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Mr. Mask
2016-01-08, 07:03 PM
I was wondering about mermaid biology and how they might spend time on land. You could just have them turned human, or otherwise solve all their problems with a high magic solution. But that isn't very interesting. So, I was wondering if anyone has ideas for low magic solutions to make mermaids able to do stuff on land (not necessarily very well).

Questions that come to mind, are: How do they move around? How do they keep their bodies from drying out? What do they do when they encounter fresh water (which they should react to badly)? How long can they stay away from water? Does dry land have any negative effects on their magic, if they have any? Can they fight or defend themselves on land? How do they do so, if so?

Bobbybobby99
2016-01-08, 07:21 PM
You have a large, watertight half-sphere, filled with water. Make it primarily made out of titanium, or mithral, depending on the type of story. Have glass 'windows' near the top, and at eye level, with a 'chair' so they don't have to swim all the time. To the sides, have bicycle like handles, moved using hands, and a tail glove for something similar on the floor. Have three wheels, and 'handlebars' connected to the mermaid head. Enjoy your extra-light, moderately slow water tricycle.

goto124
2016-01-08, 08:19 PM
How do mermaids breath anyway? Do they use their lungs or gills? What?

Geddy2112
2016-01-08, 08:55 PM
I do actually have a degree in marine biology, but even then it is speculation on a magical creature on what I am about to say.

I would say mermaids are marine mammals/reptiles with gills or some other way to breathe under water. They are not dependent on a fish slime coat and won't dry out on land, either because of scales or mammal like skin, perhaps both. I figure they would be similar to pinnipeds(seals, sea lions, walrus) out of water. Seals move the slowest,but they are capable of moving around on land, while walruses move a bit faster and sea lions can almost slow run. Certainly they are much faster in water, but they get around.Look up any youtube clip of sea lions and seals on land.

These animals can stay out of water indefinitely, but they don't really have the speed to catch land creatures. A merfolk might be able to use a bow or net, or fishing gear but they won't be running down anything. in the water, a merfolk could probably swim as fast as a fish and then spear them or something. Many pinnipeds do spend a lot of time out of the water for various reasons, usually only going in to fish or travel. Since these animals(and merfolk) are adapted to marine conditions, they have probably developed a way to deal with salt. Marine mammals have incredibly developed kidneys to excrete excess salt, while penguins, migratory seabirds, and the marine iguana will excrete salt through a gland near their eye. Merfolk would have one or both of these abilities.

In freshwater, they won't die, but they would probably be very unhappy as it would be hard on their skin and bodies, but I doubt it would be lethal. However, there is plenty of precedent of marine creatures going into freshwater and back-bull sharks, salmon, eels, and many species in the amazon delta are capable of changing from a marine to freshwater environment. It is not easy, and takes time to adapt, but is not lethal. Likewise their magic will work fine,unless it is water based and needs water. Obviously summoning a shark in a desert won't work, nor will creating a whirlpool work in a forest.

Their tails are capable of land movement and standing them upright. They have arms and can fight/use weapons/cast spells. If they have never been on land it might take a bit of time to adjust, but any merfolk of reasonable age in a land/sea environment(not deep sea merfolk) should be adjusted to gravity, the density difference and the like.

At least in pathfinder and D&D, merfolk are stated to be capable of living on land, although with difficulty and they do prefer water.

goto124
2016-01-08, 09:05 PM
Dolphins, whales, seals, etc are marine mammals. They technically don't breathe underwater, they're just able to hold their breaths really well. We could say mermaids work like that as well.

(Why do mermaids have scaled tails anyway? Why not dolphin tails?)

Mermaids lying on the beach next to seals and penguins should be a regular occurrence.

Would mermaid spells rely on verbal components? Because speaking doesn't seem terribly useful when underwater.

Geddy2112
2016-01-08, 09:19 PM
Dolphins, whales, seals, etc are marine mammals. They technically don't breathe underwater, they're just able to hold their breaths really well. We could say mermaids work like that as well.

(Why do mermaids have scaled tails anyway? Why not dolphin tails?)

Mermaids lying on the beach next to seals and penguins should be a regular occurrence.

Would mermaid spells rely on verbal components? Because speaking doesn't seem terribly useful when underwater.

For a more coastal style mermaid, having the need to breathe air could work. You won't have any under the sea style or deep merfolk kingdoms that way. There is no reason they can't have tails without scales, they are just commonly depicted that way. Indeed, I mean, that is how the mermaid legend began was sailors seeing seals/sea lions/manatees so it makes sense they would be around other sea creatures, particularly druids or maybe they herd said creatures.

All marine mammals can produce verbal sound and more or less communicate, and plenty do it underwater. Whales can sing to each other underwater for miles-sound travels faster and further in water, so verbal components would totally be a thing. They might seem different than the classic ones we are used to, but verbal nonetheless.

Nifft
2016-01-08, 11:08 PM
Mermaids aren't half-fish, since fish are dumb, and low on the evolutionary totem pole, and can't walk around on land.

Instead, mermaids are half octopus.

They can move around on land, albeit clumsily, and they can show surprising agility in climbing and crossing certain kinds of difficult terrain (e.g. rubble doesn't slow them down at all).

The evil troglodyte version is obviously half-squid.

FocusWolf413
2016-01-09, 05:16 AM
Mermaids aren't half-fish, since fish are dumb, and low on the evolutionary totem pole, and can't walk around on land.

Instead, mermaids are half octopus.

They can move around on land, albeit clumsily, and they can show surprising agility in climbing and crossing certain kinds of difficult terrain (e.g. rubble doesn't slow them down at all).

The evil troglodyte version is obviously half-squid.

I like this.

Bobbybobby99
2016-01-09, 06:58 AM
I'm not sure how well that would work, since they lack much of the mucous that keeps gastropods hydrated on land, and would thus dessicate really rather quickly.

Frozen_Feet
2016-01-09, 07:11 AM
Take a cue from One Piece: at some age, the tail splits, becoming legs with flippers.

goto124
2016-01-09, 07:29 AM
But that doesn't give them feet, so they're back to flopping about on land like seals.

They can't move about like snakes either... which reminds me, if we have sea snakes and river snakes, are there any sea gorgons? River gorgons?

Sredni Vashtar
2016-01-09, 08:26 AM
Would mermaid spells rely on verbal components? Because speaking doesn't seem terribly useful when underwater.

I remember a Justice League comic where Aquaman spoke quietly and sort of mumbled because he was used to living underwater, where sound travels better. I'd imagine merfolk to be similar.

kraftcheese
2016-01-09, 08:26 AM
But that doesn't give them feet, so they're back to flopping about on land like seals.

They can't move about like snakes either... which reminds me, if we have sea snakes and river snakes, are there any sea gorgons? River gorgons?

I guess if their tailfins could kinda...swooce in close to their bodies (fold down you know) they could move like a marilith? I mean there's precedence for it in D&D with mariliths, Yuan-Ti abominations and behir all swooce around like snakes with a decent upper body, and as an added bonus, the behir tucks its lil semi vestigial baby legs against its body and zoops around like a big lightning blasting worm.

ALSO sea gorgons sound cool; I mean the petrification would be really scary if you're swimming, because if you get turned to stone, you're dropping to the ocean floor...maybe theres undersea ruins full of what PCs would THINK are sunken statues...

awa
2016-01-09, 11:53 AM
i read a novel that had an interesting solution to this she just rode a horse with a custom saddle and did most of her fighting from horse back

Nifft
2016-01-09, 01:51 PM
I'm not sure how well that would work, since they lack much of the mucous that keeps gastropods hydrated on land, and would thus dessicate really rather quickly.
How it works is: you say they have some kind of amphibian skin which ameliorates that issue, instead of trying to rigidly apply octopus anatomy to something which is obviously not an octopus, but rather a novel creature which borrows octopus traits.

- - -

Another solution is to make them half-eel, so they're basically aquatic snake people, and they get around just as plausibly as the Yuan-ti do in high-magic D&D games.

YET ANOTHER solution might be to make them some kind of half-mollusk which can't walk around well at all, but they train giant turtles to carry them around, and they've recently had some luck in domesticating a form of big shelled dinosaur which can serve a similar role on land. Or maybe giant war-crabs. Really, a race of symbiotic "shell-riders" could be pretty fun.

The Glyphstone
2016-01-09, 01:55 PM
They ride around in big wheeled buckets pulled by horses.

Mr. Mask
2016-01-09, 03:39 PM
I think I recall reading an idea someone had where mermaids produced a sort of slime or mucus that covered their skin, to keep it from drying out.


A couple of ideas I had for inventions was a wetsuit filled with water, to keep them comfortable and from drying out. They could even wear that into fresh water, though breathing it may be an issue. I was considering some sort of saltsuit or salt-filter to allow them to convert the surrounding waters for breathing and skin-contact, but arranging it to dissolve the correct amount of salt over a period of time might be tricky? When all else fails, a sponge and a waterskin can do a lot to wipe away uncomfortable dryness.

Even with water-breathing mermaids, I wondered if all you'd need is to occasionally stir a bucket they could stick their head in to allow them to breath.


I do actually have a degree in marine biology, but even then it is speculation on a magical creature on what I am about to say.

I would say mermaids are marine mammals/reptiles with gills or some other way to breathe under water. They are not dependent on a fish slime coat and won't dry out on land, either because of scales or mammal like skin, perhaps both. I figure they would be similar to pinnipeds(seals, sea lions, walrus) out of water. Seals move the slowest,but they are capable of moving around on land, while walruses move a bit faster and sea lions can almost slow run. Certainly they are much faster in water, but they get around.Look up any youtube clip of sea lions and seals on land.

These animals can stay out of water indefinitely, but they don't really have the speed to catch land creatures. A merfolk might be able to use a bow or net, or fishing gear but they won't be running down anything. in the water, a merfolk could probably swim as fast as a fish and then spear them or something. Many pinnipeds do spend a lot of time out of the water for various reasons, usually only going in to fish or travel. Since these animals(and merfolk) are adapted to marine conditions, they have probably developed a way to deal with salt. Marine mammals have incredibly developed kidneys to excrete excess salt, while penguins, migratory seabirds, and the marine iguana will excrete salt through a gland near their eye. Merfolk would have one or both of these abilities.

In freshwater, they won't die, but they would probably be very unhappy as it would be hard on their skin and bodies, but I doubt it would be lethal. However, there is plenty of precedent of marine creatures going into freshwater and back-bull sharks, salmon, eels, and many species in the amazon delta are capable of changing from a marine to freshwater environment. It is not easy, and takes time to adapt, but is not lethal. Likewise their magic will work fine,unless it is water based and needs water. Obviously summoning a shark in a desert won't work, nor will creating a whirlpool work in a forest.

Their tails are capable of land movement and standing them upright. They have arms and can fight/use weapons/cast spells. If they have never been on land it might take a bit of time to adjust, but any merfolk of reasonable age in a land/sea environment(not deep sea merfolk) should be adjusted to gravity, the density difference and the like.

At least in pathfinder and D&D, merfolk are stated to be capable of living on land, although with difficulty and they do prefer water. This is really interesting. Thank you for weighing in.

On the note of salmon and other changing creatures, I wondered if mermaids might be able to make some change when moving to land. Whether they could incorporate a sort of slither for their tails, to get around a bit like a snake (though maybe more like a wriggle or shuffle than an actual slither).


If mermaids could afford some shuffling and standing with their tails, that'd make them a lot less helpless on land. Not to say they'd be specially dangerous, but it's a lot better than flopping around with a spear.

TheCountAlucard
2016-01-11, 09:14 AM
I was wondering about mermaid biology and how they might spend time on land.Depends on the game and setting and system. Mermaids tend to vary between these kinds of things.

For now, I'll assume D&D 3.5, using the merfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/merfolk.htm) from the Monster Manual and SRD.


Questions that come to mind, are: How do they move around?5 ft./rd. on land, swim speed 50 feet in the water.


How do they keep their bodies from drying out?It doesn't get mentioned, so my guess is that it's no more inconvenient to them than an armored character needing to use the bathroom - below the level of system granularity.


What do they do when they encounter fresh water (which they should react to badly)?It doesn't specify salt water in their entry, so my guess is that there's no immediate negative effects.


How long can they stay away from water?Looks like indefinitely, though they "rarely travel more than a few feet from the water's edge," though that itself can be reasonable considering their 5-ft. land speed.


Does dry land have any negative effects on their magic, if they have any?Doesn't say it does, so I'm guessing it doesn't unless the DM wants to rule otherwise.


Can they fight or defend themselves on land? How do they do so, if so?Probably not as well as they could in the water, but it doesn't say their attack rolls and AC drop to zero on land, so it looks like they can still participate in combat.

awa
2016-01-11, 09:43 AM
this is not the D&d subforum and he has not mentioned a system so we must assume system neutral answers to his questions.

goto124
2016-01-11, 09:50 AM
We're just defining a certain type of mermaid to work on, since there're so many types of mermaids out there. We can branch out to other mermaids from other systems later on.

TheCountAlucard
2016-01-11, 10:41 AM
this is not the D&d subforum and he has not mentioned a system so we must assume system neutral answers to his questions.There is no system-neutral answer because there is no mermaid that is consistent across all systems and settings. Much like if a poster had asked about demons or gods or martial artists.

Douche
2016-01-11, 11:17 AM
If you don't necessarily need them to be on land - but just interacting with land-people - you could have them live in a city like Venice where the streets are all canals. You could even have some locations have, like, tubes n stuff so that the mermaids could swim up into the bar and sit in a little grotto or something.

SimonMoon6
2016-01-11, 11:20 AM
Superman's mermaid friend Lori Lemaris traveled around in a wheelchair (with a blanket covering what people would assume to be her legs). And I think she kept a tank of salt water in her room.

Segev
2016-01-11, 03:42 PM
Lowest-cost solution would be a large, water-filled, open-topped barrel on wheels with a gondola-like push-pole to let her navigate. A wheel-chair, as suggested before, or something to let her ride a land-based mount (also previously suggested) could also work.

A level 1 spell that could enable at least some transport - especially with that barrel of water (though might need a higher-level caster to get the weight limit) would be floating disk. Unseen servants might be able to pull it around or even just carry her, as well.

A palanquin would be an elegant - in the "refined, aristocratic" sense - solution, as well. With or without a basin of water.


Regarding palanquins, I've wanted to play a Thrallherd who had his Believers carry him around on one as his primary means of getting around for a while now.

goto124
2016-01-11, 10:13 PM
If you don't necessarily need them to be on land - but just interacting with land-people - you could have them live in a city like Venice where the streets are all canals. You could even have some locations have, like, tubes n stuff so that the mermaids could swim up into the bar and sit in a little grotto or something.

Mermaid Venice sounds like a really cool place to travel and adventure in.


A palanquin would be an elegant - in the "refined, aristocratic" sense - solution, as well. With or without a basin of water.

Regarding palanquins, I've wanted to play a Thrallherd who had his Believers carry him around on one as his primary means of getting around for a while now.

I misread that as 'penguins'.

Also, water is really heavy. Wouldn't someone think of putting wheels on?

Segev
2016-01-12, 10:23 AM
Wouldn't someone think of putting wheels on?

Probably; but they might not for the same reason they don't with real-life palanquins: ease of getting up and down steps and the like. Also, palanquins are often carried by either beasts of burden or by slaves (or paid laborers), so the pay would have to be attractive enough or the choice of slaves would just have to be sufficient to carry the weight of the water.

Enough bearers, or big and strong enough bearers, could do it.

VoxRationis
2016-01-12, 02:17 PM
Venice's canals are not a clean environment—I'd feel sorry for any mermaids that have to live there.

@Nifft: How could a "troglodyte" version be half-squid? Squid are pelagic creatures—it's octopuses that are inclined to seek shelter in caves and crannies.

Segev
2016-01-12, 03:48 PM
Venice's canals are not a clean environment—I'd feel sorry for any mermaids that have to live there.

I imagine that, if they did, the canals wouldn't be filthy. Because it wouldn't be "out of sight, out of mind."

Nifft
2016-01-12, 05:37 PM
@Nifft: How could a "troglodyte" version be half-squid? Squid are pelagic creatures—it's octopuses that are inclined to seek shelter in caves and crannies.

The prehistoric and primitive part of the definition, not the cave part.

(I'm more familiar with the differences between octopus and squid neurophysiology than their home life preferences.)

Marlowe
2016-01-12, 06:41 PM
Basically, they should go about on land in magically-animated humongous mecha constructed of the bone and hide of the monstrous, indescribable creatures of the uttermost deep that they exist to cull.

A mermaid's social status can be gauged by the number of "legs" on her ride. A mermaid adventuring party on land can make the most jaded NPC scratch their heads in a befuddled fashion and mutter something unflattering about "anime".

Clearly, this is the superior interpretation.

Brother Oni
2016-01-12, 07:26 PM
There is no system-neutral answer because there is no mermaid that is consistent across all systems and settings. Much like if a poster had asked about demons or gods or martial artists.

Mr Mask originally asked this question in the Real World Weapons, Armour and Tactics thread earlier, although he only picked up one reply.


Venice's canals are not a clean environment—I'd feel sorry for any mermaids that have to live there.

There's a Japanese horror film, Mermaid in a Manhole from The Guinea Pig series, that explores this in some detail.

TheCountAlucard
2016-01-13, 03:52 AM
Mr Mask originally asked this question in the Real World Weapons, Armour and Tactics thread earlier, although he only picked up one reply.Mermaids aren't real, no matter what Animal Planet tries to tell you, so that's not too surprising.

That said, real-life mermaid stories and legends vary, too (which is probably why they vary in games!), so this information doesn't change anything. "A Mermaid" still lacks critical information.

John Longarrow
2016-01-13, 04:18 AM
The real answer is they wouldn't travel on the ground. They'd use hand gliders. Much more natural to them, faster, and their tails wouldn't hinder them. In a low magic setting, some magic would be used to get the glider into the air/land, but otherwise they'd only need surface movement when going indoors. For that, have the glider's wings fold down and have reverse trike landing gear. What ever can lift them should be able to allow them to roll about.

No, they would not like stairs. That would be a massive pain for them. For almost all other situations it would work well and feel most natural to a race use to 3 dimensional movement.

goto124
2016-01-13, 06:26 AM
Why do underwater castles have stairs anyway?

Mr. Mask
2016-01-13, 06:45 AM
Though you could still use the stairs well enough underwater, swimming or ladders would be good enough, now that you mention it. In the case of ladders, you can also use rope or floats to move equipment between floors.

Aasimar
2016-01-13, 06:45 AM
Why do underwater castles have stairs anyway?

To accommodate guests, such as crabs or lobsters.

John Longarrow
2016-01-13, 01:39 PM
Why do underwater castles have stairs anyway?

Because the Stair Makers guild is just that powerful...

Brother Oni
2016-01-13, 03:12 PM
Mermaids aren't real, no matter what Animal Planet tries to tell you, so that's not too surprising.

We do field a fair few speculative biology questions and how to give various critters a feel of verisimilitude along with potential weapons armour and tactics they'd probably use. :smallbiggrin:

The most entertaining mermaid source I've heard is that sailors saw the dudong, a large grazing aquatic mammal. After several months cooped up at sea without female company, I'm not surprised male sailors are seeing female forms in everything. :smallbiggrin:

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-01-13, 04:33 PM
To accommodate guests, such as crabs or lobsters.

Crab people, crab people!

Nifft
2016-01-13, 09:29 PM
Why do underwater castles have stairs anyway?

It's not stairs on purpose, it's just some species of coral which grows like that.