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View Full Version : An Alternate History of Rokugan (L5R)



Grytorm
2016-01-08, 12:54 AM
Hello, I hope this isn't seen as to sacricannonist but I felt that in the background of Rokugan things don't really change much. Things happen but they don't seem like they really connect in a sensible way, at least in the core book. So I decided to outline an alternate timeline, many of the elements are the same. However I did introduce a few new things. And some of the events while similar will be very different.

As of yet it is incomplete with no dates. Overall I imagine this history going roughly from 500-1000. The history of the empire before this point is much more mythical. And has a lot more lies about what really happened. So does anyone like it? And can anyone suggest some other possible events, especially ones that would involve the Dragon and Phoenix, they get the short end of the stick to some extent. Thank you for the consideration.

• Imperial Dominance
o In later eras this is seen as a kind of golden age. I don’t know what kind of details to add, but it is when the Imperial family is the most widely respected. And a certain kind of prosperity rules the land.
• Steel Chrysanthenum
o Hantei XIV a brutal dictator and madman. He performs great blasphemes when he marries both of his sisters and eventually executes one of them. Eventually he is murdered with the assistance of his own guardsmen. He is succeeded by his aging uncle who becomes Hantei XV, a historian who was forbidden by his nephew to marry. The ban lifted it takes him a while to succeed in his matrimonial duties.
• Gozuku Era
o When Hantei XV dies his potential successors are his young children or the sister of Hantei XIV, who is not quite as crazy but you should see her son. The Scorpion, Crane and Phoenix have the sister of the Steel Chrysanthenum and her progeny murdered; they then assume a great deal of control of the Imperial state.
• Return of the Unicorn
o The Unicorn are not really returning branch of Rokugani culture. In truth they are quite different, although the nomads that make them up do trace their ancestry to the Kami. Although the stories call Hantei a tyrant. They conquer wide swathes of territory killing thousands. The Scorpion are the worst hit destabilizing the Gozuku alliance. Eventually they settle down, but are not truly part of the Empire.
• Lion Shogunate
o The Lion Clan sees weakness and wage war on the Gozuku, eventually subjugating the Crane and the Scorpion. They declare that it is improper for the Imperial family to lower themselves to earthly concerns of governance and begin dismantling parts of the old system and building a power base; however the system of Jade Magistrates is still under the Emperor’s authority. The Phoenix, Dragon and Crab clans willingly swear loyalty to the Lion. The Unicorn Clan is conquered sometime after the initial power grab.
• Mantis Piracy
o Piracy has always been a problem. The Minor Clan known as the Mantis have existed somewhat outside of the normal functions of the empire. Borrowing a great deal of culture but remaining mostly independent. In this era they grow bold in their raids. They dominate several other minor clans and eventually swear fealty to the Lion and are recognized as a major clan.
• Scorpion Clan Coup
• War against the Scorpion
• Return of Ichiuban
• Second “Day of Thunder”
• Crab Clan Fights Everyone
• Rise of the Spider Clan

BWR
2016-01-08, 03:30 AM
I don't really see how this makes any more sense than the canon. In many ways it makes less sense. This is not just rearranging some events, you are actively changing the nature of several clans.



• Return of the Unicorn
o The Unicorn are not really returning branch of Rokugani culture. In truth they are quite different, although the nomads that make them up do trace their ancestry to the Kami. Although the stories call Hantei a tyrant. They conquer wide swathes of territory killing thousands. The Scorpion are the worst hit destabilizing the Gozuku alliance. Eventually they settle down, but are not truly part of the Empire.


So basically you've remade the Unicorn? In what way? To what? Unless these Unicorn left during the reign of the Steel Chrystanthemum, it doesn't jive with your statement of the Imperial age being remembered as a Golden Age, and you are making Shinjo into a vastly different person than she is canonically. In order to hit the Scorpion worst, the Unicorn have to come through either the Crab or the Lion territories, which is impressive. Where do they settle down? Are they considered less part of the empire in this version than they are canonically? If so, why are they tolerated? Can they even claim to be the returning Ki-rin clan? If not (as they proved canonically by returning Doji's fan to the Crane), they would have been eliminated.



• Lion Shogunate
o The Lion Clan sees weakness and wage war on the Gozuku, eventually subjugating the Crane and the Scorpion. They declare that it is improper for the Imperial family to lower themselves to earthly concerns of governance and begin dismantling parts of the old system and building a power base; however the system of Jade Magistrates is still under the Emperor’s authority. The Phoenix, Dragon and Crab clans willingly swear loyalty to the Lion. The Unicorn Clan is conquered sometime after the initial power grab.


I suppose I can see some strange alt-u version of the Lion doing that, even if the real reason they fought against the Gozoku was not only hatred for the clans involved but for the true dominance of the emperor. This sort of politicking is very out of character for the Lion and the mental hoops they would have to jump through to justify it are torturous and hypocritical. The Lion are a bit hypocritical so they might just pull it off (maybe), because what they are doing is basically what the Gozoku did. I cannot see the Dragon, Phoenix and Crab 'swearing allegiance' to the Lion. doing that they are putting the Lion above the Emperor. The Phoenix, being former Gozoku, are unlikely and the Crab don't want to admit anyone is stronger than they (imagine the Lion swearing loyalty to the Crab...not gonna happen), and the Dragon would treat this as just like Gozoku thingy and not get involved.



• Mantis Piracy
o Piracy has always been a problem. The Minor Clan known as the Mantis have existed somewhat outside of the normal functions of the empire. Borrowing a great deal of culture but remaining mostly independent. In this era they grow bold in their raids. They dominate several other minor clans and eventually swear fealty to the Lion and are recognized as a major clan.


Huh? Again, clans acting very out of character. Why would the Lion accept filthy pirates and law-breakers as a real clan? You would be rewarding their dishonorable and illegal conduct with one of the greatest honors the Empire can give. Canonically, the piracy thing is one of the main issues the Lion have had against the Mantis and even then it is greatly exaggerated in scope and seriousness. Face it, had the Mantis not been mostly traders they would have been eliminated. Far more likely is that the Empire would engage in a long and bloody war against savage pirates. The Mantis would have better ships and sailors but even with their islands they could not withstand a concerted campaign of extermination by the Empire, which is what is more likely to happen if the Mantis actually tried to ramp up their piracy enough that an entire period is famous for it.

I suppose if there were enough internal problems at the time the Lion might be forced to make some political compromises, but make no mistake: the Mantis would be targeted for eradication at some later point because no one bears a grudge like the Lion. At some point down the road, the Lion will use some minor incident as an excuse to go after the Mantis and this time they would be able to have, by your design, two of the most three most powerful military clans to help. The Mantis would be squashed sooner or later. Probably sooner.




• Scorpion Clan Coup
• War against the Scorpion
• Return of Ichiuban
• Second “Day of Thunder”
• Crab Clan Fights Everyone
• Rise of the Spider Clan

OK, this raises some interesting question. Did you intentionally get things out of order?
First, what is the war against the Scorpion Clan? Isn't that basically the Clan Wars?
Why does Iuchiban come back in the middle of that, and not after the 2DoT?
Why would the Crab fight everyone? Isn't that basically what they did in the Clan Wars? I love the Crab but I don't see how this would be in any way anything but a curbstomp of my favorite clan unless they abandoned their duties or joined with the SL again, either of which would be stupid beyond belief.

Grytorm
2016-01-08, 03:04 PM
I don't really see how this makes any more sense than the canon. In many ways it makes less sense. This is not just rearranging some events, you are actively changing the nature of several clans.

Thank you for your thoughts. I thought my ideas might not go over well but I thought it was worth putting them up anyway. Mainly it makes more sense to me to have events make larger changes to the status quo and lead into each other. And I also wanted to change the status quo so more variety in how Rokugani society functions as an empire. I know Japan changed greatly in different eras. Even if the Emperor still existed.

The one change I made which I do think is definitely good is the Gozuku era being spawned in the aftermath of the Steel Chrysanthenum, although making his life be similar to Caligula is probably less of a good idea.


So basically you've remade the Unicorn? In what way? To what? Unless these Unicorn left during the reign of the Steel Chrystanthemum, it doesn't jive with your statement of the Imperial age being remembered as a Golden Age, and you are making Shinjo into a vastly different person than she is canonically. In order to hit the Scorpion worst, the Unicorn have to come through either the Crab or the Lion territories, which is impressive. Where do they settle down? Are they considered less part of the empire in this version than they are canonically? If so, why are they tolerated? Can they even claim to be the returning Ki-rin clan? If not (as they proved canonically by returning Doji's fan to the Crane), they would have been eliminated.

Remembered as a golden age does not necessarily mean that it always went over that well. Mostly I mean the hundred or so years before the Steel Chrys are what is associated with the golden age. The events before then would be treated if I used this history as much more mythical. And I would have the Kami be actually have existed, but they were much more fractious in my imagination, and maybe Fu Leng was corrupted later in the prehistory. And you assume that steppe nomads are not scary. Steppe empires causing serious problems for well established states wasn't uncommon for much of history. I imagine them as a dangerous group with some early ties to Rokugani culture which are more initially seen mostly as Gaijin, but as they don't leave they transform into a more accepted group.

I'm basing many of my ideas on the map of Rokugan in the back of the book. So that probably skews things. And the history section in the book does make note of their initial conflicts with the Lion and the Scorpion.


I suppose I can see some strange alt-u version of the Lion doing that, even if the real reason they fought against the Gozoku was not only hatred for the clans involved but for the true dominance of the emperor. This sort of politicking is very out of character for the Lion and the mental hoops they would have to jump through to justify it are torturous and hypocritical. The Lion are a bit hypocritical so they might just pull it off (maybe), because what they are doing is basically what the Gozoku did. I cannot see the Dragon, Phoenix and Crab 'swearing allegiance' to the Lion. doing that they are putting the Lion above the Emperor. The Phoenix, being former Gozoku, are unlikely and the Crab don't want to admit anyone is stronger than they (imagine the Lion swearing loyalty to the Crab...not gonna happen), and the Dragon would treat this as just like Gozoku thingy and not get involved.

The Lion aren't the best fit in some ways. But they are the most militaristic of the clans who seem to be in the core territory of the Empire. But as I said I wanted a changing status quo. The difference would be that the Gozuku are ruling from the shadows while maintaining the fiction that the Emperor is really ruling, but the Lion being in charge would be claiming they should rule the temporal world in the name of the emperor. Very out in the open. After a period of weak emperors and a Tyrant starting it all off.

On the Dragon, Phoenix and Crab going along with it. At least the Phoenix might go along with it if the Lion had already proven dominance over the Crane and Scorpion. The Dragon and Crab I can't justify as much except having the Dragon just go with it.


Huh? Again, clans acting very out of character. Why would the Lion accept filthy pirates and law-breakers as a real clan? You would be rewarding their dishonorable and illegal conduct with one of the greatest honors the Empire can give. Canonically, the piracy thing is one of the main issues the Lion have had against the Mantis and even then it is greatly exaggerated in scope and seriousness. Face it, had the Mantis not been mostly traders they would have been eliminated. Far more likely is that the Empire would engage in a long and bloody war against savage pirates. The Mantis would have better ships and sailors but even with their islands they could not withstand a concerted campaign of extermination by the Empire, which is what is more likely to happen if the Mantis actually tried to ramp up their piracy enough that an entire period is famous for it.

I suppose if there were enough internal problems at the time the Lion might be forced to make some political compromises, but make no mistake: the Mantis would be targeted for eradication at some later point because no one bears a grudge like the Lion. At some point down the road, the Lion will use some minor incident as an excuse to go after the Mantis and this time they would be able to have, by your design, two of the most three most powerful military clans to help. The Mantis would be squashed sooner or later. Probably sooner.

A better way to phrase this is that they were a peripheral group in the empire mostly focusing on trading and light piracy. The Lion have to focus a lot of effort inward on retaining control for a good time leading to the Mantis independently trying to gain more influence and power. Most acts of warfare on their part is labled as piracy even if it is straight up making war and subborning minor clans. They make peace with the Lion and significantly step down their activities. The Lion play ball because they are Rokugani even if they are a long way off.


OK, this raises some interesting question. Did you intentionally get things out of order?
First, what is the war against the Scorpion Clan? Isn't that basically the Clan Wars?
Why does Iuchiban come back in the middle of that, and not after the 2DoT?
Why would the Crab fight everyone? Isn't that basically what they did in the Clan Wars? I love the Crab but I don't see how this would be in any way anything but a curbstomp of my favorite clan unless they abandoned their duties or joined with the SL again, either of which would be stupid beyond belief.

Nearer to the end I definitely go further from cannon because I am using more of my own ideas. Part of what I wanted was a kind of moral decay of Rokugani society. Going from an actual empire eventually into more of a warring states period. Not going to do a proper write up now I guess. But I will outline what I was thinking.


• Scorpion Clan Coup
• War against the Scorpion
• Return of Ichiuban
• Second “Day of Thunder”
• Crab Clan Fights Everyone
• Rise of the Spider Clan

The version of the Scorpion clan coup I had was the Scorpion killing a great deal of the Imperial family as well as the leading Lion nobility. Making everyone really go out for their blood and effectively ending the Imperial house. Everyone goes after the Scorpion and they can't really take the pressure, losing much of the clan most notable the Yogo family lose pretty much everything and flee east into a psuedo shadowlands area (An area which isn't really tainted but is nearish the Shadowlands and nothing from there is really trusted, important later). So in a bid to survive they release Ichiuban hoping to create a bigger threat. This for the most part works, except the Scorpion are still in a terrible position.

The clans fight a war against Ichiuban and eventually a false Day of Thunder happens. It does bind a great evil and it is done with representatives of several of the clans, but it is missing representatives of the Scorpion and the Unicorn. Calling it the Day of Thunder is propoganda by the Phoenix who try to establish a new Imperial house because their representative did much of the binding. But the binding was done using knowledge taken from the Black Scrolls which the Crab representative, a member of the Kuni recognizes as some form of Maho. Leading to the Crab opposing the new Emperor and entering a grueling war against the core clans and Phoenix supporters. They would have lost eventually but one of the Clan Champions dies and is succeeded by a son who recognizes that something is really fishy in the Phoenix leadership so he makes peace with the Crab. Effectively breaking the coalition and leading to no real united empire.

This leads to my idea of Spider Clan. They are not a huge conspiracy. They are not dedicated to the unmaking of Rokugan at their outset. Instead they start as a collection of people driven from the Empire in the psuedoshadowland I mentioned. Comprised of parts of the Scorpion, some Ronin and a few of Ichiubans weaker followers who fled the whole problem.They develop a nasty internal culture which worships Fu Leng but not Ichiuban and builds itself by enslaving peasents fleeing the wars in the Empire. They are not eliminated because the Empire is to fractured for anyone to present a united front and this new clan sees itself as a nation. They are mostly viewed with disgust, but not fear. And over time they begin to gain some acceptance but they are not widely liked.

Lastly Fu Leng. He awoke when the scrolls were opened by the Phoenix but it takes him quite a while to rebuild his power. He does not rule Spider Clan yet but he plans to take over and make war within maybe twenty years of when I would break off. Akodo Toturi is born, but he has as of yet become Emperor or even Champion. But within his lifetime things will change.


Sorry if it is still not very good or in character.

BWR
2016-01-08, 04:05 PM
It looks better with more detail and clarification. Not what I would do but ok (imho). Better than some of the official nonsense the ST came up with.

Faily
2016-01-08, 07:26 PM
I'm curious if the Battle of White Stag still happens in your timeline, considering it was the death of Empress Yugozohime at the hands of the gaijin that set off the extreme fear and prejudice against non-Rokugani (it was already there, but Battle of White Stag turned it up to 11).

Is it still there, or changed? If it's not there, is Rokugan less xenophobic? Is gunpowder legal (since it was not the cause of an Empress' death)?