Necromancy Spell in Real Life!

[Xar Zarath]

If you could cast ONE! Necromancy spell in Real Life, what would that spell be?

I would choose Life Force Exchange from Complete Book of Necromancers (2e). Its like Magic Jar, only doesn't need a gem and is permanent!

*Allowed any spell from any edition of DND
*PF is also allowed
*3rd party books also allowed

*Material/Focus Components not needed. XP cost not needed
*Somatic/Verbal Components necessary! If you cant speak or gesture, you can't cast it.
And no, no Still/Silent spell for you!
*CL 20? Yah, let's say 20
*Remember only ONE spell!

[Vaz]

Clone, or Magic Jar, probably.

[Rakoa]

How often can we cast it? Do we have to pay gold and XP for the spell? At what caster level can we cast it? I need details, man!

[Segev]

The ninth-level version of animate dead which lets you animate entire fields of skeletons and zombies with a higher-than-normal HD cap at once.

The other options would all require more spells than I'm permitted in this thought experiment in order to make work.

[Flickerdart]

Hide life seems like a pretty solid option - you become immune to death or unconsciousness from damage, at the cost of a finger or toe or similar body part.

[With a box]

Death pact from SC?
constitution get lowered by 2 is hurt but it's a contingency true resurrection!
or astral projection but it'd be pointless without personal demiplain.

[Flickerdart]

or astral projection but it'd be pointless without personal demiplain.
Really? "Create a clone of yourself that can travel to other planes of existence and if anything happens to it, you just wake up at home" is pointless?

[DrMotives]

"Disrupt Undead"

"Hey, you're the guy who does that weird little ray of light party trick? How does it work? It's not going to give me cancer, is it?"

[Âmesang]

I'd have to have it cast on me, but kissed by the ages from Dragon Magazine #354, p.54. Stop myself from aging completely. Heighten it to 10th-level so it'll radiate an overwhelming magical aura. :smallamused:

(Cue Queen's "Who Wants to Live Forever?")

[Eldan]

Really? "Create a clone of yourself that can travel to other planes of existence and if anything happens to it, you just wake up at home" is pointless?

Don't forget "Hop into a color pool back to Earth (with some luck)" to explore anywhere freely and with no danger.

The personal demiplane is just so your body doesn't get murdered. In the real world, you could leave it in bed for a dozen hours and be reasonably sure it won't be killed.

[Zanos]

The ninth-level version of animate dead which lets you animate entire fields of skeletons and zombies with a higher-than-normal HD cap at once.

The other options would all require more spells than I'm permitted in this thought experiment in order to make work.
Plague of Undead, if anyone is curious. Also notable in that all created undead have max HP per HD, and has a 100gp material component regardless of how much stuff you animate.

Perhaps less notable in that it doesn't let you make variant undead, like skeleton/zombie dragons or bloodhulks and such.

[Aharon]

Hm... I'd probably go with 2nd Edition, for the healing spells. Otherwise, perhaps kiss of the vampire for gaseous form+charm person, Stasis Clone instead of clone. Steale Life from Book of Vile Darkness ahs the same issue as magic jar - killing others for ones own immortality.
One way I found is Undeath after Death (from Magic of Faerun), which makes you a Crypt Spawn after death.

[Segev]

Plauge of Undead, if anyone is curious. Also notable in that all created undead have max HP per HD, and has a 100gp material component regardless of how much stuff you animate.

Perhaps less notable in that it doesn't let you make variant undead, like skeleton/zombie dragons or bloodhulks and such.

Used in the real world, I won't find most of the required corpses for those. But go to a disaster site or a battlefield and...

Well, I wonder how much I could get for cleaning up a disaster site? Put those corpses to work right away.



Using 2e and earlier "healing is necromancy," grabbing Resurrection or Raise Dead would be pretty smart. How much would the very wealthy pay you for bringing back their dead family members (who died in accidents) or as literal life insurance policies?

[Flickerdart]

Hm... I'd probably go with 2nd Edition, for the healing spells.
Healing spells are not terribly useful, at least ones that deal with HP.

Most people are 1st level commoners, and as NPCs none of us are entitled to a maxed first hit die. So the vast majority of people has precisely 2 hit points. If they are injured for 1 or 2 damage, they can take a day or two of bed rest and recover. If they are injured for more, they begin to bleed out - starting at -1, there is only a ~61% chance of stabilizing by -9. If the injury is more severe - say, a person falls from a height of 20 feet and takes an average of 7 damage - he has 5 chances to save and thus a 59% chance of bleeding out.

Even after they've stabilized, they have a 90% chance of losing 1hp per hour anyway, so the window in which a person with healing spells can help is very slim indeed.

[Segev]

Healing spells are not terribly useful, at least ones that deal with HP.

Most people are 1st level commoners, and as NPCs none of us are entitled to a maxed first hit die. So the vast majority of people has precisely 2 hit points. If they are injured for 1 or 2 damage, they can take a day or two of bed rest and recover. If they are injured for more, they begin to bleed out - starting at -1, there is only a ~61% chance of stabilizing by -9. If the injury is more severe - say, a person falls from a height of 20 feet and takes an average of 7 damage - he has 5 chances to save and thus a 59% chance of bleeding out.

Even after they've stabilized, they have a 90% chance of losing 1hp per hour anyway, so the window in which a person with healing spells can help is very slim indeed.
To be fair, if that's the case, a cure light wounds will heal some pretty traumatic (but not crippling) injuries, and could save people days of bedrest. But you're probably better off with regeneration or raise dead, because it'll let you solve more visible, harder-to-resolve problems.

[Zanos]

Used in the real world, I won't find most of the required corpses for those. But go to a disaster site or a battlefield and...

Well, I wonder how much I could get for cleaning up a disaster site? Put those corpses to work right away.
You could make a decently sized army of stuff that's pretty hard to take down, depending on your caster level. But even if it's 20 you're still limited to 80hd, which is 80 or so unintelligent skeletons. Yeah, 80 mindlessly loyal servants is pretty nice, but still not really a match for most modern armies. You could cause some chaos, but you're not really a world power and people are likely to object to your black magic.

The best use for undead in our world is that they are perpetual motion machines.

[Segev]

You could make a decently sized army of stuff that's pretty hard to take down, depending on your caster level. But even if it's 20 you're still limited to 80hd, which is 80 or so unintelligent skeletons. Yeah, 80 mindlessly loyal servants is pretty nice, but still not really a match for most modern armies. You could cause some chaos, but you're not really a world power and people are likely to object to your black magic.

The best use for undead in our world is that they are perpetual motion machines.

Oh, sure, absent other spells, this isn't really making an army on a world-shaking scale. It's useful, at best, for being a small warlord. Or, as you point out, finding creative uses for tireless workers capable of mindlessly repetitive tasks.

[Arael666]

Call me when the school is illusion :smallwink:

[Blackhawk748]

2e regeneration could be fun, easy way to make stupid amounts of money at least.

[Deophaun]

Junglerazer. I hate mowing my lawn.

[Jormengand]

Most people are 1st level commoners

Most people are 3rd level experts (at least).

What? Okay, for a start, if most people were first-level commoners, we'd be knocked out instantly by a rifle bullet, a knife wound, or even just getting punched in the face. Also, people survive getting shot more than once, uh, pretty routinely.

Oh, and if we were commoners, most of the things that people do on a routine basis (like, uhm, knowing things) would be cross-class. If we were first level, or even if we were like, fifth level commoners or whatever, we wouldn't be able to do as proficiently as we really do. For example, I can answer "Basic questions" (DC 15) on history, nature, or religion (bear in mind I don't have enough feats to skill focus all three until 3rd level) the vast majority of the time, meaning that I need to have a bonus of at least +10 on it. Where is that coming from? 4 from intelligence is the absolute maximum, which leaves 6 skill points. Level 3. Similarly, acid has a craft DC of 15. I can make a standard solution of acid pretty much 100% of the time, which I know because I've done it repeatedly and never screwed up. I can believe that I only have a +13 bonus and therefore can actually fail, I just haven't yet, meaning that I need to have Skill Focus, +4 from intelligence, and - guess what - 6 skill points.

Let's be clear. Level 1 characters are not normal people. They are bloody incompetent. They are unable to do simple tasks that they have devoted the maximum possible time and effort into an astounding amount of the time - a level 1 character with 4 ranks in swim and average strength fails to swim in calm water fully one quarter of the time if somebody's waving about a knife threateningly nearby. If you have a 1 in 4 chance to fail to swim then you are not a good swimmer, but this guy's the best level 1 swimmer of his strength value without blowing a feat on it. Similarly, a level 1 commoner has 2 hit points, meaning that if someone walks up to him and punches him, he's as likely to fall over or be incapacitated as to be able to keep fighting properly. In what world does getting punched once by some random dude who's not even that strong knock you out a third of the time?

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, probably Astral Projection. I could, like, go on a magical adventure.

[Aharon]

Healing spells are not terribly useful, at least ones that deal with HP.

Most people are 1st level commoners, and as NPCs none of us are entitled to a maxed first hit die. So the vast majority of people has precisely 2 hit points. If they are injured for 1 or 2 damage, they can take a day or two of bed rest and recover. If they are injured for more, they begin to bleed out - starting at -1, there is only a ~61% chance of stabilizing by -9. If the injury is more severe - say, a person falls from a height of 20 feet and takes an average of 7 damage - he has 5 chances to save and thus a 59% chance of bleeding out.

Even after they've stabilized, they have a 90% chance of losing 1hp per hour anyway, so the window in which a person with healing spells can help is very slim indeed.

Heal was Necromancy and worked against diseases. So was regeneration => Lost limbs, burn victims, etc.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmm... so what I want is to craft a phylactery. I need a feat for that, but I also need to keep my spell in reserve, and it must be a 6th or up (presumably, that is at least at CL 11). I also need 120k gp, which is 2400 pounds of gold, or $31.000.000 - that's probably slightly outside my budget. So I need a spell that can get me a feat, and cash, and is at least 6th-level, and necromancy. Let's see...

Greater consumptive field? Maximize your strength score on a bag of rats (tell people to stay away, of course), lift heavy stuff in the circus? You just don't have much to do with your shiny high caster level, though, and it's liable to go horribly wrong.
Veil of undeath, clean nuclear installations without protective gear? Not the kind of job you earn $31.000.000 with.
I'd probably go for astral projection for the general utility, plus planar travel is fun. Still doesn't get me the feat, but retraining is a thing.

Or an epic necromancy spell. I'd go for that. It's pretty much cheating though, as far as this thread's concerned.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... so what I want is to craft a phylactery. I need a feat for that, but I also need to keep my spell in reserve, and it must be a 6th or up (presumably, that is at least at CL 11). I also need 120k gp, which is 2400 pounds of gold, or $31.000.000 - that's probably slightly outside my budget. So I need a spell that can get me a feat, and cash, and is at least 6th-level, and necromancy. Let's see...

Greater consumptive field? Maximize your strength score on a bag of rats (tell people to stay away, of course), lift heavy stuff in the circus? You just don't have much to do with your shiny high caster level, though, and it's liable to go horribly wrong.
Veil of undeath, clean nuclear installations without protective gear? Not the kind of job you earn $31.000.000 with.
I'd probably go for astral projection for the general utility, plus planar travel is fun. Still doesn't get me the feat, but retraining is a thing.

Or an epic necromancy spell. I'd go for that. It's pretty much cheating though, as far as this thread's concerned.
...

If you have Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) for free, you hardly need the phylactery. Your real body is left "in a state of suspended animation" while YOU are free to roam. So it goes like this:
1) Find a suitable place to store your body.
2) Cast Astral Projection.
3) Come back to the material plane through a color pool.
4) Live for a couple of decades, letting your temporary body slowly age.
4a) Possibly find a better place to store your real body during this time...
4b) ...and move it there.
5) When you've had enough of old age, pull on your astral cord, and return to your real body.
6) Your real body, having been in a state of suspended animation, hasn't aged.
7) Goto 2.

If you immediately recast when you get back to your body, your real body will age 30 minutes every cycle. If you average, say, 30 years between refreshes, it'll take 17,520 years of real time for your real body to age one year.

Note that Astral Projection is nestable! When you enter a plane, you get a brand new physical body... which is what the spell acts upon. If you double-nest, your original body will age one year in 306,950,400 real-time years (with the same assumption). If you triple-nest, you'll probably outlive most stars (5.377771008×10¹² years of real time per one year of body age). If you nest ten deep, you may very well outlive the Milky Way (2.724840077×1042 years of real-time per year of body age).

Now, the question becomes: What to do with your exceptionally long life?
Well, you want to be a small-town doctor. No, seriously. You go to medical school, get your degree, pay off your loans, and make yourself a nice little nest egg for the next cycle.
Why a doctor? Legal documentation. You are your own child, and your own inheritor. You take a spouse for a decade or two (marriage is necessary to this plan only for males), and a year or two into the marriage, file the appropriate paperwork for having a child (a female doing this can simply have a child out of wedlock) - with the name you want for your next iteration. You file all the appropriate paperwork for home schooling your child. You even order the appropriate supplies for raising yourself - vaccinations, diapers, formula, occasional antibiotics, food, toys... everything in the appropriate amounts... most of which you then anonymously donate to women's shelters or other suitable charities. You also file the appropriate records for physicals and things. You file for appropriate ID for your child - a passport is good. You put the paperwork in a safe somewhere. When you're ready you transfer your nest egg to a password-restricted account (or perhaps withdrawl it as cash and put it with your next set of identity papers, or have had it in such an arrangement the entire time anyway), fake your own death (REALLY easy, as the body is built from real materials, and thus shouldn't vanish when the spell expires)... and use your nest egg to enrol in medical school.

All of your identification is real - it's in the appropriate databases, it's made of the appropriate materials, it came off of the government presses, etcetera. It's proper, verifiable, issued identification - and you have records dating all the way back to your 'birth'.

There's only a small number of wrinkles, and it's really tricky for someone to penetrate your ID from them.
1) If you're male, then anyone who actually stops and asks 'your mother' may find out that she never gave birth to you. This is not a problem if you are female; just don't take a spouse, and live alone well away from people.
2) You probably maintain your fingerprints, retina scans, genetic code, and other biometric information. If someone happens to check your records against a guy who died decades ago, there might be an issue. Very, very few people are going to jump to 'immortal', though, especially as you visibly age and have plenty of friends and acquaintances who can vouch for the fact that you do not, now, look like you did twenty years ago.
3) Nobody from the place 'you grew up' knew you as a child.

These are fairly hard for someone to actually check, and very few will ever try if you do things correctly (don't commit crimes and it's unlikely that your biometrics will be checked against old databases; stay away from Hollywood, don't get a Top Secret military clearance, stay out of politics, and otherwise avoid attention and you probably won't have anyone interviewing your mother or everyone from the town 'you grew up in'). So if you play it safe, you're probably going to be OK.

And, of course, if you do mess up too bad and someone presses you too hard about how your immortality works... oh well. You'll just need to reset early. Blow your brains out on a live news broadcast somewhere. Should do the job. Very, very few will think about the 'self-resurrection' angle.


Edit:
Oh yes, and you can use Astral Projection to get seed money fairly readily:
1) Get all the cash you can manage.
2) Astral project while holding it.
3) Come back to the material, deposit the cash in a bank somewhere.
4) Dismiss Astral Projection.
5) Withdraw your money from a different branch of the bank on the same day.
6) Go to 2, picking a different bank for step 3.
Double your cash each iteration.

Note, however, that if the stuff vanishes when you dismiss Astral Projection, you're going to leave a string of innocent victims - people who were issued the cash you deposited, bankers who ended up on the hook for the money that vanished out of their till and were held accountable for the missing cash, and so on.

Alternate to a bank: Wire money to yourself across town.

[Xar Zarath]

How often can we cast it? Do we have to pay gold and XP for the spell? At what caster level can we cast it? I need details, man!

edited my OP:smallbiggrin:

[Xar Zarath]

...snip...

Not bad although I do prefer Life Force Exchange because body surfing is now a thing! But that makes me a bad person don't it?

Then again live to old age and then body swap with an infant, preferably a rich couple's son. I do wonder about how that person would adjust to such a life, living in a baby's body. But after a few years well, the world becomes your oyster.

Or I could just body surf my way across the world, swapping forms and names like flipping a coin. As easy as breathing although I prefer to have a meaningful simple life. So maybe body swap a few decades after the current body has aged. That way the person I swap with will be in an old person's body and can be regarded as having "problems" etc while I'm in a fresh young form, itching for new experiences!

[Jack_Simth]

Not bad although I do prefer Life Force Exchange because body surfing is now a thing! But that makes me a bad person don't it?Possibly. A lot of people fantasize about bad things, but never go through with them. Are they bad people? If you actually did it, you most certainly would be.

Mind you: While you may have fun, you are unlikely to live more than a few millennia that way. Yes, you've rendered old age moot ... but that's not the only thing that will kill a person. Sooner or later, you'll get hit by a car, shot, caught in an explosion, on the wrong flight, or some other method of death that's either too fast and unexpected for bodyjumping (and/or leaves you without any suitable sacrificial lambs within range, such as on a ship that sinks at sea) and then you'll be dead.

[Aharon]

Possibly. A lot of people fantasize about bad things, but never go through with them. Are they bad people? If you actually did it, you most certainly would be.

Mind you: While you may have fun, you are unlikely to live more than a few millennia that way. Yes, you've rendered old age moot ... but that's not the only thing that will kill a person. Sooner or later, you'll get hit by a car, shot, caught in an explosion, on the wrong flight, or some other method of death that's either too fast and unexpected for bodyjumping (and/or leaves you without any suitable sacrificial lambs within range, such as on a ship that sinks at sea) and then you'll be dead.

@Jack
You don't even have to be immortal alone - you can take up to 7 people with you, so the usual proposed adverse effect of immortality - repeatedly loosing everyone you know - doesn't neccessarily apply.

Also, interesting use of nesting AP - didn't think of that, thanks.

Thridly, immortality is nice, but don't you think after a while you would want to influence the world => become less low-profile? It is very satisfying, but I think after the first fifty or so iterations of happy family wife I would wnat something more...

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you have Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm) for free, you hardly need the phylactery.
Your post is awesome, but that's not the part of lichdom I was looking for, specifically. The lich template comes with +2 to all mental stats, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (bullet immunity), immunity to cold and electricity, and +8 racial listen/spot/others - some utility, there. Good liches also get turn undead, and possibly animate dead, water walk, and the ability to project yourself a mile away. AP does not grant any of that.

[Jack_Simth]

Your post is awesome, but that's not the part of lichdom I was looking for, specifically. The lich template comes with +2 to all mental stats, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (bullet immunity), immunity to cold and electricity, and +8 racial listen/spot/others - some utility, there. Good liches also get turn undead, and possibly animate dead, water walk, and the ability to project yourself a mile away. AP does not grant any of that.
You do realize that lichification, without something to prevent your walking corpse from decaying (which, as you only get the one spell, is kinda hard), kills your social life, right? You'll pretty much be limited to online and over-the-phone interactions.

An alternative to lichdom for you might be the Putrefaction spell from Dragon #300, page 56. Turns the victim into an evil ghost + Zombie, both under your command. Cast it on yourself, use the Pathfinder Ghost (because no Rejuvination check), pick up Malevolence (assuming you've got enough CR; otherwise, you're kinda up a creek without a paddle... but a 9th level save-or-lose is probably worth that much adjustment all by itself), and you're set. Well, other than being corrupted into an evil person, but the standard lichification process does that too, so...


@Jack
You don't even have to be immortal alone - you can take up to 7 people with you, so the usual proposed adverse effect of immortality - repeatedly loosing everyone you know - doesn't neccessarily apply.
At CL 20, you can take ten people with you per casting; it's you + 1/2 CL, and the OP is now saying CL 20. But that's nitpicking. I didn't consider the ability to take other people, although it does suggest a much less potentially evil alternate method of getting seed money: Offer your services to a couple of rich folks. Do your own nesting to a few levels, demonstrate to someone who's got a lot of money and a bit of paranoia that it does, in fact, work, and then follow through on a sale of services. Plus, of course, Mr and/or Ms Rich will want to defend your body as well as their own, so you get extra nesting and someone else with really good reason to want to protect that stage of you - repeatedly.

Also, interesting use of nesting AP - didn't think of that, thanks.

Thridly, immortality is nice, but don't you think after a while you would want to influence the world => become less low-profile? It is very satisfying, but I think after the first fifty or so iterations of happy family wife I would wnat something more...Then you be the man behind the man. As a doctor (and, after a few lifetimes of practice and regularly going back to medical school to be current, a VERY skilled one), you're liable to be able to arrange for a pretty decent salary. Live modestly, and invest heavily. In a few lifetimes, you'll be quite wealthy and well able to purchase your own politicians to use as proxies.

Being a lookalike for a famous person - even one a hundred years dead - carries some things that are going to be particularly awkward if you want to be immortal in a society of people who aren't that has a lot of members who want to be. Plus it's addictive, and you will VERY MUCH want to avoid that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You do realize that lichification, without something to prevent your walking corpse from decaying (which, as you only get the one spell, is kinda hard), kills your social life, right? You'll pretty much be limited to online and over-the-phone interactions.

An alternative to lichdom for you might be the Putrefaction spell from Dragon #300, page 56. Turns the victim into an evil ghost + Zombie, both under your command. Cast it on yourself, use the Pathfinder Ghost (because no Rejuvination check), pick up Malevolence (assuming you've got enough CR; otherwise, you're kinda up a creek without a paddle... but a 9th level save-or-lose is probably worth that much adjustment all by itself), and you're set. Well, other than being corrupted into an evil person, but the standard lichification process does that too, so...
Liches can be good, both according to Libris Mortis and various Faerûn sources. And I don't see why astral projection can't prevent my body from decaying as easily as it can prevent aging :P. If it becomes a problem, I can always start a metal band. Genuine no-vocal chords vocals!

[Jack_Simth]

Liches can be good, both according to Libris Mortis and various Faerûn sources. And I don't see why astral projection can't prevent my body from decaying as easily as it can prevent aging :P. If it becomes a problem, I can always start a metal band. Genuine no-vocal chords vocals!
I am running under the assumption that the resulting astral body ages as normal. So if you set up your first set of chaining at 30, then run for 30 years on the last copy in line, you're physically (and mentally) 60 when you decide to cut it... and then are back in a 30 year old body (but still mentally 60... unclear if you get ageing bonuses again...) to repeat the process. So you'll reset to a non-decayed corpse every so often. The resulting astral corpse would be expected to age as well. You'll still have severe problems interacting with society.

You could use Gentle Repose to meet the requirements - Necromancy, so available for selection, and OP specified a fixed CL of 20. That'd solve your problem OK.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I am running under the assumption that the resulting astral body ages as normal. So if you set up your first set of chaining at 30, then run for 30 years on the last copy in line, you're physically (and mentally) 60 when you decide to cut it... and then are back in a 30 year old body (but still mentally 60... unclear if you get ageing bonuses again...) to repeat the process. So you'll reset to a non-decayed corpse every so often. The resulting astral corpse would be expected to age as well. You'll still have severe problems interacting with society.

You could use Gentle Repose to meet the requirements - Necromancy, so available for selection, and OP specified a fix CL of 20. That'd solve your problem OK.
Hmm... good point. Maybe spellstitching gentle repose is an option (RAW this does not work, as you need to be a wizard or sorcerer, but I'm speculating). You only need a wisdom score of 11, after applying the lich template, so 9 base. You also need to be 'of sufficient level to cast the spells to be imbued' - that's cleric level 3, wizard level 5 or sorcerer level 6. Alternatively, you just need at least CL 3. The Complete Arcane version does not require that you know the actual spells, and it doesn't require arcane spells, either.

OP has specified that we can cast the spell, suggesting we actually have spell slots. We can only cast the one, but we are of a level to cast gentle repose, having CL 20 and 9th-level spell slots ad infinitum. Hmm... let's call that the best-case scenario.

[Esprit15]

Scare, because Wail of the Banshee would be illegal.

[Troacctid]

Looking through the core spells, the most appealing ones are Astral Projection, Clone, and False Life. Since the former two both have what I'd consider to be prohibitively expensive material costs, I'd probably go with False Life. For a low-level human, it represents a pretty substantial HP buffer.

Almost all Necromancy spells are for hurting or scaring people. It's a pretty nasty school of magic, and if I could have access to any of them, it would be my last choice, not close.

[ben-zayb]

I'm quite surprised nobody said Speak with Dead or Reveille (SpC). It's definitely niche, but it definitely is a game changer if you are in the right profession.

[atemu1234]

Greater Bestow Curse.

[Flickerdart]

I'm quite surprised nobody said Speak with Dead or Reveille (SpC). It's definitely niche, but it definitely is a game changer if you are in the right profession.
I don't think many legal jurisdictions accept testimony from crazy voodoo magic, so you'd have to be careful.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Animate Dread Warrior. Is that the one where the undead keeps its personality? I'd go with that, I think.

Or Death Blossoms (Sor/Wiz 2nd lv. -Quintessential Sorcerer PG81). weak spell, but if something infected with it dies, it sprouts healing fruits! I could walk around Africa just blasting people's jiggers AND providing both a meal and healing. Triple win, I guess. Maybe could sell some of the fruits on the side for a bit of cash.

OR:

Curse of Lycanthropy from Complete Divine would let me turn people into were critters. If I can find a predator animal the size of a small dog that can regrow parts I could pseudo heal people. Heck, I'd make a mint transforming furries alone! And military applications. AND it'd force me to gain hit dice, so feats and skills. Yeah.

[SangoProduction]

Most people are 3rd level experts (at least).

What? Okay, for a start, if most people were first-level commoners, we'd be knocked out instantly by a rifle bullet, a knife wound, or even just getting punched in the face. Also, people survive getting shot more than once, uh, pretty routinely.

Oh, and if we were commoners, most of the things that people do on a routine basis (like, uhm, knowing things) would be cross-class. If we were first level, or even if we were like, fifth level commoners or whatever, we wouldn't be able to do as proficiently as we really do. For example, I can answer "Basic questions" (DC 15) on history, nature, or religion (bear in mind I don't have enough feats to skill focus all three until 3rd level) the vast majority of the time, meaning that I need to have a bonus of at least +10 on it. Where is that coming from? 4 from intelligence is the absolute maximum, which leaves 6 skill points. Level 3. Similarly, acid has a craft DC of 15. I can make a standard solution of acid pretty much 100% of the time, which I know because I've done it repeatedly and never screwed up. I can believe that I only have a +13 bonus and therefore can actually fail, I just haven't yet, meaning that I need to have Skill Focus, +4 from intelligence, and - guess what - 6 skill points.

Let's be clear. Level 1 characters are not normal people. They are bloody incompetent. They are unable to do simple tasks that they have devoted the maximum possible time and effort into an astounding amount of the time - a level 1 character with 4 ranks in swim and average strength fails to swim in calm water fully one quarter of the time if somebody's waving about a knife threateningly nearby. If you have a 1 in 4 chance to fail to swim then you are not a good swimmer, but this guy's the best level 1 swimmer of his strength value without blowing a feat on it. Similarly, a level 1 commoner has 2 hit points, meaning that if someone walks up to him and punches him, he's as likely to fall over or be incapacitated as to be able to keep fighting properly. In what world does getting punched once by some random dude who's not even that strong knock you out a third of the time?

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, probably Astral Projection. I could, like, go on a magical adventure.

Actually, most people take 10 on most of their tasks. It's only when pressured that a roll is forced. So you would only need a+5 to always make a DC 15. But that's beside the point. D&D doesn't map on to the real world.

[Malistrae]

Curse of Lycanthropy from Complete Divine would let me turn people into were critters. If I can find a predator animal the size of a small dog that can regrow parts I could pseudo heal people. Heck, I'd make a mint transforming furries alone! And military applications. AND it'd force me to gain hit dice, so feats and skills. Yeah.
What I am not sure about is how the spell functions. The duration says: "Permanent; see text", while the text says it is temporary, it manifests on the next full moon but does not specify any duration. If this means that the effect only manifests on full moon and then it is gone, permanent self-infection still would not be a problem with some unethical preparation (kidnapping someone before the full moon, imprisoning them in an enviroment that allows safe infection).

Astral Projection is nice, but I think the reliance on the color pools is an extreme liability. Even if you do find a pool to the Material Plane, where it will deposit you is another question. If we discount the obvious death scenarios (anywhere outside the Earth), you might still end up in a very awful location (Sahara, Amazonian jungle, Syria, ocean, etc.). And if you take a mobilephone or some other tool to help you out, you might still encounter unforeseenable circumstances.

While spells that grant agelessness (like Steal Life) are tempting, it is ultimately not necessary due to technological advances. The only thing that is missing is the drive. Bioethics is extremely restrictive and conservative. We would be much further on the path of immortality, if not for those dusty Dumbledores.

That's why I see Curse of Lycanthropy as the SOLUTION. If I can cast the spell as many times as I want (though it has verbal, somatic components, it takes only a standard action and a touch), I would be able to spread various lycanthropic diseases extremely quickly. Since it doesn't immediately transform the target, I can do it while remaining low-profile (nobody in his right mind would connect a random mumbling dude who touches people for 2.5 seconds "accidentally" to a sudden outbreak of a mystical disease). And I only need to go on some crowded public transportation, I could potentially curse dozens of people on a single short ride! And the same people will probably spread their curse to their relatives and other people, creating an ever escalating cycle of infection.

This would be my battle-plan: infect myself directly or indirectly (I would probably choose Weretiger or some other suitably majestic beast), learn control, then travel around my country and seed infections in all major cities (meaning at least a few hundred, since our "major cities" usually top out at 140,000 people) plus in any towns and villages I stop in. Do the same for a few European countries but with slightly smaller numbers. It is necessary to infect as many people as possible in the European Union (and definitely not migrants or refugees, as I want natives to be the first to receive my gift of transcendence) before the existence of the curse becomes public knowledge. This is because you can't just throw thousands of native citizens under the rug here. Leaders would have to deal with the situation by addressing the concerns of the ever-growing lycanthropic population (thanks to my tireless efforts to spread various forms of it). Eventually, the disease would start spreading naturally, as more and more people would come to see it not as a curse but as a cool way of being a shapeshifter and so have themselves willingly infected. Of course, they would still have to learn how to control their transformations, but I can see self-help sites and training centres sprouting up rather quickly. At this point, lycanthropy would still be mainly an European thing (although I can see the more liberal parts of the USA adopting it as a trendy thing). However, I am convinced that anyone besides religious fanatics would eventually want to be a werebeast, instead of a boring regular human. Imagine it in a social situation! How many woman would find a man irresistibly sexy if he was a werewolf? The reserve might also be true for stuff like werebunnies (which I would also create for trolling purposes). Given time, lycanthropes will outnumber humans in the developed world (and I am not much interested in undeveloped ones for the reasons written below).

So, why would I do this? Because I would go insane with power? Quite the opposite! Turning the developed world into werebeasts is my means of forcing transhumanity on the part of humanity that matters (from the perspective of doing research, obviously). Werebeasts would crumble the modern, ultra-conservative bioethics arguments. "What use is preserving "humanity", when we are no longer human?" It would be possible to channel this collapse into increasing research into life extension. And werebeasts would be extremely beneficial to this type of research, since if Van Richten is to believed, while werebeasts do cosmetically grow older and die, they don't become weaker in any noticeable way. This means that we only need to find a way to stave off the expiration date, instead of having to do that and also prevent the body from becoming extremely infirm. This partial aging would also likely buy us at least a few extra years (since we would be healthier and less prone to diseases and accidents).

So, you can see that my apparently villainous plot to turn the EU into Werebeast Union is actually a good thing on the long run. My plan would benefit everyone (except the people who die as collateral damage). I would take the humble clay that is humanity and shape it into something divine.

[Segev]

Eh, bioethics aren't nearly as restrictive on transhumanist ambitions as are the technological limits of the same. Unless you are of the belief that we'd be further along if we were willing to kill hundreds of people in terrible, torturous ways in the process. I do not think that's the case.

We may have overly-restrictive laws regarding human testing, but "kept to fully-informed volunteers" would be sufficient to unleash any technological advancement that might be being stifled in that realm. And even then, it's more fear-of-lawsuit than anything else that is the real barrier.

Of course, if you're using necromancy in unethical ways to force a change on people who don't want it for "their own good" or "the good of humanity," you're probably a villainous Knight Templar type of character anyway, so you're best off directly spreading your favorite form of transhumanism.

Though if you have delusions of goodness, I suggest werebearism; infect yourself, gain your LG alignment, and then see how you feel about it! You'll know you're LG, so you'll know what your moral motivations are!

[Malistrae]

Eh, bioethics aren't nearly as restrictive on transhumanist ambitions as are the technological limits of the same. Unless you are of the belief that we'd be further along if we were willing to kill hundreds of people in terrible, torturous ways in the process. I do not think that's the case.

We may have overly-restrictive laws regarding human testing, but "kept to fully-informed volunteers" would be sufficient to unleash any technological advancement that might be being stifled in that realm. And even then, it's more fear-of-lawsuit than anything else that is the real barrier.

Of course, if you're using necromancy in unethical ways to force a change on people who don't want it for "their own good" or "the good of humanity," you're probably a villainous Knight Templar type of character anyway, so you're best off directly spreading your favorite form of transhumanism.

Though if you have delusions of goodness, I suggest werebearism; infect yourself, gain your LG alignment, and then see how you feel about it! You'll know you're LG, so you'll know what your moral motivations are!
I see your points. Increasing the magnitude of volunteer testing would be indeed the best possible situation. However, based on my experiences, it's not just lawsuits, it's the attitude. We have many influential people sitting in important international comittees concerning human genetic manipulation, bioethics, etc. who honestly believe that we are good as it is and death is simply natural and should be accepted. I say they are simply stockholming death. Death, like all parts of the human condition, is something to master, to overcome. The EU, for example, has extensive supranational legislation that concerns itself with hindering biotech (whether it is GMO products, human cloning, genetic engineering, etc.). This current state of affairs is unconsciously perpetuated by a hybrid mix of conservative and enviromentalist politicians and lobbyists who believe in preserving the natural state of things (whether it is the enviroment or the human body).

My plan would be the perfect tool to break up this oppressive group, since their pseudo-philosophy is based on stubbornly holding onto the current, "natural" status quo. Once lycanthropy is widespread enough, this false belief will fall apart, since we will no longer be "humans". In itself, it would not bring forth a great change (besides the obvious), but it would be a symbolic thing that would spearhead the radical transformation of how we think about ourselves. And this train of thought would be beneficial to the cause of transhumanism.

Another side-benefit would be vastly increased diversity, since I would use the spell very creatively. By breaking up the big white heterosexual majority, and turning almost everyone into some form of minority, I could achieve a more tolerant society, since discrimination would make the discriminator as endangered as the victim (since there are no majority groups that one can truly belong to and thus rely on for support). Before you start believing that I am SJW or something, I merely propagate diversity due to my personal beliefs which dictate to me that one can only be judged by merit alone. I don't care if someone is a werebear or a werewolf, a heterosexual or a homosexual, I only care about competence and getting results. And a wide variety of lycanthropes would help instill this attitude in the common citizen.

From a RAW point of view, you are making sense with the Werebear comment, since they get "Str +16, Dex +2, Con +8" in Hybrid or Animal form, which makes them very good compared to the rest of the common lycanthropes. But weretigers are almost as good with "Str +12, Dex +4, Con +6" and they look way more cool, imo (appearances are important, I am a world-threatening villain, I have to look appropriately menacing). If I am going to turn myself into a werebeast, I would definitely not go with some fat bear (oh bears can be definitely scary, but they are not as aristocratic as tigers). And turning LG is just too scary to contemplate. While I believe that I am doing good (although, my reasons are ultimately very selfish), what D&D considers Good (with a capital G) is abominable and evil to me. I was never into Objectivism, but I agree with Rand that Comtian altruism is horrific. I can't even comprehend the notion of living one's life for the sake of another. That's just wrong. Life is meant to be lived for one's own sake.

What is the alignment of Weretigers, btw? The SRD says Neutral, but that sounds boring. Pathfinder seems to have shifted them to NE, which sounds way more fun. And means that I can become a weretiger without seriously shifting my alignment (as most tests tell me that I am either LE or NE, or rarely LN).

Edit: If we are using Tv Tropes references, I would categorise myself as a Knight Templar Social Darwinist with a healthy dose of Ambition is Evil, A God Am I, It's All About Me and a smattering of Amoral Attorney plus The Unfettered.

[Segev]

Re: diversity/tolerance, I think you'd be horrified by how easy it is for that oligarchy of authoritarian oppressors to divide and sub-divide all of the groups such that they ALL were victims of a "majority" or "plurality" or, better still, acceptably-demonized-minority (which in actually holds no power whatsoever)...and use that to divide opposition to their power-centralizing policies while justifying greater power for themselves to "protect" the "minorities" from that demonized-but-powerless group. And when they'd pulverized that one group, they'd pick another group - probably whichever one had benefitted most from their preferential-treatment policies meant to "equalize" things with the first demonized group - as the new "oppressors" to turn everybody against.


Identity politics is the lifesblood of totalitarianism. Preaching recognition and celebration of differences over and above celebration of similarities and brushing off differences where they're unimportant is a prime tool for inculcating bigotry as a useful tool. Combine it with the claim that opposing the socially-sanctioned bigotry is, itself, bigotry, and you muddy the issue to the point where nothing but emotion and selfishness rules the day. A perfect breeding ground for oppression and intolerance wrapped up in self-righteousness.

[Malistrae]

Re: diversity/tolerance, I think you'd be horrified by how easy it is for that oligarchy of authoritarian oppressors to divide and sub-divide all of the groups such that they ALL were victims of a "majority" or "plurality" or, better still, acceptably-demonized-minority (which in actually holds no power whatsoever)...and use that to divide opposition to their power-centralizing policies while justifying greater power for themselves to "protect" the "minorities" from that demonized-but-powerless group. And when they'd pulverized that one group, they'd pick another group - probably whichever one had benefitted most from their preferential-treatment policies meant to "equalize" things with the first demonized group - as the new "oppressors" to turn everybody against.


Identity politics is the lifesblood of totalitarianism. Preaching recognition and celebration of differences over and above celebration of similarities and brushing off differences where they're unimportant is a prime tool for inculcating bigotry as a useful tool. Combine it with the claim that opposing the socially-sanctioned bigotry is, itself, bigotry, and you muddy the issue to the point where nothing but emotion and selfishness rules the day. A perfect breeding ground for oppression and intolerance wrapped up in self-righteousness.
I fail to see how that would be my concern. Diversity and tolerance is a potential side-benefit, not an actual goal of my hypothetical project. My project would always be bringing humanity into transhumanity (whether by choice or force). If it leads to a totalitarian, intolerant society then that is an unfortunate collateral loss in my quest. But you can't break an egg without making an omelette (edit: the reverse).

Indeed, I have always been planning to convert the competent upper class (meaning successful politicians, businessmen, etc.) into weretigers like myself (since they would never be so stupid to preach against themselves). If we take Pathfinder's NE weretiger interpretation (which also states that weretigers are natural egomaniacs who think themselves superior to everyone else), then this would mean that what you described will probably become a reality. Except it will be even more cynical, with no actual self-righteousness on the part of the leadership. In fact, it would be a dream come true for me to have a weretiger oligarchy constantly setting the rest of the inferior lycanthropes against each other to maintain power. This is actually great, because it creates an enviroment of paranoia and ruthless opportunism, which are actually merits in my eyes (growing up in a post-socialist, morally bankrupt country will seriously distort your perspective, apparently).

This just inspired me to upgrade my plan: the cursing wouldn't be random. Upper, middle and lower class would all receive different types of lycantropies from me. Of course, interclass infection is perfectly possible and very likely, but the composition of the first wave of my blessed transhumans will be determined by me. Secondary infections would also follow this pattern, since people usually mingle with their own class. I can actually consider this my own divine judgement. I can "punish" the lazy and slothful by granting them inferior forms of lycanthropy, and rewarding the worthy by empowering them with the most majestic and powerful variations. Social differences will become biological differences. Social Darwinism will finally make sense. Those at the top of the heap will be superior in every possible way to those below them. This is good, because this should be the natural order of things. The Idiot obeys the Genius. The Weak serves the Strong.

Thank you, Segev. This wonderful conversation just keeps giving me fantastic ideas.

[elonin]

Having the ability to have one necromancy spell and no one else can magic and mount defenses other than making saves, i'd have to go with magic jar. I'm not understanding how people are going with becoming a lich, which i'm not sure how it would be done without a phylactery (requires other casting) and a feat.

[Troacctid]

I'm not understanding how people are going with becoming a lich, which i'm not sure how it would be done without a phylactery (requires other casting) and a feat.

Heart of Stone kinda sorta makes you a lich.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Having the ability to have one necromancy spell and no one else can magic and mount defenses other than making saves, i'd have to go with magic jar. I'm not understanding how people are going with becoming a lich, which i'm not sure how it would be done without a phylactery (requires other casting) and a feat.
A phylactery only requires CL 11 and Craft Wondrous Item (which in turn requires CL 3). Since we get CL 20, as per the OP's specifications, we can craft a phylactery by retraining a feat into CWI. The 120.000 gp and massive chunk of XP are hard to get, you'll probably have to start up an ambrosia farm (or go to one of the less savoury prisons in the world and harvest liquid pain, but there are ethical problems with that).

[Telonius]

Greater Bestow Curse. Nothing else really appeals to me.

[atemu1234]

Greater Bestow Curse. Nothing else really appeals to me.

Great (or perhaps twisted) minds think alike.

[Segev]

Thank you, Segev. This wonderful conversation just keeps giving me fantastic ideas.My pleasure. Optimization is both my hobby and my job (I do Computational Intelligence for a living), and one of the key things is to first identify what the REAL end-goal is, and then to make sure that everything you're doing serves that end-goal rather than getting hung up on the details in the middle.

Glad to have helped you crystalize your plans properly.

I will add that the beauty of your plan, since you'll be working out a animal-caste-based stratification of society, is that even if you don't ever out yourself as the "giver of status," by giving yourself the marks of the highest class, you will automatically benefit as a member of it, even if you aren't really in CHARGE of it.


Greater Bestow Curse. Nothing else really appeals to me.

The beauty of this is that both it and its little brother have a clause that says that it can do anything of roughly the same power as the examples given. Which means that you can do things like specify HOW the examples manifest (a penalty to Strength could be a physical shriveling of musculature, for example). It also opens the door to things which are curses-in-name-only (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome). At least from the perspective of the "accursed" one.

Just think of, say, the "cursed springs" from Ranma 1/2. The titular character's curse is annoying to him because he doesn't like what it does, but if he were of a different mindset (which a number of people on this forum hold, I believe), he would only find the inconvenience of its trigger to be annoying.

A bestow curse could very reasonably be, "I curse you to be a (wo)man!" on somebody whose sex was the opposite before. For many, that would be a horrifying curse. For others, a highly inconvenient and/or embarrassing one. But even if you're of a benevolent mindset, imagine the fortune you could make charging people who want to undergo sex-change surgery to actually magically turn them into what they would be as the opposite sex. Full-on change, with all reproductive capabilities.

Imagine how much you could make cursing those who want vasectomies with the inability to have children. Or women who don't want them, too. Or curse those who want kids with fertility (surely, to some, that would count as a curse, so it's within the power of a greater bestow curse to "inflict").

Curse a small, fuzzy, easily-caged-and-transported creature to always be in the rain, and then take him to places that want rain. Curse another to never be rained on again, and bring it to outdoor weddings. Curse a ship with powered travel capabilities to "always be becalmed."

And then there's the actual cursing: your least favorite politicians now have uncontrollable belching whenever on camera; that guy who keeps not letting you over when you need to reach an exit is cursed to have his car break down if he goes over a certain speed; actually curse that bigoted racist to be of the race he most despises; curse that businessman who screwed you with an IRS tax audit wherein he can't find ANY of the paperwork he needs to defend himself; afflict somebody with a Wisdom penalty by giving them migraines that make it hard to exert judgment with more planning than "what will make the pain a little less?"

If you're of a crooked bent, curse every horse in a race to lose, except the one you bet on. Or do similarly in other contests on which you can gamble.

HIGHLY versatile spell, even if you're NOT a bad person.

[Rakoa]

I believe that Greater Bestow Curse is a Transmutation spell, not a Necromancy one.

EDIT: Scratch that, Spell Compendium lists it as Necromancy.

[Deophaun]

A phylactery only requires CL 11 and Craft Wondrous Item (which in turn requires CL 3). Since we get CL 20, as per the OP's specifications, we can craft a phylactery by retraining a feat into CWI. The 120.000 gp and massive chunk of XP are hard to get, you'll probably have to start up an ambrosia farm (or go to one of the less savoury prisons in the world and harvest liquid pain, but there are ethical problems with that).
The main problem is, how are you doing all of that in real life?

And the best place to get ambrosia is Las Vegas. Everyone knows that.

[Troacctid]

You know, I think Segev has me sold. I'm changing my answer to Greater Bestow Curse.

[Rakoa]

My research into Greater Bestow Curse (due to the Transmutation/Necromancy confusion) has revealed some very interesting applications for such a power. I, too, am persuaded and would like to do that.

[Douglas]

It appears that Greater Bestow Curse would be better named "Semi-limited Wish", almost.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The main problem is, how are you doing all of that in real life?

And the best place to get ambrosia is Las Vegas. Everyone knows that.
Research grant for new space travel system. Or something. If I'm getting at-will astral projection at CL 20, 'real life' is already solidly beaten and crying in the corner.

[Segev]

It appears that Greater Bestow Curse would be better named "Semi-limited Wish", almost.

As would its little brother. The trick is that it has a targeting restriction, and it can't actually grant numeric bonuses. It also can be, at MOST, a mixed blessing, giving up something as precious as what's gained.

The "gender swap" curse is giving up your current sex, for example, and comes with no mechanical bonuses. (If your DM is being particularly persnickety and insisting that all curses must have a definite downside, you could get sexist and say that cursing a woman to be a man is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Wisdom, and cursing a man to be a woman is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Strength, or any other similar obnoxious stereotype.) But you certainly cannot do anything that would count as a bonus, like "curse" somebody to be an ogre (giving them a bonus to Str and Con).

[zergling.exe]

As would its little brother. The trick is that it has a targeting restriction, and it can't actually grant numeric bonuses. It also can be, at MOST, a mixed blessing, giving up something as precious as what's gained.

The "gender swap" curse is giving up your current sex, for example, and comes with no mechanical bonuses. (If your DM is being particularly persnickety and insisting that all curses must have a definite downside, you could get sexist and say that cursing a woman to be a man is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Wisdom, and cursing a man to be a woman is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Strength, or any other similar obnoxious stereotype.) But you certainly cannot do anything that would count as a bonus, like "curse" somebody to be an ogre (giving them a bonus to Str and Con).

Looking at both spells, I don't see anything in the descriptions saying that they can't be beneficial. They say no more powerful, but nowhere do they say that they have to be 'harmful' effects.

And haven't you heard the stories of someone cursed with strength they cannot control?

[Segev]

Looking at both spells, I don't see anything in the descriptions saying that they can't be beneficial. They say no more powerful, but nowhere do they say that they have to be 'harmful' effects.With the examples given, I think you're hard-pressed to persuade a DM that a purely, obviously beneficial effect isn't "more powerful" than the detrimental ones. (It's almost always better to buff yourself or an ally than to debuff an enemy.)


And haven't you heard the stories of someone cursed with strength they cannot control?

I have, but that'd be VERY hard to represent mechanically in D&D, especially while obeying the "no more powerful than the examples" clause.

[zergling.exe]

With the examples given, I think you're hard-pressed to persuade a DM that a purely, obviously beneficial effect isn't "more powerful" than the detrimental ones. (It's almost always better to buff yourself or an ally than to debuff an enemy.)

+2 enhancement bonus to strength. Overlaps with other boosts of the same type, and fairly weak on its own.


I have, but that'd be VERY hard to represent mechanically in D&D, especially while obeying the "no more powerful than the examples" clause.

Automatic strength checks to break objects you try to use. Trying to grip a cup? Too tight a grip and smash it. Try to open a door? Pull it off its hinges.

[Blackhawk748]

And now im using Greater Bestow Curse as mine. Its like an oddly worded wish

[Xar Zarath]

As would its little brother. The trick is that it has a targeting restriction, and it can't actually grant numeric bonuses. It also can be, at MOST, a mixed blessing, giving up something as precious as what's gained.

The "gender swap" curse is giving up your current sex, for example, and comes with no mechanical bonuses. (If your DM is being particularly persnickety and insisting that all curses must have a definite downside, you could get sexist and say that cursing a woman to be a man is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Wisdom, and cursing a man to be a woman is how you're giving a -2 penalty to Strength, or any other similar obnoxious stereotype.) But you certainly cannot do anything that would count as a bonus, like "curse" somebody to be an ogre (giving them a bonus to Str and Con).

I admit I'm convinced by your presentation of info for Greater Bestow Curse. However if going by RAW, wouldn't the spell be able to "curse" someone with immortality? Some consider living forever (as opposed to being just unkillable) as a "curse"

[Vaz]

Indeed. In 300, Ephialtes was cursed 'May you live forever'.

[Shalist]

First, this compilation is definitely worth a mention:
Alternate Uses of Bestow Curse
Players Handbook

–6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).

–4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.


Book of Vile Darkness

Target is rendered sterile.

The next person introduced to the target for the first time will hate him or her uncontrollably forever. Even if this curse is removed, the person still hates the victim of the curse, but the victim can improve the person’s attitude normally after the curse is gone.

Each time the target attempts to help a friend or ally, there is a 50% chance the attempt fails and causes the ally to fail at the task.

Target is struck blind and deaf.

Each round in combat, there is a 25% chance that the target will attack the nearest creature rather than choosing an opponent normally.

Every time the victim makes a d20 roll, a roll of 20 counts as a 1.

The victim effectively ages, moving him or her to the beginning of the next age category. See Chapter 6 of the Player’s Handbook for the effects of aging.

At some point within the next week (or whenever it is feasible), thieves are able to steal all monetary wealth the victim has.

Animals refuse to be within 5 feet of the target and do not respond to the target’s commands or requests.

Each time the target meets someone for the first time, there is a 50% chance that the new person will confuse the target with a hated enemy, a well-known criminal, or a raving lunatic.

All creatures of a specific kind (such as orcs, owlbears, or black dragons) are permanently invisible to the sight of the victim (invisibility purge does not help, but see invisibility and true seeing do). The spellcaster chooses the kind of creature.


Dragon Magazine #348

Target takes -8 penalty on all checks made using one skill, such as Climb or Spellcraft.

The target's Str score counts as 10 less (minimum 1) for the purposes of carrrying capacity. This might cause some individuals to suddenly take encumbrance penalties while others collapse under the weight of their own gear.

The target's armor falls into disrepair, halving its hit points and hardness while decreasing the armor bonus it grants by -4 (minimum of 1) and doubling the armor check penalty. This effect shifts to any new armor donned, while the armor removed returns to normal (although any damage it might have taken remains)

The target must carry something designated by the caster or suffer a -5 penalty on all saves. The item can be vague (such as a holy symbol of Vecna) or specific (such as the Helm of King Aramil), but it cannot be something dangerous or deadly for the target to carry (a massive boulder or burning coals). The caster must give the object when casting the spell.

One of the target's limbs ceases to function. A nonfunctional arm cannot hold or wield any item and cannot be used to perform somatic spell components, while a nonfunctional leg prevents the target from walking properly without a crutch (and even then the target can only move at half speed). A nonfunctional wing prevents the target from flying if it uses wings to fly.

The target loses all weapon and armor proficiencies, other than simple weapons, natural weapons, and unarmored strikes. If the target has feats for which the lost proficiencies are prerequisites (such as Weapon Focus), he loses the use of these as well.

The target becomes completely socially inept. He takes -6 penalties on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive Checks, on Cha checks to influence someone, and on Disguise checks when attempting to act as someone else.

The target's armor, shield, or one of his weapons (caster's choice) becomes cursed. Its enhancement bonus is reversed and it loses any other special abilities, so a +4 flaming longsword becomes a -4 longsword. If nonmagical, the weapon, shield, or armor instead becomes a -1 weapon, shield or armor.

The target is stricken with cowardice. Each time the character rolls for initiative, he must immediately make a will save (with the same DC as the curse) or become shaken for the duration of the combat. The first time the character takes damage in the combat, he must save again or become shaken for 1d4 rounds (if already shaken, instead treat as panicked for 1d4 rounds)

The target appears to be a different alignment (caster's choice) for the purpose of divination spells and spell-like abilities such as detect evil.

The target's damage reduction, spell resistance, or elemental resistance of one type is reduced by 5, to a minimum of 0.

The target immediately becomes fatigued until he has consumed 1 pint of blood. THereafter, he gains a thirst for blood and normal food and drink no longer nourish him. He awakens fatigued each morning and must drink 1 pint of blood to stave off this fatigue for the day.

Everyone who knows the target no longer recognizes him, except for the caster. Even the target's allies do not recognize him and those who come to know him again forget knowing him each morning.

The target gains a susceptibility to damage from a certain source (caster's choice). All damage taken from this source is increased by 5 points. The source must be either a specific element, such as fire, or weapons made of a specified uncommon material such as mithral, silver, or bone.

The target loses the ability to heal naturally (although he does not lose innate healing abilities such as fast healing or regeneration). In addition, spells of the conjuration (healing) subschool only heal the target for half as much as normal. Such spells that cause damage are unaffected by this curse. For example, a cure light wounds spell cast upon a undead creature is unaffected, while an inflict light wounds spell cast on the same creature would be halved.

The target's sight is reduced to 20ft, even with natural abilities and spells such as darkvision.

The target must roll a Fort save (DC as curse) each time he commits an evil or illegal act to avoid becoming nauseated for 2d4 rounds. Alternatively, the caster may use this curse to affect those commiting acts of kindness and generosity.

The target loses the use of one of his feats. If this feat is a prerequisite for other feats, the target loses the use of those feats as well.

One of the target's minor racial abilities is disabled. Minor abilities include darkvision, low-light vision, racial save bonuses, racial skill bonuses, racial weapon proficiency or familiarity, or stability. The Dm has the final word as to what other racial abilities qualify as minor.

The target immediately becomes fatigued, and henceforth requires 12 hours of sleep each time he rests or else is fatigued for the remainder of the day.

The target becomes a disease carrier. Anyone the target touches or who touches the target must roll a DC 16 Fort save or else contract blinding sickness or cackle fever. The target is immune to the selected disease.

The target has uncontrollable shakes, imposing a -4 penalty on ranged attacks and 20% spell failure chance for spells with somatic components.

The target becomes unable to tell a lie. He may, however, choose to avoid answering a question in order to avoid telling the truth.

The target fear killing and must attempt to deal nonlethal damage whenever possible, taking a penalty of -4 on attack rolls with most weapons to do so.


Alternate Uses of Bestow Greater Curse

Spell Compendium

One ability score is reduced to 1, or two ability scores take –6 penalties (to a minimum score of 1).

–8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.

Each turn, the subject has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.


Book of Vile Darkness

A random friend or family member of the target contracts a disease. If the disease is magically cured or runs its course (regardless of the outcome), another loved one contracts a new disease.

The target’s most powerful and/or cherished item falls apart, becoming forever useless.

Valuable metals (such as platinum, gold, silver, and copper) turn to lead in the target’s possession, even if they are in a bag of holding or stored away from the target. The target’s touch transmutes valuable metals (including coins) into lead as well.

1d4+1 of the target’s loved ones or allies are affected by a curse chosen from the bestow curse list above.

All of the target’s loved ones and allies suddenly despise him and are considered to have unfriendly attitudes. See NPC Attitudes in Chapter 5 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide for actions former allies might take.

The target cannot cast spells, use spell-like abilities, or activate spell completion or spell trigger items.


Dragon Magazine #348

The target loses a class ability, such as spellcasting, sneak attack damage, or barbarian rage. If this class ability is a prerequiste for other abilites or feats, the target loses the use of those feats as well.

The target gains a susceptibility to one energy type (such as fire or electricity) or to weapons made of a specified rare or unusual material (such as adamantine or silver) of the caster's choice. The target takes an additional +50% extra damage from this source. This effect does not stack with any other weaknesses the target might already possess.

The target's alignment gradually moves toward another of the caster's choice. For example, a lawful good paladin might be cursed to become Chaotic Evil, losing access to all of his paladin spells and abilities. There is no immediate effect, but the target must make a Will save each day thereafter or his alignment shifts one step toward the chosen alignment.

The target takes damage equal to the damage he deals to others. Only damage dealt with weapon is affected, not ability damage or spell effects.

One of the target's attack options is lost (such as a dragon's breath weapon or a medusa's petrifying gaze attack.)

The target can no longer sleep soundly, perhaps wracked by nightmares or guilt over past evil deeds (caster's choice). He wakes fatigued each morning and cannot perform tasks that require him to be well-rested, such as a wizard preparing spells.

The target's most powerful or cherished possession (DM's discretion) is drawn by fate to fall into the hands of a hated enemy or rival.

The target is completely unable to use any three skills of the caster's choosing. Knowledge skills must be chosen separately.

Everyone the target sees appears to be undead, their flesh rotting from their bones and their voices reduced to hollow rasps.

All critical threats made against the target automatically confirm without requiring the attacker to reroll.

A noisy spirit haunts the target. Aside from unnerving those around the target, the spirit prevents him from using the Hide or Move Silently abilities, becoming invisible, disguising himself, or otherwise altering his appearance. A manifestation of the curse, the spirit is not actually undead and cannot be turned, rebuked, or destroyed.

All new creatures and NPC's the target encounters treat him with an initial attitude of hostile. Allies and current acquaintances do not change their attitudes toward the target.



It appears that Greater Bestow Curse would be better named "Semi-limited Wish", almost.Yeah, pretty much. While the RAI are fairly obvious, RAW don't actually preclude beneficial curses, of which many many examples abound.


You can also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above, and the Dungeon Master has the final say on the curse's effect.

Again, while obviously not RAI, that clause allows you to invert any curse that isn't already beneficial; a casual glance through the above lists give some very delightful possibilities ('target loses gains a class ability such as spellcasting'...). Note that, per the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking), neither positive nor negative modifiers are held with any special regard, so it'd be just as easy to curse a 15 constitution person with +14 as -14, or give someone a +8 to all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks, instead of a -8.

[Platymus Pus]

Healing spells are not terribly useful, at least ones that deal with HP.

Most people are 1st level commoners, and as NPCs none of us are entitled to a maxed first hit die. So the vast majority of people has precisely 2 hit points. If they are injured for 1 or 2 damage, they can take a day or two of bed rest and recover. If they are injured for more, they begin to bleed out - starting at -1, there is only a ~61% chance of stabilizing by -9. If the injury is more severe - say, a person falls from a height of 20 feet and takes an average of 7 damage - he has 5 chances to save and thus a 59% chance of bleeding out.

Even after they've stabilized, they have a 90% chance of losing 1hp per hour anyway, so the window in which a person with healing spells can help is very slim indeed.

Don't mind me I'll be sleeping a chopped arm off.

[Vaz]

How is a curse giving someone +14 to a constitution not more powerful than a -14? -14 Con to +14 is a swing of +28 Con.

[Segev]

I admit I'm convinced by your presentation of info for Greater Bestow Curse. However if going by RAW, wouldn't the spell be able to "curse" someone with immortality? Some consider living forever (as opposed to being just unkillable) as a "curse"

Gotta be careful with things like this. It is a curse, and the magic is inherently malign to the target, so "cursing" somebody with immortality is still likely to bring about all the downsides of it, minimizing any chance of mitigating them. There's also the question as to whether that's "more powerful" than the other example effects, which might preclude it altogether.

Though a greater curse's -6 to, say, Str and Con could be fluffed as cursing them back to young childhood (equivalent to 5-8 years of age for a human, perhaps), physically. Which would have the attendant benefit of extending their life. And a "curse" whose effects naturally fade with time (as the newly-made kid grows back up) is definitely less powerful than one that sticks around permanently-until-dispelled.



I do not agree that it is "less powerful" to "curse" somebody with a bonus to a stat equivalent to what the curse can levy as a penalty. Giving your ally +6 to a primary stat is significantly more powerful than cursing an enemy (who you may not interact with nearly as often) with a -6 penalty to a primary stat. The enemy will do things like try to work around it, minimizing the penalty, and even seeking to have the curse lifted. The ally would seek to maximize the benefit of the "curse" and would make no effort to have it lifted. The contrast in actions of the two would lead to the +6 bonus having a significantly greater positive impact on the caster and his allies than the -6 penalty (on an enemy) would have positive impact on the caster and his allies.

In short, if you can't think of why a PC would ever refuse it, it's probably outside the power of this spell. Even if a GIVEN PC would be thrilled, you can, for example, imagine why a hypothetical PC would exist who would not want a sex-changing curse. "I curse you with greater charm and panache!" is something that will never get refused. IT might get "so what?"ed, for somebody who really doesn't care, but no PC is going to seek to get a "curse" that gives them a higher stat lifted. (Barring more downsides...but bestow curse can afflict those without the bonus, so adding the bonus in arguably makes it more powerful.)

That said, "advance to the next age category" doesn't have a clause that says you don't get the mental BONUSES, so...there's precedent for some possible stat-up abuse. "I curse your wizard until he's Venerable!" is a curse...but it is one that a PC might well happily take given that he'll gain far more than he loses in the short term, and might well have a means around the downsides at the kind of power levels a wizard can reach.

[Shalist]

Gotta be careful with things like this. It is a curse, and the magic is inherently malign to the target...Again, perfectly understandable, and absolutely RAI.


Giving your ally +6 to a primary stat is significantly more powerful than cursing an enemy (who you may not interact with nearly as often) with a -6 penalty to a primary stat.
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

However, the notion that "more useful = more powerful" is merely a matter of opinion, rather than actual RAW; negative modifiers are neither more or less 'powerful' than numerically equivalent positive modifiers. The only RAW reason overtly benign 'curses' wouldn't fly at the table is the "DM has the final say on a curse's effect" clause, which arguably doesn't apply to the OP.

---

On a side note, keep in mind that bestow curse requires you to touch the person. OP barring still / silent spell is also somewhat problematic, but...:


Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later.Meaning you can, within reason, cast the spell whenever or wherever you want, and finish it later on with a handshake or something.

For dirty politicians, these might make for interesting speeches. Perhaps include some karmic ("only kicks in if you're being bad") limitation:


Each time the target meets someone for the first time, there is a 50% chance that the new person will confuse the target with a hated enemy, a well-known criminal, or a raving lunatic.
All new creatures and NPC's the target encounters treat him with an initial attitude of hostile. Allies and current acquaintances do not change their attitudes toward the target.
The target is completely unable to use any three skills of the caster's choosing (diplomacy, bluff, sense motive?)


And on a final note, you can likely only increase someone (or somewyrm) by one age category with curses due to "similar affects stacking" rules. To be fair, if a regular curse yields a single category, its perfectly reasonable for a greater curse to take things further.

[Morphic tide]

I would go with the Therathropy(genaric Latin term for all were-beasts, as Lycanthropy is wolf-man). Then get an SLA one as it need not stick to types existing in rule books already. Bow down to the wish maker, they who wield reality as a toy. Failing that, Greater Curse seems lulzy, with the choice of removing every skill someone uses. No heal skill for the doctors, as an example. No knowlage (religion) for Muslims I want dead. Or even remove Knowledge(what the hell your talking about) to make someone an insane fool cursed to never understand what topic they are speaking of, but only as the speak of it. Really, you can make anyone a irredeemable fool with just two castings: reduce Int to 1, lower Wis and Cha by 6. Face the hell of a man who ruins the lives of all who they dislike.