MM says dragons are magical. Does it mean claw/bite =magic weapons?

[Kurt Kurageous]

Party manages to get help from werebears vs. a dragon.

I hate to admit not knowing how I am going to rule this.

RAW says dragons are magic (twice on MM 86), so will their melee be able to harm a being with immunity to nonmagical melee such as a lycanthrope?

Opinons?

[Goober4473]

Short answer: No.

A lot of monsters are "magical," in that they are created, made of, fueled, or sustained by magic, but only a select few specify magical attacks. Look at golems, for instance. They have a special ability that calls out their attacks as magical.

[MaxWilson]

Party manages to get help from werebears vs. a dragon.

I hate to admit not knowing how I am going to rule this.

RAW says dragons are magic (twice on MM 86), so will their melee be able to harm a being with immunity to nonmagical melee such as a lycanthrope?

Opinons?

Opinion: the dragon can waste the werebears with hit-and-run attacks using his breath weapon. Or just ignore the werebears and focus on the PCs.

[Alerad]

If an adult dragon has encountered werebears before, can we consider it has invested time and money in silvered talons and teeth?

Honestly, the dragons would probably just use their breath and try to keep some distance. If you are several hundred years old highly intelligent creature it doesn't seem likely you have overlooked such a factor.

Dragons have kobolds to guard their hoard?

Dragons can shapeshift and just use a magic sword from their hoard?

Personally I like the idea of the dragon with the silver teeth. It adds more drama to the encounter :)

[Logosloki]

If an adult dragon has encountered werebears before, can we consider it has invested time and money in silvered talons and teeth?

Honestly, the dragons would probably just use their breath and try to keep some distance. If you are several hundred years old highly intelligent creature it doesn't seem likely you have overlooked such a factor.

Dragons have kobolds to guard their hoard?

Dragons can shapeshift and just use a magic sword from their hoard?

Personally I like the idea of the dragon with the silver teeth. It adds more drama to the encounter :)

This raises an interesting question, does a silver dragon's everything count as silvered?

Personally I'm thinking as a DM to make anything above 18 str or 18 dex be akin to being magical (Overwhelming force breaking the impenetrable is a stock favourite of mine)

[Temperjoke]

Personally I like the idea of the dragon with the silver teeth. It adds more drama to the encounter :)

*Imagines a dentist for dragons, who travels lair-to-lair to provide teeth cleaning, semi-annual checkups and silver-capping to dragon teeth*

[supergoji18]

RAW, no they don't. Except for their Breath Attack though.

That being said, as the DM rule 0 applies. If you want to give them magic attacks, then give them magic attacks. I sometimes do whether to add variety to the dragons encountered or to correct the difficulty of the encounter (Ancient Dragons do not seem all that powerful TBH. They don't even get resistance to non-magical attacks which over half the creatures in the game seem to have).

[Aasimar]

I'd definitely say a silver dragons natural attacks affect lycanthropes as silver weapons.

Other kinds of Dragon will need to rely on their breath weapon.

[JackPhoenix]

I'd definitely say a silver dragons natural attacks affect lycanthropes as silver weapons.

Other kinds of Dragon will need to rely on their breath weapon.

Does that mean that silver carp can hurt lycantropes too? Just because it's silver colored and named for that doesn't mean it's actually made of silver.

[The Glyphstone]

Werewolves, scourge of the wilderness. Their one weakness - being slapped with a fish.

[JoeJ]

Does that mean that silver carp can hurt lycantropes too? Just because it's silver colored and named for that doesn't mean it's actually made of silver.

Maybe it doesn't need to be made of silver. Lycanthropy might simply not protect against silver colored attacks, just like Green Lantern's ring used to not work against anything yellow.

[georgie_leech]

Werewolves, scourge of the wilderness. Their one weakness - being slapped with a fish.

Dangit Glyph now I need to go brew more coffee! Mine's all over my screen! :smallbiggrin:

[Whyrocknodie]

As already said, by RAW they can't hurt the were-bear.

In my campaign, there's no way a pathetic lycanthrope is going to be immune to being torn to shreds by a dragon though.

[-Jynx-]

If you're dragon is by its hoard of treasure it could always just melt some silver real quick, step in the melted pile of silver and make its claws silver for the purpose of maiming. :smallbiggrin:

[HoarsHalberd]

As already said, by RAW they can't hurt the were-bear.

In my campaign, there's no way a pathetic lycanthrope is going to be immune to being torn to shreds by a dragon though.

I mean they can by RAW. Simply fly above it, breathing on it every 3 turns on average. What is more interesting is using an iron golem against red, gold or bronze dragons, flesh golems against blue or brass dragons and either stone or iron golems against green dragons, as by RAW there is literally nothing these dragons can do to kill them.

EDIT: Also clay golems against green or black dragons.

[Keltest]

Given that many dragons are at least passable spellcasters and tend to have a nice hoard of magic items, i dont think it would be out of place to rule 0 that a sufficiently old dragon (how old this is being up to you) has enough tools for their regular attacks to bypass a Lycanthrope's resistance.

[Shining Wrath]

First, the RAW: if an attack is magical the MM entry will call it out as magical. The entry for dragons doesn't call them out as magical, except the breath. That's RAW.

Now, the DM advice: did the dragon know of these werebears? What type of dragon, and how long has it been in the area? A dragon that's been in a lair for decades, watching the tribe of werebears grow, is going to be ready. But a red might be too arrogant to have prepared anything besides its mighty breath. OTOH, a green will have attempted to subvert at least one werebear to its side, and the party + werebears will be betrayed when they least expect it.

Minions who can fight werebears effectively, such as a silver golem (homebrew time, start from iron) are another option.

Just play your dragon like a hyper-intelligent nearly immortal incredibly greedy monster, and you'll do fine.

[JoeJ]

Are lycanthropes immune to falling damage? The dragon can always grapple it, fly up, and drop the annoying creature. If it's a red dragon, there might even be a volcano nearby for convenient disposal.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

If an adult dragon has encountered werebears before, can we consider it has invested time and money in silvered talons and teeth?

Honestly, the dragons would probably just use their breath and try to keep some distance. If you are several hundred years old highly intelligent creature it doesn't seem likely you have overlooked such a factor.

Dragons have kobolds to guard their hoard?

Dragons can shapeshift and just use a magic sword from their hoard?

Personally I like the idea of the dragon with the silver teeth. It adds more drama to the encounter :)

Too much short term thinking.

The dragon obviously mated with a human 100's of years ago. That human, with the help of a disguised dragon, rallied the people into making a kingdom. This kingdom now is pretty decent sized and has a decent relationship with said dragon. Sure they aren't friends but their involvement is mutually beneficial.

The dragon has a fake lair with fake loot with real kobolds guarding said fake loot.

The dragon stays there from time to time sure, but has a way to get into a sealed off vault that is stored at the heart of the capitol's castle. Here the dragon can also see his or her grandchildren and be a secrete source of council. The Dragon wants to keep his/her line going so that he/she has a safe place to stay.

If anyone ever attacks the fake hoard the dragon can retreat to the heart of the capitol where the dragon can set up the adventurers as traitors due to all the connections the dragon has... Royal line, guilds, and whomever else. They may all know him/her by different aliases or whatever but the point is that the dragon is safe.

Being a Red, or whatever color, Dragon can be about more than fire and death, self preservation and a long life span can go a long way ;)

[MaxWilson]

Are lycanthropes immune to falling damage? The dragon can always grapple it, fly up, and drop the annoying creature. If it's a red dragon, there might even be a volcano nearby for convenient disposal.

They're immune to B/S/P from "nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" (revised MM page 208).

Falling damage is bludgeoning damage per PHB 183, so unless you want to rule that the ground isn't a "nonmagical attack" because it doesn't involve an attack roll, they are immune.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

They're immune to B/S/P from "nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" (revised MM page 208).

Falling damage is bludgeoning damage per PHB 183, so unless you want to rule that the ground isn't a "nonmagical attack" because it doesn't involve an attack roll, they are immune.

Is the plane considered magical?

Like, they aren't exactly planets like we know of them and they have some weird properties, even the material plane. You could say that the bludgeoning damage from hitting the ground is magical.

[Keltest]

Is the plane considered magical?

Like, they aren't exactly planets like we know of them and they have some weird properties, even the material plane. You could say that the bludgeoning damage from hitting the ground is magical.

I would rule that it wouldn't kill them, but every bone in their body would shatter and give them a million and six negative effects to go along with it. Given time, they will heal, but until then theyre sitting ducks.

[Alerad]

Another interesting fact from the MM is that lycanthropes' attacks are themselves non-magical. What happens if two were-bears fight? Are they going to sit there slashing and biting at each other until the end of time?

Just pointing out that because such a loophole exists, ruling that adult or ancient dragons *can* damage lycanthropes wouldn't seem so strange.

[JackPhoenix]

Is the plane considered magical?

Like, they aren't exactly planets like we know of them and they have some weird properties, even the material plane. You could say that the bludgeoning damage from hitting the ground is magical.

Plane isn't the same thing as a planet (most of the time). Material plane is the whole physical universe, filled with things like stars, huge portals to elemental plane of fire, gods on their golden chariots, regular planets, hollow spheres with civilisation on the inner surface or discs riding on the back of four elephants (who ride a turtle). All of them may or may not count as magical, depending on the setting.

[Tanarii]

They're immune to B/S/P from "nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" (revised MM page 208).

Falling damage is bludgeoning damage per PHB 183, so unless you want to rule that the ground isn't a "nonmagical attack" because it doesn't involve an attack roll, they are immune.
I thought the entire purpose of that edit was to remove resistance to environmental damage such as falling?

[ImSAMazing]

I thought the entire purpose of that edit was to remove resistance to environmental damage such as falling?
Yeah. Falling to the ground isn't an attack. That's why they aren't immune. Crawford answered such a question in a tweet, but I can't find the link.

[Joe the Rat]

Another interesting fact from the MM is that lycanthropes' attacks are themselves non-magical. What happens if two were-bears fight? Are they going to sit there slashing and biting at each other until the end of time?

Just pointing out that because such a loophole exists, ruling that adult or ancient dragons *can* damage lycanthropes wouldn't seem so strange.
I remember some mumbles about creatures with non-magical attack resistance/immunity counting as being magical for overcoming that resistance/immunity, but I can't find that point of discussion (tweet, houserule, planned update, older edition, hallucination).

It sounds sensible to me - otherwise how would anything get resolved between lycanthropes? (I suppose werebears might wrestle it out...)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I remember some mumbles about creatures with non-magical attack resistance/immunity counting as being magical for overcoming that resistance/immunity, but I can't find that point of discussion (tweet, houserule, planned update, older edition, hallucination).

It sounds sensible to me - otherwise how would anything get resolved between lycanthropes? (I suppose werebears might wrestle it out...)

That's been a very common houserule since 3e. It sure if they put it in 5e though.

[Douche]

Personally I like the idea of the dragon with the silver teeth. It adds more drama to the encounter :)

http://therapfest.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Rapfest_PaulWall.jpg

[GlenSmash!]

I'm of the opinion that damage from falling is not from an attack. Getting players to think outside the box to defeat foes is a good thing. I think that was the intent for making the resistance to "nonmagical attacks not made with silvered weapons" Even if gravity is a harsh mistress, the ground is not a weapon. I mean how would the ground fit in the weapons table?

I do think it's odd that by a strict interpretation of how Natural Weapon Attacks work Lycanthropes can't damage each other with their attacks. Perhaps Werebears settle their differences by wrestling each other until pinned or submission. Or I guess they could suffocate each other.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Thanks all for the feedback so far.

More details are relevant, more grist for the mill.

The dragon is a young green. The werebears were there before the dragon. The dragon has laired in a dungeon with front door and back door thru an underwater passage to a swamp. Dragon may lose loot but will not likely fight to the death due to green disposition.

Wearbears have a clan, two adults and a bunch of kids, not all 'thropes. They are all orphans who take in other orphans. I think the dragon will slaughter the orphans if it escapes.

Dragon can't use height much in lair, might drag off and drown one bear.

If drop damage is not a weapon attack, too bad. The earth has plenty of silver in it.

Melting silver or chewing it up so it coats the mouth might make the bite or claw valid. I agree with Alerad, the young green dragon running around in the dark, then suddenly jumping out and sporting a grille will be hilarious!

BTW, there are four young dragons in this frontier barony, a black, silver, and bronze. It's an Oz kinda thing, except they are not at the cardinal points. Black NW, Silver SW, Bronze NE, Green SE. Their sires are much further away, and they are all drawn there by the campaign arc. The chromatics are wanted dead, but no takers yet as they use meatshields as early warnings and their lairs are nearly inaccessible by humans.

[GlenSmash!]

If drop damage is not a weapon attack, too bad.

Why too bad? I think having drop damage not resisted by lycanthropes is good.