Paladin 11/Bard 9 spell optimization from Roleplay perspective

[Arkhios]

Hello again!

I have this character in a home campaign, with crunch details as follows (if someone's interested):

Class: Paladin (Oath of the Ancients)
Alignment: Neutral Good
Deity: Ambigious (Old Faith/Elishar = little known of Old Faith deity of Light)
level: 3
Race: Human (variant)
Background: Folk Hero/Noble (with 3 child-hood friends who insist on being his retainers). The character's not your regular noble, looking at peasents down his nose, but rather very amiable person, garnering a good relationship with just about every villager, and is known to be a defender of the common folk rights.
Str 18, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16
Extra Feat - Magic Initiate (bard): Light, Thunderclap + Animal Friendship
Extra Skill: Animal Handling
Skills: Athletics, History, Religion, Persuasion
Fighting Style: Protection



a level 3 Bronze Dragonborn Barbarian of Bear Totem
a level 3 Half-dwarf/Half-orc Druid of the Underdark Circle
a level 3 Human Sorceress, Favored Soul of Melora (= goddess of the wilderness; Nature Domain)



The other members are rather squishy (even the toughest one taking heavy blows frequently!) and the Protection Style has come in quite handy! However, since our DM decided to use Initiative score (10 + your dexterity modifier) to speed up combat, my character is always at the bottom, sharing an initiative count of 9 with the Druid, and without being proficient in Perception he's bound to be often quite oblivious of ambushes, before one or two of the squishier comrades are knocked down or badly hurt. That's not very good job from a defender! Because of this, and the Protection fighting style being dependent of reaction, I've already decided I'm taking the Alert feat at 4th level.

Later on, because of purely RP reasons my character has become very interested in investigating and studying history to uncover the secrets and answers to questions that have emerged during their first few days of adventures.

Because of the group's dynamics, I've taken up the role of "know-it-all" even though his own intelligence isn't much better. However, the other characters have already shown they're either not that interested in things transpiring around them (which has me wondering, why are they even adventurers if everything other than themselves is irrelevant to them?), or they're too dumb to figure out what's going on (:P).

As my character is a fifth-generation descendant of a legendary mage with naturalborn talent with storm magic, who achieved quite a reputation and nobility for his heirs, their estate has quite an extensive library regarding at least the local events during the past two or three hundred years or so, and the character has taken interest in getting "acquainted" with the dusty tomes, devouring as much knowledge as he possibly can muster.
So it's no wonder that after a while I realized that I just have to multiclass into Bard, and get initiated with the College of Lore.
Now that the roleplaying reasoning is done with, let's move on to the optimization: I'm thinking of taking bard at least 9 levels so I can get raise dead, which our group would otherwise lose entirely if I didn't take it. Now, I'm wondering whether I should take Paladin for up to 11th, 10th, 7th, or just 6th level. I want Find Steed from paladin, Aura of Protection is an obvious take, and Aura of Warding would be great too. Beyond that, I'm open to ideas.

And, as I'll be getting quite a lot of bard spells known, but I'm also using a weapon and a shield most of the time, I'd rather take spells which don't have a material and/or somatic components; but if you have an idea I'm all ears for good argumentation. Likewise, I'd rather not take any spells that I can prepare from paladin spells.
Let's narrow it down a bit: my character has sworn an oath to the Summer Queen, the Arch-fey, and as such his title in her "court" is Summer Knight. Think of it as a new Paladin Order, like the ones found in the old school D&D supplements. Anything that even slightly conflicts with revering life, light, and nature would be off-case. Likewise, anything that fits for a "bloodline of storm" is good (this philosophy might actually apply to the magical secrets as well).

For the time being the plans for progression is Paladin11/Bard9:

Paladin1: Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Paladin2: Divine Smite, Fighting Style, 1st level Paladin spells / 1st level spell slots
Paladin3: Oath stuff, Divine Health
Paladin4: Alert -feat (+5 to Initiative score + always aware of surprises while conscious and may use reactions even if not acted already)
Bard1: Bardic Inspiration, Skill Proficiency (Arcana), 1st level Bard spells (especially Identify and Thunderwave) / 2nd level spell slots
Paladin5: Extra attack, 2nd level Paladin spells (especially Find Steed)
Bard2: Jack of All Trades (+(Proficiency x ½) to all non-proficient ability checks; including Initiative score!), Song of Rest
Paladin6: Aura of Protection / 3rd level spell slots
Paladin7: Aura of Warding
Paladin8: War Caster -feat (With Aura of Protection, advantage on Constitution Saving throws to maintain a concentration is going to be a blast. Without further bumps on Constitution, it'll end up hovering at +7 (with advantage) at lvl 17)
Bard3: Bonus Proficiencies (Investigation, Nature, and Perception), Cutting Words, Expertise (Investigation and History), 2nd level Bard spells / 4th level spell slots
Paladin9: 3rd level Paladin spells (especially Elemental Weapon and Revivify)
Bard4: ASI +2 Charisma (to 18)
Bard5: Font of Inspiration, 3rd level Bard spells / 5th level spell slots
Bard6: Additional Magical Secrets (2 cantrips or spells up to 3rd level; any classes), Countercharm
Bard7: 4th level Bard spells / 6th level spell slots
Bard8: ASI +2 Charisma (to 20)
Bard9: 5th level Bard spells (especially Raise Dead) / 7th level spell slots
Paladin10: Aura of Protection
Paladin11: Improved Divine Smite OR Bard10: Expertise (2 skills), Arcane Secrets (2 spells up to 5th level; any classes)


Any suggestions or just comments?

Edit: at one point I was thinking should I invest +2 to Wisdom, dip in Cleric for Life domain, as we don't even have a dedicated healer, but then again, shouldn't a paladin and a druid be just enough for that? Even still, I'm open to that if severely needed.

[HoarsHalberd]

Firstly, don't worry about the cleric dip. You do not need a dedicated healer, especially with lay on hands, in 5e. Secondly, I'd recommend switching level 5 pally and level 1 Bard around to have a more fun level 5.

[Arkhios]

Firstly, don't worry about the cleric dip. You do not need a dedicated healer, especially with lay on hands, in 5e. Secondly, I'd recommend switching level 5 pally and level 1 Bard around to have a more fun level 5.

As much as I agree with it, I can live and wait for extra attack for one more level (many other classes get it at 6th level, it's not that big deal). And since the character's charisma is only 16, he'll have trouble with preparing spells from the paladin's first level already, as so many are so good! Besides, There are things I, as the player, not as the character, know about a weapon I "may" have picked up from the bottom of a well, inside a desecrated underground temple. And those things are rather nasty! Nobody else in our group knows or will know how to identify magic items, so right now, only thing the character I'm playing knows about this particular sword is that he wouldn't ever part with it. Not even when going to a bath, or to sleep, or whatever :D Sure, it's magical and effective when compared to the more mundane weapon I had, but there are couple of things I would rather not to have occur regarding that sword... :P And then there's thunderwave to obtain from bard spells. Sweet, sweet thunderwave... *drool* ...No point in going sneaky sneaky when you can go with a loud BOOM! right? :D

Oh, and I may have forgotten to mention that the ancestor of the said character had a byname "Stormbearer", and it's kind of in his blood... :P (hence, he has Thunderclap as a cantrip).

Edit: I know 5th level as an Ancients paladin means misty step, but that doesn't really fit with Protection fighting style, because I'm best at what I do when next to an ally that I can protect with my shield, not 30 feet away from them :)
And I'd be able to cast misty step only twice per day, while instead I could cast thunderwave 4 times at 1st level and twice at 2nd level :P

[joaber]

I'm new in 5e, I just want to know if you're using sword and shield, how you cast bard spells that need a musical instrument as spellcasting focus?

About your PC, why burn that feat with magic iniciate?

Find steed with enlarge and a reach weapon (with correct feats) really looks good to domain the table size.

[CaptAl]

I'd recommend getting Jack of all Trades ASAP as it adds half of your proficiency bonus to initiative. The down side is slowing your access to aura of protection and extra attack.

Either way it should be a fun build. Vicious Mockery the mook on the druid, reaction to give disadvantage to the guy swinging at the barbarian. And bonus action to boost someone's attack roll via bardic inspiration. You'll have plenty to keep you busy.

If you go lord bard cutting words will compete with with your protection style for your reaction and AoO. If you want to maximize your burst you could go Pally 7, bard 13 for tons of spell slots. But that's a trade off. Improved divine smite is sweet, but is it sweeter than having nearly unlimited smites per day?

[PoeticDwarf]

So go 5 paladin and 15 bard if you want lore bard. Sadly, the feat is wasted

Level 8 spells aren't ultimate, one level more could be worth it

[Arkhios]

I'm new in 5e, I just want to know if you're using sword and shield, how you cast bard spells that need a musical instrument as spellcasting focus?

I can really see you're new to 5e

Firstly, Musical Instrument is an option you can use instead of material components which do not have a measurable cost. It's not mandatory. As in, none of your spells NEED you to use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus. You can do that on your own volition.
Secondly, you'd be surprised how many bard spells actually don't have a material component at all. Or somatic component.
Thirdly, once I get War Caster feat, it'll allow me to cast the bard spells that have a somatic component, even if I had both hands in use for a weapon and a shield.
And finally, to draw or sheath your weapon, you can do so once on each of your turns without an action of its own. Doing that second time would require an action, but I won't be able to take an Attack action and cast spells within same round, so that won't be an issue. (Unless, perhaps at a later level if I took a certain cantrip, but that's a rare occasion)

Therefore I can with good conscience sheath my weapon with the "free action", then use my Action to cast a spell if it required a free hand, somatic components, or an instrument, end my turn, and then use my reactions for plethora of options, which include Attacks of Opportunity (yes, I can do that with my unarmed strike for a total of flat 5 damage each time), Cutting Words (which is probably a better use of my reaction if no ally is within my reach), or Protection style (if there's an ally within reach who's being attacked).


About your PC, why burn that feat with magic initiate?

You clearly have no eye for roleplaying the background through your mechanical choices, do you? Like I said, the character's background includes a powerful mage ancestor who had the gift of magic in his blood (it's not necessary to specify whether the ancestor was a sorcerer or not, because that's irrelevant in regard to my character), so it's completely plausible that the character had some measure of magical talent even before he got the first level of paladin. As to why bard and not sorcerer? Well, there's a few reasons. One, DM had an idea that led to my Oath of the Ancients. Two, I might have chosen Sorcerer instead if Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide was released a year ago, but then again, having it for Bard works quite nice with the multiclassing I'm going for.


Find steed with enlarge and a reach weapon (with correct feats) really looks good to domain the table size.

5th edition doesn't give the characters too many feats, and I want Find Steed for other reasons than being a knight in his shiny plate armor on a white horse sprinkled with fairy dust rescuing damsels in distress (though, I admit I want to get a plate armor someday, and will most likely help those in need nevertheless, but that's not an excuse for anything).
Besides, there's more to the game than things you can see on the table. It's also about imagination. In fact, it's more about imagination, than concrete visual aspects. And our DM prefers not to use grid whenever it's not necessary.


I'd recommend getting Jack of all Trades ASAP as it adds half of your proficiency bonus to initiative. The down side is slowing your access to aura of protection and extra attack.

I might consider that, but maybe wait for Extra Attack at 6th character level, and then take Jack of all trades at 7th character level.


Either way it should be a fun build. Vicious Mockery the mook on the druid, reaction to give disadvantage to the guy swinging at the barbarian. And bonus action to boost someone's attack roll via bardic inspiration. You'll have plenty to keep you busy.

Indeed. (though I'll probably be using that reaction to give disadvantage to the guy swinging at the sorceress, or else I'll be sleeping on a couch if she (being the character of my betrothed!) bites the dust while I could have prevented it :P)


If you want to maximize your burst you could go Pally 7, bard 13 for tons of spell slots. But that's a trade off. Improved divine smite is sweet, but is it sweeter than having nearly unlimited smites per day?

16th level of effective caster is quite nice indeed, with 8th level spell slots, and the amount of smites is reeeally tempting.



So go 5 paladin and 15 bard if you want lore bard. Sadly, the feat is wasted.

Level 8 spells aren't ultimate, one level more could be worth it

Absolutely not, I won't be ditching Aura of Protection (that's my impressive Charisma going to all saves!), forgetting Aura of Warding I can cope with, but this? No way! :D
However, I would still get the one 9th level spell slot if I took Paladin 6 and Bard 14 (that's 17!)

And losing a feat is just something you most likely get if you multiclass, I've gotten into terms with it, and won't mourn losing it. And getting that last feat at, what, 20th level. Is it even worth it?

[Arkhios]

I was wondering should I spend the Additional Magical Secrets for Booming Blade to trick passing foes to insane amounts of damage with an AoO (when combined with Divine Smite on a critical hit! :D), and Lightning Lure or Thorn Whip for thematic reasons.

EDIT: Actually, came to think that while Booming Blade is a great combination with War Caster, what would I do if I didn't have a weapon in my hand, since an unarmed strike wouldn't work with it. Most likely the only times I'm going to use a cantrip with AoO it will be when someone moves out from my reach to avoid my attacks. I could simply use Lightning Lure to prevent that by pulling the miscreant back instantly even without a weapon in my hand. That would leave me one spell to pick up, and I realized that Elemental Weapon is a Paladin-only spell (*gasp!*) and it's at 3rd level, well within Additional Magical Secret limits. So, that might be it, if I chose not to advance further in paladin than maybe 6 or 7 levels.

In fact, what spells would you suggest me from the Bard list?

[joaber]

elemental weapon is the most underestimated power to pic with magical secrets. Imagine to cast at lvl 7 spell slot (pure palis can't do that). +3 to hit +3d4 to damage. This could be only better if you could do more attacks.

Armor of Agathys is a good idea to a frontliner.

I like warding bond too, because don't need concentration. But isn't good to someone that already take to much damage.

[Arkhios]

elemental weapon is the most underestimated power to pic with magical secrets. Imagine to cast at lvl 7 spell slot (pure palis can't do that). +3 to hit +3d4 to damage. This could be only better if you could do more attacks.
Agreed, and actually, that's +3 to hit and +3d4+3 to damage. Anyway, for a paladin multiclassing to a full caster, elemental weapon is solid gold, for the 7th level slot!
That, or a Valor bard, taken at 10th bard level.


Armor of Agathys is a good idea to a frontliner.
It's true, however, I'm not sure if it fits for the character in question


I like warding bond too, because don't need concentration. But isn't good to someone that already take to much damage.
Hmm, yes. That's one of the more tactical spells to consider. I'd use that only if the caster was staying behind and out of harm. Unless you could practically avoid being hit yourself. Greater Invisibility might work in combination. As long as you can't be seen, only way to harm you effectively is to use area spells and guessing your location.

However, I asked for suggestions about spells in Bard's own spell list, these aren't.

[Arkhios]

Just had a interesting idea. Being initiated to Oath of the Ancients by a circle of druids, I was thinking that I might check out which bard spells appear in druids' list, and stick to picking up those! :P

[gameogre]

I can really see you're new to 5e

Firstly, Musical Instrument is an option you can use instead of material components which do not have a measurable cost. It's not mandatory. As in, none of your spells NEED you to use a musical instrument as a spellcasting focus. You can do that on your own volition.
Secondly, you'd be surprised how many bard spells actually don't have a material component at all. Or somatic component.
Thirdly, once I get War Caster feat, it'll allow me to cast the bard spells that have a somatic component, even if I had both hands in use for a weapon and a shield.
And finally, to draw or sheath your weapon, you can do so once on each of your turns without an action of its own. Doing that second time would require an action, but I won't be able to take an Attack action and cast spells within same round, so that won't be an issue. (Unless, perhaps at a later level if I took a certain cantrip, but that's a rare occasion)

Therefore I can with good conscience sheath my weapon with the "free action", then use my Action to cast a spell if it required a free hand, somatic components, or an instrument, end my turn, and then use my reactions for plethora of options, which include Attacks of Opportunity (yes, I can do that with my unarmed strike for a total of flat 5 damage each time), Cutting Words (which is probably a better use of my reaction if no ally is within my reach), or Protection style (if there's an ally within reach who's being attacked).



You clearly have no eye for roleplaying the background through your mechanical choices, do you? Like I said, the character's background includes a powerful mage ancestor who had the gift of magic in his blood (it's not necessary to specify whether the ancestor was a sorcerer or not, because that's irrelevant in regard to my character), so it's completely plausible that the character had some measure of magical talent even before he got the first level of paladin. As to why bard and not sorcerer? Well, there's a few reasons. One, DM had an idea that led to my Oath of the Ancients. Two, I might have chosen Sorcerer instead if Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide was released a year ago, but then again, having it for Bard works quite nice with the multiclassing I'm going for.



5th edition doesn't give the characters too many feats, and I want Find Steed for other reasons than being a knight in his shiny plate armor on a white horse sprinkled with fairy dust rescuing damsels in distress (though, I admit I want to get a plate armor someday, and will most likely help those in need nevertheless, but that's not an excuse for anything).
Besides, there's more to the game than things you can see on the table. It's also about imagination. In fact, it's more about imagination, than concrete visual aspects. And our DM prefers not to use grid whenever it's not necessary.



I might consider that, but maybe wait for Extra Attack at 6th character level, and then take Jack of all trades at 7th character level.



Indeed. (though I'll probably be using that reaction to give disadvantage to the guy swinging at the sorceress, or else I'll be sleeping on a couch if she (being the character of my betrothed!) bites the dust while I could have prevented it :P)



16th level of effective caster is quite nice indeed, with 8th level spell slots, and the amount of smites is reeeally tempting.




Absolutely not, I won't be ditching Aura of Protection (that's my impressive Charisma going to all saves!), forgetting Aura of Warding I can cope with, but this? No way! :D
However, I would still get the one 9th level spell slot if I took Paladin 6 and Bard 14 (that's 17!)

And losing a feat is just something you most likely get if you multiclass, I've gotten into terms with it, and won't mourn losing it. And getting that last feat at, what, 20th level. Is it even worth it?


a lot of what you say isn't by raw and frankly a lot of DM's I play with wouldn't let you get away with it. If yours does that's cool but you can't assume most others are playing by the same rules.

For instance a TON of bard spells do indeed list components ect and would indeed need a musical instrument or spell components to cast. Both unlikely in the case of your hands being full of sword and shield.

Most DM's in this area seem to use spell components and focus items as a way to balance spellcasters. They would nail you every time it came up.

Also you seem to run roughshod over the action rules: Sheathing a sword, pulling a focus item out, using it and then putting it back and maybe even pulling out the sword again?

Now a lot of DM's don't care to micro manage every little action so maybe you can get away with it but at a lot of tables you are in trouble.

[bid]

For instance a TON of bard spells do indeed list components ect and would indeed need a musical instrument or spell components to cast. Both unlikely in the case of your hands being full of sword and shield.
Warcaster helps for these 38 bard (S, VS) spells:
Blade Ward (0), Mage Hand (0), Prestidigitation (0), Thunderclap (0), Charm Person (1), Cure Wounds (1), Detect Magic (1), Disguise Self (1), Earth Tremor (1), Heroism (1), Speak with Animals (1), Thunderwave (1), Calm Emotions (2), Crown of Madness (2), Enthrall (2), Lesser Restoration (2), Pyrotechnics (2), Silence (2), Skywrite (2), Zone of Truth (2), Bestow Curse (3), Dispel Magic (3), Plant Growth (3), Speak with Plants (3), Compulsion (4), Greater Invisibility (4), Animate Objects (5), Dominate Person (5), Mass Cure Wounds (5), Mislead (5), Modify Memory (5), Seeming (5), Eyebite (6), Etherealness (7), Mirage Arcane (7), Dominate Monster (8), Mind Blank (8), Power Word Heal (9)

There are 45 non-concentration M spells, of which only a few (sleep) have a combat use. Once you've grabbeed your sword, you don't need to sheath it back for any M spell.

[gameogre]

Warcaster helps for these 38 bard (S, VS) spells:
Blade Ward (0), Mage Hand (0), Prestidigitation (0), Thunderclap (0), Charm Person (1), Cure Wounds (1), Detect Magic (1), Disguise Self (1), Earth Tremor (1), Heroism (1), Speak with Animals (1), Thunderwave (1), Calm Emotions (2), Crown of Madness (2), Enthrall (2), Lesser Restoration (2), Pyrotechnics (2), Silence (2), Skywrite (2), Zone of Truth (2), Bestow Curse (3), Dispel Magic (3), Plant Growth (3), Speak with Plants (3), Compulsion (4), Greater Invisibility (4), Animate Objects (5), Dominate Person (5), Mass Cure Wounds (5), Mislead (5), Modify Memory (5), Seeming (5), Eyebite (6), Etherealness (7), Mirage Arcane (7), Dominate Monster (8), Mind Blank (8), Power Word Heal (9)

There are 45 non-concentration M spells, of which only a few (sleep) have a combat use. Once you've grabbeed your sword, you don't need to sheath it back for any M spell.

A lot of those spells are concentration spells (I think).

[Arkhios]

A lot of those spells are concentration spells (I think).

And that's a problem how? Concentrating on a spell doesn't require anything after the initial action used to cast the spell. Only restriction is that you can't cast another spell with Concentration without breaking it for the first one. Spells with concentration do not require to keep the possible materials in hand for the full duration, unless specifically mentioned. Otherwise, the requirements are for the initial casting, not for maintaining.

I never said I would use an instrument (which is, btw, a horn for me. Easily carried by the neck with a cord for instance, requiring an action to grab that would be ridiculous). To cast spells with M, the rules state that you only need a hand free to access your spell components. Additionally, you can make somatics with the same hand handling the components. If I was (personally, and for real) a spellcaster, I would definitely not put my component pouch nor spellcasting focus somewhere out of easy reach, like inside a backpack. Generally a pouch is worn tied to a belt. Heck, a belt itself might come with multiple pouches! Likewise, a spellcasting focus can easily be left hanging from somewhere, and not hidden inside a pack, if it wasn't a weaponlike object, such as staff, to begin with (a bard doesn't have one, I know, just an example). So, "pulling a focus" from somewhere seems downright poor thinking from the caster who would no doubt be frequently using one.

Neither did I say I would grab a sword DURING a same round I put it away and cast a spell. That's an awful lot of intentionally negative assumption there.

Frankly put, I don't play AL so I don't care what "a lot of tables" would think. Not that I would have to, as I'm not breaking nor bending rules.

To conclude, I find your claim without a base, that as if a lot of what I say wasn't by raw. There's absolutely nothing I'm doing out of raw. Please, do tell, what else, apart from the spells you think I was going to deceive someone with. And reading spellcasting rules again might do good, too.

I'm not playing any different game than anyone else. I play strictly by the rules as written. If you can provide me solid proof about something different, please, educate me. Otherwise, keep whatever issues you might have with random musers to yourself, thank you.

[bid]

A lot of those spells are concentration spells (I think).
15 are, 23 aren't.

Remember that we are talking about how handicapping it is to have your hands full with S&B, and I guess how weak warcaster is.

If I try to filter out non-combat spells (rituals and other long casting time), there are 45 M spells left, including animal friendship and locate object. So we could say that you can keep your sword and board for roughly half the combat-useful spells when you have warcaster.

You still need to sheath it for cloud of dagger or hold monster, so it's not perfect. But it's not something you do every round.

[gameogre]

And that's a problem how? Concentrating on a spell doesn't require anything after the initial action used to cast the spell. Only restriction is that you can't cast another spell with Concentration without breaking it for the first one. Spells with concentration do not require to keep the possible materials in hand for the full duration, unless specifically mentioned. Otherwise, the requirements are for the initial casting, not for maintaining.

I never said I would use an instrument (which is, btw, a horn for me. Easily carried by the neck with a cord for instance, requiring an action to grab that would be ridiculous). To cast spells with M, the rules state that you only need a hand free to access your spell components. Additionally, you can make somatics with the same hand handling the components. If I was (personally, and for real) a spellcaster, I would definitely not put my component pouch nor spellcasting focus somewhere out of easy reach, like inside a backpack. Generally a pouch is worn tied to a belt. Heck, a belt itself might come with multiple pouches! Likewise, a spellcasting focus can easily be left hanging from somewhere, and not hidden inside a pack, if it wasn't a weaponlike object, such as staff, to begin with (a bard doesn't have one, I know, just an example). So, "pulling a focus" from somewhere seems downright poor thinking from the caster who would no doubt be frequently using one.

Neither did I say I would grab a sword DURING a same round I put it away and cast a spell. That's an awful lot of intentionally negative assumption there.

Frankly put, I don't play AL so I don't care what "a lot of tables" would think. Not that I would have to, as I'm not breaking nor bending rules.

To conclude, I find your claim without a base, that as if a lot of what I say wasn't by raw. There's absolutely nothing I'm doing out of raw. Please, do tell, what else, apart from the spells you think I was going to deceive someone with. And reading spellcasting rules again might do good, too.

I'm not playing any different game than anyone else. I play strictly by the rules as written. If you can provide me solid proof about something different, please, educate me. Otherwise, keep whatever issues you might have with random musers to yourself, thank you.


wow nice attitude! You came and asked for help dude and then get butthurt if anyone points out any viewpoint other than it's perfect.

You are wrong and it isn't raw. Learn to read before you try and slap people trying to help you around. Hint- It does indeed cost a action to use a focus hanging around your neck. go read some Sage where he talks about just that thing.

Also another hint- What you want is possible if you use your shield with holy symbol on it as your Paladins focus (can then hold it in hand as a shield and a focus) but you can't get away with that for bard spells.

in the end you have to drop your weapon to the ground(cost nothing) and afterwards pick it up as your IN action.

Also you want to pump up that con because every single time you take 1 point of damage you will have to make a save 10+half damage taken in order to not lose your concentration spell.

but you know dude, maybe im wrong, its not like I'm perfect I was just trying to help you out. Something I will not likely try to do again.

You know you did start this out with asking for any suggestions or comments.

[Arkhios]

wow nice attitude! You came and asked for help dude and then get butthurt if anyone points out any viewpoint other than it's perfect.

My attitude is directly proportional to the amount of assault of accusations from others. If you start by throwing accusations, expect a similar response. It would be nicer if you provided facts with your claims, instead of just saying that "it's so, period". A quote from the rule in question counts as a fact.


You are wrong and it isn't raw. Learn to read before you try and slap people trying to help you around. Hint- It does indeed cost a action to use a focus hanging around your neck. go read some Sage where he talks about just that thing.

I've read the rules. Not from the basic rules pdf, nor from other people "who read the rules", I read it from the book itself. Several times. Nowhere have I seen anything about you needing a separate action to use a focus. It all boils down to what I already pointed out, in this quote:

MATERIAL (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry.
A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
I understand that a holy symbol engraved on a shield means that paladin spells with material component can be used with shield hand. I also understand that you need to hold a symbol in hand. However, to my understanding, if you have a hand free when you begin casting a spell, the Action required and specified by the spell is enough to handle the components. Nowhere does it say, you need to first grab the components, and then cast spell. At least, I can't find it. If you can, please do share. I'll believe you once you can prove what you claim to be true.
Sage Advice Compendium (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.01.pdf) lists all Sage Advices that have been released, if there's another somewhere, I'm not aware of it, and frankly if it's not in this pdf, then I doubt it exists. This doesn't say anything about an action required to use a focus or the components. Only this

you need to handle that component when you cast the spell (PH, 203). The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component. for which a hand free is enough. No actions specified there.


Also another hint- What you want is possible if you use your shield with holy symbol on it as your Paladins focus (can then hold it in hand as a shield and a focus) but you can't get away with that for bard spells.
A paladin without a holy symbol on his shield would still need another free hand to handle a holy symbol of another form, and it would be enough if it was an amulet and a free hand. Likewise, a bard can use his other hand carrying a shield, and the other, free from weapon, to cast spells, like mentioned above.


in the end you have to drop your weapon to the ground (cost nothing) and afterwards pick it up as your IN action.
I can also sheath my weapon (cost nothing; there's a sidebar in page 190 which lists activity you can do as part of your actions, both drawing and sheathing is in same sentence), and wait for my next turn and draw the weapon if I intend to attack with it (again, costs no action as part of the attack). Why would I need to draw the sword within same round? Attacks of Opportunity? If I wanted to make one, it doesn't require a weapon, at all. Everyone, according to the PH errata, is proficient with unarmed strikes, be it a fist punch, a kick, a headbutt, or anything else. An unarmed strike deals damage 1+Str modifier, flat. It's not a weapon, but it can be used for Attacks of Opportunity nevertheless. With or without a free hand.


Also you want to pump up that con because every single time you take 1 point of damage you will have to make a save 10+half damage taken in order to not lose your concentration spell.
I'm sorry to break this down for you, but this is wrong. It's arguable if I "must" pump up my Con. I'll be just fine with Aura of Protection adding my charisma to my Constitution Saving throws. Even if it was from 6th paladin level forward. Before that, a +2 is just enough.

Taking damage. Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.
The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. lf you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.


but you know dude, maybe im wrong, its not like I'm perfect I was just trying to help you out. Something I will not likely try to do again.
If you're trying to help, don't get so offensive to begin with. It's no wonder if I, or anyone else, gets a bit defensive and might even succumb to using a same level of hostility back at you. I'm sorry, that I heated up that much, might've been best if I slept over it and responded later, but I got a little bit infuriated by your attitude towards me. It felt like you were accusing me from doing some heinous crime. All I try, is to play by the rules, and only by the rules. If there's is something I've overlooked, please, I mean it, show. me. where. I'm. wrong. Post me a link, or a quote from an official, where it's said, in black on white.

[Arkhios]

Warcaster helps for these 38 bard (S, VS) spells:
Blade Ward (0), Mage Hand (0), Prestidigitation (0), Thunderclap (0), Charm Person (1), Cure Wounds (1), Detect Magic (1), Disguise Self (1), Earth Tremor (1), Heroism (1), Speak with Animals (1), Thunderwave (1), Calm Emotions (2), Crown of Madness (2), Enthrall (2), Lesser Restoration (2), Pyrotechnics (2), Silence (2), Skywrite (2), Zone of Truth (2), Bestow Curse (3), Dispel Magic (3), Plant Growth (3), Speak with Plants (3), Compulsion (4), Greater Invisibility (4), Animate Objects (5), Dominate Person (5), Mass Cure Wounds (5), Mislead (5), Modify Memory (5), Seeming (5), Eyebite (6), Etherealness (7), Mirage Arcane (7), Dominate Monster (8), Mind Blank (8), Power Word Heal (9)

There are 45 non-concentration M spells, of which only a few (sleep) have a combat use. Once you've grabbeed your sword, you don't need to sheath it back for any M spell.

By the way, thanks, for backing up with this.

Out of a total 93 spells, 38 is almost half of them. As it is, a bard will know only so many spells (4 at first level, then only 1 more at each given level, except at 6th (if you're lore bard), 10th, 14th, and 18th. They never learn every spell from their list, so I can just cherrypick those that work with War Caster and maybe a few of those which have no use in combat anyway, and live a happy adventuring life, disregarding the need for a spellcasting focus or material components for the better half of my career.

Considering that the only spells I really, really want from bard are Identify, Thunderwave, and Raise Dead, there's a lot to choose from those 38 spells as it feels appropriate.