strictly better and there are other issues to take care before that. As I said, the first 3 ASI should be somewhat close to:
- pally 4 feat = GWM
- pally 8 feat = resilient (Con)
- pally 12 feat = Cha+2

[Arkhios]

Warcaster is useless once you have resilient (Con)
While you're free to think what you wish, claiming a feat is useless just because you think so is like you were trying to sell your opinion as the one and only true opinion :)

And what Con +2, exactly? You can't increase your Con above 20 with ASI or feats, so, it's either Durable or Resilient, if you don't want to waste a part of or the whole ASI. Mind you, I'm talking about the OP's character, not in general, and I'd prefer it stays that way. As his character, not ours.

Advantage isn't useless, ever. It's a lot more unlikely to get a natural 1 with rolling 2 dice, and a low d20 roll is still going to hurt against a high DC. At higher levels it's quite possible that you'll have to roll concentration check against a DC of above 20, even from damage.

[bid]

Advantage isn't useless, ever. It's a lot more unlikely to get a natural 1 with rolling 2 dice, and a low d20 roll is still going to hurt against a high DC. At higher levels it's quite possible that you'll have to roll concentration check against a DC of above 20, even from damage.
Let me qualify that "useless". How critical is improving your concentration vs fixing any other isssue you may have?

Using that +12 above, anything below 30 fails on the sucky 1s only.
- 10% failure ~ 30 damage vs 40 damage with warcaster
- 50% failure ~ 40 damage vs 50 damage with warcaster

At level 8, this pally should have 90 hp or so, and 3 of those hits will bring him down. Warcaster won't have the time to help.

Death by a thousand pinpricks at 9 damage a pop means 10 concentration rolls, 60% chance of never rolling 1 and ending the fight with concentration still active.


If you more likely to end the fight with concentration active than to lose it, you have more pressing needs. Optimizing this issue has a "negative" value because of the lost opportunities. I think I have supported my opinion with facts. :smallwink:

[TelexFree]

text

Yes! Actually I knew that I was 4th. I wrote it wrong.

About the feat DURABLE, I was pretty sure that I would got the minimum from the dice, not dice + CONS. That seems not so good now.

Thanks! I'll figure out something until tomorrow.

[TelexFree]

Resilient (Con) works much better with Con19.

But yeah, everything else as you say. And durable effective hp+1 pales compared to the hp+5 from Con20.

- pally 4 feat = GWM
- pally 8 feat = resilient (Con)
- pally 12 feat = Cha+2

If you are going defensive, save+1 from aura of protection will do much more to your party than a hit+1/damage+1. By level 8 you should know if you're having issues with concentration or not.

I'm still trying to understand TOUGH. Can someone give an example? (not English speaker)

Thanks a lot!

[bid]

I'm still trying to understand TOUGH. Can someone give an example? (not English speaker)

Thanks a lot!
Lets say your pally has 58 hp at level 4. You grab tough, it now has 66 hp. That's all.

It's just +8 hp at level 4 and will grow to +40 hp at level 20.

[E’Tallitnics]

I'm still trying to understand TOUGH. Can someone give an example? (not English speaker)

Thanks a lot!

Tough = character level x 2 as Hit Points.

So if you take it at 4th level you gain 8 Hit Points, and get an extra 2 Hit Points each level after that.

[djreynolds]

Let me qualify that "useless". How critical is improving your concentration vs fixing any other isssue you may have?

Using that +12 above, anything below 30 fails on the sucky 1s only.
- 10% failure ~ 30 damage vs 40 damage with warcaster
- 50% failure ~ 40 damage vs 50 damage with warcaster

At level 8, this pally should have 90 hp or so, and 3 of those hits will bring him down. Warcaster won't have the time to help.

Death by a thousand pinpricks at 9 damage a pop means 10 concentration rolls, 60% chance of never rolling 1 and ending the fight with concentration still active.


If you more likely to end the fight with concentration active than to lose it, you have more pressing needs. Optimizing this issue has a "negative" value because of the lost opportunities. I think I have supported my opinion with facts. :smallwink:

This is a very good illustration. Excellent

I agree with taking resilient con, but at level 12 or so. And though I very much like war caster a lot, it is for the S&B type paladins who may multiclass and have a real good spell or cantrip to use for those AoO.

But this guy is going GWM style, and he should focus on bringing the pain. Max that strength and get GWM and sentinel straight away. Since he has 17 in strength.

4 ASI 19 strength
8 GWM, maybe sentinel but I prefer GWM, let someone else take sentinel
12 ASI 20 strength/ con 17
16 resilient con/ con 18
19 chr 18

His starting stat of 16 in chr is pretty good already, I'm not sure he has the space for sentinel

[bid]

This is a very good illustration. Excellent
Thank you. I wasn't sure which was right, but now we can discuss the facts and their limits.

BTW you used the original stats, before TelexFree picked mountain dwarf:
STR: 18
DEX: 11
CONS: 19
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHAR: 16


I also feel GWM has a bigger value than Str20 and works very well with vow of enmity. Str20 can wait.

[spartan_ah]

Why would you assume that 1 is an auto fail?
There's no saying nowhere in the books that 1 is failing your saving throw.
After playing a Pali you don't need war caster. Resilient and your aura will serve you well

[bid]

Why would you assume that 1 is an auto fail?
Right, the 1 or 20 only applies to the attack rolls. I went rolling with the "It's a lot more unlikely to get a natural 1 with rolling 2 dice" point about advantage which... was meaningless for warcaster.

So it's even simpler: you can only lose concentration if you get 30 damage. You have 70% chance of dying before losing concentration. Warcaster is completely useless in this case.

[spartan_ah]

Right, the 1 or 20 only applies to the attack rolls. I went rolling with the "It's a lot more unlikely to get a natural 1 with rolling 2 dice" point about advantage which... was meaningless for warcaster.

So it's even simpler: you can only lose concentration if you get 30 damage. You have 70% chance of dying before losing concentration. Warcaster is completely useless in this case.

to be accurate, 30 dmg in 1 attack, if it's multiple attacks you roll for each one

[Corran]

30 dmg forces a concentration check with DC 15.

[TelexFree]

Hi everyone!

First game was great! I have ATK +6 and +4 DMG on 1st level. It's really easy to kill. I realized that with PAL skills I'll have enough DMG so I'm thinking if wear a shield (one hand weapon with vengeance oath) or focus in extreme DMG (two hands weapon with vengeance oath), considering that my partner is a cleric with life domain and I have high CONS I don't need to worry too much in protection. Am I going to the right way?

I got the noble background.

Thanks all!

[Oramac]

We are just 2 players

Have you considered each running two characters? It may or may not be more complicated, but it would alleviate some of the issues with only having a 2-man party.

As far as the Paladin goes, I like where you're going with it. Personally, I love the Oath of Vengeance with a Greatsword, but they're all solid choices.

I'd probably take Resilient (Con) instead of Durable, but that might just be my playstyle.

[Arkhios]

30 dmg forces a concentration check with DC 15.

This. A DC 15 is hardly a problem with or without Resilient (Con)/Otherwise proficient Con saves, and even less with War Caster. A critical hit which damage halved to 30 would break your concentration, but that'd also mean you took 60 damage in total, so it's completely understandable that your concentration broke. Such is life, even for a god-mode character, sometimes you, too, fail.

[TelexFree]

Have you considered each running two characters? It may or may not be more complicated, but it would alleviate some of the issues with only having a 2-man party.

As far as the Paladin goes, I like where you're going with it. Personally, I love the Oath of Vengeance with a Greatsword, but they're all solid choices.

I'd probably take Resilient (Con) instead of Durable, but that might just be my playstyle.

We didn't consider it because we are new on 5e, so we first have to learn! :)