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View Full Version : DM Help Merchant guilds at war (need opinions)



Pinjata
2016-01-11, 04:27 AM
What do you guys think of my campaign plan for my next D&D 5e?

Basically, PCs get thrown in a vicious competition between an established criminal/merchant organization and upstarts trying to push the old guys out.

New guys try to take over caravan protection and offer merchandize at some very low prices.

I'd like your opinion on how would a conflict between two such organizations look like? Would there be just financial competition and occasional murder or would things get exceptionally violent? Could any group use shapeshifters to infiltrate other group? How do you even get shapeshifters to work for you reliably?

In what fields/what goods supply would they compete?

Should I make things like cartel wars?

Merchant guild wars and competition basically. What do you gus think of it?

HammeredWharf
2016-01-11, 05:52 AM
Need more info. What's the campaign's level? How valuable is the merchandise? How "criminal" are the criminals? What's the local law enforcement like? Mostly, one would need to know if we're talking about lvl 1 guys fighting each other or some interplanar caravans of lvl 15+ characters.

IMO it sounds like a good start or a short campaign, but not something to base a long campaign around.

Pinjata
2016-01-11, 06:08 AM
Need more info. What's the campaign's level? How valuable is the merchandise? How "criminal" are the criminals? What's the local law enforcement like? Mostly, one would need to know if we're talking about lvl 1 guys fighting each other or some interplanar caravans of lvl 15+ characters.

IMO it sounds like a good start or a short campaign, but not something to base a long campaign around.

It'll be low level. Perhaps 1 to 4. Merchandise is to be defined. I do have some trouble coming up with an idea of what merchandise should be - with one exception - new boys have acess to evil clerical powers. Would be cool to use this. "Criminals" are basically legit monopolists who use every non-leathal way to push competition out of business. If this fails, they use their connections in spy and assassin guild as well as hire mercenaries.

HammeredWharf
2016-01-11, 06:42 AM
For one, they could try to sabotage each other by hiring bandits to rob the other group. The evil clerics could have a connection to some cults that need the magical components that are among the merchandise. Do you want it to be mostly a combat-focused campaign or a social campaign? That decides how brutish the new guys should be. After a while, the PC could gain standing in one of the groups and become targets themselves. Cue assassination attempts, getting framed for crimes, etc. The newcomers could also be a part of a larger cult trying to get a base of operations in this region.

One thing to consider is that this sounds like a campaign that requires evil-ish PCs. One group sounds like a bunch of LE jerks and the other has some evil priests in it. Why would a bunch of non-evil PCs want to help either of them? Could the PCs be double agents working for an organization similar to the Harpers?

Storm_Of_Snow
2016-01-11, 08:29 AM
Merchandise could be anything - from mundane things like food and wood, through silks and spices from far off lands, to slaves and narcotics. In fact, they could have lots of different lines, with each of the cartels specialising in certain areas, some of which are low profit and the existing cartels may think are too much trouble to defend, others where they get the majority of their money and will protect to the very end. Or there could be new lines the established cartels have no current access to.

If someone has a need for it, or a need can be generated, it's a potential source of wealth for the cartels.

Getting shapeshifters to work for you? They're already a part of the organisation, you're holding something dear to them (family, heirlooms, their lives, whatever), there's an independent guild of shapeshifters who ensure their agents loyalty, or you're paying them very well.

You'd have to have a lot of security around making sure people are actually who they're supposed to be though.

Fouredged Sword
2016-01-11, 08:38 AM
Ok, here is how I think about it. Merchant battles are all about the endurance match. It's all about who has money left at the end of the day. The first side to run out of money dies. This means that each guild is going to try to gain as much money as possible while denying money to the other side. The old money side has significant advantage due to preexisting money streams that are hard to disrupt and the cash stores they have saved.

The opening moves are likely quiet. The upstart guild stays in the shadows and tries to bleed the old guild without being caught. Bandits are encouraged, warehouses burn down, things go wrong. These are all things that are lose/lose for the old guild. The bandits cost money to ignore and cost money to send guards to drive off. Warehouses take money to guard and are even more expensive to rebuild.

The new guild will eventually need to come out of the shadows. They need to start making money. They move into a market controlled by the old guild and attempt to bully their way into the money stream. The old guild attempts to force them out.

Then things go overt. People get assassinated, gangs of street toughs fight for turf, merchant caravans are burned on the roads.

Pinjata
2016-01-11, 09:12 AM
The newcomers could also be a part of a larger cult trying to get a base of operations in this region. Could the PCs be double agents working for an organization similar to the Harpers?

You'd really rapidly kill the mistery in my campaign, mr. dwarf. :D That's EXACTLY the point i have hidden behind this. Eventually PCs are to help the LE guys stop the cult uprising.

goto124
2016-01-11, 09:48 AM
You'd really rapidly kill the mistery(sic) in my campaign, mr. dwarf. :D That's EXACTLY the point i have hidden behind this. Eventually PCs are to help the LE guys stop the cult uprising.

Waaaaaaaaaaaait. They MUST help the LE guys no matter what, and you're not letting the players know beforehand that they HAVE to side with those particular people? What if the players decide it's better to help the cultists, for whatever reason?

Is this going to be a linear campaign?

Pinjata
2016-01-11, 09:52 AM
Waaaaaaaaaaaait. They MUST help the LE guys no matter what, and you're not letting the players know beforehand that they HAVE to side with those particular people? What if the players decide it's better to help the cultists, for whatever reason?

Is this going to be a linear campaign?
I have described things a bit poorly. There will be a third party (Paladins/Harpers) that will lead the entire counter-cult thing but LE/LN traders will be a big players. Should PCs decide to side with cultists, things should be ... interesting.

Spore
2016-01-11, 10:25 AM
They aren't the Zhentarim involved, are there?

Douche
2016-01-11, 11:04 AM
Ok, here is how I think about it. Merchant battles are all about the endurance match. It's all about who has money left at the end of the day. The first side to run out of money dies. This means that each guild is going to try to gain as much money as possible while denying money to the other side. The old money side has significant advantage due to preexisting money streams that are hard to disrupt and the cash stores they have saved.

The opening moves are likely quiet. The upstart guild stays in the shadows and tries to bleed the old guild without being caught. Bandits are encouraged, warehouses burn down, things go wrong. These are all things that are lose/lose for the old guild. The bandits cost money to ignore and cost money to send guards to drive off. Warehouses take money to guard and are even more expensive to rebuild.

The new guild will eventually need to come out of the shadows. They need to start making money. They move into a market controlled by the old guild and attempt to bully their way into the money stream. The old guild attempts to force them out.

Then things go overt. People get assassinated, gangs of street toughs fight for turf, merchant caravans are burned on the roads.

I think this guy has it closest. Merchant guilds wouldn't really want to go to war, it'd cut into their profits. They're not countries, so they'd have a much lesser concept of territory or honor. They can just pick up and move someplace else. They wouldn't risk everything just to prove themselves or protect their ancestral homeland.

They'd need a good reason to go to war, as well. If they have no overlap in commodities. There's a good reason, since the upstart guild wants to forcibly take some of their territory/sales/etc. The guy I quoted has a good timeline, though. They wouldn't outright go to war right from the jump. I feel like it'd mostly be subterfuge and espionage.

In the end, though, it's a bunch of fat guys in silks paying mercenaries to do their dirty work. And how much loyalty do you expect the street level fishmongers to have to one guild or another? They're going to side with whomever they think will be more profitable. It's really the guys at the top who have anything to gain or lose. I don't imagine seeing a bunch of shopkeepers or merchant ship captains shedding each others blood in the streets like some sort of Westside Story scenario. (if there are water trade routes, though, there'll probably be pirates! Arrr)

Pinjata
2016-01-11, 12:17 PM
They aren't the Zhentarim involved, are there?
Yes. Just with a bit more mercantile talents.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-01-11, 12:23 PM
I have described things a bit poorly. There will be a third party (Paladins/Harpers) that will lead the entire counter-cult thing but LE/LN traders will be a big players. Should PCs decide to side with cultists, things should be ... interesting.

So the "third option" is to turn the whole campaign into a trade simulation, with the PC's starting their own guild, hiring some good out of towners and driving both of the evil organisations to bankruptcy?

I'd play that game...

CharonsHelper
2016-01-11, 12:56 PM
The biggest variable that you need to decide is how powerful the governments are.

Really - it sounds like you're basing this idea on drug wars and/or prohibition era gangsters. Those groups only go to war because they can't rely upon the government to enforce contracts/protect their merchandise etc. (That was the main reason why they ended prohibition, and it's the best argument for legalizing drugs. Not going to go into whether it's a GOOD ENOUGH argument - too tangential.)

Now - such a premise could work if your world's governments are mostly a series of city-states, especially a more points-of-light style world where the different cities' interactions are limited. In part - the old merchant guild could be so powerful because they control the bulk of the trade-routes - almost like a sort of government themselves. This would also be why the cultists could attack them in the wilds with little chance of government interference, because each government's influence stops hard at their own borders.

Etc.

Spore
2016-01-11, 01:34 PM
Yes. Just with a bit more mercantile talents.

I hope you know that you invoke a strong feeling of Baldur's Gate 1 (and a small tidbit of Baldur's Gate 2) in your players?

In the first game the Zhentarim play a role in that they send their agents (Montaron and Xzar) to check why the citizens blame the Zhentarim for the iron shortage. Harpers play a big part in the second game but the basic jist is this:

The upstarts (the Iron Throne organization led by Sarevok) destroy the main product of the competitors (magically poisoning the iron ore). The upstarts then give their good weapons to bandits for basically free, rendering the city guards helpless against the bandit raids along the countryside. Weakening the military of the city they try to incite a war between it and the neighboring city state of Amn, leading to more carnage in order to fuel the god of murder's portfolio.

Similarly, the Red Wizards of Thay work for centuries selling magical items at a high discount pushing competitors out of business. Only high customs (tolls?) work in order to stop the Red Wizards from taking over whole countries.

Anyhow, if you want your campaign to be an hommage you could try to:

a) start a prize war. Have your secret cult actually not be an evil one but a neutral god with evil followers. They can produce nonmagical weapons, items and more at a very high rate (certain spells do that) with the power of their forge god, heavily undercutting the local smiths.

b) if that is not evil enough, maybe have blood sacrifices to be paid in exchange for a batch of cheap items? Pay bandits to increase the crime rate in the area, making it necessary for almost everyone to carry weapons. Then if everyone is armed, sow mistrust and strife in the populace, so that people cut up each other. Divide and conquer. Have your upstarts convince the trade princes to battle each other. Use shapeshifter to convince them that the other one's try to murder them.

sktarq
2016-01-11, 03:05 PM
Actually two other aspects come to mind.

Firstly is labor disputes between the two sides. One side trying scare off the teamsters who unload the caravans via a haunting wraith and similar DnD versions of Union Busting and Union/Organized Criminal conflicts. But also the labor that produces the goods. Threats/Blackmail and bribes and connections and double dealing to get key distributors or sources to work with only a given side could be a whole set of small conflicts that could scale up to the main one. (A prominent smith hires the PCS as protection from one or both sides threats)

Second issue is that both sides have dark secrets and are almost certainly committing crimes of the smuggling/dark magic/bribing of officials types. Exposing and bringing the law down on their foes would be low resource way of disabling if not destroying the oppositions cash flows/advantages