Template negating fly speed?

[SangoProduction]

Mineral Warrior says the base creature loses Fly speed.

So if I, by virtue of advancing another level, after I've gained this template, or perhaps I had a spell cast on me, would I still have my fly speed lost, or would I gain the fly speed, since it was after the template?

That seems too wordy. OK, let's say at level 5 I take Mineral Warrior, and at level 6, my class grants a Fly speed. Do I get the fly speed?

[Red Fel]

Mineral Warrior says the base creature loses Fly speed.

So if I, by virtue of advancing another level, after I've gained this template, or perhaps I had a spell cast on me, would I still have my fly speed lost, or would I gain the fly speed, since it was after the template?

That seems too wordy. OK, let's say at level 5 I take Mineral Warrior, and at level 6, my class grants a Fly speed. Do I get the fly speed?

Well, let's be clear. This is what the Mineral Warrior template says explicitly (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e):
The base creature loses its fly ability, if any.
So, it loses the ability to fly.

One popular interpretation of this language is that it loses the preexisting ability to fly, and any subsequently gained ability to fly is unaffected. So, yes, under this interpretation, if you subsequently gain the ability to fly, Mineral Warrior does not remove it.

[Necroticplague]

So if I, by virtue of advancing another level, after I've gained this template, or perhaps I had a spell cast on me, would I still have my fly speed lost, or would I gain the fly speed, since it was after the template?

That seems too wordy. OK, let's say at level 5 I take Mineral Warrior, and at level 6, my class grants a Fly speed. Do I get the fly speed?

You would gain it. The template says you lose any fly speed. It says absolutely nothing about being able to re-gain a fly speed later. And yes, templates are inherently one-off (else most undead templates wouldn't be workable).

[Spore]

I realize physics and D&D hardly ever mix. But think about it: The flight is lost not because you loose your wings but because you are too heavy for flight. It's like a stone with wings. Not even Gargoyles are able to fly when their bodies is turned to stone.

I am not against an interpretation that allows the character to fly anyway but I feel like this would require an explanation.

[ryu]

I realize physics and D&D hardly ever mix. But think about it: The flight is lost not because you loose your wings but because you are too heavy for flight. It's like a stone with wings. Not even Gargoyles are able to fly when their bodies is turned to stone.

I am not against an interpretation that allows the character to fly anyway but I feel like this would require an explanation.

Only if whatever means of obtaining flight you use cares about weight to begin with.

[Spore]

Only if whatever means of obtaining flight you use cares about weight to begin with.

You're right. I am exclusively thinking about non magical flight.

[Necroticplague]

I always assumed that you lost flight speed not because of your weight (many creatures in DnD can fly naturally and weigh many magnitudes more than a Mineralized Warrior Human), but because the wings you used for flight are now craggy and not as aerodynamic. So, say, grafting a new set of wings on (best 10k spent), or growing a new, more suitable pair (Dragon Wings, Winged template, Fly spell) should be perfectly fine.

[DrMartin]

The ice beast template also has a similar clause. And while the reasons for limiting a mineral creature's flight seem clear enough, I find it somehow less logical for the ice creature.

Are there other templates with a similar effect?

[Spore]

I always assumed that you lost flight speed not because of your weight (many creatures in DnD can fly naturally and weigh many magnitudes more than a Mineralized Warrior Human)

That's like saying a Boeing should not be able to fly because it is heavy. Flight is almost always dependant on wing span and speed of the vehicle. Which makes it debatable. I feel the template in question is relying to heavily on DM interpretation to make a final judgment.

[Vaz]

I realize physics and D&D hardly ever mix. But think about it: The flight is lost not because you loose your wings but because you are too heavy for flight. It's like a stone with wings. Not even Gargoyles are able to fly when their bodies is turned to stone.

I am not against an interpretation that allows the character to fly anyway but I feel like this would require an explanation.

Have you seen Dragons? ;P

[SangoProduction]

Those with the Earth subtype don't often have fly speeds due to their connection to the earth. Strengthening the connection to Earth (becoming a mineral warrior) means giving up the connection to Air (the opposed element), thus your fly speed. That's my interpretation of why they lose it in the first place.

[Spore]

Have you seen Dragons? ;P

I figured they're mostly hollow like birds :P

[Necroticplague]

I figured they're mostly hollow like birds :P

I always assumed they were bouyed by whatever gasses their breath weapon uses. That's why big ones have such low maneuverability, they're basically dirigibles at that point.

[Red Fel]

Those with the Earth subtype don't often have fly speeds due to their connection to the earth. Strengthening the connection to Earth (becoming a mineral warrior) means giving up the connection to Air (the opposed element), thus your fly speed. That's my interpretation of why they lose it in the first place.

This was my interpretation as well.

It's like if a ritual that gave you the (Fire) subtype took away your Swim speed, if any. I could understand that, because you're now partially made of fire, so immersion wouldn't be the top of your list of priorities anymore. It's not because you suddenly aren't buoyant or forgot how to doggy paddle, it's because the fire that now suffuses your being actively rejects the notion of willingly spending extended periods immersed in the substance that is the manifest form of its antithesis.

Because you have embraced the earth, your body has rejected the air.

Of course, RAW > fluff, and therefore you can totally embrace the air afterwards, two-timing on the earth, you harlot.

[Zaq]

You're right. I am exclusively thinking about non magical flight.

With the possible exception of real-world birds and other flying animals that exist in reality, even "nonmagical flight" in D&D has absolutely nothing to do with physics. Trying to make a physics-based argument about why something should or shouldn't work isn't guaranteed to make you sad, but it's pretty likely to make you sad.

[ryu]

With the possible exception of real-world birds and other flying animals that exist in reality, even "nonmagical flight" in D&D has absolutely nothing to do with physics. Trying to make a physics-based argument about why something should or shouldn't work isn't guaranteed to make you sad, but it's pretty likely to make you sad.

And murder a catgirl. Congrats on adding to your count Sporeegg.

[atemu1234]

Have you seen Dragons? ;P

Having your name in the title kind of exempts you from most complaints such as those :smallsmile:.

[Spore]

And murder a catgirl. Congrats on adding to your count Sporeegg.

When I cannot have Hulk Barbarian with illogical strength then the least I can do is killing catgirls!

[ericgrau]

Have you seen Dragons? ;P

Presumably if a dragon became heavy stone and gained a connection with the earth, he would also lose the ability to fly. Too super heavy and/or anti-air.

The fluff work-around would then be "... unless the flight is not dependent on your race or existing wingspan".

[PersonMan]

You're right. I am exclusively thinking about non magical flight.

Even non-magical flight is often (Ex), which ignores physics. The jump from 'well, you'd need a 15-foot wingspan to even be able to glide' to 'those wings would need to be 30+ feet across' is large, but since it's all within the realm of 'yeah five foot long wings of yours are not cutting it', the same explanation can be applied to both.