Thunderous Throw question

[Dysjong]

So I am tinkering with a gestalt idea for a warhammer wielding female dragon rider cloistered cleric and the idea with throwing a hammer while riding a dragon...dreams can come true!!!

Anyway, when I look upon the build, on papir it looks solid but I ran into a certain...problem and confusion. regarding bloodstorm blade and Thunderous throw.

In the build, I have include 3 flaws where one of them is Shaky:
Benefit

You take a -2 penalty on all ranged attack rolls.

Also in the build, I have added Ranged weapon mastery:
Benefit

When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a ranged weapon that deals this type of damage. When using any ranged weapon that has the damage type you selected, you gain a +2 bonus on attacks and a +2 bonus on damage. In addition, you increase its range increment by 20 feet.

Plus with point blank shot.....my confusion is how does all of these feats and flaws fit into the overall idea when I use Thunderous throw?

[P.F.]

Well that is a thorny little knot of rules there.

Obviously if you are making a ranged attack you still have use certain rules for ranged combat, even if you are treating it as a melee attack. In fact, only your "attack roll" is treated as a melee attack; other ranged combat rules and abilities should apply normally. Range increment explicitly applies, so the range increment improvement should also work. To-hit is explicitly excluded, however, so you won't gain that benefit of your ranged weapon mastery, but neither would you take the penalty for being shakey. Damage isn't described as being "as melee," but instead explicitly allows for power attack and two-handed strength bonus, so your +2 damage will apply as well.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a couple things you need to know about thrown weapon combat, whether you just work around them, or convince your DM to change them:

Firstly, throwing a two-handed weapon (or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands) takes a full-round action, and there is AFAIK no way by RAW to get around this. For the record, I think it's a good thing that there's no way around this by RAW, but thrown weapon combat has some other problems that make this one a minor annoyance at best.

Secondly, Thunderous Throw lets you use your melee attack roll to make a ranged attack, but it does not change the fact that you're making a ranged attack, or that you're using whatever kind of weapon you're using. Thus, you can apply Power Attack and the like (since that affects attack rolls), but Thunderous Throw does not let you use a thrown weapon attack at the end of a charge, since it's not actually a melee attack.

Thirdly, thrown weapons are a little weird: a thrown weapon is only a ranged weapon if it can't usually be used in melee (such as a dart); if it can be used in melee, it's a melee weapon...which means you can't apply Ranged Weapon Mastery to most thrown weapons, unless you can convince your DM to change that fact (this is usually an easy sell in my experience; I've even had DMs say its okay for me to take both and apply both if I'm using Thunderous Throw). A melee weapon does not become a ranged weapon just because you learn how to throw it.

So what does this all mean for you? It means that Shaky only applies if you're not using Thunderous Throw, and it means that Point Blank Shot does not by RAW apply to most thrown weapon attacks. Yes, that means it's a stupid Pre-req feat. Yes, that means you should convince your DM to let you use it that way anyway. Hopefully that helps you out.

[AvatarVecna]

Damage isn't described as being "as melee," but instead explicitly allows for power attack and two-handed strength bonus, so your +2 damage will apply as well.

"Ranged Weapon Mastery" only applies its bonuses to ranged weapons you have Weapon Focus/Specialization in; if you don't have WF/WS for a ranged weapon, it doesn't apply at all.

[Dysjong]

P.F. - indeed it is a knots of rules! :D

AvatarVecna - That explains a lot and give some food for future thoughts. It is stil weird that it requires point blank shot for that prestige class.

The reason I picked up ranged weapon mastery was to incresse the range for a warhammer if thrown. Either I will stick with melee version then or talk with the GM about it.

[Dysjong]

Here I found this feat from Epic handbook, that stil makes me question about ranged and throw weapons.

Storm of throws:

You become a flurry of thrown weapons, targeting all nearby opponents.

Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot (PH) , Quick Draw (PH) , Rapid Shot (PH) , DEX 23,


Benefit

As a full-round action, you may throw a light weapon at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet. All light weapons thrown need not be the same type; for instance, a human could throw a mix of daggers, darts, and throwing axes.

While the rules. does define a ranged weapon, this feat stil....it makes me question some of them rules. If point blank shot is required to pick this up...then one CAN assume that point blank shot, does INDEED work on thrown weapons...but.. 3rd edition, maybe it has changed abit sinds 3.5

[AvatarVecna]

P.F. - indeed it is a knots of rules! :D

AvatarVecna - That explains a lot and give some food for future thoughts. It is stil weird that it requires point blank shot for that prestige class.

The reason I picked up ranged weapon mastery was to incresse the range for a warhammer if thrown. Either I will stick with melee version then or talk with the GM about it.

Glad I could help. The thrown weapon rules are complicated and obsessed with making thrown weapon combat realistic...in other words, crappy. Bloodstorm Blade requiring Point Blank Shot isn't terrible (since PBS is a pre-req for Far Shot, which every thrower wants), but that Point Blank Shot doesn't work with melee weapons you throw is a bit weird. My suggestion would be to talk to your DM about a lot of things, such as pretending some ranged feats refer to "ranged attack" rather than "ranged weapon" where it makes sense, or allowing a thrown weapon to count as a ranged weapon for the purposes of such feats, even though it's not a thrown weapon.

[AvatarVecna]

Here I found this feat from Epic handbook, that stil makes me question about ranged and throw weapons.

Storm of throws:

You become a flurry of thrown weapons, targeting all nearby opponents.

Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot (PH) , Quick Draw (PH) , Rapid Shot (PH) , DEX 23,


Benefit

As a full-round action, you may throw a light weapon at your full base attack bonus at each opponent within 30 feet. All light weapons thrown need not be the same type; for instance, a human could throw a mix of daggers, darts, and throwing axes.

While the rules. does define a ranged weapon, this feat stil....it makes me question some of them rules. If point blank shot is required to pick this up...then one CAN assume that point blank shot, does INDEED work on thrown weapons...but.. 3rd edition, maybe it has changed abit sinds 3.5

What we can see from this is that "Point Blank Shot" was intended to work with thrown weapons (Rules as Intended) but the wording of the feat and the thrown weapon rules insists that it does not (Rules As Written). Thrown weapon combat is just one of those parts of RAW that's so complicated a lot of weird stuff starts happening, and it's often just easier to use RAI than RAW. Still, make sure to talk to your DM about these issues; unless they're a complete hard-ass about sticking to RAW, or they think that fighters can't have nice things, they'll probably listen and make rulings in your favor.

[Dysjong]

Thank you both for your time and explanation :D Still cooking on that dragon rider warhammer throwing cleric :D

[MisterKaws]

It treats the attacks as melee, you gain bonuses for Melee Weapon Mastery when using it, not the ranged version.

[AvatarVecna]

It treats the attacks as melee, you gain bonuses for Melee Weapon Mastery when using it, not the ranged version.

Your conclusion is the same conclusion RAW comes to, but not by the logic you've used: Thunderous Throw lets you make a ranged attack using your melee attack roll, it does not make your ranged attack a melee attack, as evidenced by it explicitly mentioning that most of the rules for ranged attacks still apply (such as throwing into melee, range penalties, etc). But none of that matters, because Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery only care about whether you're using a melee or ranged weapon, not what kind of attack it is or what attack roll you're using for it. If you have Melee Weapon Mastery based on your Weapon Focus/Specialization (Dagger), you still get your Melee Weapon Mastery bonuses when you throw the dagger, because it's still a melee weapon.

[MisterKaws]

Your conclusion is the same conclusion RAW comes to, but not by the logic you've used: Thunderous Throw lets you make a ranged attack using your melee attack roll, it does not make your ranged attack a melee attack, as evidenced by it explicitly mentioning that most of the rules for ranged attacks still apply (such as throwing into melee, range penalties, etc). But none of that matters, because Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery only care about whether you're using a melee or ranged weapon, not what kind of attack it is or what attack roll you're using for it. If you have Melee Weapon Mastery based on your Weapon Focus/Specialization (Dagger), you still get your Melee Weapon Mastery bonuses when you throw the dagger, because it's still a melee weapon.

If that was the case, couldn't anyone pick Throw Anything to treat all weapons as ranged weapons and thus be qualified to use ranged weapon mastery at any time you have a weapon with that damage time?

[AvatarVecna]

If that was the case, couldn't anyone pick Throw Anything to treat all weapons as ranged weapons and thus be qualified to use ranged weapon mastery at any time you have a weapon with that damage time?

Not by RAW, no. And I quote:
Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Whether a weapon is a melee or ranged weapon is determined by one thing, and one thing only: can that weapon be used to make a melee attack without penalty? If the answer is 'yes', it's a melee weapon; if the answer is 'no', it's a ranged weapon. The feat "Throw Anything" lets you throw weapons without taking a penalty from them not being designed for throwing, but that does not make them ranged weapons, because they can still be used in melee, and that's all that matters for determining what kind of weapon it is. A thrown weapon that can be used effectively in melee is a melee weapon, regardless of whether it's being used to make a melee or ranged attack at the moment.

There are three questions RAW asks when you attacking something: what kind of attack are you making, what attack roll are you using, and what kind of weapon are you using? Most of the time the answers to these questions are identical (all melee, or all ranged) and the rules operate just fine...but some thrown weapons are melee weapons, which screws things up...and Thunderous Throw lets you use your melee attack roll instead of a ranged one, which screws things up even more.

EDIT: Things like this is why I'm putting together an "Introduction to Thrown Weapon Combat" guide, to help people learn their way around the weird relationship RAW has with thrown weapons. It's complicated, and often stupid, but it's the rules, and knowing what the problems are helps you either look for ways to solve them, or shows you what you need to show your DM for them to fix via fiat.

[MisterKaws]

Not by RAW, no. And I quote:

Whether a weapon is a melee or ranged weapon is determined by one thing, and one thing only: can that weapon be used to make a melee attack without penalty? If the answer is 'yes', it's a melee weapon; if the answer is 'no', it's a ranged weapon. The feat "Throw Anything" lets you throw weapons without taking a penalty from them not being designed for throwing, but that does not make them ranged weapons, because they can still be used in melee, and that's all that matters for determining what kind of weapon it is. A thrown weapon that can be used effectively in melee is a melee weapon, regardless of whether it's being used to make a melee or ranged attack at the moment.

There are three questions RAW asks when you attacking something: what kind of attack are you making, what attack roll are you using, and what kind of weapon are you using? Most of the time the answers to these questions are identical (all melee, or all ranged) and the rules operate just fine...but some thrown weapons are melee weapons, which screws things up...and Thunderous Throw lets you use your melee attack roll instead of a ranged one, which screws things up even more.

EDIT: Things like this is why I'm putting together an "Introduction to Thrown Weapon Combat" guide, to help people learn their way around the weird relationship RAW has with thrown weapons. It's complicated, and often stupid, but it's the rules, and knowing what the problems are helps you either look for ways to solve them, or shows you what you need to show your DM for them to fix via fiat.

In short, he can't use ranged weapon mastery, because weapons used in Thunderous throw, as they're effective, and are even being used, in theory, at melee combat.

[AvatarVecna]

In short, he can't use ranged weapon mastery, because weapons used in Thunderous throw, as they're effective, and are even being used, in theory, at melee combat.

In short, he can't used ranged weapon mastery with his thrown weapon because his weapon is a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon. A warhammer is a melee weapon regardless of Thunderous Throw, regardless of whether it's being thrown or not, because none of those things change how effective it is in melee. It's incredibly stupid, yes, but that's RAW for you. Again, this is why I've suggested multiple times to the OP to talk to their DM about ignoring the stupid parts of the rules.

[Dysjong]

Yeah I agree with you on that one, better talk with a GM about it. Stil it is nice to know those RAW rules, just in case :'P

[Jormengand]

Not by RAW, no. And I quote:


Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

The quote is pretty ambiguous, though. Plus, this is odd, because the weird quarterstaff-bow thing is therefore a melee weapon and never a ranged one, so you're probably better off ignoring the "Not effective in melee" bit anyway, but whatever.

[AvatarVecna]

The quote is pretty ambiguous, though. Plus, this is odd, because the weird quarterstaff-bow thing is therefore a melee weapon and never a ranged one, so you're probably better off ignoring the "Not effective in melee" bit anyway, but whatever.

I'll admit it's been awhile since I reviewed the grammar behind that rule, but my recollection of how it works out by grammar RAW is:

"{Ranged Weapon}={Thrown/Projectile Weapon} if {not usable in melee}"

rather than

"{Ranged Weapon}={Thrown Weapon} or {[Projectile Weapon] if [not usable in melee]}

Under either definition, the weird elven bows that are designed to be used as melee weapons are yet another layer of exceptions to exceptions to exceptions to the general rule.

Regardless of whether my particular recollection is grammatically correct, it's the one I assume when reading the rules because the alternative is "some thrown weapons are melee, others are ranged, and there's no RAW way of figuring out which is which". Ironically, the explanation that requires most thrown weapons to be melee weapons is the less stupid interpretation, at least compared to "they're either one or the other, but RAW doesn't specify either way".

Again, this is why I'm putting together a mini-guide for people wanting to get into thrown weapons: it's a complicated mess of stupidly-worded, poorly-thought-out rules that try and fail to mix RAW and RAI with a realistic representation or IRL thrown weapon combat in a fantasy setting.