How to craft art objects? Determining cost/value?

[flamewolf393]

How does this work, how much does raw material (wood or stone) cost, and how do you determine the value of the final item?

[Jack_Simth]

How does this work, how much does raw material (wood or stone) cost, and how do you determine the value of the final item?

The DC isn't clear, but the Craft Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) make it pretty clear that materials cost 1/3 the value of the final item. Art objects have random values (DMG page 55, table 3-7), so either the artist sets the value, or you roll it when you pick the one to make.

[flamewolf393]

The 1/3 rule makes no sense for art objects, the base material is just the base material, the skill of the artist should determine value. You can have a block of stone, an amateur will make something near worthless, but a master could make something priceless, for the same base material cost.

[LTwerewolf]

It's not RAW at all, but I have the value based very low on art until the person gains fame, where it starts to gain value at same fame levels.

[martixy]

The 1/3 rule makes no sense for art objects, the base material is just the base material, the skill of the artist should determine value. You can have a block of stone, an amateur will make something near worthless, but a master could make something priceless, for the same base material cost.

That is true, but the only authoritative answer one who is not the DM can deliver to such a question is by definition the RAW.

Past that, it's all just speculation, but if this is what you wish - you could introduce some kind of Fame system as LTwerewolf mentioned.
I am aware of one such for PF based around adventuring, but a similar idea could work for artisans and artists.

Fame points could be gained for achieving certain things:
Things like getting your art hanged in a noble's court or in a museum.
Succeeding on a particularly difficult Craft check.
Being the protege of a famous artist.
Training a famous protege.
Opening/teaching in a famous art college.
Having a piece of art sold for a large amount of money.
Being endorsed by paragon of your art.
Heck, even having your creation stolen might speak to it being valuable, and thus gaining you fame.

[MisterKaws]

I'd rule that you'd have to choose the price before starting to 'craft' the art. Effectively, this means you're setting how elaborate is the item, and this would add to the base price and base DCs, then you can use any rules to sell it higher, taking in consideration that an art specialist would be automatically friendly in relation to negotiations on art.
Thing is: you shouldn't be getting crazy x123141231421 gold when selling a single item you didn't even waste 2 gp, good art takes long to prepare, so you have to follow the normal craft rules.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a set of guidelines for this in either races of stone or races of the wild, IIRC.

[Calimehter]

There's a set of guidelines for this in either races of stone or races of the wild, IIRC.

Races of Stone has it in the skills section. There is quite a lot there, though most of it focuses on performance art - heckling and concentrating (vs. heckling) as well as simply crafting. The Craft section covers written and performance works, but could easily expand to cover sculpture and painting.

Really, though, the Craft skill check to make art basically boils down to using the normal Craft rules and just setting the times/DCs to whatever GP value you elect to target. There are no rules to represent crafting something that no one else with the same ranks of Craft couldn't also create (i.e. unique masterpieces). Applying the economics rules from the 3.0 A&EG to cover the art from specific regions or even people (i.e. paintings made in city X are more valuable because there is a master painter or a famous school of painting there) would add that element, and is probably good enough for most games, but it is kind of an arbitrary GM-dependent game mechanic.

[vasilidor]

To me the 1/3 cost rule never made sense at all. Of course the cost of a longbow and the cost of a crossbow doesn't either. historically the crossbow cost more and was more difficult to make. just easier to train with. Well ok, maybe from a game balance orientation, but i have a habit of looking at medieval weaponry from a more historic view point.

[Âmesang]

I can sort of see the ⅓ material cost representing not just the cost of the materials but the quality of it, too. I mean, if I were to illustrate one of my characters with crayons, well, it's not going to look too good, is it?

Even colored pencils is marginally better, but if you're looking to make a masterpiece painting it could be argued that you won't be grabbing just any old paints — you'd be obtaining paints crafted by the greatest elven or fey manufacturers. They'll cost more, but in the hands of a skilled artisan will produce a finer product; likewise for a sculptor utilizing the finest grain and hardest stone or metal.

…but then I have a bad habit of trying to fit flavor/reality to the rules and not vice versa. :smallconfused:

[Jack_Simth]

I can sort of see the ⅓ material cost representing not just the cost of the materials but the quality of it, too. I mean, if I were to illustrate one of my characters with crayons, well, it's not going to look too good, is it?

Even colored pencils is marginally better, but if you're looking to make a masterpiece painting it could be argued that you won't be grabbing just any old paints — you'd be obtaining paints crafted by the greatest elven or fey manufacturers. They'll cost more, but in the hands of a skilled artisan will produce a finer product; likewise for a sculptor utilizing the finest grain and hardest stone or metal.

…but then I have a bad habit of trying to fit flavor/reality to the rules and not vice versa. :smallconfused:
And, of course, with something like carving stone, a more expensive piece is also going to require finer detail... which means tools with narrower striking surfaces... which means a greater chance of breakage. These can be subsumed in 'materials' costs, no problem.

[MisterKaws]

To me the 1/3 cost rule never made sense at all. Of course the cost of a longbow and the cost of a crossbow doesn't either. historically the crossbow cost more and was more difficult to make. just easier to train with. Well ok, maybe from a game balance orientation, but i have a habit of looking at medieval weaponry from a more historic view point.

Good longbows take a lot of time to make, the english ones could take near two years, probably because the wood needs to be treated correctly so it doesn't break.