AL rulings you may not know about

[Dalebert]

There's a thread about how you can only summon sprites with Conjure Woodland Beings and that you can only conjure a gargoyle with Conjure Minor Elementals. I figure these may keep coming up so I started a new thread.

I recently made two mistakes. I made a bladesinger and gave him an Elemental Evil spell to start out. Turns out that's a no-no as well. You can't mix Elemental Evil and SCAG. If you use any material from one in your build, you can't use the other. This was fairly easy to remedy. I played him in Boltsmelter's Book and was able to copy the spells I really wanted but I found out in retrospect that he was illegal for a short time. Pretty sure the DM suspected something when I cast Absorb Elements during that game but he didn't say anything and I remained ignorant for a time.

Then I made a warlock, soon to be sorcerer, and took some Elemental Evil spells. Problem is I was a half-elf variant with drow magic and that's from SCAG. I've switched him to drow which I decided I want to do anyway. I was on the fence a while about it and switching to half-elf was feeling too much about tweaking mechanics than about what I really wanted to play. I was worried a little about RP complications with drow being so hated and distrusted but ultimately decided I wanted that RP challenge. It should spice things up.

Am I the only one who was ignorant of this rule until very recently?

[Kryx]

It's a rule that is designed to work with multiple releases like 3.5 or M:TG games (likely where they got the idea).
However in 5e's slow release cycle it doesn't make much sense. Especially since you're choosing between 4 cantrips that were designed for the Archetype or lots of spells from EE.

The rule is bad imo.

[Oramac]

The rule is bad imo.

I agree, but it's still the rule. I got shafted by it briefly too, before I was informed it was a rule.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

One of the reasons I never got into the pathfinder public play was that if you have to heavily modify your own rules to make the game fair for public play... Not only is it annoying to read three them all but it shows that you have a screwed up system (which they didn't show an attempt at fixing).

Looks like 5e is going down that path. Another reason I'm done with AL.

I'm not yet saying AL is a failure but... It's trending in a bad direction. Of course if the DMs were actually lightly running AL that might help. I swear, so much homebrew and rulings that go counter the actual rules (one AL DM said to make a death save an ally has to use the medicine skill in you at a DC 15, if you didn't get a medicine check then you couldn't be healed by HP and each round you failed your con save... What the actual hell...).

[Kryx]

One of the reasons I never got into the pathfinder public play was that if you have to heavily modify your own rules to make the game fair for public play... Not only is it annoying to read three them all but it shows that you have a screwed up system (which they didn't show an attempt at fixing).
Agreed. I have a lot of houserules to balance the system (post many here - Sorcerer, DPR of Classes results, Spell balance, Cantrip balance, etc).

The fact that they have to remove parts of the game to make it work for public play is pretty sad.

[KorvinStarmast]

One of the reasons I never got into the pathfinder public play was that if you have to heavily modify your own rules to make the game fair for public play... Not only is it annoying to read three them all but it shows that you have a screwed up system (which they didn't show an attempt at fixing).

Looks like 5e is going down that path. Another reason I'm done with AL.

I'm not yet saying AL is a failure but... It's trending in a bad direction. Of course if the DMs were actually lightly running AL that might help. I swear, so much homebrew and rulings that go counter the actual rules (one AL DM said to make a death save an ally has to use the medicine skill in you at a DC 15, if you didn't get a medicine check then you couldn't be healed by HP and each round you failed your con save... What the actual hell...).
Huh, I was under the impression that AL was supposed to be "more standardized" as a means of keeping the player characters transportable between AL tables.

Your experience suggests that this objective has not been met.

[MaxWilson]

Huh, I was under the impression that AL was supposed to be "more standardized" as a means of keeping the player characters transportable between AL tables.

Your experience suggests that this objective has not been met.

I think there's some kind of mechanism for reporting DMs who give a bad & nonstandard experience. (Presumably you wouldn't report a DM if he gave a nonstandard experience that you were still happy with.)

[tsotate]

Huh, I was under the impression that AL was supposed to be "more standardized"
The problem is that the "Rulings, not rules" philosophy makes 5e inherently impossible to standardize.

[Oramac]

What I don't get, since it's a "Rulings, not rules" thing, is why they don't just allow both books anyway. There's nothing particularly broken that I've seen between the books, and there's a ton of overlap that would help make a character more believable.

For example: I'm playing a Storm Sorcerer with the Sailor background in AL, so naturally I'm trying to find Lightning/Thunder/Water/Ice spells, since those fit the mystique of being "born of the Storm".

But tons of spells in that category are in EE, so I can't use them. WTF. (I'm lookin at you, Ice Knife)

[KorvinStarmast]

The problem is that the "Rulings, not rules" philosophy makes 5e inherently impossible to standardize.
No, it doesn't, if you take the idea that a number of premade rulings for all tables on certain topics or rule areas or options are available to every DM.

Also, I am not sure what you want out of standardization in an RPG, but I do not demand zero defects, nor a CRPG level of exactitude.

Not sure what you know about standardization in the real world, but I used to be inspected by teams, and was on inspection teams, whose remit was standardization issues in the military. Even with standardization at a high level across a group of units, the best practices and variations were very real and very present. In some cases this \made the difference between one unit being a lot more effective/better than another unit. In others not so much.

Sorry to go off topic, but to me "standardization" has a particular meaning based on past experience.

@ Oramac: I think they do that to simplify things for an AL DM, in terms of reducing the burden on said DM. One thing rules bloat and supplement bloat does for DM's is increase the workload and at least increase again the minimum base knowledge (at one's fingertips) for keeping a game moving.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Huh, I was under the impression that AL was supposed to be "more standardized" as a means of keeping the player characters transportable between AL tables.

Your experience suggests that this objective has not been met.

In theory yes, however in practice, not so much.

The reporting system doesn't do a lot of good when you either have new players who don't know the DM is doing stuff like that OR there's is only a few able/willing to DM.

Plus, America has this "don't be a rat" mentality still which causes problems.

But it isn't even ruling over rules, from what I've seen it is that people get it into their heads that being the DM means being the boss and they can do whatever they like. With no good oversight the system (AL, not D&D) will fall into corruption.

In sure for the most part it ain't so bad but in Pittsburgh, Columbus, Saint Louis, and a few other smaller cities ... I've seen some bad stuff.

Hell, some people were playing M&M but recording 5e experience and stuff... If aren't going to play the game... Siigh...

[Finieous]

As with TCGs, I believe the main reason a company invests in organized play is to bring in new players. The game is more accessible to new players when the legal material is limited to Core + latest release. So this doesn't surprise me, and seems prudent given the objective of AL.

I alluded to this the other day, but what really surprises me is that apparently many veteran, engaged hobbyists use AL as their vehicle of choice to play a weekly game. It seems...really bad for this...so I wonder why so many people seem to use it that way.

[Oramac]

In...Saint Louis...I've seen some bad stuff.

I live in St Louis! Care to elaborate? (I don't DM at all, if it matters)

[MaxWilson]

As with TCGs, I believe the main reason a company invests in organized play is to bring in new players. The game is more accessible to new players when the legal material is limited to Core + latest release. So this doesn't surprise me, and seems prudent given the objective of AL.

I alluded to this the other day, but what really surprises me is that apparently many veteran, engaged hobbyists use AL as their vehicle of choice to play a weekly game. It seems...really bad for this...so I wonder why so many people seem to use it that way.

I don't play AL (I agree with you about it being a poor vehicle), but a small correction: AL isn't limited to latest release, you just can't mix and match material from different sourcebooks. Apparently they're trying to keep combinatoric complexity under control. You can have Mold Earth and Absorb Elements and be an Aarakocra, or you can have Booming Blade and be a Bladesinger, but you can't be an Aarakocra with Booming Blade or a Bladesinger with Absorb Elements.

[Finieous]

AL isn't limited to latest release, you just can't mix and match material from different sourcebooks. Apparently they're trying to keep combinatoric complexity under control.

Thanks for the correction. This doesn't seem especially accessible to new players, so I guess I don't know what they're thinking.

[Foxhound438]

If you use any material from one in your build, you can't use the other.

citation needed?

[thepsyker]

Apparently they're trying to keep combinatoric complexity under control. You can have Mold Earth and Absorb Elements and be an Aarakocra, or you can have Booming Blade and be a Bladesinger, but you can't be an Aarakocra with Booming Blade or a Bladesinger with Absorb Elements.

Which of course causes things like you can be a dragonborn storm sorcerer or an air genesi dragon sorcerer, but not an air genesi storm sorcerer, which is silly. Given the current pace of the release schedule it seems like it will be awhile before content reaches the point where issues couldn't be handled on a case by case basis, like they did in disallowing the flying tieflings variant.

[Oramac]

citation needed?

I'm at work so I can't link it, but it's on the official website.

[Tanarii]

I alluded to this the other day, but what really surprises me is that apparently many veteran, engaged hobbyists use AL as their vehicle of choice to play a weekly game. It seems...really bad for this...so I wonder why so many people seem to use it that way.AL is very freeform. My largest AL 'group' I participate in is one guy who has built up contacts across the second largest US metropolitan region. He organizes and coordinates groups in peoples homes via an email distro group which includes hundreds of people. Almost all are grognards that started play in 1e & 2e. He did this for 4e official play as well.

The key is 'Encounters' is designed to draw in new players. But AL Expeditions and it's 4e predecessor aren't. They include 'official' adventures that are appropriate for long term play by veteran players. In 4e those were designed by non-WotC staff and extensively play-tested. I'm not sure how the Expeditions ones come about though.

The main advantage to AL as a veteran player is you can take your characters to any game anywhere. That is a huge advantage when you live in a metropolis, with game shops all over the place. Plus personally maintained gaming circles like the one I mentioned. Plus oh so many conventions.

[KorvinStarmast]

But it isn't even ruling over rules, from what I've seen it is that people get it into their heads that being the DM means being the boss and they can do whatever they like. With no good oversight the system (AL, not D&D) will fall into corruption.
Hmm, gamers being gamers. :smallyuk:

On a more serious note, the more I ponder on your point here, the more I appreciate the difficulty. WoTC's DnD shop is hardly big enough to run a national network with any sort of control. What happens leads me back to some of AngryDM's comments: how do we grow the next generation of GM's to be good GM's?

If I had a spare night per week that my wife would not kick furniture over me taking outside of the house, I'd consider being an AL DM. But that ain't happenin' any time soon.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

AL is very freeform. My largest AL 'group' I participate in is one guy who has built up contacts across the second largest US metropolitan region. He organizes and coordinates groups in peoples homes via an email distro group which includes hundreds of people. Almost all are grognards that started play in 1e & 2e. He did this for 4e official play as well.

The key is 'Encounters' is designed to draw in new players. But AL Expeditions and it's 4e predecessor aren't. They include 'official' adventures that are appropriate for long term play by veteran players. In 4e those were designed by non-WotC staff and extensively play-tested. I'm not sure how the Expeditions ones come about though.

The main advantage to AL as a veteran player is you can take your characters to any game anywhere. That is a huge advantage when you live in a metropolis, with game shops all over the place. Plus personally maintained gaming circles like the one I mentioned. Plus oh so many conventions.

Eh, after a while of playing with new players over and over and over again (different people each time) I rather bash my head into a wall than see another new player pick up the Paladin or Ranger and try and learn the game with them.

Which is why the argument of fighters to teach new players the rules (that some made) doesn't hold up. New players don't want to play the fighter, they want something cool or awesome that they can use to emulate something else they like (videogame character, movie character, oh and especially Aragon via Ranger... From what I've seen Hunter Ranger may be the most popular new player class ever).

Also, try being a veteran and bringing your character that you know like the back of your hand to a group that can't figure out how to play their characters. You end up helping them learn and then babysitting them in and out of game.

As a veteran gamer you have less freedom because you are expected to help along new players. I'm all for helping people but it just gets down right ridiculous.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the correction. This doesn't seem especially accessible to new players, so I guess I don't know what they're thinking.

I'd be surprised if a new player were mixing and matching material from different sourcebooks in the first place.

[Finieous]

I'd be surprised if a new player were mixing and matching material from different sourcebooks in the first place.

I wouldn't think so, either (I don't really know); but they'll find themselves playing with people who are. I imagine it's less an issue in D&D than in a competitive game like a TCG, but it might still be less off-putting if the new player doesn't find his core character surrounded by PCs optimized from multiple non-core sources. In any case, it doesn't really sound like this rule accomplishes that, exactly. All the non-core sources are still fair game, just not all on the same character. Maybe they're trying to make new and veteran players equally unhappy.

[KorvinStarmast]

. Maybe they're trying to make new and veteran players equally unhappy.
We're not happy until you're not happy.

I think I've seen that somewhere before ...

[Dalebert]

I alluded to this the other day, but what really surprises me is that apparently many veteran, engaged hobbyists use AL as their vehicle of choice to play a weekly game. It seems...really bad for this...so I wonder why so many people seem to use it that way.

I've played in a lot of games intended to be long-term campaigns and every single one of them eventually fails to have enough consistent players and/or DMs and fizzles. AL gets around this. It's a relief despite being far from perfect.


Also, try being a veteran and bringing your character that you know like the back of your hand to a group that can't figure out how to play their characters. You end up helping them learn and then babysitting them in and out of game.

It definitely happens. It's a hazard of AL play. That said, it's definitely not every game. There are enough returning players that I feel like my investment of teaching new players in previous sessions pays off and I have some fellow players whom I and other veterans have managed to train to a level of competency.

It just happened last night, in fact. I was playing with a barbarian, a ranger, and a paladin/cleric, mostly very new. The ranger player struck me as an incredibly dingy high school student who I thought was going to wreck the game and turned out to not be so bad after all. He knew his character and the rules better than the others and didn't do anything whacky as I had expected. Despite these annoyances, I managed to have a good time and many of my games are much better.

Thanks to AL, I'm up to about 4 games a week which seems like almost enough to keep me satisfied.

[busterswd]

I've seen more than a little anti AL sentiment on the playgrounds, which is why I'd venture to ask: what makes having a bad regular DM worse than a bad AL DM? At least with AL, an oversight system exists, even if it doesn't always work; at the very least, you presumably have a bunch of players and DMs in one location, so finding a different table is far easier. If you go to a home game and don't like a DM ruling, you are SOL.

As for newbies, once you hit Tier 2, you're locked into one character path you've presumably been playing for at least a few games, so unfamiliarity should be less of an issue there. Hit level 4 ASAP, burn 20 downtime, and clueless players shouldn't be as much of a problem anymore.

It seems to me like most of the problems I'm reading are complaints about specific DMs or players, and not the AL system as it stands. But when you make a system accessible to anyone, you're going to end up dealing with some bad apples.


That being said, there are some other annoying AL rules/aspects:
-level 4 characters can't play with level 5, and level 5 characters can never play in Tier 1 adventures again, even if they're involved in an ongoing storyline
-the ability to poach magic items; basically, you get punished for taking items that aren't optimal for your build, because if there's something that's really good for you, the player with the least number of items gets dibs, even if he can't use it
-forced XP instead of level milestones: current season is particularly guilty of this. You just don't get enough XP in OotA to level as quickly as the system would like you to, and there's no way around it aside from throwing more encounters in.
-varying quality Expeditions: some are well written and fun. Others throw you on a rickety railroad track that can't end quickly enough.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thanks to AL, I'm up to about 4 games a week which seems like almost enough to keep me satisfied. There aren't enough shades of green to display the depth of my envy for your good fortune.

[Tanarii]

Eh, after a while of playing with new players over and over and over again (different people each time) I rather bash my head into a wall than see another new player pick up the Paladin or Ranger and try and learn the game with them.

Which is why the argument of fighters to teach new players the rules (that some made) doesn't hold up. New players don't want to play the fighter, they want something cool or awesome that they can use to emulate something else they like (videogame character, movie character, oh and especially Aragon via Ranger... From what I've seen Hunter Ranger may be the most popular new player class ever).

Also, try being a veteran and bringing your character that you know like the back of your hand to a group that can't figure out how to play their characters. You end up helping them learn and then babysitting them in and out of game.

As a veteran gamer you have less freedom because you are expected to help along new players. I'm all for helping people but it just gets down right ridiculous.Sorry to hear that's your experience. As I said, I've found various circles of veteran players, some very large, that use AL as their go-to system. Largely because it rotating pick-up groups among themselves. Not everyone can play every session, and AL allows any of them to bring any character they like to the table when they can play, and sit down with mostly other veteran players. And if you can't find a session on a night when you're free, I personally find the ability to play with mixed newer players and veterans is a nice change-up.

Mainly though, the gold is in the convention play! That's where it's always been for D&D, since the very beginning. :)

[coredump]

Apparently they're trying to keep combinatoric complexity under control. You can have Mold Earth and Absorb Elements and be an Aarakocra, or you can have Booming Blade and be a Bladesinger, but you can't be an Aarakocra with Booming Blade or a Bladesinger with Absorb Elements.
You are right in principle, but wrong in example. Aarakockra are one of the (very few) parts of DnD that is not allowed in play.
Substitute Goliath and you have the concept dead on.
It is a simple way to prevent the overpowering potential of combining different parts of different books.


Which of course causes things like you can be a dragonborn storm sorcerer or an air genesi dragon sorcerer, but not an air genesi storm sorcerer, which is silly. Given the current pace of the release schedule it seems like it will be awhile before content reaches the point where issues couldn't be handled on a case by case basis, like they did in disallowing the flying tieflings variant.
Maybe... but they want to be consistent. Fast forward a couple of years so there are 6 seasons and SCAG 2 has come out. To do what you want, they will need a list, "SCAG is okay with EE, but not the guides from Season 4 or Season 6." SCAG 2 is okay with Season 2 and Season 6, but not Season 4" "SCAG can be used with SCAG 2, but then can only use EE" I mean... c'mon.
And that assumes they can identify the power combos right away.
This way is much simpler, it comes down to "PHB + 1 other source" They don't have to worry about over-powered combos, they don't have to worry about trying to *find* those combos.

And more important... by restricting the book combinations, it helps them avoid the need for some lengthy 'ban list' that needs to be updated. As it stands, pretty much the only 'ban' is on flying PCs.


Eh, after a while of playing with new players over and over and over again (different people each time) I rather bash my head into a wall than see another new player pick up the Paladin or Ranger and try and learn the game with them.

Also, try being a veteran and bringing your character that you know like the back of your hand to a group that can't figure out how to play their characters. You end up helping them learn and then babysitting them in and out of game..
First, how do you know your PC like the 'back of your hand' from level 1-3? And if you are higher level, how are you playing with new players?
Second, all of the new players are starting at level 1, right? Kind of limits what they have to learn to play their PC. (Which is exactly *why* they implemented that rule.)



1)It seems to me like most of the problems I'm reading are complaints about specific DMs or players, and not the AL system as it stands. But when you make a system accessible to anyone, you're going to end up dealing with some bad apples.


That being said, there are some other annoying AL rules/aspects:
2)-level 4 characters can't play with level 5, and level 5 characters can never play in Tier 1 adventures again, even if they're involved in an ongoing storyline
3)-the ability to poach magic items; basically, you get punished for taking items that aren't optimal for your build, because if there's something that's really good for you, the player with the least number of items gets dibs, even if he can't use it
4)-forced XP instead of level milestones: current season is particularly guilty of this. You just don't get enough XP in OotA to level as quickly as the system would like you to, and there's no way around it aside from throwing more encounters in.
5)-varying quality Expeditions: some are well written and fun. Others throw you on a rickety railroad track that can't end quickly enough.

1) YES! I see that a lot. "AL sucks because I played with a bad DM" Bad DMs are bad.... that has nothing to do with AL. DM yourself and show folks how it is done.

2) This is not completely true. While the Expeditions are broken into tiers.... the 'storyline' adventures are not. You can easily have a level 4 playing with a level 5 (or 6 or whatever) while playing ooTA or HotDQ etc.
3) While this is sometimes an issue, I find it tends to self correct. Normally if you take an item you can't use, then you are stuck *not* getting the item you want later; so folks tend to learn to leave stuff they can't use. (IME anyway)
4) I am not a fan of milestone XP. But aside from that, I find this a fault of the adventure books and not AL. WotC should have made sure there was enough XP to advance... and there isn't. Not even close. (I think it stems from their desire to level from 1-15.....you just can't fit that much content into a single book.)
5)True.... but true of most things in life.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It definitely happens. It's a hazard of AL play. That said, it's definitely not every game. There are enough returning players that I feel like my investment of teaching new players in previous sessions pays off and I have some fellow players whom I and other veterans have managed to train to a level of competency.

Not every game but way too many.


Sorry to hear that's your experience. As I said, I've found various circles of veteran players, some very large, that use AL as their go-to system. Largely because it rotating pick-up groups among themselves. Not everyone can play every session, and AL allows any of them to bring any character they like to the table when they can play, and sit down with mostly other veteran players. And if you can't find a session on a night when you're free, I personally find the ability to play with mixed newer players and veterans is a nice change-up.

Mainly though, the gold is in the convention play! That's where it's always been for D&D, since the very beginning. :)

I hate cons, way over hyped and not worth it.



First, how do you know your PC like the 'back of your hand' from level 1-3? And if you are higher level, how are you playing with new players?
Second, all of the new players are starting at level 1, right? Kind of limits what they have to learn to play their PC. (Which is exactly *why* they implemented that rule.)

How do you not?

A lot of DMs can't get enough higher level players to join in so I'll make a new character.

The first session is typically level 3, DMs are allowed to award a certain amount of XP at the end of a session. They let players start with that XP because *insert stupid reason*.

Also, one session isn't always enough for some people to learn the game.

Because there isn't any actual oversight bull crap like this happens way too much.

===

I've given AL the old college try, I'm pretty much done with it... Though I've found that it is a great place to recruit people into non-AL games.

[Dalebert]

It seems unbalanced to me that wizards have a glaring loophole. All they have to do is come across EE spells and they can copy them. It seems that if my sorcerer comes across EE spells, he should be able to pick them from that point on as spells known. I solved the problem by picking EE and ignoring SCAG but I feel like I shouldn't have to.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It seems unbalanced to me that wizards have a glaring loophole. All they have to do is come across EE spells and they can copy them. It seems that if my sorcerer comes across EE spells, he should be able to pick them from that point on as spells known. I solved the problem by picking EE and ignoring SCAG but I feel like I shouldn't have to.

I wish the Sorcerer didn't have a spell list and could just pick a different caster's spell list a cha cast from it.

[coredump]

How do you not?

A lot of DMs can't get enough higher level players to join in so I'll make a new character.

The first session is typically level 3, DMs are allowed to award a certain amount of XP at the end of a session. They let players start with that XP because *insert stupid reason*.

Wait...what??!!??

I don't know what you guys think you are playing....but it sure ain't DnDAL.

Every AL character must start at level 1. No exceptions. If there are 'not enough higher level' PCs....then you don't play tier 2. You can't just 'start at level 3', and giving XP before the game is not only not AL, it isn't even DnD. (Even if you did... one session is *not* getting a PC to 3rd level.)


[Note: All PCs must start at level 1, it is possible to then level the character using XP gained via DMing or from Playtest. But even then, all PCs start at level 1]



I've given AL the old college try,.Nope, you have only tried some weird mishmash of rules that your LGS apparently threw together..... does no one there have a copy of the ALPG??

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Wait...what??!!??

I don't know what you guys think you are playing....but it sure ain't DnDAL.

Every AL character must start at level 1. No exceptions. If there are 'not enough higher level' PCs....then you don't play tier 2. You can't just 'start at level 3', and giving XP before the game is not only not AL, it isn't even DnD. (Even if you did... one session is *not* getting a PC to 3rd level.)


[Note: All PCs must start at level 1, it is possible to then level the character using XP gained via DMing or from Playtest. But even then, all PCs start at level 1]


Nope, you have only tried some weird mishmash of rules that your LGS apparently threw together..... does no one there have a copy of the ALPG??

Listen dude, as I've been saying all along.

AL isn't ran correctly because they don't have oversight. This is because of many reasons, one of which that they don't really care as long as people aren't hurting others (and only because it could hurt their brand).

There are loopholes in the system, namely the lack of oversight, but more than that.

I've played in some AL games that went "normal" and they were still cluster screw ups because of one reason or another.

We were level 3 characters and played in a level 7 adventure because the DM was bored with all the lower level stuff. Thankfully the wizard and I (sorcerer) knew what we were doing or else that water weird would have messed up the party and sent us all to an early grave.

As long as they take a hands off approach, AL will remain a mess.

You seem to not understand how the real world works. If there is a speed limit sign that says 55 and you know no cops will pull you over (say because you are friends with them) most people are going to speed a bit (if it's safe to do so). Same principal here, these DMs know they won't get in trouble since they have been reported and nothing negative has happened to them, so they continue to speed and do whatever they want.

So, yes, I tried to give AL the old college try. What I got from it was that you should just cherry pick the good players (even some of the new players) and run a home games.

[busterswd]

2) This is not completely true. While the Expeditions are broken into tiers.... the 'storyline' adventures are not. You can easily have a level 4 playing with a level 5 (or 6 or whatever) while playing ooTA or HotDQ etc.

While I was referring to Expeditions that follow a certain series of events, the strict Tier 1/2/3 restrictions technically apply to Encounters as well. It's backasswards and any DM worth their salt is going to ignore that unless the discrepancy is huge, but the rule exists. Like I said, stupid rule.



Listen dude, as I've been saying all along.

AL isn't ran correctly because they don't have oversight. This is because of many reasons, one of which that they don't really care as long as people aren't hurting others (and only because it could hurt their brand).

There are loopholes in the system, namely the lack of oversight, but more than that.

I've played in some AL games that went "normal" and they were still cluster screw ups because of one reason or another.

We were level 3 characters and played in a level 7 adventure because the DM was bored with all the lower level stuff. Thankfully the wizard and I (sorcerer) knew what we were doing or else that water weird would have messed up the party and sent us all to an early grave.

As long as they take a hands off approach, AL will remain a mess.

You seem to not understand how the real world works. If there is a speed limit sign that says 55 and you know no cops will pull you over (say because you are friends with them) most people are going to speed a bit (if it's safe to do so). Same principal here, these DMs know they won't get in trouble since they have been reported and nothing negative has happened to them, so they continue to speed and do whatever they want.

So, yes, I tried to give AL the old college try. What I got from it was that you should just cherry pick the good players (even some of the new players) and run a home games.

But what you're describing is a crappy DM who's not bothering to follow the rules and players who aren't interested enough to keep showing up consistently; that is no way limited to AL, nor is it the fault of AL rules. Perhaps AL could do a better job of cracking down (seriously, talk with the store organizer if you have complaints; it's their job to keep people happy and events running, and if that fails, move up to local/regional coordinator), but I don't see how this would be better in a home game, where the alternative would be simply to look for another group or not game at all. And let's be honest, if people were drowning in good options for gaming, they wouldn't attend AL events because they'd be redundant at best.

You may have a local community with a lot of undesirables in it, but that doesn't mean the system is broken.

[coredump]

AL isn't ran correctly because they don't have oversight. This is because of many reasons, one of which that they don't really care as long as people aren't hurting others (and only because it could hurt their brand).

And what is the alternative?? Just take your word for it? Or should they hire more people to 'investigate' your complaint? Or should they hire thousands of people to sit in on every game?
And what do you expect them to do about it? You say it is a problem, the DM and other players say there is no problem...so.... do they send the AL SWAT team out to make sure they are playing the right way??

You have people that are not only breaking AL rules, but breaking DnD rules..... there is just no way for AL to control that without hiring hundreds, or thousands, of extra people. This is not a 'loophole' in the system, it is a 'loophole' in the quality of players/DMs you are playing with. Just like with any DnD game, bad input leads to bad output.

Have you talked to them about the correct rules?
Have you volunteered to DM for awhile?
Have you talked to other players about DMing for awhile?
Have you talked with the store coordinator about the issue?
Have you talked with the store owner/manager about the rules not being followed?
They....unlike AL....have the power or ability to actually make improvements.



We were level 3 characters and played in a level 7 adventure because the DM was bored with all the lower level stuff. Thankfully the wizard and I (sorcerer) knew what we were doing or else that water weird would have messed up the party and sent us all to an early grave.
Which adventure? There is no lvl 7 adventure I can think of that level 3 PCs have a chance of surviving....regardless if you 'know what you are doing'.
Did you mention you are not legally allowed to play that expedition?
Did you ask him why he isn't following the AL rules?
Did you explain to the other players that their PCs will no longer be AL-legal?
Did you, or anyone, volunteer to DM for awhile so the DM could take a break?


As long as they take a hands off approach, AL will remain a mess.
No, AL at that store will remain a mess, it is doing just fine where I am, and where I was, and at the other stores I have visited.
Besides, what do you expect to possibly happen? How do you expect them to force someone to follow the rules? How do you keep the DM from just lying about it?



While I was referring to Expeditions that follow a certain series of events, the strict Tier 1/2/3 restrictions technically apply to Encounters as well. It's backasswards and any DM worth their salt is going to ignore that unless the discrepancy is huge, but the rule exists. Like I said, stupid rule.
You mean the rule that you just made up? The one that doesn't actually exist in AL play? Yeah, that would be a stupid rule.....luckily there is no such rule in AL.
So tell me, what 'tier' is chapter 4 (or 5) of OotA? Where does it list which chapter is which tier?
What about Chapter 2? the one that you return to throughout the adventure?
Like I tried to tell you, you are mistaken. That is not an AL rule, anyone telling you it is is also mistaken.

As for Expeditions..... they have a mechanism for that.....your level 4 PC can 'catch up' to the lvl 5 PC using Downtime Days. Now you don't have to be separated.

[thepsyker]

Maybe... but they want to be consistent. Fast forward a couple of years so there are 6 seasons and SCAG 2 has come out. To do what you want, they will need a list, "SCAG is okay with EE, but not the guides from Season 4 or Season 6." SCAG 2 is okay with Season 2 and Season 6, but not Season 4" "SCAG can be used with SCAG 2, but then can only use EE" I mean... c'mon.
And that assumes they can identify the power combos right away.
This way is much simpler, it comes down to "PHB + 1 other source" They don't have to worry about over-powered combos, they don't have to worry about trying to *find* those combos.

And more important... by restricting the book combinations, it helps them avoid the need for some lengthy 'ban list' that needs to be updated. As it stands, pretty much the only 'ban' is on flying PCs.


Meh, if the "simple" approach today causes actual problems today by banning thematic options such as Air Genesi Storm Sorcerers in the hopes of avoiding possible problems with hypothetical future power combos then perhaps the "simple" approach isn't the best approach. In that event something in their approach needs to be given a look over.

Edit: I guess I don't see the problem with a ban list either. If they are doing their jobs right and producing quality balanced material in the first place most issues should be edge cases of unintended synergy. If they provide some system to allow feedback from AL GM's on any problems that prop up they can address them at that time either by offering GM advice on managing the problem, offering errata, or if no other solution is possible banning the combo. This would have the added benefit of serving as a source for advice/suggestions for non-AL GMs facing the same problem combos.

[busterswd]

You mean the rule that you just made up? The one that doesn't actually exist in AL play? Yeah, that would be a stupid rule.....luckily there is no such rule in AL.
So tell me, what 'tier' is chapter 4 (or 5) of OotA? Where does it list which chapter is which tier?
What about Chapter 2? the one that you return to throughout the adventure?
Like I tried to tell you, you are mistaken. That is not an AL rule, anyone telling you it is is also mistaken.

As for Expeditions..... they have a mechanism for that.....your level 4 PC can 'catch up' to the lvl 5 PC using Downtime Days. Now you don't have to be separated.

http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ) (http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ))


Will we be able to play our existing tier two or three characters in the upcoming storyline season of D&D Encounters and if not, can we jump in to where Tier 2 (level 5+) begins and start play from there?

D&D Encounters is a weekly Wednesday play program, geared for a casual play audience with short sessions each week. It is always for characters levels one through four. As such, higher level characters are not eligible to play in the D&D Encounters (level 1-4) games.

That being said, you can pick up the Princes of the Apocalypse hardcover adventure and play the higher level content with appropriate level characters as a casual D&D Adventurers League game, or wait until an Encounters table transitions into casual play at higher tiers and join it then.

The above is an FAQ with official AL rulings.

http://dndadventurersleague.org/get-involved/in-store-or-store-affiliated-play-options/integrating-players-as-the-dd-adventurers-league-transitions-into-higher-tier-play/

There's even a column dealing with this exact problem and the difficulties it presents.

Also, not sure why you're being so hostile? This is a thread that's literally about obscure AL rules, there's always the possibility that there's one you haven't heard about.

[Tanarii]

If they are doing their jobs right and producing quality balanced material in the first place most issues should be edge cases of unintended synergy. SCAG's Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade already prove that won't be happening. They're broken in combination with PHB material (EKs, ATs, Bards, and Multiclass). Let alone in combination with other splat.

[coredump]

http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ) (http://dndadventurersleague.org/sage/index.php?title=Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ))



The above is an FAQ with official AL rulings.

http://dndadventurersleague.org/get-involved/in-store-or-store-affiliated-play-options/integrating-players-as-the-dd-adventurers-league-transitions-into-higher-tier-play/

There's even a column dealing with this exact problem and the difficulties it presents.

Also, not sure why you're being so hostile? This is a thread that's literally about obscure AL rules, there's always the possibility that there's one you haven't heard about.
I am not trying to be hostile, I started by just explaining the rules of what is an isn't allowed. You then continued to call your erroneous rule 'stupid' and an annoying part of AL. But, as I have tried to explain a few times now, you are conflating different situations.

Yes, the expeditions have strict tiers. Which is *why* they allow you to 'catch up' so that your 4th level PC can still play with your 5th level friend.
This does apply to the beginning .pdf for each season. But its hard enough to get to 4th level with those, virtually impossible to get to 5th, so it really isn't a problem there.

This rule does *not* apply when you use the hardcover adventure for a 'continuing storyline'. While playing OotA, it is quite possible, and completely legal, to have a 4th level PC playing in the same party as a 5th level PC. (Or 3rd, or 6th, etc.) It is recommended that you keep folks within 2 levels of the average.... but it *is* legal.

Your links do not apply
1) That is dealing with the beginning .pdf which used to be called 'encounters', but does not apply to the hardcover.
2) That applies to playing at various tiers, which do not exist in the hardcover adventures.

[coredump]

SCAG's Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade already prove that won't be happening. They're broken in combination with PHB material (EKs, ATs, Bards, and Multiclass). Let alone in combination with other splat.
Really? How do you find them broken? I don't even think they are that good of a choice.....

[SpawnOfMorbo]

While I was referring to Expeditions that follow a certain series of events, the strict Tier 1/2/3 restrictions technically apply to Encounters as well. It's backasswards and any DM worth their salt is going to ignore that unless the discrepancy is huge, but the rule exists. Like I said, stupid rule.




But what you're describing is a crappy DM who's not bothering to follow the rules and players who aren't interested enough to keep showing up consistently; that is no way limited to AL, nor is it the fault of AL rules. Perhaps AL could do a better job of cracking down (seriously, talk with the store organizer if you have complaints; it's their job to keep people happy and events running, and if that fails, move up to local/regional coordinator), but I don't see how this would be better in a home game, where the alternative would be simply to look for another group or not game at all. And let's be honest, if people were drowning in good options for gaming, they wouldn't attend AL events because they'd be redundant at best.

You may have a local community with a lot of undesirables in it, but that doesn't mean the system is broken.

It isn't just one dude, it has been multiple dudes over multiple cities. I travel for work sometimes and I get a chance to play in a bunch of different US cities. This isn't just an issue or problem in one place.

Side Note

I'm not sure why coredump is being so hostile, did I insult his/her parents or something?

[Tanarii]

Really? How do you find them broken? I don't even think they are that good of a choice.....
Because for they are the same as 2 attacks at level 5+ and superior at 11+. Unless you're using GWM and/or PaM, in which case you were already broken anyway.

The main people that want to use something else instead are people that don't make really make melee attacks in the first place ... Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers. But for everyone else they're a superior option for melee attack. Especially Rogues, Clerics and Bards. But even for EKs, Paladins and Rangers it can beat out Extra Attack quite easily.

They're straight-forward power creep in combination with other classes. That's why they became hugely and immediately popular with the optimization crowd.

[MaxWilson]

Really? How do you find them broken? I don't even think they are that good of a choice.....

For Arcane Tricksters (in melee) specifically, Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade wind up giving them double the at-will damage output of any other kind of rogue. Compare the Thief's 44.5 points of damage on a hit to the Arcane Trickster's 76.

Personally though I think Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade are fine--melee needs all the help it can get in 5E since ranged combat is very nearly a dominant strategy. The absence of BB/GFB for Thieves and Assassins does mean they have no real reason not to stick to ranged combatant, but you know, I'm fine with "crossbow Assassins" as an archtype. After all, Lee Harvey Oswald used a ranged weapon for his most famous assassination.


They're straight-forward power creep in combination with other classes. That's why they became hugely and immediately popular with the optimization crowd.

Objectively true but not necessarily problematic. I think the PHB didn't do enough to make melee attractive; something like GFB or Thunderwave should have been part of the PHB from the get-go.

[bid]

Really? How do you find them broken? I don't even think they are that good of a choice.....
A level 20 AT rogue will do 1d6+5 and 1d6 and 10d6 using twf.
The same will do 1d6+5 + 3d8 and 10d6 using GFB.

You risk losing 35 damage for an extra 8 damage.

Quick excel shows that single-target GFB does +12% damage on auto-hit and the same damage on 6+ hit. With 2 targets, it's +38% damage and 11+ hit to match.

It looks about the same at level 11 but is much weaker at level 10 (2-target level 10 is roughly equal to 1-target level 11).

[busterswd]

I am not trying to be hostile, I started by just explaining the rules of what is an isn't allowed. You then continued to call your erroneous rule 'stupid' and an annoying part of AL. But, as I have tried to explain a few times now, you are conflating different situations.

Yes, the expeditions have strict tiers. Which is *why* they allow you to 'catch up' so that your 4th level PC can still play with your 5th level friend.
This does apply to the beginning .pdf for each season. But its hard enough to get to 4th level with those, virtually impossible to get to 5th, so it really isn't a problem there.

This rule does *not* apply when you use the hardcover adventure for a 'continuing storyline'. While playing OotA, it is quite possible, and completely legal, to have a 4th level PC playing in the same party as a 5th level PC. (Or 3rd, or 6th, etc.) It is recommended that you keep folks within 2 levels of the average.... but it *is* legal.

Your links do not apply
1) That is dealing with the beginning .pdf which used to be called 'encounters', but does not apply to the hardcover.
2) That applies to playing at various tiers, which do not exist in the hardcover adventures.

Bah. There's actually something in the FAQ that explicitly corroborates what you're saying, so you're right on that. My mistake!


It isn't just one dude, it has been multiple dudes over multiple cities. I travel for work sometimes and I get a chance to play in a bunch of different US cities. This isn't just an issue or problem in one place.

It may not just be one person, but my point is that there are bad DnD players/DMs all over the place. AL doesn't necessarily weed them out, but at the same time, it's not the cause of the problem. And AL gives you some recourse, whether it's literally just walking to another table next session, or trying to talk to someone in charge. Privates games don't. So telling people they should avoid Adventurer's League is doing them, and AL, a disservice. I've had some good gaming at AL events (a couple of bad sessions too, but it happens).

[thepsyker]

SCAG's Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade already prove that won't be happening. They're broken in combination with PHB material (EKs, ATs, Bards, and Multiclass). Let alone in combination with other splat.

Honestly, that seems to be pretty much exactly what I'm talking about when I said corner case. Two cantrips for wizards, sorcerers and warlocks that have a bit to good of an interaction with AT's Sneak Attack and Bards Magic Secret (I don't see the melee cantrips interaction with EK as a bad thing and Multiclass is a whole other issue in general) and as you say it is something that core+ 1 does nothing to address so any attempt to deal with it will be a case focused one.

[Vogonjeltz]

The problem is that the "Rulings, not rules" philosophy makes 5e inherently impossible to standardize.

The problem SpawnofMorbo specifically mentioned was a DM making up new rules, not making a ruling.

If they refrain from creating house rules, then it's actually quite easy to run the game in a standardized way.

[unwise]

I find the idea of DMing for AL really off-putting. As a DM I am pretty firmly in the camp of those that will sacrifice rules to improve a game. The idea that I would be held somehow accountable for giving a Hobgoblin Chief whatever damn AC I choose, or having to have boring and anti-climactic fights all the time is just anathema to me. The threads demonizing AL DMs (not really this one) just compound this for me.

I actually want to start DMing at my local store, but I just don't think that I could run a game so strictly sticking to every rule. Not to mention having every ruling put under a microscope.

The last guy to run games there quit when people complained loudly that they cast Command "Stop!" on a running (super smart) horse and it kept moving due to momentum, despite its best efforts to stop at a screeching halt. Another was Hold Person I think, the guy was riding down a mine cart at 50kph, had the spell cast on him and the DM ruled that he stopped moving his limbs, but kept moving forward. The alternative, in the DMs mind, would be him becoming a red paste due to 50 - 0 instant deceleration. I didn't have a horse in the race, but it certainly is a very different feel to a game when PCs theoretically have recourse to a higher power than the DM on these sort of things.

Are there rules around world-building in AL? Can you say that the local wizards guild does not teach necromancy? Can you say that the local lord is racist against Gnomes? It seems that every world building decision or fleshing out could affect some aspect of a person's character. Do you have to stick to adventure paths and not flesh out characters not mentioned in them? I am just curious as my PCs tend to take things very off the rails, half of the encounters in an adventure path are likely to be skipped or replaced. My PCs once managed to get themselves in a bloody and protracted war with a local mafia boss, despite that quest having absolutely nothing to do with organised crime at all.

I asked around about running a game, started making inquiries, I requested that the players not bring a Darkness+DevilSight Warlock with the intent of casting it all the time. A previous game had that and it just got very old very quickly. I also asked that one or more people have the Noble or Artisan background due to a plot hook I wanted to use. I was told that I could not request players to bring anything in particular in an AL game. It was not a requirement, just a polite request, I would let anybody play, but that made the AL advocates uncomfortable enough that they would not put that on the sign up sheets.

I can certainly see AL being a preferred way to play for those with a competitive edge to their gaming, or those with a view towards "fair" game play. My group and I just never think of RPGs in terms of "fair" though. Its not that that is better or worse, probably just a product of being brought up on different game systems.

[coredump]

Let me see if I can address some of your questions and concerns. To start, I am not trying to convince you to play/DM AL.... it has good and bad points, and so does not fit everyone's tastes...


I find the idea of DMing for AL really off-putting. As a DM I am pretty firmly in the camp of those that will sacrifice rules to improve a game. The idea that I would be held somehow accountable for giving a Hobgoblin Chief whatever damn AC I choose, or having to have boring and anti-climactic fights all the time is just anathema to me.
These should not concern you, you are not being forced to have boring fights, and you are allowed to modify encounters to make the game more (or less) challenging so everyone has fun.
The DM actually has a lot of leeway to modify adventures, as long as you keep thing reasonable, and keep the over-arching story intact.



I actually want to start DMing at my local store, but I just don't think that I could run a game so strictly sticking to every rule. Not to mention having every ruling put under a microscope. You are expected to keep up the *explicit* rules. No making a longsword do 1D12+8 damage.... but there is a *lot* of room for rulings and interpretations. And the AL Admins have been *very* consistent and upfront about all of that being the purview of the individual DM. (Some of the RCs or LCs are a different matter...but they have *zero* authority to set policy for the AL)


The last guy to run games there quit when people complained loudly that they cast Command "Stop!" on a running (super smart) horse and it kept moving due to momentum, despite its best efforts to stop at a screeching halt. Another was Hold Person I think, the guy was riding down a mine cart at 50kph, had the spell cast on him and the DM ruled that he stopped moving his limbs, but kept moving forward. ... when PCs theoretically have recourse to a higher power than the DM on these sort of things.
There are good and bad DMs, and good and bad players... it happens.
More specifically: Without any more info, I kind of agree with the players on the first one.... DnD doesn't really deal with momentum, it deals in turns of movement. You can turn on a dime with no loss of speed, or stop and go back, or whatever. As a player I might (or not) talked to the DM about this, but that would be true in a home campaign as much as an AL campaign.
The mine cart thing seems like a no brainer..... it just paralizes you, it doesn't stop a mine cart from moving.
There is no AL recourse really... they can appeal to the DM to follow the rules more closely, or to the store manager, but AL isn't in the position to try and micromanage every DM in every LGS in the world. (Nor do they want to be)


Are there rules around world-building in AL? Can you say that the local wizards guild does not teach necromancy? Can you say that the local lord is racist against Gnomes? It seems that every world building decision or fleshing out could affect some aspect of a person's character. Do you have to stick to adventure paths and not flesh out characters not mentioned in them? I am just curious as my PCs tend to take things very off the rails, half of the encounters in an adventure path are likely to be skipped or replaced. My PCs once managed to get themselves in a bloody and protracted war with a local mafia boss, despite that quest having absolutely nothing to do with organised crime at all.
This is where the trade-offs really appear. You are DMing in a shared world.... so you can't just change it. You decide the sheriff doesn't like Goliaths... cool. You decide all gnomes are vampires and must drink blood every day...not cool. You also are pretty limited in changing the plot of the adventure. Just because one of the contacts is in organized crime, doesn't mean you can ignore the adventure plot because the PCs want to get hired by the mafia Don.

If you want total control of the world, the plots, what can and can't happen.... then AL may not be for you. If you can abide by letting others be responsible for the overall story arch, and the leave you the details of fleshing out the adventures (within reason), then it could be a good match.


I asked around about running a game, started making inquiries, I requested that the players not bring a Darkness+DevilSight Warlock with the intent of casting it all the time. A previous game had that and it just got very old very quickly. I also asked that one or more people have the Noble or Artisan background due to a plot hook I wanted to use. I was told that I could not request players to bring anything in particular in an AL game. It was not a requirement, just a polite request, I would let anybody play, but that made the AL advocates uncomfortable enough that they would not put that on the sign up sheets.
A 'request' from a DM is pretty strong stuff.... 'requesting' no warlocks with those abilities is a bit too much. But you could let them know ahead of time how you adjudicate those situations. I, for example, do *not* believe PCs have some innate ability to know where people are in darkness (hearing is just not that accurate), so darkness really screws with the other PCs most of the time.
OTOH, saying you have a neat plot hook for a noble, is just way cool. You can bet my PC would have been a noble. Sorry it got nixed by the folks there. But there is nothing about AL that would prevent you from doing that. (Unless the plot hook itself broke some rule...)



I can certainly see AL being a preferred way to play for those with a competitive edge to their gaming, or those with a view towards "fair" game play. My group and I just never think of RPGs in terms of "fair" though. Its not that that is better or worse, probably just a product of being brought up on different game systems.Woah.... what??
There is just nothing 'competitive' about AL..... the guidelines make an attempt for some level of 'fair' in magic distribution....but thats really about it. Its just a DnD game.... there is plenty of table variation. There are some restrictions because it is a 'shared' world that needs to accommodate folks leaving, joining, and coming in from other places.... so there needs to be some consistency restrictions. But that really does leave a lot of room.



Finally.... If you are willing to commit, you might enjoy running the Hardback adventures instead of the one shot expeditions. You will often get a much more consistent group of players, and it gives you a lot more flexibility as far as modifying/controlling the adventure and pacing.

[pibby]

Despite some of the "rules" AL has set out I'm fairly certain a lot of people are ignoring the whole bit on conjuration spells. That along with non-random loot for OotA. Even with the current errata for the DMG every DM I play with lets me keep out a giant elk from my gray bag of tricks for more than a day since even before the errata I don't deliberately try and abuse the magic item.

What I think would make AL awesome is to introduce another format that lets people play with all the released material (even though WotC doesn't balance their new material with the ones that preceded it aside from core). New players get deterred by veterans who are braggarts anyways and veterans like myself cared less for wizards from 3.5 who had spells from 10 different sources.

As someone who's part of AL in Orlando the table split wouldn't be any different. New players play LMoP at one table and the veterans who've made friends with one another take up an entire table themselves. If someone really wanted to play in both formats WotC should then allow a character that uses only core plus one other source to be able to do so.

Maybe WotC did some research and learned that having more than one format isolates one part of the community from the other. But how can that be when MtG exists with 4(?) formats! Pretty much everyone I know who plays standard also eventually plays modern and/or commander.

[druid91]

I enjoyed the one game of AL I tried. But then, I didn't use polymorph or summoning spells. I lasered things with Eldritch blast and talked my way out of problems.

[eastmabl]

Then I made a warlock, soon to be sorcerer, and took some Elemental Evil spells. Problem is I was a half-elf variant with drow magic and that's from SCAG. I've switched him to drow which I decided I want to do anyway. I was on the fence a while about it and switching to half-elf was feeling too much about tweaking mechanics than about what I really wanted to play. I was worried a little about RP complications with drow being so hated and distrusted but ultimately decided I wanted that RP challenge. It should spice things up.

Am I the only one who was ignorant of this rule until very recently?

It was #2 of the questions about introducing SCAG into Adventurers' League. I don't really play DDAL (no FLGS, not a big fan of the Realms), but I was aware of the rule.

http://dndadventurersleague.org/the-sword-coast-adventurers-guide-and-you/#more-3926

Based upon the reference to their desire to include SCAG as an evergreen option, I would presume that there will come a point (next season?) where you can use both EEPC and SCAG in building characters. Given that they're talking about an substantive additional source being added mid-season, this rule might be limited to these circumstances.

[Dalebert]

You're at an AL event, you're supposed to stay within certain boundaries because it's organized play that's specifically designed to accommodate people on the fly and people coming and going from game to game. That said, it's a great way to meet gamers. I know plenty of people who play AL regularly but also play home games and they met some of the people for those home games at AL play.

There are plenty of rules that we all tend to consistently dislike but accept them for the sake of organized play. I'm sure those things get hashed out in home games.

As far as getting away with changing things, you can pretty much get away with anything until it upsets a player, and that's often a lot. If you change something to no longer fit the RAW or the AL guidelines and it screws up a player's build or worse, gets him killed, then you can potentially face repercussions. If it's bad enough, you can potentially be banned as a judge or banned from playing AL altogether. I've never heard of it happening but it is theoretically possible. I find most of the time it's just a matter of chatting with the DM and maybe getting a local organizer involved to mediate in some bigger cases.

We have a fairly active bunch of games in Southern NH and we've been fairly low drama. I imagine things very a lot from location to location just based on luck of the draw there and the particular people who happen to get involved.

[Oramac]

That said, it's a great way to meet gamers. I know plenty of people who play AL regularly but also play home games and they met some of the people for those home games at AL play.

Good point. I'm actually starting a home game tonight with a few people I met at AL.

[Weremarshall]

I agree with a lot of the things being said on both sides of this discussion. I really enjoy AL as a player and it is a great introduction for people new to the system. The problem that I have experienced with the system is the lack of oversight mentioned before. I agree that this comes down to problematic players and DMs, and I am not suggesting that WotC become more involved, but I will not be DMing AL any more.

I think that the nature of the system takes agency away from the DM and can foster antagonism between the players and the DM. Rule zero is no longer in effect as the DM-player agreement is undermined by the shared world. This explains some of those threads about bad DMs, as the complaint is that they are not delivering the rules as written. In a home game, this is a moot complaint, but in AL it takes on the valence of an infraction. So, we have a system whereby a rules lawyer is given a bit more ammo to work against the DM and the classic "make a ruling or roll a die, then figure it out later" is less acceptable. On the DM side of things, we have less power to curb problem players and involve non-optimized builds. I have had players cheating and being disrespectful, but the standard solutions for these problems aren't as available in AL.

Take the example of the players complaining about the horse being carried forward by momentum: Would those players voice the same complaint in a home game? I would think not, but even if they did it would ultimately be up to the DM and could be discussed after the session. The semblance of overarching rules takes the role of arbiter away from the GM and gives it to an organization without the means of enforcement, which encourages certain types of players to treat the DM like a waiter while they should be viewed as the manager. I suspect that some of those bad AL DMs were good DMs who were fed up with being treated like a tool.

Tl;Dr Adventure League is good for players at the expense of DM agency and authority.