What's the Best Way To Build A Face/Diviner/Ranged DPS/Off-Healer Character?

[Aeradom]

Title says it all but a little elaboration is needed. Got invited to a game and discovered that despite the party having eight people in total (including me), the ground didn't have anyone with detect/identify magic (or really any of those divination sorts of things), only one character fighting from range, and the highest Cha in the party was 14 and no, no one had any conversation skills. So, I asked and got permission to re-roll my Pally into a spellcaster and now am just looking for the most optimal way to fill the above roles. To be clear, the character on his own doesn't have to fill EVERY Role; for instance, if I can get by using a wand to heal with when the primary healer is overwhelmed then that'll do. Sadly, this was my first D&D 5e game, so I thought I'd get the advice from others before diving deep into character building.

The Face I'm not worried about as much, as really just need a decently high Cha and the right skill, but I bring it up because since that is needed anyways, it would seem I'd rather go with a Sorcerer than a Wizard. But I also need to pick up those diviner spells to help outside of combat, and thus unless I'm going with Favored Soul with Knowledge Domain, I'm not sure what other options there are.

So, any advice?

[CaptAl]

Bard, either college works. Or go Rogue with a 2 level wizard dip for Diviner archetype.

[Aeradom]

Bard, either college works. Or go Rogue with a 2 level wizard dip for Diviner archetype.

A bard huh? That would actually work pretty well come to think of it. And honestly the least important of all those things I mentioned was Ranged DPS (the other guys in the party have the Damage covered pretty well). I got to say, I'm a bit prejudiced, never played a bard but it just seems like there a bit.... what's the most PC way to put this... whimpy? I'm guessing since you brought it up though there not, I should look into it though. And thanks for the reply.

[CaptAl]

Lore bard makes a great party face, has an excellent spell list, is the best skill monkey in the game without a multiclass, but does meh at will damage early.

Glad to help.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Bards who want to do range damage should always swipe Swift Quiver, always.

[Tanarii]

Lore Bard. That gives you access to Detect Thoughts, Locate Animals and Plants, Locate Object, Clairvoyance, Sending, Speak with Dead, Locate Creature, Tongues, Dream, Legend Lore, and Scrying.

Take Ritual Caster (Wizard) for Detect Magic, Identify, Comprehend Langurages, and Contact Other Plane.

At 6th level swipe Augury. At 10th Arcane Eye. Also consider Divination, Commune or Commune with Nature, although with Contact Other Plane the latter two may be unnecessary.

[Malknafein]

Tome Warlock: high charisma and social skills, ritual casting from invocation, good ranged damage from Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast.

Tome Warlock 3/Favored Soul Sorc X for more damage and some healing.

Tome Warlock 3/Lore Bard X for more skillmonkiness and buffs/healing

[solidork]

The Face I'm not worried about as much, as really just need a decently high Cha and the right skill, but I bring it up because since that is needed anyways, it would seem I'd rather go with a Sorcerer than a Wizard. But I also need to pick up those diviner spells to help outside of combat, and thus unless I'm going with Favored Soul with Knowledge Domain, I'm not sure what other options there are.

So, any advice?

Can you tell us what level you are starting at?

Something to keep in mind is that you can get Detect Magic and Identify is as rituals through the Ritual Caster feat or the Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock invocation. Both of those options can give you tons of out of combat utility without having to spend precious spells known. However, your GM will ultimately have control over what you can learn based on what scrolls/spellbooks you find and what kind of arcane institutions you have access to in his campaign world. I suggest asking them beforehand.

If you are comfortable sacrificing healing to emphasize Ranged DPS and think your DM will let you have reasonable access to new rituals, I suggest Tome Warlock.
If you want to emphasize off-healing capabilities but sacrifice DPS, go Bard. You can eventually offset the damage with Magical Secrets, as people have been saying, but that is a long way off if you are starting at low level.

[MaxWilson]

Bards who want to do range damage should always swipe Swift Quiver, always.

Meh. Animate Dead would be better for the same spell slot cost. 8d6+16 with a bonus action beats 2d8+10, and it lasts for more than just one minute, and doesn't take concentration.

Conclusion: bards who want to do ranged damage are optimizing the wrong thing.

[georgie_leech]

Meh. Animate Dead would be better for the same spell slot cost. 8d6+16 with a bonus action beats 2d8+10, and it lasts for more than just one minute, and doesn't take concentration.

Conclusion: bards who want to do ranged damage are optimizing the wrong thing.

That's... kind of missing the point. Sure, that's more effective, but it's also not them standing back and dealing damage from range. It's like telling someone that's playing a Fighter that wants to be a master of fighting with Shortswords and telling them to grab a Two-Handed weapon and GWM.

[CantigThimble]

If variant human is allowed I'd go with tomelock. On top of the obvious high charisma, high ranged DPR and Book of Ancient Secrets you can take the healer feat which is actually not to far behind prayer of healing without draining any of your combat resources. Just make sure to bring about 30 pounds of healing kits. For even more spell-less support you could grab inspiring leader later, although it actually wouldn't be able to hit your entire party which is kinda rare.

[JoeJ]

Meh. Animate Dead would be better for the same spell slot cost. 8d6+16 with a bonus action beats 2d8+10, and it lasts for more than just one minute, and doesn't take concentration.

Conclusion: bards who want to do ranged damage are optimizing the wrong thing.

Not everybody wants to play an evil character. And not every party wants to hang around with one.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Not everybody wants to play an evil character. And not every party wants to hang around with one.

Well, most people don't know they are or don't think THEY are.

I would say...

Not everbody wants to play with an antagonist character. And not every party wants to hang with one.

I've played LE characters that would put LG paladins to shame when comparing their deeds.

[Zalabim]

That's... kind of missing the point. Sure, that's more effective, but it's also not them standing back and dealing damage from range. It's like telling someone that's playing a Fighter that wants to be a master of fighting with Shortswords and telling them to grab a Two-Handed weapon and GWM.


Not everybody wants to play an evil character. And not every party wants to hang around with one.

Even Conjure Volley would be better ranged damage over an encounter if there's more than a couple targets to hit with it. It'd also not require concentration, or several bonus actions, or make you wait for next turn to get any damage from it.

Or Haste. I'm sure any lack compared to Swift Quiver can be made up by being a level 3 spell. (2 damage per hit for a crossbow expert, but then you don't need a normal crossbow and a swift quiver crossbow.)

[Tanarii]

Conjure Volley

Haste
Animate Dead lasts 24 hours and doesn't take concentration. You can also cast it the night before you adventure, then renew it on 4 skeletons the day of the adventure for one level 3 slot.

Effectively it gives you 4 attacks at +4 for d6+2, every combat round, all day long, concentration free, for one level 3 slot. 4d6+8 per round is incomparable over the course of an adventuring day.

For a level 5 slot it's 8d6+16 per round, every round, all day long.

That said, I agree undead minions do miss the points on wanting to be a (personal) ranged attacker, and not necessarily wanting to be evil.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Animate Dead lasts 24 hours and doesn't take concentration. You can also cast it the night before you adventure, then renew it on 4 skeletons the day of the adventure for one level 3 slot.

Effectively it gives you 4 attacks at +4 for d6+2, every combat round, all day long, concentration free, for one level 3 slot. 4d6+8 per round is incomparable over the course of an adventuring day.

For a level 5 slot it's 8d6+16 per round, every round, all day long.

That said, I agree undead minions do miss the points on wanting to be a (personal) ranged attacker, and not necessarily wanting to be evil.

Refluff to magical flying musical notes?

[Temperjoke]

Circle of Land druid has a lot of spell options that can handle a lot of your needs for divination, healing. It's got some ranged options too, although if the majority of your party is melee, having a couple of ranged people can be dangerous as they can get isolated away from the group.

[Aeradom]

Wow, didn't expect as many responses! Thanks guys!


Can you tell us what level you are starting at?

Something to keep in mind is that you can get Detect Magic and Identify is as rituals through the Ritual Caster feat or the Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock invocation. Both of those options can give you tons of out of combat utility without having to spend precious spells known. However, your GM will ultimately have control over what you can learn based on what scrolls/spellbooks you find and what kind of arcane institutions you have access to in his campaign world. I suggest asking them beforehand.

If you are comfortable sacrificing healing to emphasize Ranged DPS and think your DM will let you have reasonable access to new rituals, I suggest Tome Warlock.
If you want to emphasize off-healing capabilities but sacrifice DPS, go Bard. You can eventually offset the damage with Magical Secrets, as people have been saying, but that is a long way off if you are starting at low level.

Ah yes, that would be helpful to know wouldn't it? We're starting at level 8 (well that's what the character will be when I create him.) And to be clear in terms of priority for what I want to make with the character: Utility/Support>Face>Off-Healing>Ranged Damage. I'm definitely thinking at this point of multiclassing and going with Bard 6/Sorcerer 2. This is primarily the DM is letting my choose whether to stick with the Luck Blade, or go with what it was originally rolled as, Staff of the Magi (I've actually got some storytelling associated with the staff so if possible I'd like to use it). But I do have a question on the staff; I know it has to be attuned to a Spellcaster, but in terms of spell effectiveness, would the Staff only apply to Sorcerer spells or all of them?


Meh. Animate Dead would be better for the same spell slot cost. 8d6+16 with a bonus action beats 2d8+10, and it lasts for more than just one minute, and doesn't take concentration.

Conclusion: bards who want to do ranged damage are optimizing the wrong thing.


That's... kind of missing the point. Sure, that's more effective, but it's also not them standing back and dealing damage from range. It's like telling someone that's playing a Fighter that wants to be a master of fighting with Shortswords and telling them to grab a Two-Handed weapon and GWM.

To be clear, when I say "ranged damage" I really mean, not going into melee range while contributing to the total party damage output. If that happens with a Summon or a magic spell, I really don't care which one. I should of been more clear on that.


Well, most people don't know they are or don't think THEY are.

I would say...

Not everbody wants to play with an antagonist character. And not every party wants to hang with one.

I've played LE characters that would put LG paladins to shame when comparing their deeds.


Not everybody wants to play an evil character. And not every party wants to hang around with one.

Interesting enough, this actually would fit in with the story of my character. In the story, he's the son of a Sorcerer who sacrificed his wife to embue his son with dark powers. But once he inevitably found out about it, he left and only has returned recently and patched things up (mostly with his father). Now, if I do go with the Staff idea I mentioned above, I already rolled it and it turned out to be of Infernal origins, so Animate Dead actually would fit flavor wise.

[MaxWilson]

That's... kind of missing the point. Sure, that's more effective, but it's also not them standing back and dealing damage from range. It's like telling someone that's playing a Fighter that wants to be a master of fighting with Shortswords and telling them to grab a Two-Handed weapon and GWM.

Huh? Yes it is ranged damage.

Though, since the OP is okay with summoning spells, you could just use your Magical Secrets on Conjure Animals instead (non-evil), or even save your Magical Secrets purely for healing/support spells (Circle of Power, Aura of Vitality, Revivify, etc.) and use Animate Objects to contribute in combat. But I think Conjure Animals is good enough to be worth the pick. Short casting time, excellent efficiency, good duration--it's great on every single dimension.

Make sure you buy lots of d20s though so you can roll all of your animal attacks simultaneously. Doing the attacks in parallel really speeds up the combat.

[Hairfish]

If you're playing with a bunch of melee-oriented characters, your best ranged combat spell is Fly.

[Theodoxus]

Just wanted to point out that nearly (if not all - I'm AFB) Cleric divination spells are Rituals - so grabbing Ritual Caster -> Cleric (provided you have a 13 Wis) wouldn't be remiss. I had to do that in a game, where the Cleric hated divination spells, but memorized them one day so I could get scrolls.

Is there a particular reason you're thinking Bard 6/Sorc 2? I'd personally reverse that (or really, Bard 1, Sorc 7, depending on what you're using the Bard levels for- I'd use it for the Cure Wounds/Healing Word, which when Twinned, becomes quite potent healing).

[CantigThimble]

Just wanted to point out that nearly (if not all - I'm AFB) Cleric divination spells are Rituals - so grabbing Ritual Caster -> Cleric (provided you have a 13 Wis) wouldn't be remiss. I had to do that in a game, where the Cleric hated divination spells, but memorized them one day so I could get scrolls.

Is there a particular reason you're thinking Bard 6/Sorc 2? I'd personally reverse that (or really, Bard 1, Sorc 7, depending on what you're using the Bard levels for- I'd use it for the Cure Wounds/Healing Word, which when Twinned, becomes quite potent healing).

Most of them aren't but the cleric specific ones are (Augury, Divination and Commune). Also for ritual caster you don't need the relevant stat to 13, just a 13 in wisdom or intelligence. Even if you're taking bard ritual caster.

I'm a little unclear how these spells work for a non-cleric. I've always assumed they were answered according to the perspective of your god, which is why they were cleric specific. (a battle god would say that actions leading to a fight would be weal while a peace loving god would say woe) I suppose the DM would rule what kind of entity you contact. I'm not sure if I'd go with an entity associated with your personal god or an entity associated with the god of the cleric whose ritual you copied. It makes sense that spellcasting would vary to some degree from god to god, Mystra would use tarot cards, Bhaal would use entrails, Tymora would use dice (or maybe a coin flip) ect. and copying Bhaal's ritual wouldn't work to contact Eldath.

Oh, and for spells afb I love dnd-spells.com, it's nice to be able to look at all cleric divination spells in order of whether they're rituals or not in 5 seconds.

[gfishfunk]

<snip>

I'm a little unclear how these spells work for a non-cleric. I've always assumed they were answered according to the perspective of your god, which is why they were cleric specific. (a battle god would say that actions leading to a fight would be weal while a peace loving god would say woe) I suppose the DM would rule what kind of entity you contact.

<snip>

That could make the spells very amusing.

God: "Interesting question...but who are you again? I keep a very organized contact list, but I can't find you in here...."

[Tanarii]

Just wanted to point out that nearly (if not all - I'm AFB) Cleric divination spells are Rituals - so grabbing Ritual Caster -> Cleric (provided you have a 13 Wis) wouldn't be remiss.But not Identify. OTOH that *is* a Bard spell, so he could just burn a spell known for it. Although that's effectively burning one spell known slot completely, since you'll cast it so rarely. IMO better off using an Additional Secrets slot for Augury and going Ritual Caster Wizard.

[Aeradom]

Just wanted to point out that nearly (if not all - I'm AFB) Cleric divination spells are Rituals - so grabbing Ritual Caster -> Cleric (provided you have a 13 Wis) wouldn't be remiss. I had to do that in a game, where the Cleric hated divination spells, but memorized them one day so I could get scrolls.

Is there a particular reason you're thinking Bard 6/Sorc 2? I'd personally reverse that (or really, Bard 1, Sorc 7, depending on what you're using the Bard levels for- I'd use it for the Cure Wounds/Healing Word, which when Twinned, becomes quite potent healing).

Really it's more for backstory purposes, and partly because I wanted to get the Bard stuff out of the way. See, the backstory I've been playing around with in my head is that he basically found out his dad sacrificed his mom to a demon to embue the boy with power, Son found out and was pretty pissed and thus left and that's when he became a bard first. He came back and patched things up with daddy dearest and yeah that's about it. I'll be finishing out the campaign (which will probably go right up to 20) as a Sorcerer if that helps.


But not Identify. OTOH that *is* a Bard spell, so he could just burn a spell known for it. Although that's effectively burning one spell known slot completely, since you'll cast it so rarely. IMO better off using an Additional Secrets slot for Augury and going Ritual Caster Wizard.

Yeah, Ritual Caster Wizard will definitely be a feat I grab. I'll tell you something that happened in my first game that made me realize how much we needed someone like the character I'm making; we were contracted by a kingdom to find a special resource on this mountain. Well, turns out the mountain was occupied by various giants. Apparently the DM was expecting their to be a fight (and in all fairness, the group was sort of leaning that way or were going to provoke a fight) until I thought, "Hey, maybe we should see if we could talk to them." Problem was, no one knew Giant or had a spell that could be used to get past the language barrier. Second idea was to create some sort of peace offering a greeting, but no one could cast illusion, so the idea of having a giant flaming stone statue wasn't going to work. Eventually we used "non-verbal" communication skills and manage to get past the language barrier (helps when FOUR out of five members of the party rolls a 20) and negotiated a deal where the giants would collect the raw resource bring it to a nearby town (and continue to protect the resource from intruders) whereby the arranged payment would be waiting for the location for their pickup. Really was pretty amazing, and why I love these games because it challenges me to come up with the unconventional solution.

[Citan]

Title says it all but a little elaboration is needed. Got invited to a game and discovered that despite the party having eight people in total (including me), the ground didn't have anyone with detect/identify magic (or really any of those divination sorts of things), only one character fighting from range, and the highest Cha in the party was 14 and no, no one had any conversation skills. So, I asked and got permission to re-roll my Pally into a spellcaster and now am just looking for the most optimal way to fill the above roles. To be clear, the character on his own doesn't have to fill EVERY Role; for instance, if I can get by using a wand to heal with when the primary healer is overwhelmed then that'll do. Sadly, this was my first D&D 5e game, so I thought I'd get the advice from others before diving deep into character building.

The Face I'm not worried about as much, as really just need a decently high Cha and the right skill, but I bring it up because since that is needed anyways, it would seem I'd rather go with a Sorcerer than a Wizard. But I also need to pick up those diviner spells to help outside of combat, and thus unless I'm going with Favored Soul with Knowledge Domain, I'm not sure what other options there are.

So, any advice?

Hi! :)

As others told before me, for a single-class option, Bard is the most evident choice, probably Valor Bard if you want to be the most balanced (although Lore suits better my personal taste). Although if you keep the "Face" aspect off, pure Druid would be very very close. :)

If you're envisioning a multiclass character, then dual class (Lore Bard / Devotion Paladin) is the most balanced choice in terms of build complexity / play versatility.
Go DEX-based Paladin, Devotion (for CHA bonus to attack) and go either one-handed finesse + shield with spare daggers or main ranged with bow.
Go Devotion up to 6 (dual attack, 2nd lvl spells, +CHA to saving throws) and Bard rest of the way.
Cramming a level of Fighter for "Archery" Fighting style would add to your distant capability.

Starting Bard or Pally is up to you (Bard for skills, Pally for WIS save proficiency and armors/shield).

Finally if you really want the "ultimate CHA-based gish" you can do this improbable mix...

Lore Bard 6 / Tome Warlock 3 / Devotion Paladin 6 / Favored Soul Sorcerer 5 (or drop Sorcerer to go Paladin or Bard 11).

Bard brings Jack of all Trade, 2 lvl 3 poach spells, Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest and nice spells.
Warlock brings Shillelagh and any other one to your liking (Tome), as well as Agonizing / Repelling Blast (either one is good) and any lvl 1 and 2 rituals you could find.
Devotion Paladin brings armor / shield proficiencies, healing/buff spells and smiting, +CHA to saves, +CHA to hit.
Sorcerer brings additional good cantrips, offensive/debuff spells, in addition to Domain spells and metamagic (Twin, Subtle, Quickened and Heightened are all good depending on your spell choice).
You take Inspiring Leader and/or Warcaster. Spell Sniper can be a decent third choice, although there are usually better feats.

You are obviously a CHA + DEX build, holding a rapier in one hand and a shield in the other, while donning a light or medium armor depending on stats.

This means you're ultimately no MAD (DEX and CHA to max, then CON, STR only for minimum) while holding your own...
- in skills (best at 2, good in 4 others, decent in all else thanks to Expertise & Jack of all Trades);
- in weapon defense (17 AC+shield=19 base AC + Shield from Sorcerer if needed);
- in saving throw defense (proficiencies & +CHA to saves);
- in melee (2 attacks + Dueling from Paladin)
- in range (Eldricht Blast or pick a bow and arrows);
- in buffs (twinned spells from Paladin / Magic Secrets and maybe Inspiring Leader if you managed to get it one way or another);
- in debuffs (twinned spells from Bard/Sorcerer);
- in utility (rituals + Bard spells + Magic Secrets);
- in nova (smiting mainly);
- in prepared spells capacity;
- in total spellcasting capacity;

Just know that you're a pure gish, so you'll be like a Paladin on steroids (less mundane damage but better nova and much better versatility).
Also, you will only have 3 feats and very spaced in your career so no way to min-max.
It's not so bad though. If only, twinning a lvl 5 Bestow Curse can make your day, as well as sustaining a poached Conjure Animals. By the way, why Devotion instead of Vengeance? Because Devotion is easier to exploit and more versatile (and you'll get Hex if you want "concentration extra damage" anyways).
So you can get away with not optimal stats, although you will have to choose whichever to favor between DEX and CHA (maxing CHA means 1. allies help you hit in mundane fights or 2. You're mainly using spells and cantrips, keeping Sacred Weapon for hard fights or 3. You got Shillelagh from Bard or Warlock).

Which means starting array
STR 12, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15
empowered by the obvious Half-Elf choice (+2 CHA, +1 two other stats) to give
STR 13, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 17.
First ASI +2 CHA
2

The big thing is how to get there. Several ways, my suggestion would be...
1. Paladin. Why not the others?
- Warlock is plainly a worse choice than Pally in every aspect.
- Sorcerer is nice for CON proficiency, but otherwise lackluster for the build: lack of proficiencies, d6. And you have the +CHA to help with saving throws. Although if you plan on being always the first in line AND using concentration spells, it's worth taking it as a base.
- Bard proficiencies are not so interesting since DEX and CHA will be maxed, and Paladin has all armors and weapons. You lose in skill choice but that can be worked around with careful choice of Background.
2/3/4/5/6: Paladin. You won't feel behind that way.
Then it's really up to your feelings... Apart from skill-monkeying, everything else is just fuel for smiting and versatility.
Although I'd suggest...
7: Light Sorcerer or Warlock (offensive spells and cantrips) or Knowledge Sorcerer for "free" Identify.
8-14: Bard.
If you're still alive and kicking, and campaign didn't end yet, finish with the rest as you like.

Have fun in your campaign!

[bid]

As others told before me, for a single-class option, Bard is the most evident choice, probably Valor Bard if you want to be the most balanced (although Lore suits better my personal taste).
As I read what he said, there's 6 melee, 1 ranged and him. I looks like damage is too well covered for an archer valor. That would push pally out too I guess.

So yeah, bard 6 then feel out for sorcerer/warlock.

As for the cleric rituals, I'm sure you can convince one of the 6 melee to retcon as a war cleric or something that fits with the concept. It's better to spread the shine around.

[Tanarii]

Refluff to magical flying musical notes?
Skeletons with harps :)

http://torinking.com/Skeleton%20Harp%20and%20Pipe%20Woodcut-small.png