Skill god

[Demonu]

So I have this idea for the best skill build and I would like your input. The character leveling process is as follows:

Half-Elf: 2 skills, Common/Elvish/Other
Background: feature, 2 skills, 2 tools/languages

Lvl 1: Rogue 1 --> 4 skills, 2 expertise
Lvl 2: Rogue 1; Knowledge Cleric 1 --> 2 skills met expertise, lvl 1 spellcaster, 2 domain spells; 3 Cleric Cantrips
Lvl 3: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2 --> 1 skill per short rest with Channel Divinity; lvl 2 spellcaster; Cleric Spells = 2+Wis mod
Lvl 4: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2; Bard 1 --> 1 skill due to multiclassing; 2 Bard Cantrips, 4 Bard spells; lvl 3 spellcaster
Lvl 5: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2; Bard 2 --> jack of all trades; 5 Bard spells; lvl 4 spellcaster
Lvl 6: Rogue 1: K. Cleric 2; Lore Bard 3 --> 3 skills; 2 expertise; 6 Bard Spells, lvl 5 spellcaster
------------
Lvl 7: Rogue 2: K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3
Lvl 8: Arcane Trickster Rogue 3; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> mage hand + 2 Wizard cantrips, 3 lvl 1 Wizard spells; lvl 6 Spellcaster
Lvl 9: AR Rogue 4; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> Ability score increase
Lvl 10: AR Rogue 5; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3
Lvl 11: AR Rogue 6; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> 2 expertise; 1 Wizard spell of max 4th lvl, lvl 7 spellcaster
Lvl 12-20: increase L. Bard to lvl 12

If my calculations are correct, this would give you:
- 14 skills in which you are proficient with 10 of those having expertise
- Jack of all Trades on the remaining 4 skills in which you are not proficient
- 1 proficient skill per short rest with CD
- 3 languages (Half-Elf), 2 tools/languages (Thieves' tools could replace a proficient skill) and 2 languages from Knowledge Domain
- Rapier + light/medium armour + shield
- 4 Ability Increases (or feats) to boost a starting 16 Dex and starting 16 Cha to 20
- Sneak Attack for 3d6 damage

As a 16th level spellcaster:
- 10 cantrips: Mage hand + 2 Wizard cantrips; 3 Cleric cantrips and 4 Bard cantrips
- 2 Knowledge domain spells of lvl 1 and 2+Wis mod Cleric spells of lvl 1
- 4 Wizard spells of level 1 (mostly go for utility spells here)
- 13 Bard spells
- 4 spells from any class due to Bard's Magical Secrets at L. Bard lvl 6 and lvl 10

Class features:
- lvl 6 Rogue
- lvl 2 Cleric
- lvl 12 Bard

The only downside I see with this build is that you don't have access to lvl 9 spells and you're lagging behind on spell slots 1 or 2 levels when compared to PC's that don't multiclass but other than that, you're as good and frequently better than everyone else at anything else.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Gignere]

So I have this idea for the best skill build and I would like your input. The character leveling process is as follows:

Half-Elf: 2 skills, Common/Elvish/Other
Background: feature, 2 skills, 2 tools/languages

Lvl 1: Rogue 1 --> 4 skills, 2 expertise
Lvl 2: Rogue 1; Knowledge Cleric 1 --> 2 skills met expertise, lvl 1 spellcaster, 2 domain spells; 3 Cleric Cantrips
Lvl 3: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2 --> 1 skill per short rest with Channel Divinity; lvl 2 spellcaster; Cleric Spells = 2+Wis mod
Lvl 4: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2; Bard 1 --> 1 skill due to multiclassing; 2 Bard Cantrips, 4 Bard spells; lvl 3 spellcaster
Lvl 5: Rogue 1; K. Cleric 2; Bard 2 --> jack of all trades; 5 Bard spells; lvl 4 spellcaster
Lvl 6: Rogue 1: K. Cleric 2; Lore Bard 3 --> 3 skills; 2 expertise; 6 Bard Spells, lvl 5 spellcaster
------------
Lvl 7: Rogue 2: K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3
Lvl 8: Arcane Trickster Rogue 3; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> mage hand + 2 Wizard cantrips, 3 lvl 1 Wizard spells; lvl 6 Spellcaster
Lvl 9: AR Rogue 4; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> Ability score increase
Lvl 10: AR Rogue 5; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3
Lvl 11: AR Rogue 6; K. Cleric 2; L. Bard 3 --> 2 expertise; 1 Wizard spell of max 4th lvl, lvl 7 spellcaster
Lvl 12-20: increase L. Bard to lvl 12

If my calculations are correct, this would give you:
- 14 skills in which you are proficient with 10 of those having expertise
- Jack of all Trades on the remaining 4 skills in which you are not proficient
- 1 proficient skill per short rest with CD
- 3 languages (Half-Elf), 2 tools/languages (Thieves' tools could replace a proficient skill) and 2 languages from Knowledge Domain
- Rapier + light/medium armour + shield
- 4 Ability Increases (or feats) to boost a starting 16 Dex and starting 16 Cha to 20
- Sneak Attack for 3d6 damage

As a 16th level spellcaster:
- 10 cantrips: Mage hand + 2 Wizard cantrips; 3 Cleric cantrips and 4 Bard cantrips
- 2 Knowledge domain spells of lvl 1 and 2+Wis mod Cleric spells of 8th level or lower
- 4 Wizard spells of variable levels between 1 and 4, as you can replace them when you level up in Arcane Trickster
- 13 Bard spells
- 4 spells from any class due to Bard's Magical Secrets at L. Bard lvl 6 and lvl 10

Class features:
- lvl 6 Rogue
- lvl 2 Cleric
- lvl 12 Bard

The only downside I see with this build is that you don't have access to lvl 9 spells and you're lagging behind on spell slots 1 or 2 levels when compared to PC's that don't multiclass but other than that, you're as good and frequently better than everyone else at anything else.

What are your thoughts on this?

You don't get level 8 cleric or level 4 wizard spells with this build. The rule of multi classing is that you can only cast spells up to the level as if each multi class were single class. You have higher level spell slots but no access to higher level spells.

[Demonu]

Must have overlooked that.

Well, that does diminish the power curve a bit but not too much. The Arcana Rogue spells are more utility spells anyway that don't have something to gain by casting them at higher levels and the Cleric spells depend on what you take as level 1 spells. Bless, Command, Sanctuary, Identify (ritual) and Healing Word/Cure Wounds are pretty good spells throughout.

I did focus more on the out-of-combat side of the build.

[solidork]

The new UA Scout archetype for fighters is an option to consider, since you get 3 skills at 3rd level. Variant Human taking the Skilled Feat at level 1 is also an option. I also think you should get the Rogue ability that lets you take 10 on skill rolls you are proficient with if you are going to be a true 'skill god'.

I am actually playing a character like this (Variant Human + Skilled, Arcane Trickster Rogue angling for a Knowledge Cleric dip)

[Demonu]

The new UA Scout archetype for fighters is an option to consider, since you get 3 skills at 3rd level. Variant Human taking the Skilled Feat at level 1 is also an option. I also think you should get the Rogue ability that lets you take 10 on skill rolls you are proficient with if you are going to be a true 'skill god'.

I am actually playing a character like this (Variant Human + Skilled, Arcane Trickster Rogue angling for a Knowledge Cleric dip)
I don't use UA as that is not official yet.

And why Fighter? Expertise is better than just grabbing 3 skills + it makes the character too MAD

Taking Rogue up to level 11 makes you miss out on 2 counts of expertise as you can't get Bard to level 10. Besides, in contrary to what Einstein said, in D&D, God DOES play dice with the universe. Rolling the dice is much more fun than to just take 10 on a roll.

Anyway, human variant rogue with skilled and knowledge cleric gives you 12 skills with 6 expertise in contrast to the 14 skills with 10 expertise. You don't even need Reliable Talent: at level 20, every roles is going to have mod+12, mod+6 or mod+3. You got to be rolling crap to screw that up consistently enough to believe you need to take 10.

[solidork]

Yeah, I wasn't planning to take it quite as far as this build as far as devotion to this one focus goes. I brought the fighter variant up as a more martial alternative that also focuses on skills. They get to spend superiority dice on certain skills, which isn't as reliable as expertise but it's something.

Also, its not just taking 10 since you still get to try and roll higher than 10. But yeah, it might not be necessary.

Main point: I like these kinds of builds enough to actually play one. I like your post.

[Demonu]

Main point: I like these kinds of builds enough to actually play one. I like your post.Thanks, that's good to hear :smallsmile:

[Hairfish]

I suppose the main question is why you think this build would be more useful (in parties with 3+ characters) to the group than pretty much anything else. You won't have the stats to have a decent chance at making higher DC rolls for a lot of those skills, meaning the party members who took proficiency in skills that complement their stats should rightly shove your special snowflake out of the way and do it themselves to give the party the best shot at getting the task accomplished.

Got 3-5 people? Go straight lore bard, be the party face and use your college skill picks to grab skills the rest of the group didn't, get access to spells at the straight caster rate to keep up with the Joneses.

Got 6+ people? Every common skill and most of the uncommon ones are covered. Play a ranger or druid so you can be the one character who took Animal Handling.

[Shining Wrath]

Half elf lore bard:
2 from half elf, 2 from background, 3 from bard.
Level 2: Jack of all trades, so half proficiency in everything not proficient.
Level 3: Proficiency in 3 more from Lore, expertise in 2.

That's proficiency in 10, half-proficiency in the rest, expertise in 2 - and you'll get 9th level spells.

[Waffle_Iron]

A single level of ranger, and the skilled feat would give you all 18 skills.

[Demonu]

I suppose the main question is why you think this build would be more useful (in parties with 3+ characters) to the group than pretty much anything else. You won't have the stats to have a decent chance at making higher DC rolls for a lot of those skills, meaning the party members who took proficiency in skills that complement their stats should rightly shove your special snowflake out of the way and do it themselves to give the party the best shot at getting the task accomplished.

Got 3-5 people? Go straight lore bard, be the party face and use your college skill picks to grab skills the rest of the group didn't, get access to spells at the straight caster rate to keep up with the Joneses.

Got 6+ people? Every common skill and most of the uncommon ones are covered. Play a ranger or druid so you can be the one character who took Animal Handling.
It's a thought experiment. Obviously I'm not going to play it in an actual game because the character would overshadow any skill check.

But your assumption about the stats is wrong. Even if we apply this to a character with 10 in every stat and no modifiers, the expertise alone makes it on par with a 20 stat with a +5 modifier.
For instance:
- lvl 20 human commoner with 10 in Wisdom and proficiency in Perception with expertise = 1d20 + 12
- lvl 20 Cleric with 20 in Wisdom and proficiency in Perception = 1d20 + 11

At level 20, expertise outweights prof+max stat. Yes, during the leveling process, the character lags behind a bit but I'm focusing on the endgoal here. Also, considering the character would mostly be a spellcaster, I would start out with a stat spread of (half-elf) 8/14/11/14/14/16 to be have a +2 in every skill expect one (probably will be Athletics) and a +3 in Charisma checks. With the 4 ASI, you can get Cha to 20, take the Skilled feat and Resilient feat to get Con to 12 and Con saving throws. That gives at level 20:
- 1 skill you're not proficient in a +5, with the option of Channel Divinity to get +10 for 10 min
- Proficiency in 7 skills WITHOUT expertise a +8
- Proficiency in 10 skills WITH expertise a +14 or Cha checks a +17

This means that hitting a DC of 25, considered very hard, the following chance:
- Cha checks with expertise: 60% to hit 25 or higher
- Checks with expertise: 55% to hit 25 or higher
- Checks without expertise: 5% to hit 25 but that would take a nat20 so that would also hit higher DC

According to the math, Expertise beats out proficieny+max stat at level 20. That's not even getting into all the ways to get advantage on skill checks, most noticably Cha checks, so yes: my 'special little snowflake' would overshadow most everyone in the party in the RP and skill checks department.

[Levism84]

I think Jack of All Trades loses a bit of its punch with each new skill you gain proficiency in. I understand the purpose of the build is the get the most skills to be able to apply your proficiency to, but there might be better ways than going bard for JoAT. I know multiclass bard to level 3 and lore college grant a combined 4 skills and Expertise, but beyond that, why bother with bard? Even if you go bard 10 all you are doing is adding one more application of Expertise.

[Demonu]

I think Jack of All Trades loses a bit of its punch with each new skill you gain proficiency in. I understand the purpose of the build is the get the most skills to be able to apply your proficiency to, but there might be better ways than going bard for JoAT. I know multiclass bard to level 3 and lore college grant a combined 4 skills and Expertise, but beyond that, why bother with bard? Even if you go bard 10 all you are doing is adding one more application of Expertise.
Which is kind of my point. I don't mind losing Jack of all Trades if it means I have 10 applications of Expertise and proficiency in all the rest.

[djreynolds]

Which is kind of my point. I don't mind losing Jack of all Trades if it means I have 10 applications of Expertise and proficiency in all the rest.

You could go rogue 6 and 4 skills expertise, cleric 2 for 2 skills expertise, and bard 10 for 4 skills expertise, that's 10 skills expertise. And ranger 2 for 1 skill. and get lore bards skills and skill feat. You could have proficiency in everything if you are a half elf.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You could go anything20, then convince the DM to give you the Boon of All the Skills Regardless of How Many You Had Previously (which is less valuable to those with the strongest RP reasons to get it).

[Belac93]

It is possible to have all skills by level 8, if you try.
Scores= dex 16, wis 14, cha 16, int 10, con 12, str 8 +an ability score increase
Half-elf (Persuasion, Intimidation.)
skilled feat (Investigation, Animal Handling, Performance)
Background (sage) gives 2 (Arcana and History)
Start as rogue for 4 skills (Deception, Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception) and expertise in 2 (Perception, Stealth)
MC Level 4 Lore bard gives any 4 skills (Athletics, Insight, Medicine, Sleight of Hand), and expertise in 2 (Sleight of Hand, Deception), and have prof in all untrained
MC Knowledge cleric 2 gives 2 and expertise in same (Nature and Religion) +can gain prof in any one tool for 10 minutes.
MC Ranger 1 gives 1 (Survival)
Total: 17 skills, Expertise in 6. can gain prof in any tool for 10 minutes each day.
Hope this helped :smallsmile:

[Tanarii]

Total: 17 skills,
There are 18 skills.

[Belac93]

Thats a typo. The build gives you 18.