How long will Blackwing live?

[Euclidodese]

I don't mean 'how long until the rats finish killing him,' I mean 'how long is his life expectancy?'

I apologise profusely for my noobishness, I've never played Dungeons and Dragons because I don't have any dice... Or friends to play with...

But I found myself thinking (which is a rare occurrence) do familiars live as long as their masters, or just as long as other members of their races? I did a bit of Googling, and I found loads of pictures of cats with humorous captions...
Then I did some more Googling, but this time instead of typing in: 'funny cats,' I typed in: 'Dnd how long do familiars live,' and while this second search got me closer to the mark than the first, I still couldn't get a definite answer one way or another...

So what say you, people blessed with both dice and friends, will Blackwing live, as other ravens do, 10 or so years, a period almost insignificant to his centuries-spanning Elf master, who presumably would have to replace him dozens of times over zer lifespan. Or will he live as long as V, many times longer than his fellow ravens?

[Keltest]

There is no hard and fast rule for death of familiar by old age, but if I were DMing, I would say that the familiar will live as long as its wizard's natural lifespan. Otherwise having a familiar would be a serious detriment for any long-lived wizard, as they take permanent HP damage when one dies, and no exception is made for old age.

[Mx56]

Otherwise having a familiar would be a serious detriment for any long-lived wizard, as they take permanent HP damage when one dies, and no exception is made for old age.
Don't know about other editions or Pathfinder, but that's not the case in 3.5 D&D. They'd lose XP (200 per level, fort half DC 15), but for a high level caster that's trivial, you could get that back in a couple of appropriately leveled encounters, if I'm remembering my 3.5 rules rightly.

[Keltest]

Don't know about other editions or Pathfinder, but that's not the case in 3.5 D&D. They'd lose XP (200 per level, fort half DC 15), but for a high level caster that's trivial, you could get that back in a couple of appropriately leveled encounters, if I'm remembering my 3.5 rules rightly.

Huh. So it is. Theres at least one edition where familiar death causes permanent physical damage to the wizard.

[factotum]

Yeah, this is one of those things that isn't covered by the rules because in 99.99% of campaigns it would be irrelevant--the entire campaign is not likely to last long enough for the lifespan of the familiar to be relevant. Also bear in mind that a common raven can live more than 20 years in the wild, so it's not like we would be expecting Blackwing to pop his clogs imminently even if he weren't V's familiar.

[veti]

Also bear in mind that a common raven can live more than 20 years in the wild.

And that's in the wild. Quasi-domesticated ravens, like those at the Tower of London, can live twice that long. Still not very long compared with an elf, though.

I've always thought that a familiar who goes adventuring with its master should have approximately the life expectancy of a glass hammer anyway. Familiars should be left at home, guarding the lab/castle/room/chest/den/whatever.

[KorvinStarmast]

How long will Blackwing live?

Long enough to become an hors d'ouvre ... hopefully.
Theres at least one edition where familiar death causes permanent physical damage to the wizard.
That began in 1e. It isn't true in 3.5 nor in 5e.

I recall 1e familiar death being traumatic for a Magic User. Our DM required a Restoration spell or Wish to restore those HP, but I don't think that the official position was anything that formal. Will need to look at my old 1e PHB and DMG.

[Goosefarble]

That began in 1e. It isn't true in 3.5 nor in 5e.

I recall 1e familiar death being traumatic for a Magic User. Our DM required a Restoration spell or Wish to restore those HP, but I don't think that the official position was anything that formal. Will need to look at my old 1e PHB and DMG.

That's pretty neat. I've never heard that before but I kind of like the concept. Reminds me a little of the daemons from His Dark Materials getting hurt when their humans get hurt, and vice versa.

[veti]

I recall 1e familiar death being traumatic for a Magic User. Our DM required a Restoration spell or Wish to restore those HP, but I don't think that the official position was anything that formal. Will need to look at my old 1e PHB and DMG.

As I recall, the HP were officially "lost permanently". It seems reasonable that a Restoration or Wish could get them back, but that's mostly academic given the difficulty of scoring either of those spells in a 1e world.

Does anyone know of a game setting based on His Dark Materials? Killing a daemon should result in the immediate, permanent, no-saving-throw death of its human, and vice-versa.

[Deliverance]

I don't know whether there is a clear instruction on this from RAW these days, but in the past the rules were silent on this issue, telling you that the familiars gained certain specific new powers, and I always treated familiars as NOT having extended life spans rather than granting them additional powers over and above what was listed.

Also consider this:

Given that it requires significant magic for a wizard to extend his own lifespan or that of others by magic, why would a normal beast becoming a wizard's familiar and gaining magic powers by a ritual that every lowlevel wizard can perform extend the lifespan of the familiar?

If becoming a familiar did increase longevity, then every practical minded wizard would be devoting research to new forms of the spell/ritual for summoning a familiar in order for wizards to make familiars of each other, their loved ones, or themselves. :smallbiggrin:

[Morquard]

Not sure how it's in 3.5 or any other DnD edition, but in PF Familiars actually become Magical Beasts upon becoming Familiars, so they're no simple animals anymore. That maybe is all the explanation you need for them living longer.

Also, one could simply argue, that they're lifespan is now prolonged because they're lifeforce is now directly linked to the wizard's. When the wizard dies, the familiar doesn't die with him, but he reverts back to a normal animal relatively fast (24 hours I believe), so it's close enough. And now imagine a housecat that's been a familiar for 100 years? Does time simply catch up and it dies on the spot, or does it resume it's animal life at the point where it stopped being one 100 years ago?

So yes, some necromancy-themed evil wizards might have found a relatively low level spell of siphoning someone elses lifeforce to prolong their own? It would be pretty evil though

[Kareasint]

How long will Blackwing live?

Long enough to become an hors d'ouvre ... hopefully.
That began in 1e. It isn't true in 3.5 nor in 5e.

I recall 1e familiar death being traumatic for a Magic User. Our DM required a Restoration spell or Wish to restore those HP, but I don't think that the official position was anything that formal. Will need to look at my old 1e PHB and DMG.

1st edition: The Wizard loses double the familiar's hit point permanently when the Familiar dies.

2nd Edition: System Shock check required when the familiar dies. Failure results in DEATH of the Wizard. Success still means that the Wizard loses one point of Constitution permanently. I never saw a familiar used in this edition.

They toned it down for 3E and up.

[Rift_Wolf]

The way I've always thought of familiars are they're bonded to their masters. They aren't separate Creatures; Witness Blackwing getting dragged to hell along with V because their souls are joined. Therefore a familiar would live as long as it's master; returning from death messes up the simplicity of this idea, however. I liked the idea of permanent Con drain (think it was 2e, maybe Balders Gate) to reflect this; a Wizard invests some of his life force into a familiar, and if that bond is cut, he loses a portion of his soul.

I remember a Pathfinder campaign that dealt with a familiar who'd outlived his master, but our dm treated it as a Luckstone, deeming any exploration of an idea beyond 'Raise the number! Hit the thing!' as useless fluff.

[KorvinStarmast]

1st edition: The Wizard loses double the familiar's hit point permanently when the Familiar dies.

2nd Edition: System Shock check required when the familiar dies. Failure results in DEATH of the Wizard. Success still means that the Wizard loses one point of Constitution permanently. I never saw a familiar used in this edition.

They toned it down for 3E and up.Thanks, I just dug up the ref. I had forgotten that you could only cast it once per game year in 1e.

I like how they did it in 5e, which is establish that the familiar is a spirit that comes in the form of a creature.

[littlebum2002]

Don't know about other editions or Pathfinder, but that's not the case in 3.5 D&D. They'd lose XP (200 per level, fort half DC 15), but for a high level caster that's trivial, you could get that back in a couple of appropriately leveled encounters, if I'm remembering my 3.5 rules rightly.


Huh. So it is. Theres at least one edition where familiar death causes permanent physical damage to the wizard.

It may be trivial...once or twice. However, since the average lifespan of a raven is ~10 years, and the average elf starts performing magic at around ~140 and dies of old age at around ~550, this means that your average elf wizard will have to go through about 41 familiars during their lifetime, in which case the XP loss is certainly not trivial.

It gets even worse when you realize the average lifespan of a rat is ~2 years and therefore our elf wizard would go through 205 familiars during their lifetime.

[kaoskonfety]

It may be trivial...once or twice. However, since the average lifespan of a raven is ~10 years, and the average elf starts performing magic at around ~140 and dies of old age at around ~550, this means that your average elf wizard will have to go through about 41 familiars during their lifetime, in which case the XP loss is certainly not trivial.

It gets even worse when you realize the average lifespan of a rat is ~2 years and therefore our elf wizard would go through 205 familiars during their lifetime.

Not seeing any hard rules in D&D 3rd on the subject at a glance, which is odd. I'd assume the take on the casters lifespan, dying within a few days of their master (Ars Magica goes this route and the Order treats assault on a wizards familiar more seriously than attacking a wizards apprentice). Otherwise, as outlined, taking a brief lifespan familiar on a long lifespan race is somewhere between "a poor choice" and "very stupid"

[KorvinStarmast]

Not seeing any hard rules in D&D 3rd on the subject at a glance, which is odd. I'd assume the take on the casters lifespan, dying within a few days of their master (Ars Magica goes this route and the Order treats assault on a wizards familiar more seriously than attacking a wizards apprentice). Otherwise, as outlined, taking a brief lifespan familiar on a long lifespan race is somewhere between "a poor choice" and "very stupid" Could you not just "set a familiar free" and then summon another one to replace it?
Don't have clear idea on 3.5 rules either way.

[Pyrous]

Could you not just "set a familiar free" and then summon another one to replace it?
Don't have clear idea on 3.5 rules either way.

The sorcerer/wizard gets the same penalty if the familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar) dies or is dismissed. They can only replace it after a year and a day.

[kaoskonfety]

Could you not just "set a familiar free" and then summon another one to replace it?
Don't have clear idea on 3.5 rules either way.

Taking a glance, dismissing has the same penalty. You can do so when you have the ability to buff for Con save I suppose? Still kinda sucks - not "awful" but kinda a kick in the nuts.

[grandpheonix]

My two cents:

As a DM, I would treat the animal as magical, and as long as it isnt slaughtered in combat, or dying of VD, then sure, it will live as long as the caster it is bonded with. Same goes for animal companions as well. But once released from the druid/ ranger/ Hunter's side, the animal continues aging from the moment the bond was created.

[littlebum2002]

My two cents:

As a DM, I would treat the animal as magical, and as long as it isnt slaughtered in combat, or dying of VD,

Does VD mean something other than what I think it means? Because the VD I'm thinking of doesn't really pop up much in D&D games.

[grandpheonix]

Nah. VD means what you think. Otherwise, whats the point of remove disease?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Mummy rot? Rot grubs? Gangrene?

[Rift_Wolf]

This threads taken a strange turn...

Seriously, though; get your familiars tested. It's your responsibility as high tier casters.

(this psa was bought to you by Phyrnglsnyx. Because VD tastes funny to vampires!)

[Rodin]

If a wizard's familiar dies, but you replace it with an identical one from the pet store without them noticing, do they still lose the experience?

[Pyrous]

If a wizard's familiar dies, but you replace it with an identical one from the pet store without them noticing, do they still lose the experience?

If the DM noticed, yes.

[Braininthejar2]

The general idea seems to be that their lifespans are linked. Otherwise Voldemort wouldn't make his snake into a horcrux, would he?

[brian 333]

A familiar is not a normal animal, it is a magical beast. I have found no rules on the lifespan of a familiar, though I suppose a DM could house rule if it ever becomes an issue.

My ruling would be that due to their magical bond, as the familiar's master ages, so does the familiar. In this case, even outsiders such as imps might feel the effects of aging while on the prime material plane, though any such disability would be erased when the master dies and the familiar drags its former master to the Hells. After all, the only thing they would lose is their body on the prime material plane, as do mortals when they die.

The exception would be if the familiar's master died of unnatural causes as opposed to aging. If the master dies at the human equivalent age of thirty the familiar does not die, but does lose the magical bond, which would return the familiar to the status of an ordinary animal. If the master is raised from death while the familiar is still alive, the bond could be restored and the animal would once again become a magical beast.

[Deliverance]

A familiar is not a normal animal, it is a magical beast.

Depending entirely on edition. :smallsmile:

As an example, if going by the online d20srd or pathfinder (the only sources on hand) it is not a magic beast, but a normal animal that is summoned to become the wizard's familiar, gaining certain specified powers, and which is treated as a magic beast for the purpose of effects that depend upon type - but increased longevity is not one of the features of the magic beast subtype, and neither is increased longevity one of the specified powers.

But it is different in other editions. 5th ed, which I haven't played, seems to have resolved it by making familiars summoned spirits that take the form of animals rather than being normal animals.

[King of Nowhere]

all the other good arguments aside, a familiar is supposed to be your sidekick. a companion and an helper, maybe even someone who can help you with research, not just something to gain a bonus feat or to cast touch spells from afar. in this light, it makes more sense to not go through a new familiar every few years.
In-world, it is fairly easy to justify it as the familiar becoming a magical beast and therefore not being affected by time in the same way.