Non musical bard

[TundraBuccaneer]

Im dming a game in which a player is playing a bard. But he doesn't want to play an actual bard he mainly wants to be a skill monkey with a bunch of practicle spells.
But the bard class is disigned to be a entertainer type person whos learned to create magic with music. And all he wants to do is snap his fingers for every spell he does. And he says that should take care of both vocal and somatic componands. Even while I try to explain that vocal is with you voice and somatic are big gestures with atleast one hand or by playing your instrument.
I would prefer to just let him play this character but it kind of rustles my jimmies.

Can I get any advise with this?

[Tabarkus]

I think a non-musical bard is certainly possible. To me story-tellers and orators both can easily be considered bards. I've not read any where in the rules that a bard has to use a musical instrument in casting their spells, only that they can. Though I would agree that spells requiring a vocal component do require either voice (spoken or sung) or music. I think of bards as learning magic by hearing the rhythms of the words in spell casting. I have many times heard singers sing in foreign languages which they don't understand but still sing them beautifully.

While the snapping of fingers is certainly musical, in my campaign I would say a single snap is inadequate to manifest the nuances of magical power necessary to cast a spell (maybe a cantrip). It would have to be a complex series of finger snapping to cast most spells.

Consider a Valor Bard fighting sword and shield with the warcaster feat (off the top of my head, I believe this is the correct feat) would he have to stow his sword and shield to pull out his drum or lute to cast a spell?

[Winter_Wolf]

Oratory is definitely interesting. Maybe the particular way the story of Hrolf Trollslayer is told is actually the spell. Greek epic poetry was all iambic pentameter after all. It's certainly easier for an English speaker such as myself to read a saga in prose rather than verse. I'm stealing that guy's character idea.

[Fri]

I've played a bard who use inspirational speech as her buffing bardic song, and vicious mockeries as her debuffing bardic songs.

Though not technically using default bardic music, snowflake wardance bards in 3.5 basically use perform: dance in battles.

Oratory bard seems rather common as well.

So yeah, non musical bards definitely exist. Though I'd say there should definitely some performance factor there. Even oratory is performance.

[Temperjoke]

Bards can use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus for their spells, but they don't have to. Make sure that you don't confuse a Bard and the Entertainer background, because they can be different. Think of a Bard humming, or playing an instrument, as the same thing as a wizard chanting spell words. That is their mode of spellcasting. Music is varied too. Rhythmic chanting can count, stomping your feet in a pattern, it's not just some guy in tights and poofy sleeves strumming a harp. It might also be that the player thinks you're going to make him sing in front of the table to be allowed to cast his spells, which I can understand not wanting to do that.

[Tanarii]

Without refluffing here's the rules:

He gets three musical instrument proficiencies. He starts with one in his starting equipment, provided you use default as opposed to rolling cash. It's up to him if he ever wants to use it for anything. He can sell it at his first opportunity if he likes.

Spells with a V component require him to be able to use his voice. There's no requirement that he sing. It can be described as a single short word or noise if liked.

Spells with an S component require him to have a free hand. There's no requirement for specific gestures. It can easily be described as snapping ones fingers.

Spells with an M component require a free hand. They also require that the free hand be used to manipulate the M component, a material component pouch, or a focus. For a Bard, he can use the musical instrument as the focus if he so chooses, but does not have to.

So under the default rules, he's fine with snapping fingers to cast S-component spells, so long as he also speaks for V-component spells, and uses a component pouch or specific M-component for M-component spells. Of course, there's no requirement to describe how he does his S or V components at all unless he particularly wants to. Nor any requirement that they're described the same way every time he casts the same spell.

[Townopolis]

I've never tried it myself, but I recall plenty of people on these forums suggesting that you could allow an arcane trickster rogue to select any two wizard schools (instead of restricting them to illusion and enchantment) and it would be fine. If you can't abide him using the bard class without RPing a bard, you might suggest that.

I guess some other things, if he ends up using the bard class:

Song of rest, by the description, has what amounts to a verbal component.
Giving someone Bardic Inspiration also requires basically a verbal component
Same with Countercharm

None of these have to be musical or theatrical. They can all just be him reciting words of power or whatever, but he is going to have to make a lot of noise.

To more directly answer the question, I don't think there's an inherent problem with letting him use the bard class without RPing a musician/entertainer/poet provided he does adhere to the broad requirements of using all the abilities. For most abilities, that means he's going to have to vocalize something and it's going to be relatively obvious to everyone that he's using some sort of magical power or extraordinary ability. Also, he can't cast spells while wearing armor he isn't proficient in, material components must be supplied or replaced with a component pouch or instrument*, and so on and so forth. Most of those are universal to casters and aren't specific to bards. In fact, no caster in 5e can just snap their fingers for all their spells.

Actually, the fact that he "just wants to snap his fingers for all his spells" indicates to me that he might be new to D&D in general. In which case, I would say that helping him learn the rules in general (such as how spell components work) and figuring out how to mesh his playstyle with the rest of the table should take priority over enforcing a class' flavor, at least for his first campaign.

*one thing I think you could & might want to change is replacing musical instruments with, say, wands as an option for his arcane implement.

[Levism84]

I have to agree with a lot of the previous comments. Orator bard is certainly a valid build. As suggested above, if I were DM, I would probably remove the instrument proficiencies and maybe replace them with language or tool proficiencies that fit the build a little better. I wouldn't chance the musical instrument spell focus, just stick with spell component pouch, but I would encourage him to RP by making up short situation stories that reflect how he doles out Bardic Inspiration. Sort of like a MacGyver monologue.

I would definitely clarify with him what somatic and verbal components are since he seems to be confused. Reading the section about the Weave in the PHB would be a good place to start, since it explains how spellcasters "pluck" at the strings of the Weave in various ways using words, gestures, and material components to set magical energies into motion.

[Falcon X]

The important thing is to have something that explains how you use bardic inspiration.

Possible solutions:
Bard of Swords (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/kits-old)This version of the bard focuses his inspiration inwards to enhance himself. Thus it needs not be an outward performance. You could explain it as a mantra, a god-given inspiration, or other thing.
Loremaster: Your inspiration comes in the form of shouting advice to allies. You could either be viewed as that annoying guy, or a wise teacher. Regardless, this requires no performance.
Mystical approach: Bardic Inspiration is taken as more of a ranged Guidance cantrip. Something you do quickly and magically gives an ally a little extra adrenaline, divine guidance, or other flavor. This could also be flavored as some kind of psychic link with people you travel with and "attune" to. Take a few levels in Old One Warlock for added effect.

I would also like to point out that what you are looking for is what the old 3.5 Beguiler (http://dndtools.pw/classes/beguiler/) class did: A full spellcaster who focuses on illusions, enchantments, and manipulations who also has a broad range of skills and can do it all subtly.
It was almost certainly an inspiration to our 5e Bard and you should be able to flavor it back to that concept. You could easily homebrew a subclass with the inspiration going to Surprise casting, silent spell, and still spell.
If homebrew isn't your thing, think of inspiration as little sleight of hand tricks you do to manipulate the battlefield.

[hawklost]

In a Campaign I was in the DM allowed the following for a non-musical bard.

The bard carried around a Book (specific book was "Travelers Tails") and when they cast something that required a Focus or they used Bardic Inspiration they had to be 'reading' from the book.

The player would do things like open the book up and read a 'passage' from it for his material components like 'Lo, and the Servant came but was unseen by all" to cast Unseen Sevant.

It was quite amusing to see what he would come up with when he was casting his spells since he would always speak it out as if telling a story instead of casting a spell

Vicious Mockery might be "... as sweet poured from his brow and stung his eyes... " 'Take 2 psychic damage'

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's worth noting that one of the biggest differences between the 5E Bard and earlier editions' Bard classes is that none of the 5E Bard's class features actually require a Performance skill check to use at all. (Yes, you can create a playable 5E Bard without proficiency in the Perform skill. Sad, but true.) So I'd have no problem at all with a Bard in 5E who doesn't sing and/or dance. He can inspire his allies by reciting epic sagas instead. Or filthy limericks for all I care. As long as he follows the basic rules for spellcasting and doesn't try to break the game with that "my Bard is different" line, it's all good.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Im dming a game in which a player is playing a bard. But he doesn't want to play an actual bard he mainly wants to be a skill monkey with a bunch of practicle spells.
But the bard class is disigned to be a entertainer type person whos learned to create magic with music. And all he wants to do is snap his fingers for every spell he does. And he says that should take care of both vocal and somatic componands. Even while I try to explain that vocal is with you voice and somatic are big gestures with atleast one hand or by playing your instrument.
I would prefer to just let him play this character but it kind of rustles my jimmies.

Can I get any advise with this?


Probably something like this...

http://i64.tinypic.com/2jb7d4g.jpg

You can find the best lines on YouTube.

[Steampunkette]

Fluff is irrelevant, only crunch matters. Let him describe his bard whatever way be wants. Personally I wanna make a sword college bard and completely ignore the whole musical or performance aspect in favor of just making a swashbuckling heroine with a broad floppy hat!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Fluff is irrelevant, only crunch matters. Let him describe his bard whatever way be wants. Personally I wanna make a sword college bard and completely ignore the whole musical or performance aspect in favor of just making a swashbuckling heroine with a broad floppy hat!

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/3738690.jpg

[KiltieMacPipes]

I'm playing a non-musical Valor Bard (Jack) in a game right now. He's fluffed like a wandering mercenary who picks up "tricks" on his travels. Used a homebrewed version of the Sage background that's more like a hands-on sociologist than a bookworm. Talked the DM into letting me trade the instrument proficiencies for more languages. As for refluffing bardic inspiration, we didn't even bother. Mechanically it's exactly the same, but nothing overt happens in game and Jack, a big follower of Tymora, just assumes that he and the party get lucky sometimes. "Stirring words" is pretty vague, and could easily be satisfied with "Let's do this". Nowhere does it say that the stirring words or music have to continue for the whole time.

All that said, he pretty much just plays like an old edition fighter/mage.

[Thisguy_]

The vocal component could be pretty simple as long as it is noticeable, or subtle enough if it makes sufficient noise. A vocal component is assumed mechanically to be clearly recognizable as the source of a magical effect in the fifth edition, so if he wants to LITERALLY just snap his fingers, if you're okay with it, the mechanics can fit his character concept and everyone will have a wonderful time.

Maybe he just snaps his fingers loudly, and the will takes over the shaping while the "word" provides the energy. Bards are performers, after all, and so maybe not every bard has to use his or her hands to manipulate the Weave. That said, the (possibly literal) snapping of fingers MUST satisfy the requirement that anything on the lookout for it will rapidly recognize them as a magical effect.


A possible compromise I can see is that, having been given so little to form an image out of, the immediate image my mind settled on for his character was that of a stage magician. Perhaps he could go so far as to make up a couple lines and, at least implicitly if not actually by saying them, have his character speak those lines during spellcasting. The phrases don't even need to make sense; if you need inspiration, check out Erfworld or Bleach for incantations in different styles. Seems an incantation would make you happy, and if he can find an incantation style that suits him, perhaps the problem could be solved. If not happy, at least everyone could be satisfied.

EDIT: If that sort of thing were meaningful to you, I could tell you what I'd do: complain a bit (or a lot), but get used to my rustled bits and let him have his fun (whilst mechanically enforcing it as though he were casting with the "Weave" spellcasting style that is assumed by the mechanics of vocal spells).

[Clistenes]

If he doesn't want the bard to be a musician, just call the bard a loremaster truenamer, and say that he or she needs to speak the true names in order to work his/her magic. The mechanics are the same as singing.

Don't allow him to replace singing with finger snapping. Remind him that most spellcasters, bards or not, need to speak most spell aloud.

[Addaran]

Just let him play some kind of rogue/mage or fighter/mage conceptually while mechanically being a bard. Use most of the sugggestion here (replace music proficiency with languages or tools, V component being just magical words like wizard, S component a bit more elaborate maybe one finger snap per lvl of the spell)

For uses of inspiration, just pretend it's a buff spell, like guidance. Countercharm and Song of rest would be you mumbling over and over some arcane words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgEnsTQwZW4

[hellspawnfish]

My current bard is more of an arcane researcher. She speaks arcane formulae and words of power at people to affect magic (spells/countercharm) and bend their luck (inspiration/cutting words).

You have to use your voice and you have to move. That's it.

[Sam113097]

Wizards of the Coast released a bard "kit" called the College of the Blades http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf

It focuses on combat more that a regulate bard, and it's performances are just intricate bits of swordplay.

[ThatKreacher]

There's fluff about bards tuning into the primordial Words of Creation, so that right there is something you can latch onto and run with, especially in regards to truenamer stuff.

[Tanarii]

Maybe he just snaps his fingers loudly, Gunshot crack finger snaps. :smallsmile:

[KorvinStarmast]

Im dming a game in which a player is playing a bard. But he doesn't want to play an actual bard he mainly wants to be a skill monkey with a bunch of practicle spells.
But the bard class is disigned to be a entertainer type person whos learned to create magic with music. And all he wants to do is snap his fingers for every spell he does. And he says that should take care of both vocal and somatic componands. Even while I try to explain that vocal is with you voice and somatic are big gestures with atleast one hand or by playing your instrument.
I would prefer to just let him play this character but it kind of rustles my jimmies.

Can I get any advise with this?
You can do poetry without music. Poets and poetry are very much in a bard's wheelhouse. Rhyme or haiku as a verbal component fits like a glove, don't you think?

[Arkhios]

You can do poetry without music. Poets and poetry are very much in a bard's wheelhouse. Rhyme or haiku as a verbal component fits like a glove, don't you think?

Or you could let him get-go with cheesy lines of limericks or jokes. That's stand-up comedy if anything, and they're as much bards as the occasional troubadours on stage!

[Thisguy_]

Gunshot crack finger snaps. :smallsmile:

If I wanted to do a literal snap-your-fingers spellcaster, I would have the most fun if he were as powerful as a speaking spellcaster, not moreso, so while I and the DM would agree that the fluff is that he just snaps his fingers, mechanically the agreement is that he may as well be speaking when it comes to being detected, people noticing he's magic, yaddah yaddah. We'd have the most fun that way at the table I play at, but your mileage may vary.

So yeah. Gunshot fingersnaps, ho!

[Joe the Rat]

Whatever else you do with it, Vicious Mockery uses insults as its Verbal component.

Of course, you could use insults for all the verbal requirements. Cutting Words... Bardic Inspiration... Healing Word...

[Randomthom]

A friend once challenged me to come up with a viable non-silly Barbarian/Bard multiclass (this was in PF).

I gave him 2.

The Skald is the obvious one, the nordic battle-chanter.

My other, a character I later ended up playing was a Maori-like warrior, deadly serious, very scary, crazy-high intimidate score but didn't care much for subtleties or niceties. Think Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy but doing the Haka. (If you don't know what the Haka is, youtube it. New Zealand All-Blacks Rugby Haka.)

The latter was also a cool character because it was a bard that did not serve as the party's 'face' so successfully avoiding two stereotypes, we had a Paladin Archer who did that stuff.

[Finieous]

If he doesn't want the bard to be a musician, just call the bard a loremaster truenamer, and say that he or she needs to speak the true names in order to work his/her magic. The mechanics are the same as singing.

Don't allow him to replace singing with finger snapping. Remind him that most spellcasters, bards or not, need to speak most spell aloud.


My current bard is more of an arcane researcher. She speaks arcane formulae and words of power at people to affect magic (spells/countercharm) and bend their luck (inspiration/cutting words).

You have to use your voice and you have to move. That's it.


There's fluff about bards tuning into the primordial Words of Creation, so that right there is something you can latch onto and run with, especially in regards to truenamer stuff.

My "bard" for an upcoming campaign is a thief (criminal background) who stole a book called True Names of Secret Things from a well-appointed townhouse owned by some crazy old man and is learning all sorts of interesting tricks from it. If he ever came across a lute or harp, he'd just try to fence it.

[N810]

You should make a bard that uses a mace and has a gong as a shield. :nale:

http://www.kshs.org/cool3/graphics/gong.jpg

[Hudsonian]

Think about how you DM, if you often use the components of spellcasting to create limitations for the characters to overcome, then this character concept would be able to side step them too easily. If you don't pay much attention to all of that, Would it actually change what you require of the character? If it doesn't change anything in a practical, mechanical way based off of how you run the game, then it is just a bit of fluff.

[MBControl]

I have two "non-musical" bards.

The first is basically a bad bard, and my only multiclassed PC. Without going deep into his backstory, he is a half-orc barbarian who wants to impress a beautiful female bard, and figures becoming a bard will accomplish the task. This however won't allow the "skill monkey" outcome your player desires.

The second is a skilled bard, though not a great performer. He is a member of a bardic order, but he has become a highly skilled maker of instruments, and desires to make the finest magical instruments for his bardic order. Your character may still be required to RP the bard more than they want, but it will allow you to be more forgiving with the depth of the RP.

[darkrose50]

Best Anna from Frozen voice: "You can do it skull-splitter, I know you can!"

[Ashrym]

Sounds like the OP and the player are both caught in a cliche image of bards. They have used the term "song" in the past and present but called out in various editions that it's an interchangeable term with other effects. There's no difference between a Bard chanting the words of a spell or a Witch Doctor chanting the words of a spell. Chanting is chanting and verbal components are verbal components. As mentioned a couple of times, bards don't need to even take perform. The historical bard learned in that manner as a mnemonic enhancer to aid memory. Music makes a musician but that's not what makes a bard a bard; it's a bigger package than that.

What the player should do is find a character with similar traits whom he enjoys and might wish to replicate, and apply the bard class to build it. Keep in mind that bards encompass a lot of different tropes so don't get caught in the cliche. Different examples might be Kvothe (Kingkiller Chronicles), John Constantine (Hellblazer), Peter Quill (Guardians of the Galaxy), or Brom (Eragon). These are all different characters but each can be portrayed with the bard class.

Example 1 -- John Constantine: Constantine is a seeker of knowledge. He practices ritual magic, relies on his wit and charm, relies on skills like manipulation and escapology, is seriously not above insulting people (cutting words), and while he has been known to fight directly a bit it's not his strong suit. Constantine is a powerful magic user but relies on skills and knowledge. He would fit a lore bard. A person might ask about the musical aspect of the bard and John Constantine. Constantine used to be part of a band. That was the culture with which he was involved as he first started to learn about real magic. It's simply not a big focus. Constantine has also been portrayed casting spells with words and gestures, or also very occasionally with musical notes to depict a lyrical spell. He's even been accused of stealing magic from others. He very much fits one style of loremaster.

Example 2 -- Brom: This one is more and less straight forward. Brom casts spells using the correct names of things. He practices swordplay, uses woodcraft, relies on guile, etc. The important aspect of Brom is that he's a teacher and advisor, which is a typical bard trait. He's also a bit different in that he doesn't perform with musical instruments and songs so much. He's actually a storyteller instead. The storyteller is a traditional adventuring type of character that fits the game well and falls with the Bard tropes. Brom tells the tales of the Dragonriders to maintain that history and inspire a new generation of Dragonriders with the stories of the old heroes. That's very much a valor bard.

It was mentioned earlier that your player can use a spell component pouch instead of a musical instrument as a focus. It's really as easy as doing that, going with a voice of power or commanding presence for the inspiration and song fluff, and picking an appropriate character to pattern after.

Hope that helps.

[Arkhios]

One thing I'd like to point out, in case people are misinterpreting it:


Spellcasting Focus
You can use a musical instrument (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your bard spells.

Nowhere in the class' spellcasting does the rules say that a bard (or any class at that matter) must use a spellcasting focus to cast their spells.



Components
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry.
A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand he or she uses to perform somatic components.

As written, each character that can cast spells, regardless of class, can simply obtain a component pouch, and cast the spells exactly the same manner as everyone else. A bard doesn't have to play a lute to cast a bard spell, he can simply word out the verbal components and do some gestures while holding a possible material component in hand. Simple as that.

[rollingForInit]

Im dming a game in which a player is playing a bard. But he doesn't want to play an actual bard he mainly wants to be a skill monkey with a bunch of practicle spells.
But the bard class is disigned to be a entertainer type person whos learned to create magic with music. And all he wants to do is snap his fingers for every spell he does. And he says that should take care of both vocal and somatic componands. Even while I try to explain that vocal is with you voice and somatic are big gestures with atleast one hand or by playing your instrument.
I would prefer to just let him play this character but it kind of rustles my jimmies.

Can I get any advise with this?

I'm playing a Bard that's Intelligence-based (replace all Charisma-based bard mechanics with Intelligence). He entertains by being something of a riddle-master. He tells clever stories, riddles, puzzles, etc. A more ... sophistacated bard. He does not sing or dance. He casts spells by speaking words of power that he's discovered by meticulous study.

As for your player's spellcasting ... snapping your fingers should count as a somatic components, in my opinion. You can't do that while holding a sword. The verbal components need to be used, but they don't have to be songs. They can be spoken words, or even something like a whistle.