D&D 5e Necromancer.... Possible before 13th-14th level?

[Bellberith]

I have looked through the books and couldn't find a way, but maybe you guys can. Is it possible to make a necromancer before level 14 command undead or level 13 finger of death? Without having to spend a ridiculous amount of daily spells on creatures that can all be wiped out with 1 or 2 fireballs of course.

If not, can anyone point me towards a universally agreed upon balanced homebrew for it?

[MaxWilson]

I have looked through the books and couldn't find a way, but maybe you guys can. Is it possible to make a necromancer before level 14 command undead or level 13 finger of death? Without having to spend a ridiculous amount of daily spells on creatures that can all be wiped out with 1 or 2 fireballs of course.

If not, can anyone point me towards a universally agreed upon balanced homebrew for it?

Take high Charisma and the Inspiring Leader feat. Voila, no more problem with Fireballs because all your skeletons have 30-40 total HP. And you don't have to keep them clumped together anyway.

Necromancer are incredibly strong in 5E already, they don't need any more boosts.

[Bellberith]

Take high Charisma and the Inspiring Leader feat. Voila, no more problem with Fireballs because all your skeletons have 30-40 total HP. And you don't have to keep them clumped together anyway.

Necromancer are incredibly strong in 5E already, they don't need any more boosts.

Using up all your spells/day for a small force doesn't sound incredibly strong to me. And i don't know where you are getting 30-40 from.... Skeletons have 13hp, and even if you were level 14 (even though i asked for before level 13) that is 27-29hp tops. Because if you have points in charisma past a +2 mod as a wizard, you have other problems. And honestly that isnt very impressive for level 14 characters. Still well within kill range of 1 fireball too since average damage is 28.

In my opinion a random wizard that decides to keep around 4 - 12 skeletons doesn't constitute as a "real necromancer". Honestly i can think of half a dozen better uses of my 3rd level spells that will get more done than 12 skeletons could.

[Tanarii]

At 6th level with a day's warning, a necromancer can have 8 skeletons up, concentration free.

8 skeletons is +4 to hit, range 80ft, 8d6+40 per round. Every round, they put out more an double the damage of a fireball, albeit to one target and without save for half. But it's the gift of damage that keeps on giving all day long. If it comes down to damage absorption, which it shouldn't unless you're in cramped quarters, they can absorb a total of 152 hps of damage.

With two day's warning you can have 10 skeletons. Alternately with a day's warning, you can have four skeletons up, and still have two 3rd level spell slots available for other spells. With two days, you can have 8 up and a 3rd level spell slot ready to go.

[coredump]

Recalling previous threads.... the best way to be a necromancer was not via wizard. So check other options. I believe Oathbreaker Paladin had some useful goodies.

[MaxWilson]

Recalling previous threads.... the best way to be a necromancer was not via wizard. So check other options. I believe Oathbreaker Paladin had some useful goodies.

Those people, whoever they were, are wrong. Necromancer is by far the best Necromancer. Unsurprisingly.

Necromancer is so good that if you actually spend all your spell points on skeletons like the OP suggests, the whole game is boring and easy. Stick to a dozen or so, two at the most. You'll have lots of fun with spells AND and a skeleton archer army, and that's before you add in Create Undead and your own pet superwight and all the other wights you can Geas and the synergy between Vampiric Touch and Grim Harvest and fun with Magic Jar, etc., etc.

Necromancers are like playing 5E on Easy Mode.

[Flashy]

Necromancers are like playing 5E on Easy Mode.

This. The reason there are essentially no permanent undead spells for players is that it would be outrageously overpowered.

[Sception]

Undead are very fragile, but they're also multiple free attacks per round, without concentration and with only the occassional bonus action (not even every round) to direct them, in a game where slow AC growth with level means those attacks should never become meaningless, certainly not before you start switching up to ghouls and wights.

For the record, while an Oathbreaker isn't a better necromancer than a wizard specialist on their own (fewer slots, later access to Animate Dead, no access to Create Undead), they are an absolutely fantastic companion to a Wizard Necromancer, as their buff to undead melee damage stacks with the Necro wizard's buff to damage. Plus, as mentioned, Paladins like to take the Inspiring Leader feat (an Oathbreaker on their own should be taking Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master instead, but if they have a wizard necromancer in the party Inspiring Leader becomes a serious alternative), for temp HP that stack with the bonus HP necro wizards grant their undead.

Plus the paladins get the save boosting aura to help keep melee undead alive. Remember that, in addition to bonus HP from the wizard and maybe temp HP from the paladin, Zombies get a save to stay alive when killed, and the paladin's aura will buff that save. At 7th level, a pair of 3rd level spell slots per day to keep up four zombies (centered around the paladin up front) and four skeletons (firing arrows from the back with the wizard) will absolutely do work for you. Yes, they're vulnerable to area affect damage, but no strategy is without weakness, and the offensive potential is significant.

Remember that D&D is, by default, balanced around party level adventuring. Ie, 4 to 6 guys working on their own, and the necromancy options in the PHB are balanced around that paradigm. Within that default scope, in a game where combat relevant, all-day spell effects, especially ones that don't take concentration or require round by round actions, are extremely rare, and the existing undead creation and control spells are very powerful, even before you count the extra buffs coming from being a Wizard Necromancer.

No, they don't work for raising armies of the undead, but armies of the undead don't belong in party level adventures any more than armies of the living. At some point I would like to see official 5e options for raising and commanding armies of the undead, but those options belong in an optional mass battle supplement along with rules for PCs commanding armies of all sorts.


I would like to see the options for PC necromancy expanded, yes. In particular, I'd like to see changes to the Animate Dead spell allowing for the creation of the other assorted types of skeletons and zombies in the monster manual, upcasting for the stronger ones as appropriate. I'd also love to see transformative Prestige Classes allowing PCs to become Vampires or Liches. I'd also love to see an ethereal-undead themed class, perhaps a "shadowcaster" variant of sorcerer or Warlock that animate their own shadow as an incorporeal pet that scales with level, and maybe a 'summon monster' esque line of summon undead spells to let PCs have temporary use of the sorts of undead that wouldn't work as permanent puppets.

I think there's just tons and tons of conceptual depth to necromancy that is currently mostly going untapped in 5th edition, and with the agonizingly slow release rate of 5e supplements I doubt we'll ever see any of it. But while I would like to see more necromancy options, I really don't think there need to be stronger ones.

[Shining Wrath]

Compare the power of a small army of skeleton's to a Beastmaster Ranger's companion.

Then stop complaining.

[JNAProductions]

Did someone ask for a Lich Prestige Class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426387-Lich-Prestige-Class)?

[Theodoxus]

I have a player who's been wanting to play a necromancer for a long time - we settled on a gestalt Necromancer/Undying Warlock - which I think brings the flavor along quite nicely. She also wanted to explore the 3.5 Dread Necromancer and associated feats. But we toned that down after the gestalt discussion.

I'm going to be adding new spells that create larger sized mindless undead - in a previous PF game, she played a cleric that animated a couple of dead half-ogres into Bloody Skeletons, and we both would like something that would replicate the feeling, if not the exact abilities. She also wanted pets - so I'm thinking of modifying the old Crawling Hand spell for 5E, as well as few other surprises.

This discussion has given me some ideas though - both for and against the party. The necromancer is going to find a disembodied head in a box (a bit like the doctor from Z Nation, if you've seen it). Originally, I was going to have him be a lich who discovered immortality, but botched the spell and it only affected his head - but now I think I'll make him a Oathbreaker Paladin - the shenanigans around why her undead are stronger than she anticipated will be amusing for me.

I like the idea of one of their protagonists be a Necromancer/Oathbreaker combo - bolstered by stronger than normal undead - perhaps that's where she'll get the spells for giant skeletons and the like... Given that she wants to be less like a Army General and more like Michone and her zombie body guards, fewer but stronger takes precedence over just mass quantities. (Although having an antagonist with mass quantities would make a decent counterpoint to the necromancer wars.)

I like this discussion!