Please take a look at my brawler

[Shaffi]

Hi, soon I'll be playing way of the wicked and I'd like to play a brawler (archetyp Winding Path Renegade)
Could you take a look at my stats and feats please? Last but not least I don't really like multiclassing.

Race Human
Traits
Heavy Hitter
1 Way of the Wicked Trait from the players guide, to build a background story

Stats
Str 18
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8

Feats
(1) Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
(2) Mystery of Unblinking Flame (Su) 1
(3) Pummeling Style, Maneuver Training Grapple
(5) Improved Grapple, Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting
(7) Weapon Specialization (Unarmed), Maneuver Training Trip or Sunder
(8) Mystery of Unblinking Flame (Su) 2
(9) Improved Critical (Unarmed)
(11) Greater Grapple
(13) Pummeling Charge
(14) Mystery of Unblinking Flame (Su) 3

[Geddy2112]

Stats look good.

Dirty fighting is superior to combat expertise, which you will almost never use. Fighting defensively works almost as well, since you will surely have at least 3 ranks in acrobatics. I find that there are more things to trip than sunder(and you often don't want to sunder weapons and loot) so I would have trip be maneuver training.

Otherwise is is really good-evasion/improved and fast movement are great choices for your martial flexibility if you don't have a specific feat you need for that combat.

[Shaffi]

I think it will fell in the favor of trip. My buddies weren't quiet happy when i said sunder :)

What about Dirty Tricks instead of Trip? I don't think it is that good, but it was often recommened.

Or should I just focus on grabs and punches and take some more defense instead of another cmb ?

[Florian]

What about Dirty Tricks instead of Trip? I don't think it is that good, but it was often recommened.

Dirty Trick is a good allrounder because it can debuff with direct condition effects. Most of the time, these are pretty superior to trip or disarm, especially blinded, entangled and sickened.
You could well consider taking the three Kitsune Style feats on a brawler, as it meshes quite well.

[Shaffi]

Yeah but removing the Dirty Trick is just a move action iirc. And thats a bit weak in my opinion.

If I get greater Dirty trick its fine, but in this case I'll have to switch grapple & dirty trick priority wise.

[Florian]

Yeah but removing the Dirty Trick is just a move action iirc. And thats a bit weak in my opinion.

If I get greater Dirty trick its fine, but in this case I'll have to switch grapple & dirty trick priority wise.

Combine both. Dirty Grapple is a natural for Brawlers and Charge > Grapple/Trick with two effects is pretty powerful at any level.

[Shaffi]

I think I could move improved grapple a bit down, since Dirty Fighting in the beginning will provide the same effect, without the limitation to one cmb.

How squishy will the character be, since I'll be missing 5 ac in the end.

[Elricaltovilla]

Dirty Trick gets better the more feats you take for it. If you take Greater Dirty Trick it's a standard action to remove, and Quick Dirty Trick lets you do it as part of your full attack. Comboing Trip and Dirty Trick together works out pretty well actually, although better if you have some form of reach. Getting Enlarge Person on you and taking the Lunge feat should help with that.

[Psyren]

Yeah but removing the Dirty Trick is just a move action iirc. And thats a bit weak in my opinion.

As others have said, the more DT feats you get (and Brawlers can do this better than anyone), the more powerful DT becomes. What you want to build towards is Superior Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/superior-dirty-trick-combat) from DTT, which makes them need a full-round action to remove your debuff. Combine with Quick Dirty Trick and you can keep an enemy locked down permanently while damaging it every round.

[(Un)Inspired]

What does your character do to combat flying opponents? How do they effect enemies that are fast enough to stay out of melee with your character? Can your character contribute effectively outside of combat?

[Shaffi]

What does your character do to combat flying opponents? How do they effect enemies that are fast enough to stay out of melee with your character? Can your character contribute effectively outside of combat?

Thats the other "beef" I've got with the brawler, he'll probably just do damage.

Thats my 3rd pathfinder adventure. Currently I'm playing an inquisitor of cayden cailean and in my first game I played an investigator.

But at the moment, most of the classes don't appeal to me.

Our way of the wicked group will contain an arcanist, anti paladin and a wizard or sorc.

[Florian]

Thats the other "beef" I've got with the brawler, he'll probably just do damage.

Thats my 3rd pathfinder adventure. Currently I'm playing an inquisitor of cayden cailean and in my first game I played an investigator.

But at the moment, most of the classes don't appeal to me.

Our way of the wicked group will contain an arcanist, anti paladin and a wizard or sorc.

Sooner or later you´ll find out that he classes that "only" deal in raw damage and direct conditions have the highest efficiency when pitted against the Bestiary or an unmodified AP.
What you sacrifice for that is the simple illusion that you actually have choices that matter during the action.

The question here will be: What makes you feel good, what makes you feel better - Having opted for the right choices during the design process of a character and/or making the right choices on a round-by-round basis during actual play?

Play the game long enough and stuff like picking the right spell and using it at the right time will cease to be anything special and simply be a part of system mastery. From that point on, the only thing that truly matters are the speed and precision choices and action will be executed.

Having said that and looking at the party roster for your intended AP, I´d actually say "no" to your choice of brawler as you won´t have fun with it when an Antipaladin is around.
I´d actually propose that you look at the Skald or Warpriest as your choices, as you can contribute on any level with these classes and still have relevant actions.

[Psyren]

OP already has Pummeling Style planned so there's going to be very little that can actually play keep-away successfully. Even if they spend their entire action Withdrawing, the battlefields are going to be only so big, and he can just charge after them and pounce.

Flight is solved cheaply via Winged Boots, or if you have the extra cash and need the additional uses/day, Wings of Flying. A 60ft. fly speed will handle the vast majority of opponents.

[(Un)Inspired]

OP already has Pummeling Style planned so there's going to be very little that can actually play keep-away successfully. Even if they spend their entire action Withdrawing, the battlefields are going to be only so big, and he can just charge after them and pounce.

Flight is solved cheaply via Winged Boots, or if you have the extra cash and need the additional uses/day, Wings of Flying. A 60ft. fly speed will handle the vast majority of opponents.

Is that really true? How fast are things like dragons? Can a 60ft fly speed keep up with them?

What about ranged weapons like guns, bows and long ranged spells? Can't they attack from hundreds, sometimes thousands of feet away? How many hundred of feet does pummeling style let a character move in one round while still attacking?

[Psyren]

Is that really true? How fast are things like dragons? Can a 60ft fly speed keep up with them?

If they're running away then you've won, haven't you? Most of the time with dragons, you are the one invading their lair, not the other way around.



What about ranged weapons like guns, bows and long ranged spells? Can't they attack from hundreds, sometimes thousands of feet away? How many hundred of feet does pummeling style let a character move in one round while still attacking?

180 with a 60ft. fly speed + Haste. How big are your battle mats anyway?

Not to mention Brawlers can also go "Oh, you're playing keep-away? Guess what, I'm good at archery now."

[(Un)Inspired]

If they're running away then you've won, haven't you? Most of the time with dragons, you are the one invading their lair, not the other way around.



180 with a 60ft. fly speed + Haste. How big are your battle mats anyway?

Not to mention Brawlers can also go "Oh, you're playing keep-away? Guess what, I'm good at archery now."

They don't need to run to make use of the high movement speed with Flyby Attack.

How is this Brawler casting Haste on himself, or are you assuming that a spellcasting is helping him? Every build is great if it assumes a wizard can just cast whatever spells it needs.

Battle mats are as long as a combat needs them to be. There are characters that can both observe opponents and and from over 1000' feet away.

Can a Brawler suddenly become good at ranged combat? I was under the impression that all they could do was grab a bunch of archery feats. Do they have a method for spontaneously generating the gear necessary to be effective at range (a high enhancement bow, different material arrows for piercing DR, etc etc)

[Psyren]

They don't need to run to make use of the high movement speed with Flyby Attack.

If they're using Flyby Attack then they're not full-attacking. At which point you can just ready an action to punch them in the face and trade blows that way, or ready an action to grapple them/jump on their back etc.



How is this Brawler casting Haste on himself, or are you assuming that a spellcasting is helping him? Every build is great if it assumes a wizard can just cast whatever spells it needs.

Oh come on now, Haste is right up there with a +1 sword as expected buffs go. Speed weapon, boots, potion - WBL is a thing that exists, you know?



Battle mats are as long as a combat needs them to be. There are characters that can both observe opponents and and from over 1000' feet away.

And what are they shooting from that range? Because it sure isn't a breath weapon.



Can a Brawler suddenly become good at ranged combat? I was under the impression that all they could do was grab a bunch of archery feats. Do they have a method for spontaneously generating the gear necessary to be effective at range (a high enhancement bow, different material arrows for piercing DR, etc etc)

Again, WBL is a thing that exists. I can cite the page where you can find it if you like. If your GM wants to passive-aggressively screw your character over by not letting you get gear before fighting dragons, well, that's an out-of-game problem.

[(Un)Inspired]

If they're using Flyby Attack then they're not full-attacking. At which point you can just ready an action to punch them in the face and trade blows that way, or ready an action to grapple them/jump on their back etc.


Unless they're flyby attacking to cast a spell from range. Moving and spellcasting is a good strategy for a dragon which totally keeps it out of range of a readied action punch



Oh come on now, Haste is right up there with a +1 sword as expected buffs go. Speed weapon, boots, potion - WBL is a thing that exists, you know?

I'm more than happy to grant people WBL for their builds. This particular build we are discussing hasn't spent it's WBL to ensure that it has Haste up. I'm trying to point out weaknesses in the build so that The OP might patch them.



And what are they shooting from that range? Because it sure isn't a breath weapon.
Magic, Guns, Arrows; dragons aren't the only enemy that this character needs to worry about.



Again, WBL is a thing that exists. I can cite the page where you can find it if you like. If your GM wants to passive-aggressively screw your character over by not letting you get gear, well, that's an out-of-game problem.

How much does a high plussed Bow cost? WBL isn't unlimited and you've already pointed out that this build is ineffective in other areas without spending money. If a character is relying on a ton of magical items to be effective then one should plan out how much each item cost to ensure that they can be afforded. The OP has not yet done this.

[Psyren]

Unless they're flyby attacking to cast a spell from range. Moving and spellcasting is a good strategy for a dragon which totally keeps it out of range of a readied action punch

I would be quite happy if they wasted rounds doing this. Dragon spellcasting is pathetic for their CR; an Adult Green for instance (CR 12) only gets 2nd-level spells. No, what makes a dragon scary is melee, and as a martial you can build to handle that.


I'm more than happy to grant people WBL for their builds. This particular build we are discussing hasn't spent it's WBL to ensure that it has Haste up. I'm trying to point out weaknesses in the build so that The OP might patch them.

You phrased it as though Haste was somehow difficult for a martial class to get, or that it was unique/singular enough to require GM assistance, was my point. It's a common buff, much like enhancement bonuses to your ability scores and resistance bonuses to your saves.



Magic, Guns, Arrows; dragons aren't the only enemy that this character needs to worry about.

Few other opponents have 1000' vision and 100' speed.


How much does a high plussed Bow cost? WBL isn't unlimited and you've already pointed out that this build is ineffective in other areas without spending money. If a character is relying on a ton of magical items to be effective then one should plan out how much each item cost to ensure that they can be afforded. The OP has not yet done this.

You're full BAB, you don't need a huge plus on your bow to hit. As for handling DR, even if material arrows and +X bows are somehow unavailable or too expensive, Brawlers can pick up Clustered Shots as needed.

[Florian]

@(Un)Inspired:

Sorry man, things don´t happen in a void and they don´t have to be fought to an end to be ended.
You can cite X situations that don´t have ox manure to do with the AP mentioned and still miss the point.

[(Un)Inspired]

I would be quite happy if they wasted rounds doing this. Dragon spellcasting is pathetic for their CR; an Adult Green for instance (CR 12) only gets 2nd-level spells. No, what makes a dragon scary is melee, and as a martial you can build to handle that.

As long as we're passing magic items out a dragon is perfectly capable of using wands and scrolls to have much more powerful casting than just 2nd level spells. Even without them the dragon is perfectly capable of Shield/Mage Armor/Mirror Image/Blur'ing itself to the point that the brawler can't touch it with its only means of effecting the world.



You phrased it as though Haste was somehow difficult for a martial class to get, or that it was unique/singular enough to require GM assistance, was my point. It's a common buff, much like enhancement bonuses to your ability scores and resistance bonuses to your saves.

How difficult Haste is to acquire is irrelevant as the build the OP presented doesn't have access to it.



Few other opponents have 1000' vision and 100' speed.

100' speed in unimportant when you can make server all rounds of full attacks or several rounds of spellcasting while the brawler is forced to huff and puff his way over to you. Also, teleporting is a thing.



You're full BAB, you don't need a huge plus on your bow to hit. As for handling DR, even if material arrows and +X bows are somehow unavailable or too expensive, Brawlers can pick up Clustered Shots as needed.

Full BAB is enough to hit? With this characters 16 Dex his first attack is only a +22 to hit at 20th level. It only gets lower as he tries to pile on extra attacks with rapid shot, manyshot, etc. he's not gonna be hitting anything.


@(Un)Inspired:

Sorry man, things don´t happen in a void and they don´t have to be fought to an end to be ended.
You can cite X situations that don´t have ox manure to do with the AP mentioned and still miss the point.

I literally have no clue as to what idea(s) you're trying to communicate.

[Florian]

I literally have no clue as to what idea(s) you're trying to communicate.

If specific material is mentioned (in this case: Way of the Wicked), it should be common courtesy to base your comments on it. If you don´t know the material and you have basic thoughts, mention that.

..typos...

[(Un)Inspired]

The OP's request had nothing to do with the fact that he is going to be playing in way of the wicked. He simply asks posters to
take a look at my stats and feats please?

At no point does the OP request that comment or questions that posters generate after looking at his build should reflect the fact that he's going to be playing in a specific adventure path.

[Psyren]

As long as we're passing magic items out a dragon is perfectly capable of using wands and scrolls to have much more powerful casting than just 2nd level spells. Even without them the dragon is perfectly capable of Shield/Mage Armor/Mirror Image/Blur'ing itself to the point that the brawler can't touch it with its only means of effecting the world.

If you start handing magic items to the dragon that aren't in his statblock though, you're increasing the CR of the encounter and the Brawler's wealth goes up too. It's an arms-race.



How difficult Haste is to acquire is irrelevant as the build the OP presented doesn't have access to it.

Um, standard WBL is generally assumed :smallconfused: You have to state up front if your campaign is low-wealth, monty haul or zero magic items. I would understand if I was recommending something singular like a Rod of Wonder, but there are a bunch of very common ways to get Haste even without considering his party. It's a 3rd-level core spell for crying out loud.



100' speed in unimportant when you can make server all rounds of full attacks or several rounds of spellcasting while the brawler is forced to huff and puff his way over to you. Also, teleporting is a thing.

How is a dragon full-attacking from range? With a bow? Their dex sucks.

And I already mentioned how pathetic their spellcasting is for their CR, so if that's all they have the PC is in great shape.



Full BAB is enough to hit? With this characters 16 Dex his first attack is only a +22 to hit at 20th level. It only gets lower as he tries to pile on extra attacks with rapid shot, manyshot, etc. he's not gonna be hitting anything.

You're still throwing out WBL :smallconfused: Belt of Physical Perfection is assumed for 20th level martials, there are more bonuses besides (luck, competence, insight) and he can damn sure afford an enhancement bonus.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you start handing magic items to the dragon that aren't in his statblock though, you're increasing the CR of the encounter and the Brawler's wealth goes up too. It's an arms-race.



Um, standard WBL is generally assumed :smallconfused: You have to state up front if your campaign is low-wealth, monty haul or zero magic items. I would understand if I was recommending something singular like a Rod of Wonder, but there are a bunch of very common ways to get Haste even without considering his party. It's a 3rd-level core spell for crying out loud.



How is a dragon full-attacking from range? With a bow? Their dex sucks.

And I already mentioned how pathetic their spellcasting is for their CR, so if that's all they have the PC is in great shape.



You're still throwing out WBL :smallconfused: Belt of Physical Perfection is assumed for 20th level martials, there are more bonuses besides (luck, competence, insight) and he can damn sure afford an enhancement bonus.

I'm not throwing out WBL at all. Look at the first post. Look at the build. He literally doesn't have a single magic item. Perhaps you'd like to suggest that the OP pick up things like a belt of physical perfection? Currently his build doesn't have one nor does it have access to haste at all.

Maybe you assume that all character have magic items that aren't written down as part of that build but that sounds incredibly strange to me. I do a fair amount of GMing and If a player came to me with a character sheet that had zero magic items written down on it I wouldn't just let him have the effects of a bunch of magic items. I wouldn't just assume that they could do a bunch of things that literally are not listed.

As long as the campaign is anything other than no magic I would agree with you that there are ways for a brawler to have access to haste. None of those ways matter for this build as it literally has no way to access haste listed.

Also I'm not suggesting that a dragon is attacking t range with anything other than magic. I'm suggesting that everyday ranged enemies like Bowmen and gunslingers can ping away at a brawler for days before melee can engage.

[Psyren]

I'm not throwing out WBL at all. Look at the first post. Look at the build. He literally doesn't have a single magic item. Perhaps you'd like to suggest that the OP pick up things like a belt of physical perfection? Currently his build doesn't have one nor does it have access to haste at all.

Maybe you assume that all character have magic items that aren't written down as part of that build but that sounds incredibly strange to me. I do a fair amount of GMing and If a player came to me with a character sheet that had zero magic items written down on it I wouldn't just let him have the effects of a bunch of magic items. I wouldn't just assume that they could do a bunch of things that literally are not listed.

I did suggest magic items to the OP - post #13. That's what started all this; you then attempted to claim item-based flight was insufficient because dragons might exist. Which is not only false, it's also irrelevant since you yourself are now bringing up non-dragon foes.



Also I'm not suggesting that a dragon is attacking t range with anything other than magic. I'm suggesting that everyday ranged enemies like Bowmen and gunslingers can ping away at a brawler for days before melee can engage.

Those enemies generally aren't very fast. They can certainly waste time trying to teleport in (ending up hundreds of miles away) or dimension door and give up their attacks.

[(Un)Inspired]

I did suggest magic items to the OP - post #13. That's what started all this; you then attempted to claim item-based flight was insufficient because dragons might exist. Which is not only false, it's also irrelevant since you yourself are now bringing up non-dragon foes.


I've been talking about both dragons and non-dragon enemies for a while now. Watch this, I'll even quote myself from earlier in the thread:
Is that really true? How fast are things like dragons? Can a 60ft fly speed keep up with them?

What about ranged weapons like guns, bows and long ranged spells? Can't they attack from hundreds, sometimes thousands of feet away? How many hundred of feet does pummeling style let a character move in one round while still attacking?]
I'm not sure why you keep saying that I'm only talking about dragons at no point do I state that the dragons will be the ones firing bows or guns...

You also never addressed my claim that with speeds that greatly outstrips a brawler with winged boots on a dragon can buff there defenses to the point that the brawler is SOL in melee.

You may have suggested magic items but a) you did not suggest the magic item's that you latter claimed can just be "assumed" b) the Op has yet to add any magic items to his build c) without looking at a budget you can claim the brawler has whatever Magic Items you want we need to actually sit down and see what it can and cannot afford.



Those enemies generally aren't very fast. They can certainly waste time trying to teleport in (ending up hundreds of miles away) or dimension door and give up their attacks.

I was referring to using teleportation magic to continually stay hundreds of feet away from the brawler to kite it.

[Psyren]

You also never addressed my claim that with speeds that greatly outstrips a brawler with winged boots on a dragon can buff there defenses to the point that the brawler is SOL in melee.

If they're in melee with you their speed is irrelevant. They're in melee - you can hit them!



You may have suggested magic items but a) you did not suggest the magic item's that you latter claimed can just be "assumed" b) the Op has yet to add any magic items to his build c) without looking at a budget you can claim the brawler has whatever Magic Items you want we need to actually sit down and see what it can and cannot afford.

Again, the budget is there, it's called WBL. If it can't be used on very basic things like haste and flight then the GM is intentionally screwing him over, and he's better off playing Xbox until he's allowed to participate in the game.



I was referring to using teleportation magic to continually stay hundreds of feet away from the brawler to kite it.

So wait, let me get this straight - they're running away from whatever they were guarding and only launching an attack every other round? With hundreds of feet of range penalties to boot? Do you get bonus XP when you point and laugh at them? :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

If they're in melee with you their speed is irrelevant. They're in melee - you can hit them!

not when you can't hit them because their AC/ Miss chance are too high for you to connect because of s combination of the spells I mentioned+a dragons already high AC



Again, the budget is there, it's called WBL. If it can't be used on very basic things like haste and flight then the GM is intentionally screwing him over, and he's better off playing Xbox until he's allowed to participate in the game.


It doesn't matter that it's there. The OP isn't using it. The only one doing the screwing in the player... To themself.


So wait, let me get this straight - they're running away from whatever they were guarding and only launching an attack every other round? With hundreds of feet of range penalties to boot? Do you get bonus XP when you point and laugh at them? :smalltongue:[/QUOTE]

Who said they're guarding something?

And you probably won't be collecting that XP because you'll be shot to death. It doesn't matter how few attacks they get to make. The brawler can't fight back. He's gonna go down eventually

[Psyren]

not when you can't hit them because their AC/ Miss chance are too high for you to connect because of s combination of the spells I mentioned+a dragons already high AC

That doesn't contradict my statement "their speed is irrelevant," you're just shifting the goalposts to AC now. Besides which, you're a martial class, beating AC is your job.



It doesn't matter that it's there. The OP isn't using it. The only one doing the screwing in the player... To themself.

Pretty sure all he said was "take a look at my stats and feats," not "our GM has removed all wealth and magic items."



Who said they're guarding something?

Generally the PCs go to the dungeon/stronghold and find the monsters. You can do it the other way around of course, but in that case you control the terms of engagement, and you can just shut the door and block their arrows or something to force them to close in. (Which, incidentally, you can do even if you're the aggressor - use the terrain and play smart.)



And you probably won't be collecting that XP because you'll be shot to death. It doesn't matter how few attacks they get to make. The brawler can't fight back. He's gonna go down eventually

I don't know how many campaigns you've played in that take place on wide-open featureless plains with no cover or objective, but even if that unlikely scenario comes to pass, we've gone right back to the brawler learning archery and shooting back.

[Seward]

I don't know how many campaigns you've played in that take place on wide-open featureless plains with no cover or objective, but even if that unlikely scenario comes to pass, we've gone right back to the brawler learning archery and shooting back.

Even in the open plain situation it's astonishing how often anyone in the party with a 25gp obscuring mist scroll can force enemies into melee if they actually care about killing you anytime soon. This trick is great on lance-chargers, archers of any flavor, most sneak attackers and critters that rely on targeted effects and spells. While the brawler can't use the scroll himself, he can buy one and hand it to pretty much any primary spellcaster "just in case". Said caster will probably know when it's a good idea to use an action on that, and if not the brawler can always say "use the scroll I gave you now and they'll come to us!" (talking is a free action)

Don't try this on a dragon. A dragon in a wide open plain is an encounter that will pretty much suck as he flies by whenever his breath weapon is up. Most parties heal through it while chipping away with their weaker ranged stuff, or work out some kind of dim-door+fly combination to port the full-attacking melee bruisers next to the dragon for a round (usually after casting a couple dispel magics or several attack mod buffs to cope with mage armor/shield on the dragon). Dragons large size and smaller are often brought down with a humble tanglefoot bag (even with range penalties for breath weapons they aren't that hard to hit, and a lot of shenanigans can improve your odds, or get you closer for a single shot)

The bruiser's fine. He'll want to pick up some basic stuff as he levels (potion of fly to begin with, eventually boots of haste and some means of flying aside from 750gp potions when the casters don't have a free action) but as such critters become more common such items become affordable so...not really a problem.

I've played tons of melee and they cope just fine in all the encounters they're supposed to be bad at if you just think a little big as you level and buy a few "in case of emergency" consumables. If you get too many encounters of that type frequently before the levels where you can afford your own permanent items, the spellcasters will have to step up and help you get into the fight, because it takes far fewer spell slots to drop a well designed melee next to something and kill it than it usually takes for them to kill stuff out of their own spell slots without the melees participating.

In the case of a brawler dex+fullbab+martial flexibliity means investing in a masterwork composite bow adjusted to her strength and cheap cold iron arrows, maybe with silver weapon blanch is plenty. If you are feeling really worried, pick up a 50gp potion of magic weapon or 300gp potion of align weapon rather than enchanting the bow. You can shift in the archery feats while getting out the bow and buffing it up, cause it's likely to be an extended fight if your brawler can't get into it in a reasonable way otherwise. For only about 1000gp total you're covered from level 1-20 at ranged combat - you won't be awesome at it but you won't be useless either if they're doing flyby BS. That kind of bow isn't likely good enough for something like a flying artillery-sorcerer in an open plain, but that kind of enemy can be chased down with your potion of fly and boots of haste under most circumstances, maybe with a little dim-door help from an ally if they're using really long range stuff with no possible cover available.

[Captain Morgan]

not when you can't hit them because their AC/ Miss chance are too high for you to connect because of s combination of the spells I mentioned+a dragons already high AC



It doesn't matter that it's there. The OP isn't using it. The only one doing the screwing in the player... To themself.


So wait, let me get this straight - they're running away from whatever they were guarding and only launching an attack every other round? With hundreds of feet of range penalties to boot? Do you get bonus XP when you point and laugh at them? :smalltongue:

Who said they're guarding something?

And you probably won't be collecting that XP because you'll be shot to death. It doesn't matter how few attacks they get to make. The brawler can't fight back. He's gonna go down eventually[/QUOTE]


Look, there is some utility in pointing out potential weaknesses you need to cover, but you're also not really suggesting ways to shore up those weaknesses and picking apart every attempt to do so. The DM can throw a limitless number of situations at you, and there is no way any character will have the optimal answer to all of them. Even a wizard can't prepare enough spells to cover every situation, or enough castings of the same spell to ideally respond if the same problem arises more than once. The Brawler could invest a ton of resources into being good at ranged combat, but what happens if the opponent forces incredibly high will saves all the time?

The DM can ALWAY come up with a scenario to make you less effective or target a weakness. They can even do it in an AP with minimal adjustments.

So what are you actually suggesting Shaffi do for their build?