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JaronK
2007-06-13, 12:07 PM
I've never been particularly impressed by the various ninja classes (Rokugan Ninja, CA Ninja, Ninja Spy), as they all seem to be missing things which I think are necessary for playing a fantasy ninja (as is the rogue). The Swordsage gets a lot closer, and I decided to make a new base class loosely based on the swordsage. It loses out on hit dice, will saves, manuevers, special abilities, and school access, but gains a large number of ninja themed abilities. I'd love to here comentary on balance, theme, etc. All abilities of this class were taken from one of the following sources: Swordsage, CA Ninja, Rokugan Ninja, Ninja Spy, Scout.

Ninja Redux

Hit Die: D6

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device,
Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently,
Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Slight of Hand, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device,
Use Rope

Skill Points Per Level: 6 + Int Mod

Weapons and Armour Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with the Club, Dagger, Dart, Shortsword, Shuriken,
Katana, Ninja-to, Nunchaku, Sai, Kama, Chain, Kusari-Gama, Blowgun, Fukimi-Bari, War Fan, and Unarmed Strikes.
They are not proficient in any armour or shields.


Level BAB For Ref Wil Known Grant Stances Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 4 2 1 Sudden Strike +1d6, Unarmed Strike, Quick to Act +1, Trapfinding, Weapon Flexibility
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 4 2 1 Poison Use, AC Bonus
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 5 3 1 Sudden Strike +2d6, Uncanny Dodge
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 6 3 1 Speed of Darkness, Evasion, Slow Fall 20ft
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 6 4 2 Sudden Strike +3d6, Quick to Act +2
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 7 4 2 Improved Uncanny Dodge, Acrobatics +5
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 8 4 2 Sudden Strike +4d6, Speed Climb
8th +6 +2 +6 +2 8 4 2 Shadow Run, Great Leap, Slow Fall 30ft
9th +6 +3 +6 +3 9 4 3 Sudden Strike +5d6, Improved Poison Use
10th +7 +3 +7 +3 10 5 3 Blind Fight, Quick to Act +3, Thousand Faces (Disguise Self)
11th +8 +3 +7 +3 10 5 3 Sudden Strike +6d6
12th +9 +4 +8 +4 11 5 3 Acrobatics +10, Slow Fall 40ft
13th +9 +4 +8 +4 12 6 4 Sudden Strike +7d6, Hide in Plain Sight
14th +10 +4 +9 +4 12 6 4 Improved Evasion, Ghost Mind
15th +11 +5 +9 +5 13 6 4 Sudden Strike +8d6, Quick to Act +4
16th +12 +5 +10 +5 14 6 4 Ghost Sight, Slow Fall 50ft
17th +13 +5 +10 +5 14 6 5 Sudden Strike +9d6, Greater Poison use
18th +13 +6 +11 +6 15 7 5 Acrobatics +15, Poison Immunity
19th +14 +6 +11 +6 16 7 5 Sudden Strike +10d6, Slippery Mind
20th +15 +6 +12 +6 16 8 5 Quick to Act +5, Free Movement, Slow Fall 60ft, Thousand Faces (Alter Self)

Unarmed Strike: Ninjas are highly trained in fighting unarmed, giving them considerable
advantages when doing so, though not as many as a monk. At 1st level, a ninja gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A ninja's attacks may be with either fist interchangably
or even from elbows, knees, and feet. See the monk ability for details. However, a medium
sized ninja only does 1d6 damage (and a small one 1d4), and this amount does not increase as a ninja increases
in level.

Sudden Strike: See Complete Adventurer Ninja

Manuevers: A Ninja knows martial manuevers, much like a swordsage, but with the following
exceptions. They may only take manuevers and stances from the Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand,
Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Diamond Mind Schools, and they have fewer manuevers and
stances available to them.

Quick to Act (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus increases by 1 at
5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

Trapfinding: See the Rogue class feature

Weapon Flexibility: A ninja treats all fineseable weapons, as well as the katana, as prefered weapons for
the Shadow Hand school.

Poison Use: Ninja are trained in the use of poison and, beginning at 2nd level, never risk accidentally poisoning
themselves when poisoning a blade. Starting at 9th level, a ninja can poison a weapon as a move action (normally,
this would be a standard action). Starting at 17th level, a ninja can poison a weapon as a swift action.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, Ninja gain a bonus to their AC equal to their Wisdom bonus when wearing light armour
or no armour. A ninja must be aware to use this bonus, as such it does not apply if the ninja is flat footed.

Uncanny Dodge: Starting at 3rd level, as the Rogue class feature. At 6th level, this becomes Improved Uncanny Dodge

Speed of Darkness: Starting at 4th level, A ninja gains a bonus to initiative equal to his intelligence bonus.

Evasion: At 4th level, A ninja takes no damage if he successfully makes a reflex save against an effect that
would normally cause half damage on a successful save, see the rogue class feature for details. A ninja can only use
this ability when wearing light or no armour and carrying no more than a light load. This ability becomes Improved
Evasion at level 14.

Slow Fall: At 4th level or higher, a ninja within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When
first using this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The ninja's
ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves
with his ninja level until a 20th level he can use a nearby wall to reduce the damage as if the fall was 60
feet shorter.

Acrobatics: Starting at 6th level, a Ninja gains incredibe acrobatic abilities. He gains a +5 bonus to Balance, Climb,
Jump, and Tumble checks when wearing light or no armour. At 12th level this increases to +10, and at 18 this increases
to +15.

Speed Climb: A ninja of 7th level or higher can scramble up or down walls and slopes with great speed. He can climb
at his speed as a move action with no penalty. However, he must begin and end the round on a horizontal surface (such
as the ground or rooftop). If he does not end his movement on a horizontal surface he falls, taking falling damage as
appropriate for his height above the ground.
A ninja needs only one hand free to use this ability. This ability can be used only if a ninja is wearing no armour
and carrying no more than a light load.

Shadow Run: A Ninja gains a bonus to his speed at level 8 equal to 5 feet times his con bonus. He can use this ability
when wearing light or no armour and carrying no more than a light load.

Great Leap: Starting at 8th level, a ninja always makes jump checks as if he were running and had the run feat,
enabling him to make long jumps without a running start and granting a +4 bonus on the jump. This bonus does not
stack with the bonus from the run feat. A ninja can use this ability when wearing light or no armour and carrying
no more than a light load.

Blind Fight: At 10th level a ninja gains the Blind Fight feat as a bonus feat.

Thousand Faces: At 10th level, a ninja's training allows him to become a master of disguise. He may use Disguise Self
at will, with a caster level equal to his ninja level. At 20th level, his training allows him to actually take on
some of the traits of those he disguises himself as, and he can then use Alter Self at will, again with a caster level
equal to his ninja level.

Hide in Plain Sight: At 13th level, a ninja can hide even while being observed. See the Ranger class ability, except
that the ninja can hide in any terrain. A ninja cannot use this abiilty while wearing more than light armour or
carrying more than a light load.

Ghost Mind: Starting at 14th level, a ninja gains a special resistance to spells of the scrying subschool. To
detect or see a ninja with such a spell, the caster must make a caster level check (DC 20 + ninja class level).
In the case of scrying spells such as arcane eye that scan the ninja's area, a failed check indicates that the
spell works but the ninja simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts targetted specifically at the ninja do not work
at all if the check fails.

Ghost Sight: At 16th level and higher a ninja can see invisible and ethereal creatures as easily as she sees
material creatures and objects.

Poison Immunity: Starting at 18th level, a ninja becomes completely immune to the effects of poisons.

Slippery Mind: See the Rogue class feature.

Free Movement: A 20th level (or higher!) ninja can slip out of virtually any entrapment. This counts as a
freedom of movement spell which is always active on the ninja. A ninja cannot use this abiilty while wearing more than light armour or
carrying more than a light load.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-13, 03:57 PM
I'm trying to figure out if this is OP....


Well, let's compare to rogue, first of all.

1: HD; same.
2: Skill points: rogue has 2 more/level.
3: Skill list: Rogue also has appraise, diplomacy, intimidate, Know (local), and use rope. Ninja also has concentration, which rogue does not. And it's spelled "sleight of hand", just for alphabetical order :smallsmile:
4: BAB: Same.
5: Saves: same.
6: Proficiencies: Rogue has light armour, and all simple weaps, couple of others. Ninja gets a buch of exotic weapons, which are generally better (do I see a spiked chain!?).
7: Abilities.

Rogue gets trapfinding, evasion, sneak attack, trap sense, uncanny/improved uncanny dodge, 4 special abilities.

Ninja gets initiative boost, (INT+up to 5), sudden strike, manuvers (Damn, getting ToB soon :/), trapfinding, use of all finessable weaps as shadow hand weaps (DEX TO DAMAGE!), poison use and fast, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, evasion, imp evasion, wis to AC, slow fall, really, really crazy bonuses to balance, climb, jump and tumble (+15?! Each of those normally costs 22.5K, and a body slot, so that's 90K of custom item equivalents), effectively running up walls, con bonus to speed, leap of the heavens as a bonus feat (effectively), blind fight, disguise self, then alter self at will, hide in plain sight, nigh immunity to scrying (unless a much higher level wizard does it. Wizards of the same level have 5% chance of noticing!), slippery mind, permanent see invisibility, poison immunity, and freedom of movement at all times.

Slight difference. So...

Ninja gets all rogue features, except for two of the special abilities, and the ability to select the abilities. No sneak attack, but sudden strike, which is worse. No trap sense, but no one cares.

In return, they get a LOT.

I have no idea where to begin. It's not as bad as some of the cheese someone I know claims they see homebrewed, but right now, it's not quite balanced, IMO.

Except rogue isn't tier 2 anyways :smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2007-06-13, 04:18 PM
I'm trying to figure out if this is OP....


Well, let's compare to rogue, first of all.

1: HD; same.

Though the ninja has more MAD, due to needing wisdom, so his hitpoints should be a touch lower in the end.


2: Skill points: rogue has 2 more/level.

As before, MAD should mean the ninja has even fewer skill points.


3: Skill list: Rogue also has appraise, diplomacy, intimidate, Know (local), and use rope. Ninja also has concentration, which rogue does not. And it's spelled "sleight of hand", just for alphabetical order :smallsmile:

Err, I'll fix that spelling. Note that the ninja also has use rope, I just formatted it weird by accident. Ninjas get concentration because that's a linked skill for one of their schools (Diamond Mind). I figure the loss of diplomacy has to count somewhere, as that's a powerful skill.

[quiote]4: BAB: Same.
5: Saves: same.
6: Proficiencies: Rogue has light armour, and all simple weaps, couple of others. Ninja gets a buch of exotic weapons, which are generally better (do I see a spiked chain!?).[/quote]

No, you don't see Spiked Chain. You see Chain, which is a weapon first introduced in Oriental Adventures. And the ninja weapons aren't actually all that strong... they're all light weapons, often with weird funky special abilities that are characterful, but not that fun. For example, a Ninja-to is basically a shortsword, except you can use the sheath as a club if you want, and the Nunchaku, Sai, and Kama are pretty weak, but are monk weapons. I think that rogues, with their access to the rapier and compound shortbow, have better weapons. The ninja has almost no decent ranged weapons, in fact.


7: Abilities.

Rogue gets trapfinding, evasion, sneak attack, trap sense, uncanny/improved uncanny dodge, 4 special abilities.

Ninja gets initiative boost, (INT+up to 5), sudden strike, manuvers (Damn, getting ToB soon :/), trapfinding, use of all finessable weaps as shadow hand weaps (DEX TO DAMAGE!), poison use and fast, uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, evasion, imp evasion, wis to AC, slow fall, really, really crazy bonuses to balance, climb, jump and tumble (+15?! Each of those normally costs 22.5K, and a body slot, so that's 90K of custom item equivalents), effectively running up walls, con bonus to speed, leap of the heavens as a bonus feat (effectively), blind fight, disguise self, then alter self at will, hide in plain sight, nigh immunity to scrying (unless a much higher level wizard does it. Wizards of the same level have 5% chance of noticing!), slippery mind, permanent see invisibility, poison immunity, and freedom of movement at all times.

Slight difference. So...

Yeah, the Ninja does get a ton of random abilities. I don't think any of them are all that strong. The +15 to climb, for example, means very little considering Shadow Hand already has a stance that gives you Spider Climb free. Likewise, a big boost to balance rarely comes in handy, and jumping really high is great with the Tiger Claw school, but otherwise is completely superceeded by any item with flight. Most of the abilities are just characterful, as opposed to super powerful... when was the last time you needed blind fighting? There are a few strong ones in there (permanent see invis and freedom of movement, for example), but mostly it's just flavor.


I have no idea where to begin. It's not as bad as some of the cheese someone I know claims they see homebrewed, but right now, it's not quite balanced, IMO.

Except rogue isn't tier 2 anyways :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, rogues aren't that strong anyway, so I'm not too worried if they're a touch better in some areas. Rogues however have a few huge advantages over this ninja. For one, they have sneak attack, which is a lot better than sudden strike... especially since the ninja has no ability to become invisible or otherwise trigger sudden strike except by winning initiative (which shouldn't be too hard). They also have access to Crippling Strike, which is incredible. They have less MAD and better skills, plus more skill access, which has to help. They do not, however, get manuevers, which are a big one.


With that said, it's balanced against the Swordsage, which is indeed teir 2. Compared to a swordsage, they have lower HD, worse saves, 2/3 the manuevers known, 2/3 the manuevers granted, 1 less stance, no free weapon focus, no free ac boost, no dual boost, one less school available, no wis to damage (swordsages get dex + wis to damage if they want!), in return for a bunch of special abilities. It's pretty close, I think.

Thank you for your comments... it's still a work in progress. I'll certainly think about potencially toning it down, especially if others think it's too strong.

JaronK