Quick Sneak Attack question

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, just wanted to double check I've been doing sneak attack right as my DM seems to think that I'm overpowered and wanted me to find out (while the Wildshape Druid is very average... :smallmad:)

If I am hiding (using HiPS from Shadowdancer) and I full attack an enemy, do all my attacks do sneak attack damage, or only the first?

e.g.
Round one: I draw my weapons (TWF), hide and approach the enemies who do not spot me.
Round two: I full attack the enemy next to me and hit with both attacks.
What damage should attack 1 and attack 2 do? Should they both include Sneak Attack damage?

Thanks!

[Deox]

An attack is eligible for sneak attack any time the target is denied their dexterity bonus to AC or when flanking the target.

All attacks in a round (assuming they all meet the criteria) are eligible.

This should belong in the Simple RAW thread.

[Shnigda]

You're right, my bad. Thanks for the response though!

[Twurps]

An attack is eligible for sneak attack any time the target is denied their dexterity bonus to AC or when flanking the target.

All attacks in a round (assuming they all meet the criteria) are eligible.

This should belong in the Simple RAW thread.

So what you're saying is: When it qualifies, it qualifies. True as that may be, I don't think it is a helpfull answer to the question.

As far as I know, making an attack nullifies your 'hidden' status, and therefore only the first attack qualifies for sneak attack damage in the OP's example. If only I could find the rules quote on it...

[Aleolus]

Mechanically speaking, any attack that is either delivered while flanking or is made against an opponent who is not receiving their Dex bonus to AC gains sneak attack. As such, if your DM asks you this again, just ask him "Does he have his dex to AC against either of my attacks?"

[Yuki Akuma]

If you can somehow remain hidden between the first and second attacks, both would be Sneak Attacks. That said, it is really hard to stay hidden after hitting someone in melee range.

You might want to pick up some form of Greater Invisibility.

HiPS is better for sniping than it is for shanking.

[Zombimode]

Or, you know, a flanking buddy. Getting sneak attack for all attacks on a full attack is trivially easy to achieve.

[Eladrinblade]

You can hide while attacking, but at a -20 penalty.

[Psyren]

SRD:


It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

HiPS allows you to stay hidden even while being observed, so you're good there. The only question then is, would you stay hidden with a -20 penalty to hide? If so, all your attacks are sneak attacks. If not, only the first one is.

[Chronos]

You could also take your first attack, reveal yourself, and then take a five-foot step to go back into hiding before your second attack, assuming you started off in attack position.

[Twurps]

You could also take your first attack, reveal yourself, and then take a five-foot step to go back into hiding before your second attack, assuming you started off in attack position.

With the exeption of sniping, hiding is a move action. (Or to be exact: Hiding isn't an action, but is done as part of a move action). So hiding after a 5ft step is not an option.

[Psyren]

With the exeption of sniping, hiding is a move action. (Or to be exact: Hiding isn't an action, but is done as part of a move action). So hiding after a 5ft step is not an option.

Actually it says "as part of movement." A 5-foot step is movement, even though it's not a move action, so you can hide during a 5-foot step just fine.

In addition, all attacking does is give you a -20 Hide. If your Hide is so high that -20 doesn't reveal you, you never actually stopped hiding in the first place.

[Beheld]

Actually, literally none of the responses actually answer the question, because none of them can, because to answer we have to get into the very bad and completely unimplementable surprise rules.

Because the rules for Surprise say:

If one party know about the other party, and the other party is ignorant, then the first party gets a surprise round, and then you roll init, and then act in normal terms.

But of course, then that becomes complete nonsense once you use a surprise round action to not reveal yourself.

After all, you use a surprise round to move into position and then what?

Well if you roll initiative, and then act as normal, the enemy beats you in init, and then gets to take a full round action but he doesn't even know you exist. But then after that full round action he is no longer flat-footed. Which makes no sense and is really dumb.

But then, if you say "well obviously init doesn't start if you don't reveal yourself" then you get infinite surprise rounds before they get to take an action. Which means that you can cast any spell without a verbal component or use any SLA, so long as it doesn't reveal your existence.

Neither of those are workable rules.

So far as this involves you, it means that after you take your standard action from the surprise round to attack, you roll init, and then if you win init, they are still flat-footed for your subsequent full attack, but if the win init, then they won't be.

On the other hand, if you use your surprise round to say, get within 30ft to activate SA, then your DM suddenly has to deal with the surprise rules making no sense and give you a ruling.

[Eladrinblade]

With the exeption of sniping, hiding is a move action.

Other way around, only hiding while sniping requires a move action.

[Shnigda]

So basically, only the first attack of a round can have sneak attack applied to it (assuming attacking from hidden and no flanking) unless your hide check after -20 is greater than their spot check?

That seems dumb... I think sneak attack should apply to all uninterrupted, consecutive attacks in a round (ie attacks you make in a row without doing anything in between)
Otherwise, what's the point of TWF on a rogue!!?

[Troacctid]

That's not entirely accurate. An enemy who has not acted yet in the current combat, for example, will remain flat-footed until their first turn in the initiative count, so if you go first, or if they're surprised, all your attacks against them will be sneak attacks. If you have total concealment against an enemy without having to hide--for example, if you're in complete darkness against a target without darkvision--all your attacks against them will be sneak attacks. And of course, if you're flanking an enemy, all your attacks against them will be sneak attacks.

[Beheld]

So basically, only the first attack of a round can have sneak attack applied to it (assuming attacking from hidden and no flanking) unless your hide check after -20 is greater than their spot check?

That seems dumb... I think sneak attack should apply to all uninterrupted, consecutive attacks in a round (ie attacks you make in a row without doing anything in between)
Otherwise, what's the point of TWF on a rogue!!?

The main thing is to get them flat-footed, and by at least some interpretations/houserules you can get a full attack against a flat footed opponent when they don't know you are there.

Aside from that, you probably want to start getting flat-footed from something else, like Blink spell/Ring of Blink/Greater Invis

[Douglas]

So basically, only the first attack of a round can have sneak attack applied to it (assuming attacking from hidden and no flanking) unless your hide check after -20 is greater than their spot check?

That seems dumb... I think sneak attack should apply to all uninterrupted, consecutive attacks in a round (ie attacks you make in a row without doing anything in between)
Otherwise, what's the point of TWF on a rogue!!?
Sneak attack does apply to all uninterrupted consecutive attacks in a round - provided that your means of qualifying for them is something other than "he doesn't know I'm there". There are lots of ways to qualify for sneak attack, pick a different one and use it. Easiest, assuming you're fighting in a group, is to flank with someone.

[Psyren]

So basically, only the first attack of a round can have sneak attack applied to it (assuming attacking from hidden and no flanking) unless your hide check after -20 is greater than their spot check?

That seems dumb... I think sneak attack should apply to all uninterrupted, consecutive attacks in a round (ie attacks you make in a row without doing anything in between)
Otherwise, what's the point of TWF on a rogue!!?

1) To flank with - flanking doesn't care if they can see you :smalltongue:
2) There are plenty of ways in both 3.5 and PF to deny their dex for multiple attacks. The most common one is Greater Invisibility (which you can UMD) but you can also pull it off without spells if you're clever.

[Beheld]

Sneak attack does apply to all uninterrupted consecutive attacks in a round - provided that your means of qualifying for them is something other than "he doesn't know I'm there". There are lots of ways to qualify for sneak attack, pick a different one and use it. Easiest, assuming you're fighting in a group, is to flank with someone.

If he doesn't know you are there because he is flat footed or you are invisible, then your can SA with every attack.

[Keld Denar]

Even if the enemy knows you are there after the first attack, they still haven't acted in the round so they are flat footed and denied their dex bonus. If they are denied their dex, you get SA.

The only ways to not be denied your dex that I know of are Uncanny Dodge or Foresight. One is a 9th level spell, so not that common. The second is the domain of other rogues and barbarians.

[Eladrinblade]

What's not immediately clear to me is if you make your hide check at -20....does that only apply for that one attack or for the whole round? Would you have to make a hide check for each attack in a full-attack?

[Psyren]

What's not immediately clear to me is if you make your hide check at -20....does that only apply for that one attack or for the whole round? Would you have to make a hide check for each attack in a full-attack?

You're using the same Hide result that let you be hidden with respect to your target to begin with. They already had their chance to notice you (and presumably failed, or else you wouldn't be hidden.). Then once you attack, the massive -20 penalty gets applied, but if you're just that good at being hidden, they can't tell where the attacks are coming from (even if you're right next to them.)

[FocusWolf413]

According to the surprise round/starting combat rules, people are flat footed until they take their turn. Going on that rule, in the games I run/play, the enemy is flatfooted against the rogue for the entire full attack in which the rogue reveals himself, and will be until the enemy's turn.

[Andezzar]

If you can somehow remain hidden between the first and second attacks, both would be Sneak Attacks. That said, it is really hard to stay hidden after hitting someone in melee range.

You might want to pick up some form of Greater Invisibility.

HiPS is better for sniping than it is for shanking.Actually it isn't. Sniping carries the same penalty (-20) as remaining hidden during an attack. On top of that sniping only allows you to hide after attacking. You could argue that someone could ready an action to attack the sniper when he is attacking.

Getting some form of invisibility is still a good idea, especially since it augments your hide check by 20 or 40.


According to the surprise round/starting combat rules, people are flat footed until they take their turn. Going on that rule, in the games I run/play, the enemy is flatfooted against the rogue for the entire full attack in which the rogue reveals himself, and will be until the enemy's turn.The beginning of the statement is true, but the rest most likely isn't. During the surprise "round" you only get one standard or move action. So you most likely can't make a full attack (charging with pounce would be an exception)