Two paladin dip

[PoeticDwarf]

Maybe as famous as the paladin dip in 3.5, the 2 paladin dips adds very much to melee based casters (not only sorcerers), I will explain here why I think 2 levels in paladin works for almost every melee based caster, check it out.


The sorcerer and the paladin both use charisma, and because the sorcerer has metamagic to casts spells as bonus action you can make with your action an attack (instead of casting a cantrip, because you may not cast two spells). Even more importantly, you can go nova by using your sorcery points and by using your smites, together the sorcerer/paladin can deal great damage, for the cost of one spellcaster level, an ASI and a feature you don't need

IF your DM allows favored soul, this becomes ridiculously good, extra attack, nicer features and more spells.



This is one of the only cases where the wizard is worse than the sorcerer, but if you go bladesinger which most DMs will allow it is maybe even better

You still get your spells at will (for example shield and misty step), you get some nice bonusses and extra AC, you get nice buffing combat spells as haste, smites and you can add cure wounds to your spell list, good for a melee wizard, you don't really lose anything except an ASI, a spellcaster level and another too weak (but still OK), level 20 features, but because you get the at will spells and you add so much combat orientated stuff. I'm pretty sure this is a good choice


Go valor and you will be like the bladesinger, with more HD and some less buff spells, but because you can steel spells as fire shield, hellish rebuke and armor of agaathys this is pretty good. Again you get more than you lose for a two level dip, a spellcaster level, an ASI and just one too weak level 20 feature. Again.



I would allow smiting animals, making this pretty strong, but some DMs won't. Still the endurance of the animals and the strenghts of the paladin are making this nice. Sadly, you lose your level 20 features but most DMs will nerf that and most campaigns won't reach that level


Nice melee orientated domains can now smite, the cleric gets probably the best healing and in-combat buffs, sadly you don't get an extra attack, but you do get free damage and those things

A friend of mine just made a cleric/paladin (or maybe we made it together, cause he first wanted to going fighter/wizard), going with his undead in battle, leading them to their victory. This can also work out for fluff, and the paladin level really add something to a melee cleric in any case

So if you want to make a melee cleric, a paladin dip makes it probably better


You don't have many spell slots so you won't smite often, but some nice spells you can use and even more important a fighting style makes this almost as good as 2/1 fighter for a bladelock, paladin isn't the best here, but it would be cool for fluff


For rangers you could go 2 paladin for melee builds, or if you want to great weapon fight, then paladin gives really good features and late level ranger doesn't get many interesting stuff, if you go ranged, better go fighter/rogue or just not multiclass if you don't want to waste levels

For eldritch Knights this could be good, but like the druid, it is probably worse at level 20, giving smites, healing and an extra style for delay but at the end an extra attack isn't worth it then. Till level 20 this is OK

Rogues already get the extra ASI, so you can give that one and stroke of luck for smites, lay on hands an a fighting style, for melee tricksters a strong choice.

With dip I mean taking two levels, also at start

[ImSAMazing]

I don't think for a Bladelock, a Paladin dip is smart. He should start as a Paladin instead, because that will give him heavy armor, and let's him focus on Strength instead of Dex.

[DragonBaneDM]

I'm probably going smite-druid pretty soon here, and I gotta ask: do you think trying for the 13 Cha and Str to hit the dip right off the bat is bad? I want to take two levels of druid and then get my smites on. Would that leave my starting Wis too low for the start of the game? Should I wait till I get my first ASI?

[ImSAMazing]

I'm probably going smite-druid pretty soon here, and I gotta ask: do you think trying for the 13 Cha and Str to hit the dip right off the bat is bad? I want to take two levels of druid and then get my smites on. Would that leave my starting Wis too low for the start of the game? Should I wait till I get my first ASI?

Do you use pointbuy?

[PoeticDwarf]

I'm probably going smite-druid pretty soon here, and I gotta ask: do you think trying for the 13 Cha and Str to hit the dip right off the bat is bad? I want to take two levels of druid and then get my smites on. Would that leave my starting Wis too low for the start of the game? Should I wait till I get my first ASI?

I would say you should wait till you reach level 4 (or even better 5) and then go for a level paladin, begin with 12 cha en str and then get them both to 13, you don't really need higher, maybe you can at the end get them to 14 but you don't need it.

[DragonBaneDM]

Do you use pointbuy?

I am!


I would say you should wait till you reach level 4 (or even better 5) and then go for a level paladin, begin with 12 cha en str and then get them both to 13, you don't really need higher, maybe you can at the end get them to 14 but you don't need it.

I can see the argument for 4, but why wait till 5? The Proficiency bonus and 3rd level spells? And yeah, I really don't want to get them above 13. That's just sort of something that's going to end up happening. Thanks all the same! I think beast damage stays nice for awhile in the early levels of play.

[PoeticDwarf]

I don't think for a Bladelock, a Paladin dip is smart. He should start as a Paladin instead, because that will give him heavy armor, and let's him focus on Strength instead of Dex.

Yeah I know, I forgot to add that beginning is in most cases smart, I mean with dip taking levels in it instead of dip as it should be used, sorry for the confusion


I can see the argument for 4, but why wait till 5? The Proficiency bonus and 3rd level spells? And yeah, I really don't want to get them above 13. That's just sort of something that's going to end up happening. Thanks all the same! I think beast damage stays nice for awhile in the early levels of play.

You get prof. bonus anyway, no matter if you multiclass or not, but level 3 spells are where casters begin to get cool, you can take then a paladin level and if you want that for fluff or just if you want it fast it is better. Otherwise you want 5 druid as soon as you can.

Beast damage is low level OP, then it becomes strong and after level 5 or a little bit later pretty weak, but still it gives you extra hp and more size combat control so that doesn't matter

[Vogonjeltz]

Maybe as famous as the paladin dip in 3.5, the 2 paladin dips adds very much to melee based casters

Are you being flip? This is the first time I've seen this anywhere. In any case, this doesn't make alot of sense as Smite value caps at 5d8 (22.5) from a 4th level spell slot being expended.

A Sorcerer or Wizard could use a 3rd level slot to deal 8d6 (28) damage, or upcast it at the same 4th level slot for 9d6 (31.5)

Or even use that spell slot for Wall of Fire doing 5d8 every round.

Summation: Going into Paladin for Divine Smite access is a waste of levels and spell slots from the perspective of other classes which already have better offensive uses for those spell slots.

[Corran]

I would say that you starting with 2 levels in paladin, is done mostly for the proficiencies (specifically the armor + shield) and good starting hp, rather than the smite, in the case of playing a melee based caster. Having smite as an option to utilize your up to 4th level slots is not bad, but it's not superb either. Between casting your actual spells, I find it a good way to go all in, if you spend your low level slots to smite, and your high level slots with (quickened) armor of agathys. The 2 level dip in paly has actually become more attractive due to gfb and bb (thinking of melee based caster).

As to where this dip applies, I think sorcerer and bard could profit from it, while in all other cases the negatives clearly outweight the positives.

Paladin 2/ Warlock X is not bad, but fighter is a bit better in this case imo.

[DragonBaneDM]

I would say that you starting with 2 levels in paladin, is done mostly for the proficiencies (specifically the armor + shield) and good starting hp, rather than the smite, in the case of playing a melee based caster.

So my issue is mostly that I don't benefit from the armor and druid already has shield. It's phrased "Druids will not wear metal armor" but I really take that as "Druids cannot wear metal armor". So that's lost on me. The weapons are kind of nice to start with, but if I'm spending all my time in beast form (which doesn't seem hard to do) it will never really matter. Plus, if I'm always a beast I won't be casting any of the spells I'm gaining outside of healing myself and dealing extra damage through smites.

I think these factors should in theory mean this dip isn't too bad for druid at all.

[Arkhios]

Are you being flip? This is the first time I've seen this anywhere. In any case, this doesn't make alot of sense as Smite value caps at 5d8 (22.5) from a 4th level spell slot being expended.

A Sorcerer or Wizard could use a 3rd level slot to deal 8d6 (28) damage, or upcast it at the same 4th level slot for 9d6 (31.5)

Or even use that spell slot for Wall of Fire doing 5d8 every round.

Summation: Going into Paladin for Divine Smite access is a waste of levels and spell slots from the perspective of other classes which already have better offensive uses for those spell slots.

You seem to have missed the point, a paladin dip is useful for a melee oriented spellcaster. Divine Smite adds damage to your melee attack. Making your melee attacks significantly better. Let's say a character with Str 16 hits with longsword and decides to spend 4th level slot to add +5d8 damage to that hit.
A longsword defaults at 1d8, a str 16 gives you flat +3, ending up in average at 30 damage. And you can choose to wait for using a divine smite until you have made the hit. Potentially using it only on critical hits, in which case all of the dice get doubled, landing at a possible of 2d8 from longsword +10d8 from divine smite + flat bonuses (with the example above, avg. 57 damage. With 4th level slot)

Now, obviously AoE spells deal out a lot more damage to more targets at a time, but at times, you might find it's better to attack with a weapon than cast a fireball. Let's say an adversary has taken shelter within a crowd where a lot of innocent people are running in panic who knows where, and you couldn't possibly avoid collateral damage - a weapon attack is a better option.

[Arkhios]

So my issue is mostly that I don't benefit from the armor and druid already has shield. It's phrased "Druids will not wear metal armor" but I really take that as "Druids cannot wear metal armor". So that's lost on me. The weapons are kind of nice to start with, but if I'm spending all my time in beast form (which doesn't seem hard to do) it will never really matter. Plus, if I'm always a beast I won't be casting any of the spells I'm gaining outside of healing myself and dealing extra damage through smites.

I think these factors should in theory mean this dip isn't too bad for druid at all.

There's even the fact that in DMG there isn't a single magical heavy armor a druid could use. The only one that's normally made out of steel being Dragon Scale armor, which is a scale mail made out of dragon's scales, and scale mail is medium.

A Lay on Hands can still be used while in beast form, I think, adding some aid to share with your allies, even if it max out only at 10 points (you could also cure a disease or poison with it, twice)
You'll lose only in fighting style, unless you're fine occasionally battering your foes with Shillelagh in which case the Dueling style might work nicely. I'm not exactly sure does Defense apply to your AC while in beast shape, though.

[DragonBaneDM]

A Lay on Hands can still be used while in beast form, I think, adding some aid to share with your allies, even if it max out only at 10 points (you could also cure a disease or poison with it, twice)
You'll lose only in fighting style, unless you're fine occasionally battering your foes with Shillelagh in which case the Dueling style might work nicely. I'm not exactly sure does Defense apply to your AC while in beast shape, though.

The Lay on Hands should work out, yeah, and it's a nice little bonus that I admittedly forgot, thanks for pointing it out! An extra 10 HP a day may not be wonderful, but it's more than I had before.

I'll ask my DM about Defense Style, I could see her saying yes, and Brown Bear needs all the help it can get. Otherwise I might just end up being kinda scary in melee both in and out of beast form, which isn't a bad thing.

[Vogonjeltz]

You seem to have missed the point, a paladin dip is useful for a melee oriented spellcaster. Divine Smite adds damage to your melee attack. Making your melee attacks significantly better. Let's say a character with Str 16 hits with longsword and decides to spend 4th level slot to add +5d8 damage to that hit.
A longsword defaults at 1d8, a str 16 gives you flat +3, ending up in average at 30 damage. And you can choose to wait for using a divine smite until you have made the hit. Potentially using it only on critical hits, in which case all of the dice get doubled, landing at a possible of 2d8 from longsword +10d8 from divine smite + flat bonuses (with the example above, avg. 57 damage. With 4th level slot)

Now, obviously AoE spells deal out a lot more damage to more targets at a time, but at times, you might find it's better to attack with a weapon than cast a fireball. Let's say an adversary has taken shelter within a crowd where a lot of innocent people are running in panic who knows where, and you couldn't possibly avoid collateral damage - a weapon attack is a better option.

Uh no, I got the point. I get that if you crit then smiting makes sense as an after the fact activity vis not smiting at that moment, and it sounds nice to add damage to a melee attack. I'm saying the entire endeavour of using spell slots to improve melee damage is an inferior use of the spell slot:

First off, those spellcasters listed simply aren't very good in melee because they generally speaking only have one attack. And even if they 'did' decide to go melee, they'd be better off using spells to do it.

Second, they are going to have to wait 20 rounds, on average, to get that crit. None of them have significant hp or defense that allows for such a waste of time, and they're more likely to attrit all their enemies down as a group (suffering substantially more damage taken) before the crit is likely to have happened.

Thirdly, yes the AoE on a single target is already a superior use of the spell slot in terms of damage. Here's the single-target superiority in play:

Wizard:
Phantasmal Killer: 4d10 per round (average exceeds max smite damage by round 2 and exceeds average smite crit damage on round 3, average damage exceeds smite crit max on round 4)
There's an 81% chance of no crit by round 4 of attacking. This makes playing the waiting game for crits simply a bad decision.
This excludes the damage from a cantrip (say, Fire Bolt) which, by 5th level, exceeds the 1d8+5 damage of a single attack and max ability score.

Smiting makes sense for Paladins purely because they have no better use of the spell slots for damage. It doesn't exist for them. Non Paladins have more valuable uses for that spell slot.

Druid:
Heat Metal: 4d8 every round as a bonus action for up to 10 rounds (180 average damage) Exceeds smite damage from the slot on round 2, and smite crit by round 3.
Every round after the first the character could also be casting cantrips like Thorn Whip, Produce Flame, or Poison Spray to exceed the damage of a single melee attack.

Cleric:
Spirit Guardians: 4d8 per round, doesn't hurt anyone you don't want it to...so safe in a crowd.
or Spiritual Weapon (combined with a cantrip this damage exceeds that of a regular smite + attack every round).

Bard:
Heat Metal like the Druid + Vicious Mockery which also has a handy rider effect.

Oh and, by the way, the Divine Smite ability specifies that it can only be used with Paladin spell slots (PHB 85). So, unlike the way that spells don't care about the source of the slot when casting, Divine Smite does. A 2 level dip = 2 1st level slots. So at best, +2d8 per smite (+4d8 per smite crit). What a waste.

[Corran]

....
Oh and, by the way, the Divine Smite ability specifies that it can only be used with Paladin spell slots (PHB 85). So, unlike the way that spells don't care about the source of the slot when casting, Divine Smite does. A 2 level dip = 2 1st level slots. So at best, +2d8 per smite (+4d8 per smite crit). What a waste.
While I agree with the rest of your post, I do not think you are correct on this one. Multiclassing means that you no longer have paladin spell slots, or sorcerer spell slots, etc. You just have spell slots, as derrived by the spell slots table from the multiclassing section. So your spell slots (all of them) are fair game for divine smite.

[joaber]

Oh and, by the way, the Divine Smite ability specifies that it can only be used with Paladin spell slots (PHB 85). So, unlike the way that spells don't care about the source of the slot when casting, Divine Smite does. A 2 level dip = 2 1st level slots. So at best, +2d8 per smite (+4d8 per smite crit). What a waste.

You can use any spell slot to Divine Smite, even warlock spell slots.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/12/11/paladin-use-warlock-spell/

Still, Divine Smite is great for a nova round, but with a high cost.

[Arkhios]

Smiting makes sense for Paladins purely because they have no better use of the spell slots for damage. It doesn't exist for them. Non Paladins have more valuable uses for that spell slot.

Druid:
Heat Metal: 4d8 every round as a bonus action for up to 10 rounds (180 average damage) Exceeds smite damage from the slot on round 2, and smite crit by round 3.
Every round after the first the character could also be casting cantrips like Thorn Whip, Produce Flame, or Poison Spray to exceed the damage of a single melee attack.

Cleric:
Spirit Guardians: 4d8 per round, doesn't hurt anyone you don't want it to...so safe in a crowd.
or Spiritual Weapon (combined with a cantrip this damage exceeds that of a regular smite + attack every round).

Bard:
Heat Metal like the Druid + Vicious Mockery which also has a handy rider effect.

Oh and, by the way, the Divine Smite ability specifies that it can only be used with Paladin spell slots (PHB 85). So, unlike the way that spells don't care about the source of the slot when casting, Divine Smite does. A 2 level dip = 2 1st level slots. So at best, +2d8 per smite (+4d8 per smite crit). What a waste.

Like Joaber already mentioned, that the Divine Smite originally was worded like it could use only Paladin spell slots was rectified by WotC ages ago.

About the paladin not having a better use of their spell slots I disagree. Paladin still has their awesome defensive spells to think of. For example, Shield of Faith is by far superior to a Shield, slot expenditure-wise. However I do agree that without the extra attack, going into melee as a fullcaster is not perhaps the wisest of options (not to mention their d6 hit dice for sorcerer and wizard in particular). Even then, if a regular sorcerer/wizard (sans Favored Soul/Bladesinger) did dip into paladin for 2 levels and maybe had for RP reasons the cantrips like GFB or BB, and was able to use their AoO with a cantrip (War Caster is useful even if you weren't up close and personal, as it gives the advantage on "concentration saving throws" - a caster would value that regardless of their supposed role). You could every now and then, without a real investment or advance tactical edge to punish those who thought you would be no threat in melee range. Its uses are situational, and so is Divine Smite in its core supposed to be. If a situation rises, say, as Critical hit for either a full or dipped paladin, then yes, use the slot for a little extra. In a game where you unlikely will reach the maximum level of 20 it is arguable whether it matters if one took the two levels of paladin dip. They would effectively lose only 1 "caster level", and for a full caster, they would only lose one level of higher spells, which they couldn't use more than once or maybe twice in first place. It's a trade-off, I agree, but it's up to each and one of us to decide it for ourselves, not to blindly follow average statistics. While statistics can ring true in effect, chance is not a scientific fact, it's a probability. And frankly, trusting in statistical probabilities is outright boring, it kills the fun of rolling the dice. Trust me, preaching about probabilities can and will annoy other players even if it didn't bother you.

As to those examples you mentioned. yes, heat metal is effective spell for both bards and druids, no question there. However, a Moon Circle druid can NOT cast spells in beast shape until level 18! For 90% of their career a Moon Druid with 2 levels of paladin benefits from Divine Smite a lot more than from heat metal, or any other spell on their list.

I agree there are spells that can be used in cramped situations, and I agree that spells in their own right can deal more damage than Divine Smite. However, all this boils down to probabilities. A 4d6 is just as likely to roll 4 damage each round than it is to deal average amount or maximum. Probabilities are not a factual thing. Keep to yourself with your opinions about probabilities and let others have their fun in rolling the dice and not expecting a stone-set result.

/end of rant.

Btw, unrelated to the rant above, a bladelock with 2 levels of paladin is awesome, as at 7th warlock level you'll have 2 4th-level slots BETWEEN SHORT RESTS to burn for divine smites. I agree that most warlock spells do not fit for paladin thematically, so not using those spells might actually speak for, not against, of using the slots for smites.

[Klorox]

Nice thread!

I disagree about the Bladesinger being a good choice. You're probably better off starting as a Paladin (heavy armor is good for everybody), and in the case of the Bladesinger, heavy armor and a shield is probably better than the temporary AC bonus from Bladesinging.

[Arkhios]

Nice thread!

I disagree about the Bladesinger being a good choice. You're probably better off starting as a Paladin (heavy armor is good for everybody), and in the case of the Bladesinger, heavy armor and a shield is probably better than the temporary AC bonus from Bladesinging.

This is true, and considering the amount of MADness, the fact that you need both str and cha to be at least 13 to dip in paladin, for a wizard the investment in a point-buy environment might not be wise. In the end, a paladin dip is a good option only if you already share a key ability score. (either charisma or strength, preferably both). Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks list high in that regard (for obvious reasons).

This is not to say you shouldn't multiclass if you felt it fit your character's story. By all means, if you can, and want to, do it! Just in general, keep in mind that it has its costs, and ability score requirements are not the least.

[Klorox]

The fact that Warlock spells A) are always cast at max level and B) come back after a short rest makes the Paladin 2(6)/Warlock such a great build.

[Corran]

A 4d6 is just as likely to roll 4 damage each round than it is to deal average amount or maximum. Probabilities are not a factual thing.
You are missing the point, which is that probability helps us quantify this very randomness, and make informed decisions.


Keep to yourself with your opinions about probabilities and let others have their fun in rolling the dice and not expecting a stone-set result.
This thread was about why a paladin 2 dip is helpful to many different classes. To see if this is the case or not, you need to break down a few things and get to some conclusions. It is fine if someone just wants to have fun spamming smite and adding extra damage dice (I like doing that as well), but there is no real benefit by sticking your head in the sand in order not to realise that this is not an optimal plan in most cases. Ignorance is not bliss.



Btw, unrelated to the rant above, a bladelock with 2 levels of paladin is awesome, as at 7th warlock level you'll have 2 slots PER ENCOUNTER to burn for divine smites. I agree that most warlock spells do not fit for paladin thematically, so not using those spells might actually speak for, not against, of using the slots for smites. I find the paladin/warlock combo very counterproductive. It is not a horrible build, but there are many little imperfections that annoy me (such as 5th level slots dont offer better smites than 4th level slots, and spending 5th level slots for 5d6 damage seems a really big cost for going nova, and also reducing your actual spellcasting to smites). Also lay on hands caps at 10, so that is one less feature for your combat rounds. The only thing that makes me consider this build viable, is that starting as a paladin makes up for many things a single class warlock lacks and desperately needs (hp and proficiencies). For warlock, I think diping in fighter is strictly better. I do not agree with the bolded part. I think there is a lot of thematical synergy beetween these two classes. Assume there isn't, why the dip in the first place then?


ps: About the extra attack. Unless you are a GWM/SS, or unless you have tons of static bonuses, then extra attack can easily be replaced by a scag cantrip without losing much (thus allowing you more versatility in your multiclassing, possibly going for options that dont necessarilly give you extra attack).

[Dimers]

Are you being flip? This is the first time I've seen this anywhere. In any case, this doesn't make alot of sense as Smite value caps at 5d8 (22.5) from a 4th level spell slot being expended.

A Sorcerer or Wizard could use a 3rd level slot to deal 8d6 (28) damage, or upcast it at the same 4th level slot for 9d6 (31.5)

Or even use that spell slot for Wall of Fire doing 5d8 every round.

I won't suggest that smiting is always the best way to use a spell slot, but it does have some advantages over many damage-dealing spells: it always hits (because you wouldn't use it if you missed your attack), there's no save, the target can't elude or dispel it, there's no possibility of hitting party members, it doesn't require concentration (which several good AoE/multihit damage spells do), it's increased by crits, and it deals radiant damage. EDIT: Oh, and it's technically not a spell, so if you're fighting something that resists spells ...

[PoeticDwarf]

Nice thread!

I disagree about the Bladesinger being a good choice. You're probably better off starting as a Paladin (heavy armor is good for everybody), and in the case of the Bladesinger, heavy armor and a shield is probably better than the temporary AC bonus from Bladesinging.

I said several times that I mean with dip taking levels in it !!!

[LostHanyou]

Nice thread!

I disagree about the Bladesinger being a good choice. You're probably better off starting as a Paladin (heavy armor is good for everybody), and in the case of the Bladesinger, heavy armor and a shield is probably better than the temporary AC bonus from Bladesinging.

This has me curious - is there any way to quickly doff armor midcombat? This actually sounds really cool as a concept.