Ways to abuse Armor of Agathys [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Felvion

2016-01-08, 10:46 AM

Hello playground!
I was recently trying to build a character around the spell Armor of Agathys for a friend. It didn't go as planned (he won't play in that party) but i really got curious on whether there are any ways to maximise the benefits of that specific spell.
As far as I'm concerned, Armor of Agathys is accessible only by warlocks or bards through magical secrets. I initially thought it would be best to mix warlock with a class that has some kind of early defensive steroids to keep the temporary hp up longer and i could only come up with either barbarian (cause of rage resistances) or any heavy amor proficient class paired with the heavy armor master feat (possibly taken by a human variant at level 1).
Between the two choices, the barbarian rage makes the armor of agathys last longer but it prohibits any spellcasting attempt. Since the casting class should be prioritised (for maxing the temp hp pool and of course the damage dealt back to the attackers) being unable to cast is very limiting especially with cantrips like booming blade in the game.
On the other hand, the damage reduction from heavy armor master feat seems ok for early levels but kinda worthless later when magic damage (or just higher amounts of "mundane" damage) is common.
So my question is this: Is there any other way (either feat or different multiclassing) to better utilise the armor of agathys spell? Is it possible to reach rage damage reduction potential while still being able to cast?

gfishfunk

2016-01-08, 10:53 AM

level 1 Warlock + level 5+ wizard is a very specific exploit:

Abjuration Wizards can create an arcane ward that absorbs damage but you are still hit), so it provides an extra layer of damage absorption on top of the temp hit points. The arcane ward is refilled by casting abjuration spells...like armor of agathys.

So, the specific exploit is to cast it at your highest level. Over and over again. A level 6 slot spell with a high intelligence creates 30 temp HP, 30 Ice damage to all melee attackers, and an arcane ward that has some where in the neighborhood of 15-ish hp. Recasting Armor of Agathys refills the ward (at level spell slot) by 12 HP, and gives you 30 more temp HP.

BUT: it is basically the only thing that the build can do, and if you are playing melee, it gets very MAD.

Joe the Rat

2016-01-08, 11:02 AM

One of the few times blade ward is useful. I could attack you, or I could stand here, make myself damage resistant, and you take no-save cold damage if you hit me. It extends the life of the armor even further.

If you really want to abuse it, you're not quite as MAD, as you don't want a ton of dex. You're trying to get hit.

A few levels of Barbarian: AoA isn't concentration, so you can cast it, then rage for damage resistance. You can also reckless attack to encourage people to go after the big frost-covered shirtless guy.

zylodrizzt

2016-01-08, 11:18 AM

I once had a thought along these lines but I felt the character was too one trick pony but my thought was to not take any actual damage with moon totem abjur fiend by taking another form I'd add another layer of protection and lowers ac a bit even with barbs unarmored. Layers on abjur ward fiend temp aoa while only taking half while raging and refresh with mage armor at will canceling it every time to continue using unarmored and doing while reckless thing though It would mad and not get some of the higher level features of classes. It might go 3 totem 6 moon 5 or 6 fiend 5 or 6 abjur Idk like I said one trick pony low dmg low level abilities

Alejandro

2016-01-08, 11:26 AM

As far as I'm concerned, Armor of Agathys is accessible only by warlocks or bards through magical secrets.

If feats are being used, any class could take Magic Initiate to gain access to the spell, as well.

gfishfunk

2016-01-08, 11:35 AM

If feats are being used, any class could take Magic Initiate to gain access to the spell, as well.

-ish.

The trick with Armor of Agathys is that it only becomes good at a higher level. 5 cold damage at level 1 that is only protected by 5 temp hp is not great. Magic initiate only allows casting at level 1 of the spell, not a higher level even if you have higher level spell slots.

To get the most out of it, you need to gain the spell through a warlock level and have higher level spell-casting, probably a level 3 spell slot minimum. So either you grab pure warlock or you grab warlock + (Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric) for the multiclassing spell levels (which warlock does NOT contribute to). Dabbling in another class gets MAD (it already is decently MAD).

Definitely a one-trick pony, but a cool-ish one.

I actually have a dwarf lock/wizard waiting in the wings to use this together. Fairly MAD but interesting looking.

MaxWilson

2016-01-08, 11:48 AM

On the other hand, the damage reduction from heavy armor master feat seems ok for early levels but kinda worthless later when magic damage (or just higher amounts of "mundane" damage) is common.
So my question is this: Is there any other way (either feat or different multiclassing) to better utilise the armor of agathys spell? Is it possible to reach rage damage reduction potential while still being able to cast?

Life Cleric 1/Warlock 1/Wizard X.
Variant human: Heavy Armor Mastery
Cast Contingency: "when I take damage" => Armor of Agathys V
Cast Armor of Agathys V, then cast Stoneskin (or Blade Ward) for damage resistance.

JakOfAllTirades

2016-01-08, 02:45 PM

I've occasionally boosted the damage from Armor of Agathys using Elemental Bane. Cast as a 5th level spell, it can affect two targets (Con save for each). Armor of Agathys will potentially do an extra 2d6 of damage to each, with no cold resistance allowed.

For a warlock, I'm not sure it's worth the extra spell slot.

Socratov

2016-01-08, 05:20 PM

How about warlock/druid of the moon multiclass?

Druid gets you hitpoints like you wouldn't believe and warlock gives temp hitpoints on top of those. And you can keep concentrating on the spell while you claw your way through the enemy. Remember, you can now finally put the Polar, into the Polarbear.

Socratov

2016-01-08, 05:33 PM

Felvion

2016-01-08, 06:00 PM

MaxWilson

2016-01-08, 06:26 PM

Thanks everyone for the input so far.
I still think the best way to utilise the spell is to cast it, go in melee and make sure everyone misses their attacks on you or at least minimize their damage. So, it seems i'm just looking for early level defensive steroids. Resistance helps a lot but i feel stoneskin may be an overkill for a 4 level spell. Blade ward could be very useful in certain situations but i'm not sure it would be much better than simply taking the dodge action.
I'm afb for a while and probably will stay that way for the next ~12hrs. Any ideas would be more than welcome!

The difference here is that Blade Ward will double the amount of damage the enemy takes from Armor of Agathys cold damage, and Dodge will not.

The best early defense steroid is to use missile weapons and partial cover, but that's not really relevant to AoA unfortunately...

Chaosvii7

2016-01-08, 06:29 PM

Magic initiate only allows casting at level 1 of the spell, not a higher level even if you have higher level spell slots.

Magic Initiate does work with your spell slots. The PHB Errata clarifies that the 1st level casting limitation only applies to the free cast from the feat.

Magic Initiate (p. 168). The feat’s limit on casting the 1st-level spell applies only to the casting given by the feat.

Just says that the free cast you get from the feat is only 1st level. If you're a regular spellcaster with slots to spare you can use them to cast the spell (the feat explicitly states "you learn the spell", which implies all the regular features included with learning a spell), but that free cast only works at its lowest level.

tl;dr, 4 level investment to learn any two cantrips and 1st level spell in the game is okay if you're not a spellcaster, great if you already are.

Felvion

2016-01-08, 07:30 PM

The difference here is that Blade Ward will double the amount of damage the enemy takes from Armor of Agathys cold damage, and Dodge will not.

Am I missing something here? AFAIC Blade Ward just gives you resistance to piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. How does that doubles the damage the enemy takes?
Just saw that you have to be hit to deal the damage back. Can't believe i've overlooked this, i thought you only had to be targeted by a melee attack...
Turns out i have to look out for damage reducting features... All this time i thought that avoiding to get hit was equally good...

krugaan

2016-01-08, 07:55 PM

Bane or Reduce, I guess.

Plus all the things that give you resistance.

MaxWilson

2016-01-08, 08:19 PM

Magic Initiate does work with your spell slots. The PHB Errata clarifies that the 1st level casting limitation only applies to the free cast from the feat.

Magic Initiate (p. 168). The feat’s limit on casting the 1st-level spell applies only to the casting given by the feat.

Just says that the free cast you get from the feat is only 1st level. If you're a regular spellcaster with slots to spare you can use them to cast the spell (the feat explicitly states "you learn the spell", which implies all the regular features included with learning a spell), but that free cast only works at its lowest level.

tl;dr, 4 level investment to learn any two cantrips and 1st level spell in the game is okay if you're not a spellcaster, great if you already are.

I thought that too when I first read the errata, but then the devs, in their confusing way, clarified that the clarification was saying the opposite of what I thought it said.

If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.

In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.

So, if I'm a 9th level Sorcerer who picks up Magic Initiate (Hex), I have no class feature that lets me use my spell slots to cast Hex even though I've "learned" it, since it's not on the Sorcerer spell list. My Sorcerer Spellcasting feature from PHB 101 is only intended to let me cast sorcerer spells using those spell slots (though it's not worded very clearly).

In short, the errata changed nothing, it still works the same way as I always did--but feel free to rule differently at your own table! I've left Magic Initiate alone so far but if one of my players brought up the issue I wouldn't mind letting him use regular spell slots to cast with; I haven't houseruled it just because each houserule carries a complexity cost, which I don't want to pay without a player asking for it...

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Am I missing something here? AFAIC Blade Ward just gives you resistance to piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. How does that doubles the damage the enemy takes?
Just saw that you have to be hit to deal the damage back. Can't believe i've overlooked this, i thought you only had to be targeted by a melee attack...
Turns out i have to look out for damage reducting features... All this time i thought that avoiding to get hit was equally good...

Yep. Hence the upthread suggestion of Heavy Armor Master. If you can find a way to stack on Uncanny Dodge, that couldn't hurt either.

bid

2016-01-08, 08:40 PM

Recasting Armor of Agathys refills the ward (at level spell slot) by 12 HP, and gives you 30 more temp HP.
Technically, resets to 30 temporary HP.

You only need warlock 1 / abjuration wizard 2 to start with a 5 hp ward that can be boosted as far as you can. Going above Int13 or wizard 2 will make the initial ward stronger but that's it.

Bard 9 or wizard 9 give you 5th slots, but warlock 9 is more fun since they can cast AoA before every short rest to set the AoA to 25 hp and boost the ward by 10 hp. After 2 short rests, you could have a 25 hp ward over your 25 hp AoA if no one attacked you during the day.

Starting 16 10 14 13 10 14 is doable for a half-elf, that leaves 2 feats after capping Str20.

MaxWilson

2016-01-08, 09:04 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention: the BEST way for a Warlock 2/Necromancer X to exploit Armor of Agathys is to Magic Jar into the body of a weretiger or werebear and then cast Armor of Agathys. Now you get hit a lot, but you don't take any damage from non-magical/non-silver weapons, while the enemy takes huge amounts of damage on every hit.

JackPhoenix

2016-01-08, 09:41 PM

coredump

2016-01-08, 09:48 PM

I present you: Volibear, the Polar polarbear

druid of the moon circle 6/ Warlock of the Fey 10

Step 1: cast armour of Agathys at 5th level (that's 25 temp hp and 25 dmg)
Step 2: wildshape as a bonus action (42 hp, making a hp pool before your own of 67 hp)
Step 3: chill the **** out of everyone!
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Be way cooler then Fonzie.

But that doesn't really help AoA.... you still have the same 25 THP before the spell stops working.

[S]
Just saw that you have to be hit to deal the damage back. Can't believe i've overlooked this, i thought you only had to be targeted by a melee attack...
Turns out i have to look out for damage reducting features... All this time i thought that avoiding to get hit was equally good...
Yeppers..... high AC is kind of counter productive. Heavy Armor Master is decent, but I think it is too much of an investment. Uncanny dodge would be great... but not sure if the levels of Rogue are worth it since no spellcasting levels.... Barb Rage is even better, but again, no spellcasting levels means AoA is really weak. The only useful combo I have found is Abjuration Wizard, and sometimes Blade Ward.

I thought that too when I first read the errata, but then the devs, in their confusing way, clarified that the clarification was saying the opposite of what I thought it said.

So, if I'm a 9th level Sorcerer who picks up Magic Initiate (Hex), I have no class feature that lets me use my spell slots to cast Hex even though I've "learned" it, since it's not on the Sorcerer spell list. My Sorcerer Spellcasting feature from PHB 101 is only intended to let me cast sorcerer spells using those spell slots (though it's not worded very clearly).
Nicely explained.
The errata only clarifies a restriction, it does not give a permission. A sorcerer has no permission to use their slots for cleric spells, so if they grab a cleric spell via MI, they have no permission to use their slots for it. If they take a level of cleric, then they can use any slot for the spell.

Technically, resets to 30 temporary HP.

You only need warlock 1 / abjuration wizard 2 to start with a 5 hp ward that can be boosted as far as you can. Going above Int13 or wizard 2 will make the initial ward stronger but that's it.

Bard 9 or wizard 9 give you 5th slots, but warlock 9 is more fun since they can cast AoA before every short rest to set the AoA to 25 hp and boost the ward by 10 hp. After 2 short rests, you could have a 25 hp ward over your 25 hp AoA if no one attacked you during the day.

Starting 16 10 14 13 10 14 is doable for a half-elf, that leaves 2 feats after capping Str20.
I am confused, so to be clear.... casting abjuration spells lets you *regain* ward hit points. If you cast it as a wiz1 with int 3, your ward is 5hp. You cannot 'regain' points to push that any higher than 5.

Oh, I forgot to mention: the BEST way for a Warlock 2/Necromancer X to exploit Armor of Agathys is to Magic Jar into the body of a weretiger or werebear and then cast Armor of Agathys. Now you get hit a lot, but you don't take any damage from non-magical/non-silver weapons, while the enemy takes huge amounts of damage on every hit.
Wow...never even considered that.... heh...something to look forward to trying.

bid

2016-01-08, 10:50 PM

I am confused, so to be clear.... casting abjuration spells lets you *regain* ward hit points. If you cast it as a wiz1 with int 3, your ward is 5hp. You cannot 'regain' points to push that any higher than 5.
Oh, right. Brain fart.

So you'd need 5ish levels of wizard to cap at 12ish ward hp.

JackOfAllBuilds

2016-01-09, 10:06 AM

I think an alternate abuse of Armor of Agathys would be Fighter EK or Arcane Trickster, and a Lore Bard. Str or Dex,and Cha.

Heavy armor mastery to reduce B/S/P by 3, EK 7+ to Blade Ward to resist them, and still get in a swing.

Or go Arcane trickster 5+ for additional spell casting and Uncanny Dodge to Resist.

Then LB 6+ for magical secrets to get Armor of Agathys and Cutting Words (which you can subtract an inspiration from a damage roll Cha mod times per short rest)

Use the EK/AT for mostly utility spells, Bard for damage/saves

*Edit: Almost forgot, also take Protection from Elements as other magical secret. Concentration resist 1 type elemental damage

coredump

2016-01-09, 11:01 AM

MaxWilson

2016-01-09, 01:02 PM

*Edit: Almost forgot, also take Protection from Elements as other magical secret. Concentration resist 1 type elemental damage

Absorb Elements does almost exactly the same job, is only first level, and doesn't require concentration. It's even available to EKs for "free" since it's Abjuration.

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-09, 07:04 PM

You can cast the MI spell from the regular slots only if you take MI for your class...so you'll still need at least one level of Warlock, making Magic Initiate redundant

Slightly redundant, you essentially get an extra "cast this spell 1\day" invocation and don't have to learn the spell as one of your spell known.

Malknafein

2016-01-10, 07:25 AM

Take 1 level of Fighter(2 if you want Action Surge) or 2 levels of Paladin, several levels of warlock, and at remaining levels take Sorcerer.

Variant Human for War Caster, Full Plate + Shield + Defense Fighting Style for 21 AC.

Go to melee and if they hit you - cast Shield(and bring your AC to 26). Hit triggers AoA(Armor of Agathys) damage, but if attack misses your new AC score - you will prevent damage. Works great with Stoneskin spell and as Sorcerer - you can cast AoA or Stoneskin spells as bonus action.

You can even swap Favored Soul for Draconic(Cold) Sorcerer and have +CHA modifier to AoA damage. Unfortunately, sorcerers don`t have Fire Shield spell :(

JackOfAllBuilds

2016-01-10, 08:43 AM

Absorb Elements does almost exactly the same job, is only first level, and doesn't require concentration. It's even available to EKs for "free" since it's Abjuration.

Absorb elements is only a temporary reaction akin to shield. While I agree it would be good to have as a backup, I think concentration resistance is nothing to shake a stick at. And the fighter being proficient in Con saves helps. Endgame of EK 8 LB 12 also ends you at a 14th level caster, which isn't bad, and 6 ASI's

Also a Dex build EK/LB is viable if you don't want to go heavy armor master

JackOfAllBuilds

2016-01-10, 08:48 AM

I think to keep the AoA damage, and THP, high enough to be an issue.... you really need a full caster. I just don't think something like EK or AT will be useful.
But I do like the idea of Bard....full caster, steal AoA, use cutting words as a form of 'resistance'..... interesting....

I really like the uncanny dodge and cutting words, you can pick which to go with depending on the damage amount. and either works with resistance if you have blade Ward/protection from elements/stoneskin up.

Felvion

2016-01-10, 12:25 PM

Take 1 level of Fighter(2 if you want Action Surge) or 2 levels of Paladin, several levels of warlock, and at remaining levels take Sorcerer
It's one f the builds i've been thinking of, really appealing and very close to the theme i had in mind. Then i realised that you have to get hit to trigger AoA dmg and i kinda left the high armor idea.
I have to admit i'm quite confused recently about the armor. First off, it may work against AoA as it makes you hard to hit. Another of my concerns has always been that even though i may try to utilise AoA, the enemies may think differently. Ranged attacks or spell damage can wreck my "shield" of temp HPs. Armor can deal with ranged attacks but not spell damage. Some protection spells would help (they are in almost every spell list including the warlock's), racial resistances could be a thing but maybe dms would like to work around them.
So, I'm kinda left there hanging. Warlock seems to be the core of this build but the limited spell slots make a second protection spell (after AoA) both costly and probably not worth the action economy. Some sorcerer levels would add slots and deal with action economy but they should come too late (probably after 10 and it would take at least 3 levels to have a respectable effect) to be a core part of the build.

You can even swap Favored Soul for Draconic(Cold) Sorcerer and have +CHA modifier to AoA damage. Unfortunately, sorcerers don`t have Fire Shield spell :(
I'm glad you mentioned fire shield. The spell is on warlock's fiend patron list and it would stack greatly with AoA in a specific heavy melee situation.

Variant Human for War Caster
I'm not that sure warcaster is really necessary. First off, it's a build that doesn't focus on casting during combat except from booming blade (if extra attack is not online yet) that doesn't actually require material components. Most of the spells i've been looking for this concept don't require concentration (including AoA itself) although booming opportunity attacks (not sure if it's valid) are too good to pass. Still not sure if they're worth the feat.

In general, i'm torn between building
1)A v. human wizard that picks magic initiate (assuming we accept other slots can be used for the feat's spell) for AoA and utilises stuff like shield, haste, fire shield, transmuter stone, arcane ward or even bladesong
2)A dwarf (+2 STR, +2 CON, medium armor, poison resistance, weapon proficiency) warlock with small dip in sorcerer for few extra low level spells like expeditious retreat, shield, misty step, dragon resilience and metamagic
3)A goliath or mountain dwarf melee lore bard that uses cutting words (and potential racial DR) for his defence and knows magical secrets like Armor of Agathys, booming blade at level 6 (both essential for the melee concept) and fire shield, haste at level 10 or
1)Fighter for heavy armor and variant human for heavy armor mastery too keep the temporary HPs a bit more. Fighting style is great at level 1. After the warlock levels, action surge is awesome even as a 10 level ability, the extra ASI rocks, indomitable and the potential of a 3rd attack at 20 (warlock 9/ fighter 11) are the build's cupstones.
Eldritch knight offers low level slots, spell utility/defense like shield, absorb elements, expeditious retreat and war magic while battlemaster has parry to reduce damage and lots of other thematic tools like goading attack.
2)Paladin is not hard to multiclass but offers nothing than heavy armor (+heavy armor mastery potential) and weapon proficiency early. The class scales great, maybe too late for the build, but the extra slots and all those paladin stuff are always welcome for a gish
3)Barbarian... It's been my initial choice for the build but turned out to be the best candidate both for the one that synergises worst or best! The best possible starting HD in game, of course con saves but most important, rage and reckless attack. Rage (and potentially bear rage) practically doubles the Armor of Agathys temp HP pool. Reckless attack is a great tool, especially for this build, as it helps you control the damage income. Rage bonus damage is equivalent to dueling fighting style with scaling potential.
Barbarian may be the least flashy option cause of the spell limitation while in rage but it's stil manageable since AoA can be cast way before the battle (it lasts for 1 hour) and doesn't require concentration. Also it's the only build that starts better with more non-caster levels early since getting bear (almost) asap seems optimal. Race is open to v.human (for feats like lucky or GWM), goliath (the cold damage from AoA fits the mountain born fluff), h.orc, dwarf and even non-variant human to enable starting stats of 16/14/16/9/9/13.
Note here that spell limitation may not hurt that much after all. Considering that warlock's spellslots are limited and one of them would be used at the battle start for AoA anyway it's not much one would give up. Maybe it's a way to fix a bladelock's combat needs without intense slot management during combat.

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-10, 01:00 PM

I feel like Barbarian (bear totem) 3/Warlock (fey-chain or fey-blade) 3/Paladin (ancients) 14 would be a great set up for this.

AoA isn't a concentration spell.

Cast AoA and then go into Bearbarian Rage (resistance to everything) and just have a grand old time.

Paladin would get you a bit of spells (up to 4th level, just one though) and a ton of defensive abilities. Plus you can just dump dex so your AC isn't the greatest. Dueling style + rage damage + extra attack + resistances + Paladin defense... Plus AoA... Damn I like this dude.

Edit

Raging Smite of Nature... Nice

Rummy

2016-01-10, 04:22 PM

Heavy Armor Mastery is the way to go if you are like most people and never make it past level 12 in actual play. AoA doesn't really kick in until cast as a third level spell, so a Vuman HAM F1/W5 could get mileage out of it starting at 6th level. Since 5e has a number of monsters that rely on multiattacks to do damage, -3 for each attack will make AoA last at least one use longer.

Felvion

2016-01-10, 04:47 PM

Heavy Armor Mastery is the way to go if you are like most people and never make it past level 12 in actual play.

That's true. Not only my group never reaches high levels but most of them are busy lately, we're not playing at all. The whole thread started as a theory and part of a build i was trying to make for a friend. Now i got excited with the concept and i'd like to play such a character myself but as i said i'ts highly unlikely to happen soon.
Funny thing is that i personally prefer the barbarian/warlock option but if i had the chance to play i'd rather make a whole different character since 90% of my playing experience in 5th are warlock or barbarian characters.

Lonely Tylenol

2016-01-10, 05:09 PM

I would probably settle on either a Vuman Fighter 1/Warlock X/Fighter +X (alternating as you wish, but ending at Eldritch Knight 7-8/Bladelock 12-13) for getting Bladelock tricks, Blade Ward which allows a bonus action attack, heavy armor proficiency (and Master), AoA to the highest level that Warlock can get it, and a build that is decent from 1-20.

Cheese strats would probably be your choice of Barbarian or Fighter 1 (Barbarian resistance and Heavy Armor Master are mutually exclusive)/Warlock 1/Dragon Sorcerer 18. This gets you Armor of Agathys known through Warlock, but cast through Sorcerer slots (which you get to 9th); your choice of resistance to damage (you only want or need resistance to the types of damage melee attacks deal if your goal is maximizing damage output) or Heavy Armor Master; add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt by AoA; and eventually gain unlimited flight which isn't attached to concentration, so you can fly by your own merit while under rage, enabling yourself to remain within melee range of anything. Bard 18-19 could work as well, and remains a solid option if you start high-level enough to start play with a magical secret.

coredump

2016-01-10, 06:17 PM

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-10, 06:29 PM

I still think you guys are over complicating this, and picking classes that don't synchronize well.

Barb 1 let you rage 2 times a day... Not that helpful
If you take a lot of barb or fighter or pal....... Then the AoA is too low level to make much impact. You really want to be a full caster for the AoA impact.

I still have not heard anything better than war2 abjur wizX

Are you kidding me?

Barbarian synergies perfectly because you want low AC (you can have low dex (10) but still a decent sex save due to advantage), gain resistances to everything (except psychic), can rage and have AoA up, and gives you Con Saves (Bar/War/Pal or Bar/War/Sor both work great).

You want to be in melee for AoA to work. You have advantage on all attacks, but so do enemies, your AoA is more likely to go off with the barbarian than any other class AND you can survive looking your temp HP.

Wizard is great too, but Barbarian synergizes perfectly for this build.

bid

2016-01-10, 06:44 PM

Wizard is great too, but Barbarian synergizes perfectly for this build.
Yeah, with barbarian you only need half the caster levels and still get the same number of "hits" for your AoA before it drops. But even then you will only do half the damage overall because your AoA is at half power.

So maybe a barbarian level later on, once your AoA is strong enough. If you have 20 hp AoA, rage extents it roughly the same as the 20 hp ward of an abjuration 8.

Lonely Tylenol

2016-01-10, 07:04 PM

Yeah, with barbarian you only need half the caster levels and still get the same number of "hits" for your AoA before it drops. But even then you will only do half the damage overall because your AoA is at half power.

??????

A single level in Barbarian only makes AoA "half power" at character level 3. It makes it "two thirds" power at character level 5, "three-fourths" power at character level 7... And so on. But during every even-numbered level, it's at full power, and at the same time, lasts twice as long thanks to resistance.

Felvion

2016-01-10, 07:34 PM

I still think you guys are over complicating this, and picking classes that don't synchronize well.

Barb 1 let you rage 2 times a day... Not that helpful
If you take a lot of barb or fighter or pal....... Then the AoA is too low level to make much impact. You really want to be a full caster for the AoA impact.

I still have not heard anything better than war2 abjur wizX

That's not as good as you think. First off, you don't need a second level in warlock. Of course, you get it for the cool invocations but it doesn't help much, it's better to go wizard earlier.
Early game you're going to have a really hard time. Your armor would be very low, shield could help occasionally but still it's not enough. Your physical saves would be bad, the ward would go off in the first AOE damage spell. In overall, do you think that a character with 13 in int and cha can be viable in melee? I mean, it's possible, but not with this specific concept imo..

bid

2016-01-10, 07:35 PM

??????

A single level in Barbarian only makes AoA "half power" at character level 3. It makes it "two thirds" power at character level 5, "three-fourths" power at character level 7... And so on. But during every even-numbered level, it's at full power, and at the same time, lasts twice as long thanks to resistance.
"need"

So a barbarian 1 / warlock 3 can cast a 10 hp AOA which lasts as long as the 20 hp AoA of a warlock 7. But it will do half the overall damage.

Lonely Tylenol

2016-01-10, 07:41 PM

"need":smallsigh:

That explains nothing. Why would "needing" only half levels to have the same number of temporary HP mean anything? We're talking about a build that makes the most out of Armor of Agathys, not one that hits a very specific threshold of usefulness that is actually less than default AoA.

EDIT response to edit:

So a barbarian 1 / warlock 3 can cast a 10 hp AOA which lasts as long as the 20 hp AoA of a warlock 7. But it will do half the overall damage.

This still doesn't make any sense to me, because we're comparing a fourth-level character's capabilities to a seventh-level character's. :smallconfused:

You're explaining something that is just axiomatic (resistance doubles the effectiveness of temp HP), but you're doing it in a way that seems really roundabout to me, and doesn't have any why attached to its significance. What's the point of bringing up doing half the damage? There's exactly one level in which that's true in a level-by-level comparison.

bid

2016-01-10, 08:13 PM

This still doesn't make any sense to me, because we're comparing a fourth-level character's capabilities to a seventh-level character's. :smallconfused:
I am showing the key point which makes barbarian compete with abjuration. Both cause AoA to last as long as the pure AoA from a higher caster. Think of it as a building block not as a final product.

Of course, I then go on and actually show how it compares with abjuration: "If you have 20 hp AoA, rage extents it roughly the same as the 20 hp ward of an abjuration 8."

So barbarian 1 / warlock 7 works about as well as warlock 1 / wizard 7. Therefore "Wizard is great too, but Barbarian synergizes perfectly for this build."

Lonely Tylenol

2016-01-10, 10:30 PM

I am showing the key point which makes barbarian compete with abjuration. Both cause AoA to last as long as the pure AoA from a higher caster. Think of it as a building block not as a final product.

Of course, I then go on and actually show how it compares with abjuration: "If you have 20 hp AoA, rage extents it roughly the same as the 20 hp ward of an abjuration 8."

So barbarian 1 / warlock 7 works about as well as warlock 1 / wizard 7. Therefore "Wizard is great too, but Barbarian synergizes perfectly for this build."

Ah, I get you now. Basically: Barbarian is better over time because it's a multiplier, not additive.

Thanks!

MaxWilson

2016-01-10, 10:40 PM

Has anyone mentioned White Dragon Sorcerer yet for the extra +5 damage per hit? Probably not worth it, but just as a thought experiment:

An Arcane Trickster 5/Warlock 2/White Dragon Sorcerer 6/Abjuror 6/Barb 1 would always start every combat with a fully-charged Arcane Ward due to Armor of Shadows/Arcane Ward Synergy. With three ASIs, he could have Int 20 or Cha 20 based on standard point buy, but not both. He has a casting level of 13, and either 16 or 17 HP of Arcane Ward (depending on whether he maxed Int or Cha). Between rage and Uncanny Dodge, he takes 1/4 damage from the first hit per round, and he inflicts 29 or 30 damage in return (again, depending on whether Int or Cha is maxed).

I'm going to arbitrarily say he's fighting an infinite sequence of Earth Elementals, each of which hits him once per round for exactly 14 of damage per hit when he is fighting it. In this scenario, he takes 3 damage per hit while Rage lasts and 7 damage per hit afterward.

With Int 20, the Earth Elemental takes inflicts 30 damage in the first ten rounds (17 vs. Arcane Ward, 13 vs. AoA) leaving 12 HP in AoA. Two rounds later, AoA will be gone and he'll have taken 2 real HP of damage. 12*29 = 348 HP will have been inflicted on the Earth Elementals, killing two and leaving the third at 30 HP.

With Int 18, it will take the same twelve rounds for the Earth Elemental to pound through, but the wizard will take 3 real HP of damage. 12*30 = 360 HP will have been inflicted on the Earth Elementals, leaving the third one at 18 HP.

If we drop White Dragon Sorc in favor of Arcane Trickster 5/Barb 1/Warlock 2/Abjuror 12, he'll have Int 20 and the Arcane Ward will have 29 HP, but AoA will only inflict 25 HP per hit. The Earth Elementals will require ((29+25-30)/7)=3.42 rounds to batter through after the Rage completes, so will take AoA damage 14 times. 14*25=350 HP of damage, so it will kill two Earth Elementals and leave the third at 28 HP.

So, it's kind of a wash between Dragon Sorc and Abjuror. Might as well take the Abjuror for more wizard spells, right?

But! What if you were a Arcane Trickster 5/Warlock 1/White Dragon Sorcerer 6/Abjuror 8 Deep Gnome?!? You have four ASIs, one of which goes to Svirfneblin Magic and the other three of which go to maxing Cha and boosting Int to 18. Now your Arcane Ward has (4+8*2)=20 HP, and it regains 6 HP each time you use your action to re-cast Nondetection on yourself. You pre-cast Stoneskin on yourself for 100 gp of components, and now the Earth Elemental hits you for 3 HP of damage, you cast Nondetection and the ward regains those HP, and you don't have to make a Concentration save because you didn't take damage (the ward did). Once Stoneskin runs out, you will take 7 HP of damage from each hit, and the ward will regain 6, so it will take 14 rounds for the ward to be depleted... but you don't care because Armor of Agathys will have expired too. Over the 599 rounds it takes for Stoneskin and Armor of Agathys to both run out, you will inflict 30 HP per round, for a total of 17,970 HP of damage, killing 142 Earth Elementals and leaving the 143rd at 78 HP.

But of course all this is pointless, because the aforementioned Warlock 2/Necromancer 18 in a weretiger's body is not only infinitely better at killing with Armor of Agathys, he is also more all-around versatile, a full archmage with a skeleton army and a ranged Force damage intrinsic attack, etc. But I think we have established that the Dragon Sorc approach vs. Abjuror is kind of a wash.

bid

2016-01-10, 11:37 PM

With three ASIs, he could have Int 20 or Cha 20 based on standard point buy, but not both.
Half-elf can start 16 16 13 13 10 8 with the Str/Dex requirements. Con10 is a little too weak, much better to start Con14 / Int14 and end Int18 / Cha18.
- 18 hp ward from abjuration 6 and Int18
- 35 hp AoA with 7th slot of level 13 caster = 1 (AT rogue) + 6 (sorcerer) + 6 (wizard)
- +4 cold damage from white dragon sorcerer 6 and Cha18

With rage and uncanny dodge, you have an effective 212 thp that cause 39 cold damage on every hit.
- 15 hits do 210 damage to AoA/ward
- 16 hits do 624 damage to the elementals

If 2 elementals attack you at the same time:
- 5+5 hits do 210 damage to AoA/ward
- 11 hits do 429 damage to the elementals

As you say, dropping the sorcerer levels to get abjuration 12 gives you 29 hp ward for effective 256 thp:
- 18 hits do 252 damage to AoA/ward
- 19 hits do 665 damage to the elementals
- 6+6 hits do 210 damage to AoA/ward
- 13 hits do 455 damage to the elementals

Dropping barbarian for deep gnome abjuration 13 cheese gives you 31 hp ward and those poor elementals only do 1 damage effective.
- 60 hits do {60*7 - 59*6 = 66} damage to AoA/ward
- 60 hits do 2100 damage to the elementals
- 3+3 hits do 63 damage to AoA/ward
- 8 hits do 280 damage to the elementals

Of course, since you aren't doing any damage (nondetection or 5d6+1 twf SA rage), they'll just ignore you and go for the rest of the party. Same problem as a tank.

Lonely Tylenol

2016-01-10, 11:59 PM

Has anyone mentioned White Dragon Sorcerer yet for the extra +5 damage per hit?

Yes I have!

Cheese strats would probably be your choice of Barbarian or Fighter 1 (Barbarian resistance and Heavy Armor Master are mutually exclusive)/Warlock 1/Dragon Sorcerer 18. This gets you Armor of Agathys known through Warlock, but cast through Sorcerer slots (which you get to 9th); . . . add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt by AoA; . . .

MaxWilson

2016-01-11, 11:02 AM

Yes I have!

Good suggestion then! Sorry for not seeing it before. :)

SpawnOfMorbo

2016-01-11, 11:04 AM

Good suggestion then! Sorry for not seeing it before. :)

For not seeing something on the internet, punishment is in order....:smallfurious:

100 1 hour of nickleback!

:smalltongue:

Edit

Oh god, I'm not a monster! I swear!

coredump

2016-01-11, 12:54 PM

I think you are still looking at the features on a page and not actually thinking of the character during actual game-play. There is some synergy, but they continually work at cross purposes.

??????

A single level in Barbarian.....
Yes, *if* you only take one level of Barb, then the 'cost' to the AoA is minimal. But then so is the benefits. Assuming you have 6 encounters in a day, that one level of Barb will only let you Rage during two of them, and only after your turn, and will not help against magical weapons or spells.
Further, it means that half the time (every other level) it will cost you a level of AoA damage. (-5 damage, -5 THP)
So the combination means it will subtract 30 THP throughout the day (and do less damage throughout the day), and twice it will also add damage.
Barb1/War6 will gain 30THP due to Rage, and yet lose 30THP due to the Barb1..... The damage depends on how many hits it take per AoA; but the also pretty much cancel out.
Granted, if you are having fewer encounters, the Barb1 does better (more encounters=worse), and as you are going up levels it does better. But even then it limits itself. No matter how many 'extra' THP a rage gives you, it only helps for 1 encounter (twice a day). Anything above that is 'wasted'. So you have 20 AoA THP, and Rage.... you can think about it as having '20 extra THP'.... except if you barely get hit..... you don't get to keep those THP, they just disappear.

And again, this is only dealing with 1 level of Barb, which is likely the best scenario. But check out Marbo's post again (and Felvions), they are talking about taking much more than 1 level.... Felvion is talking about 10! Marbo is at least 3, maybe more....

Are you kidding me?

Barbarian synergies perfectly because you want low AC (you can have low dex (10) but still a decent sex save due to advantage), gain resistances to everything (except psychic), can rage and have AoA up, and gives you Con Saves (Bar/War/Pal or Bar/War/Sor both work great).
See...?? More levels. And no, I am not 'kidding you' Marbo....

The problem is, the more levels you take, the more you are hurting AoA. The fewer THP you have available to 'double' and the less damage you are doing when you get hit. Lets say you take 6 levels (to get 4 rages).
Now everytime you AoA, you are getting 15 THP less than you normally would, *and* doing 15 damage less than you normally would.
Off the top of my head, it looks like you would need Warlock 9 just to *break even*, that is a 15th level PC before you can break even.

And there is the rub, you can take a little barb and only hurt AoA a little, but also only get a little benefit. Or you can take a lot of Barb, get a lot of benefit, but then also hurt AoA a lot. The two choices do *not* synergize.....they are working against each other.

And we haven't even touched on how all those Warlock levels are impacting the Barbs ability to melee....

That's not as good as you think. First off, you don't need a second level in warlock. Of course, you get it for the cool invocations but it doesn't help much, it's better to go wizard earlier.
Early game you're going to have a really hard time. Your armor would be very low, shield could help occasionally but still it's not enough. Your physical saves would be bad, the ward would go off in the first AOE damage spell. In overall, do you think that a character with 13 in int and cha can be viable in melee? I mean, it's possible, but not with this specific concept imo..
Armor was 15, not 'low'. No need nor desire for a shield, I want to get hit. Why do I care about physical saves more than mental ones? 16 Int and 14 Cha to start, then up Int. Full wizards like their Int.....

The ward is always up, works against *all* damage types, magical or not. But best of all, it can be recharged, so it can be used for *every* encounter. Lastly, I can use the Wiz slots for AoA, so I can take more wiz levels without further hurting AoA.

coredump

2016-01-11, 01:20 PM

Felvion

2016-01-11, 04:17 PM

Felvion is talking about 10!
Well i never said that. In fact i wouldn't even bother to comment on it but after some painful barbarian playtesting i strongly believe that you either don't multiclass at all for the lvl 20 capstone or you leave the class as early as possible after taking bear totem. For example in my build (if i ever make it to playing it) i wouldn't even go barb4 unless i needed that ASI desperately.

I think you are still looking at the features on a page and not actually thinking of the character during actual game-play. There is some synergy, but they continually work at cross purposes.
IMHO, since this build is intended for close combat so a few early barbarian levels won't hurt. AoA is good but if you happen to get caught off guard it could prove devastating for a straight warlock/wizard.

No need nor desire for a shield, I want to get hit I meant the shield spell. Ranged attacks could wear off your ward/AoA without procing any damage. 15 ac is not bad, not great either but still you don't actually "control" the damage income like a barbarian would with reckless attack.
Also you are a bit vulnerable to stuff like fireball and AOE damage in general.

Assuming you have 6 encounters in a day
This means that everyone would eventually run out of resources. Even then, i prefer to have a half barbarian-half warlock at level 6 than a straight wizard build to fight in melee.

Note here that even though i seem negative on some of your thoughts, i believe your build is a very good one. Perhaps it may be better than mine but i just like the barbarian theme.

MaxWilson

2016-01-11, 04:59 PM

I don't see Arcane Trickster as costing levels of Armor of Agathys, but that's because my bias is to pretty much ignore spells over level 5 because of scarcity, especially under spell point variants. Casting Armor of Agathys with a spell slot over 5th level would be a complete waste.

Also, Rage and Uncanny Dodge will not kick in until the Ward is gone, since you do no take any damage until the ward is gone. Those features do not have synergy here. (This will change a lot of your calculations.)

Good point. You can tell that I've never actually been sufficiently interested in an Abjuror to play one.

Looks like Magic Jar is still the king.

Ah....but a Warlock2/Abjurer 18 can *also* use the weretiger body trick, and *still* have a 41hp Ward going.

True, and that Ward can protect you against AoE and magic damage, etc.

My meta-point was that fiddling around the margins with number optimizations is less interesting to me, as a CAW player, than finding a qualitatively dominant strategy and exploiting it to the hilt. AoA specialization can keep me entertained long enough to write a forum post evaluating the magnitude of the benefit from specialization, which appears to max out at about 300% normal effectiveness; would never keep me entertained long enough to play an AoA-centric character in a game. Any build which is useless against CR 1/4 goblins with shortbows is not one I'm genuinely interested in.

Dudewithknives

2017-09-13, 09:21 PM

I am intrigued by this idea.

If I went warlock 2, for armor of Agathys and armor of ahadows/agonizing blast, patron does not make a huge difference, and 17 abjurer wizard would only put me 2 levels behind a full caster.

Question is, what stats?

Max cha and get as much Int as I can and use mostly defense and buff spells, or max int and get as much cha as I can later for not maxed out EB?

Also technically could I choose to use less of my AC than I have, like take hexblade and wear half plate and use a shield, but if they are in melee could I try to get his and five then advantage to hit me and not use my shield AC, but still keep it all if they are using ranged or spell attacks?

bid

2017-09-13, 09:28 PM

Necromancers are frowned upon, start a new thread.

Dudewithknives

2017-09-13, 09:35 PM

Necromancers are frowned upon, start a new thread.

A new thread when this one is literally the exact question I was going to ask?

That is pointless and if I did people would just complain that this one is already in the forums and link to it.

TheUser

2017-09-13, 09:44 PM

Dudewithknives

2017-09-13, 09:50 PM

Warlock 2/ Abjuration Wizard X

Arcane Ward + Stoneskin with Armor of Agathys
The ward takes damage first then the armor but the armor always does rebound damage.

Later you get advantage on lots of saves, resistance to spell damage and super counterspells to combat non-physical damage from spells; covers lot of bases.

You cab recharge your ward with Armor of Shadows Invocation.

That was my basic plan other than the stoneskin part.

The issue is, should I even bother boosting charisma? Other than skills all it will really do is boost eldritch blast.

Patron is also kind of iffy. None are really specifically great for the build as far as I can see.

Fiend is kind of hampered due to the fact I will already have temp hp due to AoA, hexblade is ok but I want to get hit so no help from the armor or shield. Seeker is just plain crap to begin with, undying is not far behind. Maybe great old one just for RP and telepathy?

UrielAwakened

2017-09-13, 10:18 PM

A new thread when this one is literally the exact question I was going to ask?

That is pointless and if I did people would just complain that this one is already in the forums and link to it.

Thank you.

I've never understood this stupid rule. Why start a new thread for the exact same discussion rather than just continuing it where you found it?

Hexblade is the best Patron for this, you get Medium armor and can take advantage of being in melee all the time with Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade if you don't want to take Crossbow Expert to be able to use Eldritch Blast in melee.

bid

2017-09-13, 11:24 PM

A new thread when this one is literally the exact question I was going to ask?
Because after (almost) 2 years, many things are outdated. Old opinions are invalidated by new UA, SA, and the recent errata reversals.

And because:

Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from "the dead." If a thread hasn't been posted in within the last 45 days, don't reply to it. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss the subject (you are welcome to link to the old thread). If you think it would be better to resurrect an old thread, PM a moderator for that subforum and wait for approval. The original poster of a creation in Homebrew (and only that poster) may revive a creation beyond the 45 day threshold without prior Moderator approval.

Sir cryosin

2017-09-14, 07:34 AM

Dudewithknives

2017-09-14, 08:32 AM

Spiritchaser

2017-09-14, 08:49 AM

Has anyone mentioned White Dragon Sorcerer yet for the extra +5 damage per hit?

I'm fairly sure that the damage bonus wouldn't apply to multiple damage rolls/attacks

Much in the same way that it won't buff elemental weapon for more than the first attack or scorching ray more than one time

Sir cryosin

2017-09-14, 09:00 AM

I looked at that but I kind of want to go in the opposite direction.

I want melee attackers to hit me.
I do not want high ac, I want high resistances.
Maximum spell casting level is very important.
I also was wondering if I could voluntarily lower my ac for an attack?
Like can I have a shield a d not use it for melee but keep it for ranged? I do not figure I can do that for my physical armor but I could give them advantage.

That all find and dandy. But won't keep attacking you if everything they hit you thay get hurt. So you need to be able to hurt them with out AoA. You need to give them reason to hurt you with melee. Using the rogues cunning action to dash work to stay right on top of enemy's. Using uncanny dodge to cut damage in half. Provoke AoO's as much as possible. Fighting style dueling and don't use a shield. Wear chain mail its still heavy armor but lower AC.

Spiritchaser

2017-09-14, 09:01 AM

I'd dogpile on with the barb votes... barbarian 2 or more, warlock X

More specifically, I'd go with a half elven strength hexblade blade-lock. I'd take elven accuracy and GWM, then recklessly attack while raging.

Curse of hexes can be up while rage is up... and reckless attack goes perfectly with eleven accuracy, hexblade curse, AoA and rage.

I'm going to hit you, because I'm rolling three times. I'm going to hit you hard because of GWM (and the curse, plus rage plus eventually lifedrinker). I'm going to hit you fast and repeatedly because reckless attack and eleven accuracy plus that curse will crit lots and proc the extra attack on GWM often.
You're going to hit me because you have advantage, because of reckless attack, (unless curse of hexes messes you up but that's fun too) but you won't hurt me because of AoA, in fact because of rage, you won't drain that AoA much.

Or I have all the other warlock tricks

Basically AoA abuse as part of a larger package

UrielAwakened

2017-09-14, 12:06 PM

Because after (almost) 2 years, many things are outdated. Old opinions are invalidated by new UA, SA, and the recent errata reversals.

And because:

Why not just have threads auto-lock after 45 days then like every other message board with that rule.

And yeah your best bet is probably the aforementioned Warlock 2/Abjurerer 18. Take Agonizing Blast and Armor of Shadows as your invocations. You're fine getting hit since you have a huge resevoir of Ward HP that you can refill at-will by spamming Mage Armor after each encounter. If they don't attack you, you're still spamming Eldritch Blasts which are like the most damaging cantrip in the game. You can even go for the max Cha/Con build, leave Int at like at 14, and rely entirely on Wizard utilities that don't require either attack or saving throws so your int never matters. Use your ton Wizard spells to always have a max-level AoA spell up and pour the rest into utility and defensive buffs.

Even with d6 hit dice, your ward gives you more effective HP than a Barbarian with rage down and that's before figuring in the ability to recharge it between encounters (not even during short rests. Just any time you can spam-cast Mage Armor over and over).

Joe the Rat

2017-09-14, 12:33 PM

Here is my build start as a Vhuman fighter feat HAM gets you heavy armor and later go EK. Next level warlock pick up blade Ward and armor of Agathy's. At 3rd level take into rogue later going into At. So at 4th level go EK fighter up tell fighter level 6 for war magic. Why you want it is to cast blade Ward then make a bonus action attack with a rapier. Then finish out in At rogue. This build gives you spell slots to turn into AoA. Let you every round cast blade ward and still to decent melee damage thanks to sneak attack.

I looked at that but I kind of want to go in the opposite direction.

I want melee attackers to hit me.
I do not want high ac, I want high resistances.
Maximum spell casting level is very important.
I also was wondering if I could voluntarily lower my ac for an attack?
Like can I have a shield a d not use it for melee but keep it for ranged? I do not figure I can do that for my physical armor but I could give them advantage.

Hmm... War 1/EK 7/AT 5+ for always available damage mitigation, which is essential as your AoA will only be doing 10/15 damage. It kind of splits the focus.
Ring mail is AC 14. Carry a shield for extra defense when needed (and you can do a shield 1/sr from the pact slot), and go dex for Defensive Duelist for those rare occasions you do need to avoid a hit rather than mitigate it.

Duelist fighting style. Between War Magic and rogue shenanigans, bonus actions will be too busy for two-weapon. If you eschew Rogue, great weapon is a possibility.

This is where Barbarian has a distinct advantage - defense is highly flexible. Reckless Attack is in many ways a "kick me" sign - and one you can turn on and off each turn as needed. Reckless Raging Extra Attack (Barb 5 or Bladelock 5) on a greatsword will do better than 3die of sneak with a rapier, and be less target-placement dependent. But this is not something you can do practically in every fight - you only have a few rages - that's a distinct benefit for the bladeward build.

UrielAwakened

2017-09-14, 12:37 PM

I really don't think Barbarian is the way to go.

You can't concentrate on spells while raging or even cast them, so you're trying to play two separate classes together but at different times.

Gignere

2017-09-14, 01:26 PM

Maybe Lock 1 / EK 8 / Wizard 7

Stack AoA with Fireshield with HAM and Bladeward. Use a two hander. Close your eyes whenever you are not attacking to give opponents advantage.

UrielAwakened

2017-09-14, 01:34 PM

You really want full casting on this build. Those 5th and 6th level Armor of Agathys need to happen as soon as possible.

Sir cryosin

2017-09-14, 02:10 PM

Or you can be just a reaction mage by go warlock 2 for free at will mage armor and the spells AoA and hellish rebuke. Then finish in abjuration wizard. Use your action to cast blade ward and when you get hit cast hellish rebuke so they take fire and cold damage.

This gives me a cool idea for a enemy to trow at my players thanks.

Spiritchaser

2017-09-14, 02:15 PM

I really don't think Barbarian is the way to go.

You can't concentrate on spells while raging or even cast them, so you're trying to play two separate classes together but at different times.

The funny thing about bladelocks with AoA: they can be built such that casting While raging isn't needed. Before? Yes.

UrielAwakened

2017-09-14, 02:24 PM

The funny thing about bladelocks with AoA: they can be built such that casting While raging isn't needed. Before? Yes.

I don't know about OP but I wouldn't want to play anything that takes a few rounds of setup to work. A D&D fight is what, 3 rounds on average? And how often do you get to dictate the terms of combat?

Barbarian just seems really ham-fisted to make work.

Talionis

2017-09-14, 03:03 PM

The strongest combination is Abjurer Wizard 14+/Warlock 1+

Abjurer's Abjuration Ward allows you to reduce damage before it hits your Temporary Hit Points granted by Armor of Agathys (AoA). The Ward requires no action to use so it can be combined with other ways to reduce damage like resistances from the spell Stone Skin or the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge ability. The lack of requiring an action to use the reduction is very powerful. Additionally the Abjuration Ward recharges off spells you cast in this build anyway, like AoA (itself), Shield Spell, Counterspell, etc. Tacking this ability on a Full Caster Chasis makes Abjurer a very strong mechanically choice if you are solely focused on AoA.

Something else about this build is that it can quickly feel like a one trick pony. You'll be dedicating a lot of your casting spell slots to recharging your Abjuration Ward with spells like Shield on Defense. When you regain Wizard spell slots often you want to regain low level slots to cast Shield, this can create a very frustrating play style where you are casting the same spell over and over and eating up your reaction.

Abjurer 18 is a nice capstone because you can cast Shield for free. Casting Shield is a key to the build because it allows you to be hit and take no damage. You can cast shield in response and at least some of the hits you take will become misses that should still trigger AoA. Shield also is an abjuration spell so it will recharge your Ward.

I think you want as much AC as possible, if your enemy misses you and you do even a basic attack you do 1d8 more damage to them than they do to you. So spells like Mirror Image if you have high Dexterity make a lot of sense.

I think getting Mage Armor from an invocation is such a waste it lasts 8 hours anyway if you cast it out of a Wizard slot, that's usually enough and you'll get so few invocations get something else more useful. Also recasting it to refresh Ward is sometimes frowned upon.

Notice this is a slightly MAD build and it also might benefit from lots of different feats, so you might consider Warlock 1/Abjurer 19 to get the last ASI. Other 1 level dips could include Fighter for Combat Style and Armor and weapons. Armor is nice even Medium Armor, seriously don't worry you'll still get hit plenty, but if they swing and miss they basically have done nothing with that attack and you AoA is not depleted.

While I said 18 Wizard is a great break point, marrying yourself to that may cause issues and you may have more fun with say Rogue 5/Warlock 1/Abjurer Wizard 14... You'll get your last Abjurer ability and have 7th level spell slots and the flex level 1 slot granted by Warlock for casting Shield spell and you'll have Uncanny Dodge, Expertise and 3 levels of Sneak attack to add to cantrip attacks which is pretty good. Especially if you are also getting a Sentinal Attack with Sneak Attack damage or comboing it with Warcaster a reaction attack with Booming Blade and Sneak Attack.

Another option is 15 Abjurer Wizard, 2 Warlock, 3 Bard (Valor probably better than Lore in this one)... Interesting parts of this build is you can get either Cunning Words or Medium Armor, Shield and martial weapons. I think Valor Bard is better if you aren't increasing the number Inspiration Dice, then 3.5 off damage and eating up your reaction and having a limited number of uses, makes the static ability to greatly increase your AC and have access to weapons like Whip which can be great with Booming Blade and to a lesser degree Green Flame Blade, can make a very nice build that still gets access to 8th level Wizard spells and a ninth level spell slot, that can be used with AoA. Bard gets you access to healing spells that Wizard doesn't have on their list, like Cure Wounds, Healing Word, and Lesser Restoration. But two levels of Warlock grants you AoA and access to 2 first level spell slots for Shield spell and 2 Invocations, which one can be Agonizing Blast. 8/14/14/15/9/14. This build can even get Expertise so if you want to grapple you could get Expertise in Athletics... That combined with an static increase item like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or Belt of Storm Giant can still make this build a very good grappler.

Other Non-Abjurer Options

The best spell you can work with is Warding Bond, unfortunately its a second level cleric or SCAG Paladin spell and another character needs to cast it upon you, that character takes half your damage and you have resistance to everything. You can't double up resistances so you can't use this and Rage resistance for example.

How many levels of Warlock do you want? Assuming you can't pick up Armor of Agathys from Magic Initiate, which RAW I think you can't, but I'm not wholly sure (have seen arguments that say that some classes can basically add Magic Initiate Spells learned to their class lists because of the way their casting is worded, I'm fairly certain this isn't RAI). Then you need one level of Warlock, the second level gives you a second spells slot for first levels spells (Shield, you cast it a lot in this build) and two invocations. Personally, I don't see any invocations that help this build so get one that help your character in some other area (Cheese refilling the Ward aside, you'll be able to do similar with Alarm or other ritual without blowing your invocations). I'm very partial to Misty Visions (?) the illusion invocation especially paired with the illusion cantrip to add sound to visual only one requires concentration. But Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast can be your main source of damage. Its respectable damage and with Crossbow Expert Feat you can eliminate the penalty for firing into melee range. I also really like the Lightning Lure Cantrip in this build because it helps to bring enemies into melee range with you. Feats like Sentinel are also really a good idea to have ways to make you more sticky. What becomes an interesting conundrum with this build is that you may actually want to max Charisma first in a build like this because it provides your offense, so 8/16/12/13/8/16 with 27 point buy variant human might be a consideration. Its barely enough to cast most things and you have so many Wizard levels, but if you aren't choosing to cast spells that target or have saves, buffs etc then it can be acceptable. (This is the build focused on Eldritch Blast for offense and Lightning Lure as your attacks). The problem is making yourself sticky, but cantrips can go a long way with helping this, so having a decent Dex so that you can hit with Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade can also be your Offense. You need to accept your limits on Offense, mostly to Cantrips and using your response action to cast Shield. Weird considerations like Shield Master Feat might also be a consideration since you might have decent Dexterity and not draining your AoA in response to AoE damage attacks that don't generate an AoA response attack is nice. Sentinel/Warcaster/Booming Blade Combo is also a very good option.

Barbarian/Warlock is a fine build it is what it is but you really will only use AoA effectively when you rage and you only have so many rages in a day, so when you don't rage you often have to completely change the way you play and play more like a caster with Eldritch Blast.

Lore Bard can get any spell with Magical Secrets so it can get Warding Bond, AoA, Spirit Guardians, Thornwhip (as a Charisma spell) But big thing is as a reaction you can Use Cunning Words to reduce the incoming damage further. Unlike Abjuration Ward it requires your reaction and has limits, but Cunning Words recharges quickly and gets to be a decent sized reduction this pairs well with say a level of Dex Fighter to so you can get Heavy Armor Mastery to further get the damage reduction. Valor Bard is also a consideration since you get two attacks, but I think Lore has more synergy.

5 Rogue is a decent dip into Rogue to unlock Uncanny Dodge, this uses a reaction (so it can't pair with Cunning Words Bards), but it literally halfs damage you take, which works very well with another player casting Warding Bond on you or with you finding some other way to get resistance. The sneak attack dice aren't even lost if you use the melee cantrips to attack.

Paladins get Find Steed at level 5 and the Steed can have its own set of Armor of Agathys running with the same casting as yours. As you cast AoA with higher level slots this can be great even if its really hard to get others to attack your steed. SCAG Paladin also has Warding Bond on his spell list which might be really cool combo if you have a Ring of Spell Storing so that you can let someone else cast Warding Bond onto you.

Sorcerer can be a good class for AoA because its still SAD and Quickening the Casting of AoA can allow you to be sticky in a round and still have AoA up for combat. It also effectively gets Mage Armor for free which pairs well with high Dexterity. Enlarge can be an interesting spell if you are a grappling build. Potentially you can do a Dragon Sorcerer and add Charisma Damage to your Cold Damage to your AoA, but it should only be icing on a cake not a reason to build towards this.

Just don't multiclass too much. You need high level caster slots to make AoA worthwhile. At a minimum you'll want Warlock 9(?) to get Fifth level casting or you'll want to just 1 or 2 levels of Warlock maybe 3 levels of Warlock because that is also a good break point for Warlock, but absolutely no more unless you take Warlock all the way to 9. So something like Warlock 9+/Dex Fighter 1 (or 2 Fighter for Action Surge)/Rogue 5+. This build can be viable does a lot of things besides AoA, can be good at Rogue things and might get the extra ASI from Rogue to help round out a MAD character and you'll be fine attacking with Cantrips.

But weird builds like Paladin7/Warlock 2 or 3/Sorcerer 3+/Lore Bard 6+ allows you to get high level slots with no spells known to cast out of your highest level slots can be interesting... If your plan is to cast 8th level AoA and then 7th level in the next combat then gaining a bunch of low level spells and cantrips known can make for a very fun character. Warlock three can pick up a Charisma Thornwhip which is useful. Lore Bard can pick up Spirit Guardians (which rocks in a build like this where you want people to hit you.

Grappling is an mechanic that can work well with AoA and other spells like Fire Shield and Spirit Guardians. With a lot of that stuff going on making yourself sticky with simply grappling the and not letting them choose anyone but you to attack is a viable option. This works well with a Paladin who might have decent strength and a steed that might be able to drag opponents away from the main party. But the builds are all potentially MAD so getting expertise from Bard or Rogue and possibly boosting your Strength with Magic Items like Ogre Gauntlets, etc might be a good way to go. Just having an idea who you can grapple and who you can't can make grappling with Expertise in Athletics possible with even dumping Strength.

Spells that work well with Armor of Agathys
Find Steed
Spirit Guardians
Shield Spell
Counterspell
Fire Shield
Warding Bond -- if cast by someone else (with healing or lots of hit points) potentially on a ring of spell storing etc.
Mirror Image -- if you have a decent Dexterity to keep it around
Lightning Lure
Thornwhip
Eldritch Blast
Shocking Grasp
Booming Blade
Green-Flame Blade
Enlarge/Reduce -- Helps grappling
Enhance Ability -- for Grappling
Bladeward is generally a trap you hopefully have something better to do with your Action/Dodge maybe generally better

Feats
Shield Master
Warcaster
Resilient (Constitution)
Sentinel
Heavy Armor Mastery -- HAM is better than people give it credit for, thethe amount of damage dice isn't that large and reducing by 3 isn't nothing, I've moved away from the feat because I just generally want more ASI's in my builds

Closing Advice

I've mentioned a lot of different ideas and breakpoints. I've thought long and hard on it and as fun as AoA is you don't want to be a one trick pony. The direction you take the build is the direction you think you'll have the most fun. I think the strongest pure AoA build is going to focus on Abjuration Ward, but it won't necessarily be the most fun.

Uncanny Dodge is strong, but getting it losses you 5 levels that could've been caster levels. But Rogues are really fun in this edition so even Warlock 9+/Rogue5+ will be a really rewarding build.

Lore Bards do this really well. They can pick up so many spells off other lists with Magical Secrets. So SCAG Paladin 6/Lore Bard 14 makes for a really interesting build it can probably grapple well enough, can have Spirit Guardians, access to Thornwhip cantrip puling things closer to you and into your Spirit Guardians etc.

Notice I didn't find a ton of ways to get Extra Attacks into a build I liked so doing damage in melee is hard, but if you are happy with grappling and spells doing your damage or Cantrips you can have a really exciting attack strategy that's not average way of attacking things.

Layers of Defense are a thing, when you try to get hit even with decent AC you'll actually get hit. Your Ward will get pushed through, so will AoA. Personally again for like the third time I'll say get as high an AC as your build can... Don't drop your shield or start taking off armor. Its a layer of your defense and you are using up your AoA temp hit points every time your hit. If you have a high Dex then Mirror Image can be awesome for this build.

Also be open to AoA being just one combat style in your arsenal not your only style. This is why Warlock 9+/Barbarian X makes for a fun play style. You can cast Mirror Image and AoA and be out of spells to cast anyway (neither are concentration), so you Rage and hit as hard as your Barbarian can and have your resistances up. Shield Master Feat works well in this build because even with a modest Dex you'll get advantage on Dex saves and can avoid even more damage that might hit your AoA. But you won't be able to Rage all the time and so when you aren't Raging you Cast Eldritch Blast and play a different style of fight to protect your hit points.

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 10:29 AM

I actually just started playing this last session because my Warlock/Sorcerer died.

It is tons of fun.

I'm only level 7 so far but I went High Elf for an ability score spread of 8 Str/18 Dex/16 Con/16 Int/8 Wis/8 Cha. It gives you an ability save spread of -1/+4/+3/+3/+2/+2 with Wis and Cha scaling as your prof bonus does and an acceptably balanced AC of 17. So far I'm Warlock 2/Wizard 5, likely will scale up to Wizard 18 by end game.

The synergies are endless.

I have as much effective HP as my Barbarian ally of the same level, with more across an adventure once you factor in the extra Arcane Ward recovery I get for free.
High Dex lets you use Green Flame Blade off of daggers or short swords for DPR that's comparable to Eldritch Blast spam (1d6+2d8+7 across two creatures at my level, and scaling with an extra 2d8 per tier).
Blade Ward gives you the same resistances that a Barbarian would have if your goal is to soak damage and buy time. Stone Skin in a few levels will be even better, especially since if your Arcane Ward soaks the entire damage you don't need to make a Concentration check.
Invocations make this build another level of cool. Everyone knows about Mage Armor spam to refill your Arcane Ward between combats, but Devil's Sight really makes this build something else. Cast Darkness on your weapon and then wade into combat. Advantage on every attack, disadvantage on every attack against you unless the creature has blindsense or tremorsense or something else that beats magical darkness.
Also you're still a wizard. Other than one use of your highest spell slot between short rests, you have the rest of your spells to do wizard things. At higher levels you can counterspell or dispel anything and your balanced saves mean that your advantage on saves mean you will almost always pass.

Melee can't touch you. Ranged can't see you to hit you. Spells can't one-up you.

This build is fantastic.

KorvinStarmast

2017-10-31, 10:51 AM

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 11:03 AM

Yep. Warlock saves are also better.

Vaz

2017-10-31, 12:31 PM

Why are you wanting a high AC with AoA? The point of it is to punish things that hit you. Getting rid of needless attacks like with bonus action Disengage or Sanctuary helps so that it lasts longer against the target you want it to.

Sentinel, Getoverhereabilities, tripping, resist damage, heavy armour mastery, ability to cast multiple/day, and ways of encouraging enemies to attack you with melee attacks such as fast movement.

Tabaxi with Pal or fighter 2-3/Warlock 11/Rogue X gets a ton of off turn damage while not taking much with a combination of resist damage, tunnel fighter sneak attack. Blade Pact for Smite damage and Curse damage.

Tabaxi speed gets you bulk movement to be the most annoying place. Feats to consider- Sentinel, HA Mastery, Mobile

KorvinStarmast

2017-10-31, 12:34 PM

Vaz:
Not being hit is also fine. Nobody, no matter the build, has infinite hit points.

Aett_Thorn

2017-10-31, 12:38 PM

Yep. Warlock saves are also better.

Uhhh...but multiclassing rules require that you have a 13 Cha when MCing OUT of Warlock as well. Or does your table not care about that?

Vaz

2017-10-31, 12:49 PM

Vaz:
Not being hit is also fine. Nobody, no matter the build, has infinite hit points.
No, k can underatand that, but a Warlock has a potential +150 dealing the same back in damage out of 6 spell slots.

Havi g a High AC leads me to think that you'll end up getting AoE'd or enemies running away to go after less spiky targets: hence tunnel fighter and rogue to up your damage.

The counter to high AC has been to hit where it is weak: 3,5 had touch saves, 5e has AoE's: avoiding that to hit roll.

Avoiding pointless damage: Hexblade's 10th ability can come in gold here, as can some mediocre AC to make pointless attacks drop. Hexblade has Shield which you can use in absolute need when AoA drops.

Warlock 11 has 1/LR investiture of stone for resist nonmagical also.

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 12:54 PM

Uhhh...but multiclassing rules require that you have a 13 Cha when MCing OUT of Warlock as well. Or does your table not care about that?

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works.

..well damn. It is. Okay I've gotta lose a few points in Con. Or maybe Dex. I'll dwell on it.

Why are you wanting a high AC with AoA? The point of it is to punish things that hit you. Getting rid of needless attacks like with bonus action Disengage or Sanctuary helps so that it lasts longer against the target you want it to.

You don't want everything to hit you. You want to pick and choose what hits you. Kobolds hitting you is fine. Storm giants less so. Having a high AC gives you more control over what does and doesn't hit you. This is the most effective way to build it.

KorvinStarmast

2017-10-31, 12:57 PM

To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one, as shown in the Multiclassing Prerequisites table. I would guess that to be the case. RP wise, it sorta works. Let me see if I can sell this.

My character's name is Sphygmomenometera, High elf.

High Elf for an ability score spread of 8 Str/18 Dex/16 Con/16 Int/8 Wis/8 Cha.

I have studied deeply and am very smart, but am not as common sensical as some of my classmates here at mage school. I trip over an old scroll of lore, about the nameless power in the starless realm of the outerplanes (Great Old One) and I am utterly fascinated. I seek nothing but more knowledge of this incredible being/power in all of my spare time, to the detriment of my studies. And one night in my fevered dreams I am awake-but-asleep in a dark place within a spheroid of dimly winking stars. I only notice the shape I am confronting as a great shadow by how it blots out the winking stars in one sector of this space. It reaches something out toward me, and I don't recoil. I accept this tendril of thought, this tendril of pure madness. My awareness reels, and I am lost.

I wander through portals and passages of alternate reality. As if in a dream, I find myself along side a small platoon of alien beings, fighting for our survival on rugged terrain with a dark, blood red sky overhanging us. We seek the pale green portal just over the rise, but the imps and unnameable abominations who plague us and tear at our flesh try to obstruct our passage. I lash out with my rage and fear, now and then striking these vermin with eldritch balls of energy, or with the dagger in my hand. My comrades are fewer now, I am bleeding, and I am poisoned, sick, yet still I lash out, fighting for my life, fighting for my very soul. Two of us make it through the green portal, all of the others are lost.

I awaken screaming, bleeding from a dozen cuts, and puking up green bile.

After a week in the infirmary, I am pronounced "fit but troubled" by the druids, none of whom are certain from whence came my wounds, nor my madness. In my troubled healing, they tell me that I muttered alien sounds in no language they know.

I return to my studies.
I excel.
And I keep my dark secret.

The Great Old One touched me, and for all of the pain and trouble it caused me, I love it.

More secrets will I learn, in time, but I am an elf. I am patient.
I will arm myself with Arcane magic so that when I next face such a trial, I'll have a few surprises of my own.

Dudewithknives

2017-10-31, 01:01 PM

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works.

..well damn. It is. Okay I've gotta lose a few points in Con.

You don't want everything to hit you. You want to pick and choose what hits you. Kobolds hitting you is fine. Storm giants less so. Having a high AC gives you more control over what does and doesn't hit you. This is the most effective way to build it.

he is correct about the multi classing issue, you do have to have the 13 in a stat to leave a class as well as to enter one.

Also, High AC is great, if you can choose when to use it and when not to. So far i have not been able to find any rules one way or another about if you can choose to use your armor bonus or not.

Ex. You are wearing full plate and have a shield, so your AC is high normally.
Enemy shoots an arrow at you, you use full AC because your abilities do not really help against ranged attacks, but if a different enemy tries to hit you with a melee weapon can you simply choose to not use the armor bonus, or what about the shield?

I can understand if you used unarmored defense like with a monk or a barbarian because you could just choose not to use those, but can you really choose not to use the AC from full plate?

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 01:04 PM

he is correct about the multi classing issue, you do have to have the 13 in a stat to leave a class as well as to enter one.

Also, High AC is great, if you can choose when to use it and when not to. So far i have not been able to find any rules one way or another about if you can choose to use your armor bonus or not.

Ex. You are wearing full plate and have a shield, so your AC is high normally.
Enemy shoots an arrow at you, you use full AC because your abilities do not really help against ranged attacks, but if a different enemy tries to hit you with a melee weapon can you simply choose to not use the armor bonus, or what about the shield?

I can understand if you used unarmored defense like with a monk or a barbarian because you could just choose not to use those, but can you really choose not to use the AC from full plate?

No idea. It makes sense to me that you can let yourself be hit if you want. At the very least you could give an enemy advantage to hit you I would think.

If not, a 16 AC and the ability to Shield is a fairly good middle-ground for being hit when you want, and not hit when you don't want.

Eragon123

2017-10-31, 01:05 PM

If you go valor bard 14 you can do blade ward and then swing your sword and upcast AoA far past what warlocks can.

I freaking hate bards sometimes.

Dudewithknives

2017-10-31, 01:10 PM

If you go valor bard 14 you can do blade ward and then swing your sword and upcast AoA far past what warlocks can.

I freaking hate bards sometimes.

That is a good point.

Depending on how School of Swords ended up, might could go that way.

Vaz

2017-10-31, 01:14 PM

I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works.

You don't want everything to hit you. You want to pick and choose what hits you. Kobolds hitting you is fine. Storm giants less so. Having a high AC gives you more control over what does and doesn't hit you. This is the most effective way to build it.

A storm giant is usually hitting you anyway, so cast Blade Ward and reduce your damage taken. AC has diminishing returns. AoA's benefit isn't the Temp HP, it's the damage in return. I don't think that tanking your AC to 10-11 is worth it, but I don't improving your AC should be your prime focusimho - Shield, Shield Spell, and Chainmail is AC23 - 2/3 Storm Giant attacks (ave 13 damage with Resist+HAM) gives you a decent chance of taking 4 attacks from a SG before your HP is impacted, dealing 75 damage.

Going to Abj 18 for At will shield feels less worth it. Sure you stayalive, but why are you wasting a spell slot on AoA at that stage? Pick up Fiend Warlock 1 and Bag of rats away.

Aett_Thorn

2017-10-31, 01:14 PM

That is a good point.

Depending on how School of Swords ended up, might could go that way.

A Valor Bard who uses their magical secrets to pick up Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys would be truly spectacular.

Eragon123

2017-10-31, 01:17 PM

Now this isn't RAW but there was a thread on home-brew rules and here's some of mine.

Warlocks
-New Invocation "Pact Master's Mantel"
Prerequistite: LV4 Pact of the Blade
When you summon your sword you may also summon armor. This armor can be any armor on the equipment page in the players handbook except for shield. You are considered proficient in this armor if you meet the other prerequisites for the armor.
-Edited Invocation "Thirsting Blade"
Prerequisite: LV6 Pact of the Blade
You may make an extra attack with your pact weapon on your turn when you take the Attack action. Alternatively, if you cast a spell you may use a bonus action to make a melee attack. (Kinda strong but its been working out ok for us and doesn't seem TOO strong. At first we had it at just cantrips but the DM changed it to spells to make up for the lack of spells Warlocks have.)

Using these rules I made a single classed Fey Blade Lock. AC of 18 and uses a great sword. I usually try and get AoA up before combat and I do have heavy armor mastery (which scales with proficiency). It feels awesome to take hits with blade ward up and reduce so much damage and to dish so much out. I recently had a zombie (home-brewed to be higher level) criteria for 19 damage. Which I reduced to 7 damage. My AoA was 5th level and hit the zombie for 25 damage.

Eragon123

2017-10-31, 01:19 PM

A Valor Bard who uses their magical secrets to pick up Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys would be truly spectacular.

And be a teifling for hellish rebuke as a racial ability.

Dudewithknives

2017-10-31, 01:19 PM

A Valor Bard who uses their magical secrets to pick up Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys would be truly spectacular.

Yeah, bards are just so overwhelmingly useful. They can do it all. The only real down side is lack of magical firepower before level 6.

Vicious Mockery is amazing and has saved the lives of people in our group MANY times, but it is not going to be killing anyone any time soon.

Eragon123

2017-10-31, 01:23 PM

A storm giant is usually hitting you anyway, so cast Blade Ward and reduce your damage taken. AC has diminishing returns. AoA's benefit isn't the Temp HP, it's the damage in return. I don't think that tanking your AC to 10-11 is worth it, but I don't improving your AC should be your prime focusimho - Shield, Shield Spell, and Chainmail is AC23 - 2/3 Storm Giant attacks (ave 13 damage with Resist+HAM) gives you a decent chance of taking 4 attacks from a SG before your HP is impacted, dealing 75 damage.

Going to Abj 18 for At will shield feels less worth it. Sure you stayalive, but why are you wasting a spell slot on AoA at that stage? Pick up Fiend Warlock 1 and Bag of rats away.

Fiend Warlocks Temp HP does not stack with AoA. I think you know that but I'm still confused by your comment.

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 01:27 PM

If anyone's curious I retooled as 8/14/15/16/8/13 with Hexblade for Medium Armor and shield proficiency. Taking resilience for added Con proficiency to bring me to an even 16 in Con.

I don't foresee it being much of a difference in combat. GFB is slightly less accurate and damaging but this build was never about that anyway. I'll increase Int as I go.

Vaz

2017-10-31, 01:30 PM

And be a teifling for hellish rebuke as a racial ability.

Nah, Levistus Tiefling for free l2 AoA and Darkness. Picm up Warlock 2 for Devil's Sight. Be a Cultist of Dispater (**** the lore yo) and get to vexing step or juiblex.

KorvinStarmast

2017-10-31, 01:34 PM

Eragon123

2017-10-31, 01:36 PM

UrielAwakened

2017-10-31, 01:40 PM

Feel free to use as much or as little of my proposed back story as amuses you.

:)

So my guy is actually an alternate dimension version of my first character but you aren't super far-off from my actual backstory.

His dad found a great secret in a mysterious dungeon that we've spent the entire campaign exploring (A Mega Dungeon of sorts) and then disappeared. He believes it's a secret related to the Void Dragon, a being he believes he is destined to bring into this world to devour all of civilization that he thinks reached out to him while he was stargazing (he's an accomplished astronomer).

Alternate-dimension version showed up almost immediately after the first version died, and now he postulates that this timeline must always have some incarnation of him in it to exist. Further reinforcing his god complex.

Vaz

2017-10-31, 01:58 PM

Fiend Warlocks Temp HP does not stack with AoA. I think you know that but I'm still confused by your comment.

Thats the point: if all you are doing is building AoA into your build to stay alive more, you are wasting resources on AoA. a 5th level spell slot, for 25 Temp HP isn't a gold trade. It is also questionable if you actually get hit with Arcane Ward up.

Avonar

2017-10-31, 02:16 PM

The Fiend patron gives you access to the Fire Shield spell, throw that up with Armor of Agathys and that's 20THP (Need level 4 spells) with enemies taking 2d8+20 upon hitting you.

Dalebert

2017-10-31, 11:23 PM

Get a teammate to cast Warding Bond. That's a really underrated spell. Now if you also cast Blade Ward you're down to 1/4th dmg and thus x4 dmg absorbed before ending.

Even better, cast it on someone else. You need a Ring of Spell Storing. It's very viable to get one if you're playing AL but I imagine harder in a homebrew. Have an undead minion cast it. A wight seems the ideal candidate but even a skeleton will do.

Malifice

2017-10-31, 11:51 PM

Get a teammate to cast Warding Bond.

I was just going to say this.

I get great mileage out of AoA plus Warding Bond plus HAM (plate). Im looking at Flames of Phelgethos as well (Greenflame blade means I trigger the +1d4 return damage most rounds).

5th level at present.

16 points of damage, becomes 13 points (HAM) becomes 6 points (Warding bond). This comes off your X temp HP and your enemy takes X+1d4 damage in return. Hit them with Hellish rebuke for more ****s and giggles.

Its hillarious with creatures with multiattack.

Only down side is when the half damage goes to our cleric it forces him into a Con save for bless.

Eragon123

2017-11-01, 01:50 AM

Get a teammate to cast Warding Bond. That's a really underrated spell. Now if you also cast Blade Ward you're down to 1/4th dmg and thus x4 dmg absorbed before ending.

Resistances don’t stack.

Vaz

2017-11-01, 02:17 AM

Am I the only one who notices Malifice's '#metoo' tendency? Sees an idea, talks about how good that idea is and how well it works in a game he is currently playing, only to have the next post provide rules quotes preventing what he says from a rudimentary rules check?

😂

For reference pg197 phb.

Malifice

2017-11-01, 02:26 AM

Vaz

2017-11-01, 02:28 AM

I've giventhepage reference, RTFM.

Malifice

2017-11-01, 02:29 AM

I've giventhepage reference, RTFM.

Im away from my book at present.

Whats the rule I got wrong?

Vaz

2017-11-01, 02:33 AM

I mean, there's literally a post above mine explaining it. I just posted the source page.

Malifice

2017-11-01, 02:46 AM

I mean, there's literally a post above mine explaining it. I just posted the source page.

Oh I see. You're not very good with maths. Check again.

Take 16 points of damage. Reduce by 3 for HAM. Then halve for Warding Bond (rounding down) = 6 points of damage.

Im not halving twice, nor am I reducing by HAM after halving.

What rule am I getting wrong again?

Vaz

2017-11-01, 02:50 AM

lperkins2

2017-11-01, 03:09 AM

I'm using AoA in a game currently, although it isn't really shining yet (next level before I get metamagic). Warlock/sorcerer is a great choice, since it lets you quicken your actual spell you want to cast in a round, and still toss up blade ward. Pact of the Tome for the druid's magic stick, then either booming blade 2 times if there are multiple targets, or booming blade + blade ward if the first attack hits the only available target. For added fun, gain thunderous smite somehow (I went stone sorcerer, so have it from that). On hit, target makes a str save or goes flying. If they choose to close to melee with you, they soak extra damage. If they hit you, they take hitback damage. Only shortcoming is you can't both thunderous smite and blade ward in the same round, unless you missed your smite the previous round. Also, it takes your concentration slot, but that's not a big deal, since in melee you don't usually want long term concentration going anyway.

Malifice

2017-11-01, 03:10 AM

Ah, gotcha. Tbh, i really didn't bother to check your maths because I don't care that much, just saw you 'metooing' on a post talking about stacking resists, and saw the opportunity to have a laugh at your expense. Life goes on.

I see.

So you had a go at me not for your own poor maths, or lack of comprehension, but just general laziness.

Fits the profile.

Vaz

2017-11-01, 04:53 AM

Whoa whoa, don't get me wrong, I'm not lazy. Just disinterested.

But yes, Warding Bond does well enough to provide Resistance to damage.

Arial Black

2017-11-01, 10:42 PM

First, Bar 1.

Then, War 1-5.

Then Bar 2 (at 7th)(3 and 4 later), while getting War 9.

After Bar 4/War 9, do as you please.

For War, Fiend patron (because your THP will run out while you are still raging and Dark One's Blessing gives you more at semi-regular intervals during a combat; also gives fire shield/fireball) and Blade Pact (for Extra Attack and later Lifedrinker).

For Bar, Berserker.

Unarmoured, you have a bit of control over your AC because you can toggle Reckless Attack on or off. With your slots you have a long-lasting hex and maybe another long-lasting spell, plus two slots you can use. AoA lasts an hour so it needn't use up your first combat action. Just cast it pre-combat, and on round 1 cast a pre-asskicking fireball, use your bonus action to Rage (Frenzy?) and move adjacent to some baddies who you hope will hit you and take cold damage, or miss and you can unload with your magic pact blade greatsword and GWM.

One other thing to say about this build: it is enormous fun! :smallsmile:

Malifice

2017-11-02, 01:33 AM

Lombra

2017-11-02, 03:20 AM

Fighter 1/ bearbarian 3/ warlock x

Bear resistance, heavy armor master, profit.

Can't remember if the reduction applies before or after the resistance to damage.

Vaz

2017-11-02, 03:33 AM

Fighter 1/ bearbarian 3/ warlock x

Bear resistance, heavy armor master, profit.

Can't remember if the reduction applies before or after the resistance to damage.

Bodmas says after.

Eragon123

2017-11-02, 10:54 AM

Bodmas says after.

I freaking wish. [emphasis mine]
PHB 197
"Resistance and Vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage."

Vaz

2017-11-02, 12:13 PM

I freaking wish. [emphasis mine]
PHB 197
"Resistance and Vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage."

Urgh. I can kinda see why. No adding str bonus to a resisted hit.

Eragon123

2017-11-02, 12:17 PM

Urgh. I can kinda see why. No adding str bonus to a resisted hit.

Also if you halved then reduced, then all reduction would be doubled in value.

Vaz

2017-11-02, 12:23 PM

Also if you halved then reduced, then all reduction would be doubled in value.
Well, no, the reduction simply takes full effect. You don't reduce damage by 6 with HAM+Resist. You'd still reduce damage by 3 after the Resist. It's comparatively doubled to resist first but that's different.

Eragon123

2017-11-02, 12:36 PM

Well, no...

Ok. I'm listening

It's comparatively doubled to resist first...

You admit my point.

but that's different.

Freaking how?!

Lets do some math.

We have HAM and Blade ward up and the enemy is attacking us with a non magical weapon.

They do 'Y' damage. And lets call the reduction from HAM 'R', I know this is a constant but it illustrates my point a bit more intuitively.

Lets call the Alternative "X1" and the Raw as "X2"

Alternative

Y/2-R=X1
Y=2(X1+R)

RAW
(Y-R)/2=X2
Y=2X2+R

2(X1+R)=2X2+R
2X1+2R=2X2+R
2X1+R=2X2
X1+R/2=X2

The alternative method has double the reduction from HAM as RAW does.

EDIT.

I guess it could be argued that you don't benefit from double the reduction just 1.5 of the reduction. But still.
EX
Y=25
RAW
25-3=22
22/2=11

Alternative
25/2=12.5 (we always round down in DnD unless otherwise specified but let's leave it at a half for now)
12.5-3=9.5

11-9.5=1.5 which is half of 3.

And let's say the damage dealt was even

26-3=23
23/2=11.5

26/2=13
13-3=10

11.5-10=1.5 which is half of 3.

So I'll admit I was wrong in that it's a straight double. But my point that the damage reduced vales wouldn't be the REAL exact values is still true.

UrielAwakened

2017-11-02, 12:47 PM

On Tuesday I Fireballed myself to kill a bunch of stuff that crowded around me and I took zero actual health damage.

This build is fantastic.

Eragon123

2017-11-02, 01:04 PM

On Tuesday I Fireballed myself to kill a bunch of stuff that crowded around me and I took zero actual health damage.

This build is fantastic.

Using AoA? I usually hate that because its hard to get resistance to fire damage as a warlock and it eats so much of your other spell.

Not to say it can't be effective but I'd feel like my limited resources were fighting each other.