What's all this talk about being dead?

[Yechezkiel]

I didn't want to sidetrack/derail Jack Mann's "RAW and You" thread, but what's all the talk about no definition of what it means to be dead? This is SRD:

Dead: The character’s hit points are reduced to –10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

[Arbitrarity]

But there's nothing that says you're unconscious. :smallbiggrin:

Also, depending on how you read the soul bit, you could try something sad like claiming that your brain controls your actions, not your soul :P.

[Indon]

Well, since, by RAW, souls aren't defined as having a function on a character, there's nothing that details the character actually stops moving.

It's a good example of how silly discussion of the RAW, excluding common sense because it's not "a common ground" can get.

[Yechezkiel]

But there's nothing that says you're unconscious. :smallbiggrin:

Also, depending on how you read the soul bit, you could try something sad like claiming that your brain controls your actions, not your soul :P.

"A dying character immediately falls unconscious and can take no actions."

You get it on the way to dying.

[Yechezkiel]

Well, since, by RAW, souls aren't defined as having a function on a character, there's nothing that details the character actually stops moving.

It's a good example of how silly discussion of the RAW, excluding common sense because it's not "a common ground" can get.

Ok, I understand where this "logic" is coming from now. ty

[Arbitrarity]

And you're dying from -1 to -9, and dead, you're below -10, so no longer dying, so no longer unconscious :smalltongue:

[Indon]

And you're dying from -1 to -9, and dead, you're below -10, so no longer dying, so no longer unconscious :smalltongue:

Becoming dead doesn't say you stop dying.

I wonder if it says if you could be stabilized or not, though?

[Ditto]

Once you're dead, you no long have the status 'dying character' and why should you automatically carry over the conditions of that status (like unconsciousness)?

What are the mechanics of 'decays normally unless magically perserved', anyway?

'Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic' What about the appropriately named spell False Life? You're given temporary HP. It's not healing, it's not natural. You're been restored to life via magic! (Not that 'Life' has been well-defined, either...) So long as the spell's duration holds, why not walk around with 1d10+Lvl HP and see the world? :smallsmile: During that time, you're presumably Alive, so you can slap on a CLW and you're square again.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Becoming dead doesn't say you stop dying.

But:
1) Dying is defined as a range from -1 to -9. Dead is outside that range (-10 hp); thus they're mutually exclusive.
2) You can skip Dying entirely via attacks that do more than 10 damage, or, say, a Finger of Death.

[Yechezkiel]

Before anyone takes this thread too seriously, don't take this thread too seriously.

[Indon]

But:
1) Dying is defined as a range from -1 to -9. Dead is outside that range (-10 hp); thus they're mutually exclusive.
2) You can skip Dying entirely via attacks that do more than 10 damage, or, say, a Finger of Death.

Ah, touche.

Lich: "Finger of Death!"
PC: "AAAAAAGGGHHHH! ...Uh, what happens now?"
Lich: "You're dead, of course."
PC: "All right. So, uh... I'mma smash your face in now."
Lich: "All right, but Undead don't even have a dying stage."
And much awkwardness occured.

[Arbitrarity]

Nooo! Even soul bind can't stop it! Trap the soul works though...

[Aquillion]

If you've been killed by a spell, don't forget Freedom of Movement for when your DM objects to your interpretation of the 'dead' status.

That spell says:
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movementIf your DM argues that being dead impedes movement, get someone to cast Freedom of Movement on you. Presto; if you've been killed by a finger of death, you are certainly "under the influence of magic that normally impedes movement." Therefore, Freedom of Movement will let you move and attack normally while dead (although it will not let you take any other actions.)

Even if you weren't killed by magic, it says that you automatically succeed on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, so if anyone ever attempts to grapple your corpse, Freedom of Movement will help. Or you could have your friends throw your corpse in a lake, so the bit about how the spell "also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater" will kick in. It won't let you breathe, but you're dead anyway, so that works out nicely.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Or you could have your friends throw your corpse in a lake, so the bit about how the spell "also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater" will kick in. It won't let you breathe, but you're dead anyway, so that works out nicely.

Here's the amusing sequence of events that would follow, courtesy of the drowning rules:

You start drowning after CON and some rounds, I think. Your hit points are SET AT 0 -- meaning you come alive again.

I mean, you drop back to -1 next turn and die the turn after -- there's no rules on how to STOP drowning -- but then, you could always do it again.

[Yechezkiel]

Ok, so, for us (as any of our PCs) to become a Lich, all we need is Freedom of Movement (in ring form, perhaps), False Life (perhaps a nice crown, all fasionable liches seem to have a stylish crown), and to drop below -9 hp?

Any other suggestions? Someone get to work on the 'Undead template' for loopholes in this plot!

[Kurald Galain]

Here's the amusing sequence of events that
I mean, you drop back to -1 next turn and die the turn after -- there's no rules on how to STOP drowning -- but then, you could always do it again.
Well, you cast Cure Drowning, of course...

[Callix]

Magic Jar etc has many effects on souls, which seem to affect the actions of the people involved. On a less serious note, there are PrC's that grant permanent freedom of movement. Oh, the horror! It just won't die! Why, oh why, does death magic have to restrict movement! Paralysis, fine. Slow, peachy. But death? Why didn't he *make* his save and just take 3d6!

[ocato]

Somewhere, a DM is reading this thread. In his hands, he is furiously clutching a dice bag. In two hours, his players will assemble in his living room, and he will punish them for this. It isn't their fault, they did nothing wrong. But one of them will midread a rule, and he will kill them all. characters and players.

Fortunately, they'll just stick their heads in buckets of water and everything will be fine. But seriously, this stuff is madness.

[ZeroNumerous]

You start drowning after CON and some rounds, I think. Your hit points are SET AT 0 -- meaning you come alive again.

I love this idea.

Mother: Oh, Mr. Cleric, please save my baby! He's dying!
Cleric: *Chucks the child into a lake* Pelor be praised!
Mother: You monster!
Child: *Crawls out of the lake, completely fine.*

[ocato]

I love this idea.

Mother: Oh, Mr. Cleric, please save my baby! He's dying!
Cleric: *Chucks the child into a lake* Pelor be praised!
Mother: You monster!
Child: *Crawls out of the lake, completely fine.*


That's too funny.

[Piccamo]

I love this idea.

Mother: Oh, Mr. Cleric, please save my baby! He's dying!
Cleric: *Chucks the child into a lake* Pelor be praised!
Mother: You monster!
Child: *Crawls out of the lake, completely fine.*

Not quite. There's no way to stop drowning once you start. The next round you drop to -1 and the third round you drown.

[Arbitrarity]

Wait!

You're unconscious when dead :(.

See, your nonlethal damage exceeds your current HP, leaving you unconscious....

[Piccamo]

That is true. Good catch, though I doubt the subdual damage rules were intended for this.

[barawn]

Not quite. There's no way to stop drowning once you start. The next round you drop to -1 and the third round you drown.

There's no details about what "drowned" is, though. It doesn't say "die" - it says "in the third round, you drown" - whatever that does.

[Dausuul]

Wait!

You're unconscious when dead :(.

See, your nonlethal damage exceeds your current HP, leaving you unconscious....

Very nice counter-technicality there. :)

[Emperor Tippy]

You can free res anyone you want easily.

Dunk their head under water and their health is set to 0. Cure Minor wounds and all is good.


Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you’d never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.

If you are fully functional again you are not drowning.

[Yechezkiel]

You can free res anyone you want easily.

Dunk their head under water and their health is set to 0. Cure Minor wounds and all is good.



If you are fully functional again you are not drowning.

Is that what that unnamed southern US religious group is trying to do, bring back the dead with the cunning use of rivers?


P.s. No offense unnamed southern US religious groups

[Dausuul]

You can free res anyone you want easily.

Dunk their head under water and their health is set to 0. Cure Minor wounds and all is good.

If you are fully functional again you are not drowning.

Unfortunately, you only drown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning) if you try to hold your breath for too long. If you don't try to hold your breath, you never fail a Constitution check and so never begin to drown. And since dead people have now been established to be unconscious, they can't hold their breath.

On the other hand, water breathing just became superfluous.

Though, actually, unconsciousness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) also does not say you can't do anything... it just says you're "knocked out" (a term which is not defined) and helpless. Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) means you are treated as if you had a Dex of zero, you can be sneak attacked and coup de graced, et cetera, but does not say you can't act. Only paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) characters are actually prevented from acting.

[Umarth]

Good catch on the subdual damage. I've been posting about the death rule being borken since 3.0. I guess that fixes it... well fixes it enough for the game anyway.

Dausuul sadly if you have a dex of 0: "A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed."

So you probably can't move with out Freedom of Movement.

Though I guess that winds up breaking everything again.

[Tor the Fallen]

If you've been killed by a spell, don't forget Freedom of Movement for when your DM objects to your interpretation of the 'dead' status.

That spell says: If your DM argues that being dead impedes movement, get someone to cast Freedom of Movement on you. Presto; if you've been killed by a finger of death, you are certainly "under the influence of magic that normally impedes movement." Therefore, Freedom of Movement will let you move and attack normally while dead (although it will not let you take any other actions.)

Doesn't Finger of Death of a duration of instantaneous?

[Yechezkiel]

Doesn't Finger of Death of a duration of instantaneous?

You mean Finger of Life? It's a rez spell in this thread of logic.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait!

You're unconscious when dead :(.
Surely there's some feat that protects you from unconsciousness?


Doesn't Finger of Death of a duration of instantaneous?
Hm, interesting... that spell does 3d6 damage on a succesful save, and does nothing on a failed save. Whoever made that up?

Ah, here's an interesting one... since death doesn't, you know, kill you, and since nothing says that a dead creature can't be energy drained, any decent energy draining creature can have you end up at negative level. Of course this gives big penalties to your attack rolls and such, so I suggest being a caster for this to work. Suppose you're a negative-five level wizard, you can cast a fireball -5d6 damage, effectively healing your friends for more than your average cleric could!

[Damionte]

Guess what... I dissagree on the RAW allowing you to move.

In this case the RAW can be interpreted as written. When you die you are dead. The argument is that they don't define death. They don't have to. There is only one state of "death". They don't have to put the word dead in the glossary just as they don't have to put the word ... "the" in the glossary.

There is no other way to define dead. When you're dead your dead. Dead people don't get up and walk around. They can't because they're dead.

"Undead" people, which are defined in the RAW can get up and move around. ressurected "no longer dead" people which are detailed in the RAW can get up and move around.

With this reasoning I could cast goodbeires on a watermelon. The PHB didn't define what a berriie is. Thus I can cast it on a watermelon. The PHB doesn't need to define berrie. We already know what that is. we also know that watermelon are not berries. (Or I hope they're not berries, hahaha. for the sake of the argument let's assume that they're not.)

The RAW doesn't let you move around after you're dead. If you want to prove that it does, then you'll have to present an alternate definition for dead that is not covered under what they've defined for undead.

If you can re-define Dead you can make a case for this phrase being able to be interpreted in some other way. Until then dead by RAW is dead as is currently universally understood.

Current definition.. Death: Deprived of life, no longer alive lacking power to move, feel, or respond.

You guys find another definition for dead that would allow you to get up and move and we can talk about rather the RAW is broken. right ow the RAW on this one seems pretty intact.

[Yechezkiel]

Surely there's some feat that protects you from unconsciousness?


Hm, interesting... that spell does 3d6 damage on a succesful save, and does nothing on a failed save. Whoever made that up?

Ah, here's an interesting one... since death doesn't, you know, kill you, and since nothing says that a dead creature can't be energy drained, any decent energy draining creature can have you end up at negative level. Of course this gives big penalties to your attack rolls and such, so I suggest being a caster for this to work. Suppose you're a negative-five level wizard, you can cast a fireball -5d6 damage, effectively healing your friends for more than your average cleric could!

Negative Fire damage heals you... as a (Fire) type spell... and only if you're already damaged... I think. But it makes you feel cold. Unless you're already drowning, but not if you are already dead.

This reminds me of stuffing decapitated troll limbs into cans as an unlimited source of (gross) regenerating food.

[Aquillion]

Guess what... I dissagree on the RAW allowing you to move.

In this case the RAW can be interpreted as written. When you die you are dead. The argument is that they don't define death. They don't have to. There is only one state of "death". They don't have to put the word dead in the glossary just as they don't have to put the word ... "the" in the glossary.But they DO provide definitions for paralyzed, stunned, helpless, drowning (sort of), dying, and numerous other essential states. The lack of a definition for "dead", given how common the state is and how many spells and abilities there are capable of causing it, can therefore only be seen as a deliberate omission.


There is no other way to define dead. When you're dead your dead. Dead people don't get up and walk around. They can't because they're dead.

"Undead" people, which are defined in the RAW can get up and move around. ressurected "no longer dead" people which are detailed in the RAW can get up and move around.Dead people get up and walk around all the time in D&D. Not just as undead or resurrected, but as deathless, as people being picked up and moved by telekinesis, as dead people with Animate Object on them (does that even work?) With Polymorph Any Object, you can turn a dead body into another, completely new living thing, with no connection to the old one... and since it's still the body, you could in theory, if we accept your "death" logic, take your best friend's dead male barbarian body body, PAO it into a living hot elf chick so it can walk around (turning the corpse, an inanimate object under your interpretation, into a living thing with a high intelligence score, as PAO allows you to do), then cast Resurrection once you're somewhere safe, using the Hot Elf Chick as the required portion of the remains, and resurrect her back into your friend. I'm not sure whether this would kill the hot elf chick you created, or whether your friend would be stuck in the hot elf chick body or not... but, anyway, the point is that D&D's concept of death is already totally screwed up. In fact, the above would actually make more sense if you assume that your friend is not actually dead when they are dead, because then you're not creating a new living creature when you PAO the dead hunk of meat that used to be them into a hot elf chick and are, instead, just annoying your friend.

For extra fun, trap a person's soul with the approprate spell, then kill the helpless body that results. PAO the body into a completely new human. Trap their soul. Kill their body. Repeat until you have as many souls as you want.


With this reasoning I could cast goodbeires on a watermelon. The PHB didn't define what a berriie is. Thus I can cast it on a watermelon. The PHB doesn't need to define berrie. We already know what that is. we also know that watermelon are not berries. (Or I hope they're not berries, hahaha. for the sake of the argument let's assume that they're not.)I don't see the problem here. In fact, wait a sec... that's brilliant! Have the party use "berry" as a nickname for every enemy you encounter, like "Charlie" from Vietnam. Then cast goodberry on them and eat them... while healing 1 hp for each. Goodberry doesn't even allow a save, although it does allow SR... this also means you can Goodberry attended berries with impunity, then eat them.


The RAW doesn't let you move around after you're dead. If you want to prove that it does, then you'll have to present an alternate definition for dead that is not covered under what they've defined for undead.

If you can re-define Dead you can make a case for this phrase being able to be interpreted in some other way. Until then dead by RAW is dead as is currently universally understood.As I've shown above, though, the assumption that Dead in the D&D world means what it means in our world leads to just as many absurd situations as anything else. I think when you read the RAW carefully and take that into account, there's only one conclusion you can make... 'Dead' is mentioned in the rules, yes, but it's intended as fluff. In D&D, death is purely a cosmetic state with no game mechanic implications.

[Damionte]

But they DO provide definitions for paralyzed, stunned, helpless, drowning (sort of), dying, and numerous other essential states. The lack of a definition for "dead", given how common the state is and how many spells and abilities there are capable of causing it, can therefore only be seen as a deliberate omission.

Ommited deliberately because it didn't need to be re-defined. These others are all things they felt the need to define the effects of.



Dead people get up and walk around all the time in D&D.
No they don't. someone else raises a dead person through various means.



Not just as undead or resurrected, but as deathless, undead and ressurected are, well undead and ressurected. In both cases you are no longer dead. I don't know what deathless is so i can't comment on that one yet.



As people being picked up and moved by telekinesis, You're still dead and can't move yourself. someone else is picking up your dead body and moving it.



as dead people with Animate Object on them (does that even work?) Once again you're still dead. You still can't move, someone else is moving what's left of your still dead body around.


With Polymorph Any Object, you can turn a dead body into another, completely new living thing, with no connection to the old one...

It's interesting to note that Polymoph any object does not say it gives life. It simply says you take that form. so although it gives an example of turning a pebble into a human, it makes no mention of that human human form being alive. In all other ways though it acts like Polymorh. You can make one living thing into another living thing. Now it DOES say that if the old form didn't have a INT, WIS, or CHAR score it gains them. Granted there is no mention of dead creatures losing those ability scores. ... Actually didn't soemone post earlier about dead creatures stats goign to zero? I'll look it up in a bit.

So if the spell doesn't give life then you could polymorph a dead human into the form of an elf, and it will just be an elf corpse instead of a human one. Still just lying there since you still can't move.

If the spell does give life, well then you're not dead anymore are you. You're not the same you anymore, but you're not dead either. Until the spell duration runs out and you revert to your previous dead form.



In D&D, death is purely a cosmetic state with no game mechanic implications.
No death in D&D means the same thing it does in RL. It means you're dead.

Sorry for any bad punctuations, typos, or grammer in that post. It's late.

[Bender]

I don't see the problem here. In fact, wait a sec... that's brilliant! Have the party use "berry" as a nickname for every enemy you encounter, like "Charlie" from Vietnam. Then cast goodberry on them and eat them... while healing 1 hp for each. Goodberry doesn't even allow a save, although it does allow SR... this also means you can Goodberry attended berries with impunity, then eat them.

picturing a druid casting goodberry on "a handful of freshly picked Berries" :smallbiggrin:

whatever "handful" and "freshly picked" means


undead and ressurected are, well undead and ressurected. In both cases you are no longer dead. I don't know what deathless is so i can't comment on that one yet.
Where does it say that undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are no longer dead? It just says it are once-living creatures, but doesn't even specify whether the creatures can still be living or not

[Damionte]

Libris Mortis spends like 3 pages explaining what "undeath" is.

Essentially once soemthign that was previously living and is now dead, get's up and starts movign under it's own power without returning to actual life. It's undead.

It's not dead anymore. It's undead.


I don't see the problem here. In fact, wait a sec... that's brilliant! Have the party use "berry" as a nickname for every enemy you encounter, like "Charlie" from Vietnam. Then cast goodberry on them and eat them... while healing 1 hp for each. Goodberry doesn't even allow a save, although it does allow SR... this also means you can Goodberry attended berries with impunity, then eat them.

To steal a "bit" from the RAW thread....
/sarcasm on
Hey if YOU AND YOUR GROUP want to redefine what a berry is ..........
/sarcasm off

[Bender]

Libris Mortis spends like 3 pages explaining what "undeath" is.

Essentially once soemthign that was previously living and is now dead, get's up and starts movign under it's own power without returning to actual life. It's undead.

It's not dead anymore. It's undead.

I must admit I don't have Libris Mortis here to check the exact wording (and that's what this thread is about), but the summary you gave explicitly says that an undead is something that was previously living and is now dead. So an undead is dead (I'm glad Libris Mortis cleared that out, imagine all the living undead...). Unless, of course, it specifies somewhere that become undead relieves you of the state of being dead.

I also found this in the description of death attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks):
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.

which means once you are dead, you are immune to damage, in case it matters

There can also be a good reason to not want to be dead anymore: a dead PC doesn't get the XP of the encounter he died in...

[Dausuul]

Ommited deliberately because it didn't need to be re-defined. These others are all things they felt the need to define the effects of.

Damionte, the SRD does contain a definition for "dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead)." The effects are laid out in detail, and it does not specify helpless or paralyzed--though, as others have pointed out, if your hit points are negative, then your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points and you're unconscious, therefore helpless, therefore treated as Dex 0, therefore paralyzed.

You can still take purely mental actions, though.

Anyway, the whole point of Dead Man Walking is not to argue that dead characters actually should be able to get up and move around. Again as someone else pointed out, it's about the silliness of trying to argue strict Rules As Written without applying a bit of common sense.

[Attilargh]

C'mon now, we don't need no definition for "dead (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dead).

As an aside, I love you folks.

[Umarth]

C'mon now, we don't need no definition for "dead (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dead).


And yet we have one. We have a definition that explains what being dead does in the D&D game. If folks disagree with RAW that's fine (and sane) but the designers did decide it was important enough and, apparently, different enough from the real world to explain what happened when your dead.

Now I'll be the first to admit that it would have been nice if they had mentioned the whole your unconscious because your subdual damage is greater than your current hit points but after all the other odd cross references you have to do it's not surprising.

As for the folks who keep saying "dead is dead" I'd ask what happens if your head gets cut off? Your "dead" right. Yah tell that to a troll.

[Ceres]

I love this thread. I really do. It's like a parody of all other rules-discussion threads I have read :smallbiggrin:

[Attilargh]

My point was that one can find numerous very different definitions for "dead" in a dictionary, which makes "death" a bit less self-explanatory.

[barawn]

Unfortunately, you only drown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning) if you try to hold your breath for too long. If you don't try to hold your breath, you never fail a Constitution check and so never begin to drown. And since dead people have now been established to be unconscious, they can't hold their breath.

As funny as the Dead Man Walking bit is, I think the "drowned man walking" is a bit funnier and more solid. As has been noted, dead men actually can't walk - they're unconscious, through subdual damage, and therefore have a Dex of zero, and therefore are paralyzed, and therefore can't act or move.

There's absolutely no definition, anywhere, of what happens when you "drown." Apparently, after round two, if someone casts a CLW on you, you can walk around underwater perfectly fine with no ill effects, other than having drowned.

[Jayabalard]

But there's nothing that says you're unconscious. :smallbiggrin:

Also, depending on how you read the soul bit, you could try something sad like claiming that your brain controls your actions, not your soul :P.using the same logic: there's nothing that says that a level 1 fighter can't deal 100D6 (or any other arbitrarily large amount of damage) to someone at will with a single thought while holding a pen and claiming that the pen is mightier than the sword

[Bender]

using the same logic: there's nothing that says that a level 1 fighter can't deal 100D6 (or any other arbitrarily large amount of damage) to someone at will with a single thought while holding a pen and claiming that the pen is mightier than the sword

that doesn't compare to the soul not controlling the body. It is a common opinion among a lot of people that the soul doesn't exist in RL, so there is no reason to give any functionalities to it in game.

That's a mighty pen, but I don't think the fighter is proficient with pens :smallwink:

[Indon]

You can still take purely mental actions, though.


This calls for a PSION(icist?)!

[Dan_Hemmens]

using the same logic: there's nothing that says that a level 1 fighter can't deal 100D6 (or any other arbitrarily large amount of damage) to someone at will with a single thought while holding a pen and claiming that the pen is mightier than the sword

Not the same logic at all. There are very, very strict rules about exactly how and when a PC can dish out damage.

The point with the "dead" state is not that death isn't defined in the rules, but that it is defined in the rules, but is defined uselessly.

It occurs to me, however, that spells like Finger of Death don't *actually* refer to the "dead" state defined in the rules *anyway*.

So it in fact kills the target, without putting them in the weirdly-defined "dead" state to begin with.

[Bender]

I think there is a way out of the unconscious-because-nonlethal-damage-exceeds hitpoints state:

It isn't really specified that you necessarily stay unconsious, as is suggested in the diehard feat or the stable condition

If you are dying and reach -10, you are dead and stop losing hitpoints, you are therefore stable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stable).
Now you have a chance of becoming conscious every hour.

So once you are dead, you just have to wait until you become conscious! :smallcool:

[Quietus]

I think there is a way out of the unconscious-because-nonlethal-damage-exceeds hitpoints state:

It isn't really specified that you necessarily stay unconsious, as is suggested in the diehard feat or the stable condition

If you are dying and reach -10, you are dead and stop losing hitpoints, you are therefore stable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stable).
Now you have a chance of becoming conscious every hour.

So once you are dead, you just have to wait until you become conscious! :smallcool:

At which point, you become unconscious again, because your subdual damage once again exceeds your current hit points... but wait, does it say in the book that dead characters don't benefit from healing?

[Indon]

At which point, you become unconscious again, because your subdual damage once again exceeds your current hit points... but wait, does it say in the book that dead characters don't benefit from healing?

Sadly, yes.

Temporary hit points, however, are another matter!

[Bender]

At which point, you become unconscious again, because your subdual damage once again exceeds your current hit points... but wait, does it say in the book that dead characters don't benefit from healing?

It is also written that you can become conscious while in negative hit points: when you are stable and conscious. This obviously contradicts the rule about being unconscious when your subdual damage exceeds your hit points...
The best solution to this paradox in the rules is interpreting that you only fall unconscious the moment your nonlethal damage increases or your hitpoint decreases, since it isn't specified that that is wrong, while it is much more clearly stated that you are able to act when disabled.

[Aquillion]

It's interesting to note that Polymoph any object does not say it gives life. It simply says you take that form. so although it gives an example of turning a pebble into a human, it makes no mention of that human human form being alive. In all other ways though it acts like Polymorh. You can make one living thing into another living thing. Now it DOES say that if the old form didn't have a INT, WIS, or CHAR score it gains them. Granted there is no mention of dead creatures losing those ability scores. ... Actually didn't soemone post earlier about dead creatures stats goign to zero? I'll look it up in a bit.

So if the spell doesn't give life then you could polymorph a dead human into the form of an elf, and it will just be an elf corpse instead of a human one. Still just lying there since you still can't move.

If the spell does give life, well then you're not dead anymore are you. You're not the same you anymore, but you're not dead either. Until the spell duration runs out and you revert to your previous dead form.It does say, though, that it grants the target the intelligence of its new form, and the wisdom and charisma if it didn't have them already. It also says that the new form can take damage and 'die', whatever that means. I think that that makes it pretty clear, in context, that PAO can indeed grant life to unliving objects.

[Kurald Galain]

picturing a druid casting goodberry on "a handful of freshly picked Berries" :smallbiggrin:

whatever "handful" and "freshly picked" means

Handful obviously means it fits in your hand. If you cast enlarge on yourself, you could fit a watermelon there, or indeed a monster that is significantly smaller than you. As for freshly picked, I suppose if you have been bullying your enemy, calling him names, or otherwise have been picking on said small monster, it qualifies. For bonus points, polymorph into something that has big hands, or try to fit the monster in a big(by's) grasping hand.

According to Wikipedia, a "berry" is a small edible fruit with multiple seeds. Now we know that halflings are small, because it says so in the RAW. They're also edible (because they're stuffed with the good food they make, and many monsters prey upon PCs for food). It is not unreasonable for a halfling to engage in fruity behavior. And a halfling male would certainly have multiple seeds, because that's where small halflings come from. Therefore, a halfling is a berry, and can be enchanted with Goodberry. No save, halflings don't generally get SR, enjoy your meal.

[Damionte]

Damionte, the SRD does contain a definition for "dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead)." The effects are laid out in detail, and it does not specify helpless or paralyzed--though, as others have pointed out, if your hit points are negative, then your nonlethal damage exceeds your hit points and you're unconscious, therefore helpless, therefore treated as Dex 0, therefore paralyzed.

You can still take purely mental actions, though.

Anyway, the whole point of Dead Man Walking is not to argue that dead characters actually should be able to get up and move around. Again as someone else pointed out, it's about the silliness of trying to argue strict Rules As Written without applying a bit of common sense.


Dead
The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

Actually they don't redefine dead. They list the things that can kill you. And what can effect your body after you're dead. The things in green are all effects in game terms that leave your body dead. The things in blue are things that do or do not effect your dead body, and the mechanics for bringing soemone back from being dead.

The effects of actually being dead though are unchanged from the real world.

[Damionte]

As for the folks who keep saying "dead is dead" I'd ask what happens if your head gets cut off? Your "dead" right. Yah tell that to a troll.

Having your head cut off will usually kill you. It won't nessesarily kill you in D&D. Yes you can decapitate a troll, but trolls don't die from decapitation. Thus they're not dead. Thus they can still move around and do things until you actually kill them.

[Indon]

The effects of actually being dead though are unchanged from the real world.

Don't you get it? The RAW has nothing to do with reality.

There is no RAW. *bends a corpse back into movement*

[Kurald Galain]

Random bonus fact:

Did you know that tomatoes and blackcurrants are berries, whereas strawberries and blackberries are not?

[Dausuul]

Actually they don't redefine dead. They list the things that can kill you. And what can effect your body after you're dead. The things in green are all effects in game terms that leave your body dead. The things in blue are things that do or do not effect your dead body, and the mechanics for bringing soemone back from being dead.

The effects of actually being dead though are unchanged from the real world.

Um... no. They give a definition of what it means, in D&D, to be dead. Your soul goes away, your body decays, et cetera. That's RAW, and that's all there is to the RAW definition of dead. RAW means "Rules As Written," and there are no D&D rules written in the dictionary. You're confusing Rules As Written with Rules As Intended.

In the real world, "prone" means you're lying on your stomach. By your logic, a character lying on her back in D&D is not prone, and since there is no "supine" condition, such a character can move and fight as normal without having to get up.

[Damionte]

Random bonus fact:

Did you know that tomatoes and blackcurrants are berries, whereas strawberries and blackberries are not?

That's neat. My Baby brother and I were just arguing the "tommato fruit or vegetable" thing in the car last week. I think he won that one.

[Attilargh]

So because, by (a) definition, a character that is "devoid of life" is dead, what about Constructs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType)?


Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
I just realized Raise Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) is not quite resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm).

[Ditto]

Let's just cast Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace on this paralyzed 'dead' guy, and he's all better?

Temporary HP is the best loophole ever. :smallsmile:

I don't know that I'd agree with the goodberry business. A Halfling does not qualify - if he acts fruity, he is fruit-like. Like a fruit. Not actually a fruit. Seeds, I might let go. Picked is not picked on - you could find other definitions for picked though, like stabbed with a pick. He's been picked! And his size might be trouble, as you'd have to demonstrate how many halflings could fit in your hand - but only 2d4 are magically delicious, in any case.

Show me the stats of a weapon called 'pen'. Otherwise, it's an improvised weapon.

[Yuki Akuma]

It saddens me to see that some people are actually taking this thread seriously.

:smallfrown:

[Umarth]

It saddens me to see that some people are actually taking this thread seriously.

:smallfrown:


These rules so make me want to go to one of the offical greyhawk games or con games where everything is done as RAW.

[Missing Shoe]

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Bla bla bla

Well if you go by just the book definition of the "dead" status, it never states that your hp has to be negative, thus making your nonlethal damage exceed your hp.

If you get nailed with a death spell, you become dead. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Having the "dead" status affect does not affect your HP directly (going just off the rules of being dead). Thus, I would argue that you're not unconscious.

[Ditto]

This is a fun game. :smallbiggrin:

[Dausuul]

Well if you go by just the book definition of the "dead" status, it never states that your hp has to be negative, thus making your nonlethal damage exceed your hp.

If you get nailed with a death spell, you become dead. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Having the "dead" status affect does not affect your HP directly (going just off the rules of being dead). Thus, I would argue that you're not unconscious.

The rules specify in another section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks) that dead characters are at -10 hp no matter how they died.

[Yechezkiel]

It saddens me to see that some people are actually taking this thread seriously.

:smallfrown:

Those people need to read post #10 instead of just hitting Quote and jumping in on the conversation. This is too important to ruin with the likes of seriousnessity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/seriousnessity) or actualismation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/actualismation).

[Indon]

It saddens me to see that some people are actually taking this thread seriously.

:smallfrown:

Raw is serious business.

</wowmeme>

[Ditto]

Yechezkiel, I love that you actually provided reference links right there.

[Pronounceable]

This is great. Very.

And they ask me why I don't game RAW...

[Damionte]

So because, by (a) definition, a character that is "devoid of life" is dead, what about Constructs



Constructs are Automatons and are capable of self locomotion. Thus they're not dead.

[Bender]

And his size might be trouble, as you'd have to demonstrate how many halflings could fit in your hand - but only 2d4 are magically delicious, in any case.

It says a handful of berries, it doesn't say your handful. I'm sure you can find a diety with hands large enough to hold some ogres. A handful is also an -undefined- quantity, it doesn't mean the container has to be a hand.

[Yechezkiel]

The current halfling I'm playing's last name is Redberry:smallfrown:

[Bender]

The current halfling I'm playing's last name is Redberry:smallfrown:

Don't worry, the spell goodberry doesn't kill the berries, not that that would be a problem anyway :smallamused:

[evisiron]

Just to say, this is the best thread I have ever read.

Also, I am literally heading to a Con with DnD tomorrow, and debating whether to use this stuff or not...

Wisdom dictates I surpress the urge to have my 'dead' corpse tossed in a lake, or at least save it until the last day.

The berries however, are a different matter...:smallbiggrin: