artofregicide
2016-01-11, 10:52 PM
Dear Playground,
It's been a long time since I've posted anything here. Yet I've returned for your advice on a matter which is proving too much for my ability as a GM, and only our collective intelligence can vanquish. We have the power!
Okay, melodrama aside, I'm planning to run a single session game of Pathfinder IRL (Let's say 4-6 hours) for a group of tentatively 4 players. The hook is this: the players will be hunting a Dragon, though I won't say of what variety (other than evil) and that it will be a very difficult encounter, where strategy and teamwork will be as important as a strong build. Groundwork will already be completed by the time the game starts, but the Dragon will be aware that they're hunting it and have done its own homework. The Party is aware that this will be a challenging fight, and the dice land where they land. Character death being part of the equation.
If for some reason (and I highly doubt this) you suspect that you're actually one of my players... well, go ahead and PM me. I don't think anyone I know regularly frequents the Playgrounds... except that one guy.
My players are veteran gamers, having played a lot of D&D and similar games but relatively little Pathfinder. They have plenty of time to research and character characters ahead of time, in fact, they'll need to have their character sheets approved before the game starts (not that I expect shenanigans, mind you).
Allowed material will only be coming from the Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Core classes and races only at the moment, with Archetypes and Alternate Class features allowed. The current plan is 9th level, PB 20, Standard WBL. I've had interest in Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, and Cleric. For the most part, I won't be allowing any 3rd party materials, as well as no leadership feat, no crafting feat discounts, and I reserve the right to veto anything completely unbalancing. That said, I do expect my Party to optimize a fair amount (I trust them not to munchkin).
But back to the premise: I want this encounter to be challenging, dynamic, and rewarding. There's a fine line between a party wipe and the party steamrolling the encounter. I'm not particularly good at balancing encounters, even when I use the CR and XP ratings. I am often surprised by low CR encounters overrunning well optimized PC's who used good strategy, and high CR encounters being completely overrun by the PC's without much issue.
Another big part of this is the Dragon itself. I want a big dragon for this encounter. But size increases proportionately with CR, and I'm far less experienced at the high levels of the game. So I find myself torn between running a more simple encounter and having the level of epicness the befits such a mission. I mean, if I tell my party that there's a "horse sized dragon" in front of them, they may very well feel ripped off.
My original encounter plan was: An Old White Dragon, plus some orcish minions (including a crossblooded orc/draconic bloodline sorcerer) as a mini-boss. But I think would be too many foes which would slow the pace of the game down, make it more of a dungeon crawl than a hunt, and an Old White might be enough to wreck the Party by itself. I've toyed with the idea of just running a big, powerful dragon who uses hit and run tactics against the Party, or a few less powerful dragons working together. Maybe even other colors than White, to mix things up.
The setting I have planned out is a snow-capped mountainside, full of glaciers, frozen rivers and lakes, unsteady snowdrifts, frigid caverns, and the ruins of settlements the dragon and possibly assorted company have raided. Trekking through such terrain will probably take a toll on the party's resources, even if just via spells. I'm hoping to use the elements and environment as much as the actual Dragon. For instance, causing an avalanche above the Party or ambushing from below the surface of a frozen lake are in line with the kind of ways I want to have the Dragon use the environment.
The Dragon's lair itself is an ancient dwarven watchtower, long abandoned. It sits upon one of the highest peaks, and to reach it you must cross a frozen lake either by a narrow bridge or treacherous stone steps along the shoreline. Inside, the Dragon has been collecting frozen meat as its treasure horde, and has probably laid eggs (if age appropriate) along with collecting a small number of slaves and followers to serve it.
Creatures/Minions I've thought of using:
Chromatic White Dragons (of various ages)
Chromatic Black Dragons (of various ages)
Chromatic Red Dragons (of various ages)
Orcs
Half Orcs
Orogs
Wolves
Winter Wolves
Wyverns
Hags: Storm, Winter, Annis
Ice Elementals
Ice Golems
Cold Riders
Frost Drakes
And of course, the Boreal and Half Dragon templates are both pretty great. You get my drift, though. :smallcool:
I have strongly considered having a Great Wyrm be what they're after, but I'm not quite sure what level I should set the PC's on. I feel like a Gargantuan Dragon would be big enough satisfy the size qualifications, but I'm worried either the Party would be able to slaughter such a large target, or be completely destroyed (if not high enough level). Like before, I'm not the best at balancing encounters or high level play.
I'll also be customizing feats, spells, and such for whatever Dragons I put into play.
Important Note: this isn't a party vs. GM thing. I want everyone, including myself, to have maximum fun. The challenge will be part of that. Even if players die. But I also don't want to cheat them or set up an impossible, suicidal task. Win or lose, this needs to be an epic struggle. I'll be playing the enemies to the best of their ability, and the Party will be playing to the best of theirs.
So this is where you come in: There isn't a right answer here. I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, gaming philosophy, cool stories that happened at your table, and anything you feel like be useful. Plus if you feel like some of my ideas are counterproductive, go ahead and let me know (and why) but in a constructive way. Worst come to worst, I may not take your advice but I'll definitely read it.
One note: IRL is a bit insane for me lately, so I really can't guarantee quick responses, but I can definitely keep up and will be reading what you post.
Anyway, I've opened my problem to the Playground, and I have great faith that even if you can't fix it, I'll definitely hear some interesting and insightful answers.
It's been a long time since I've posted anything here. Yet I've returned for your advice on a matter which is proving too much for my ability as a GM, and only our collective intelligence can vanquish. We have the power!
Okay, melodrama aside, I'm planning to run a single session game of Pathfinder IRL (Let's say 4-6 hours) for a group of tentatively 4 players. The hook is this: the players will be hunting a Dragon, though I won't say of what variety (other than evil) and that it will be a very difficult encounter, where strategy and teamwork will be as important as a strong build. Groundwork will already be completed by the time the game starts, but the Dragon will be aware that they're hunting it and have done its own homework. The Party is aware that this will be a challenging fight, and the dice land where they land. Character death being part of the equation.
If for some reason (and I highly doubt this) you suspect that you're actually one of my players... well, go ahead and PM me. I don't think anyone I know regularly frequents the Playgrounds... except that one guy.
My players are veteran gamers, having played a lot of D&D and similar games but relatively little Pathfinder. They have plenty of time to research and character characters ahead of time, in fact, they'll need to have their character sheets approved before the game starts (not that I expect shenanigans, mind you).
Allowed material will only be coming from the Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). Core classes and races only at the moment, with Archetypes and Alternate Class features allowed. The current plan is 9th level, PB 20, Standard WBL. I've had interest in Wizard, Paladin, Ranger, and Cleric. For the most part, I won't be allowing any 3rd party materials, as well as no leadership feat, no crafting feat discounts, and I reserve the right to veto anything completely unbalancing. That said, I do expect my Party to optimize a fair amount (I trust them not to munchkin).
But back to the premise: I want this encounter to be challenging, dynamic, and rewarding. There's a fine line between a party wipe and the party steamrolling the encounter. I'm not particularly good at balancing encounters, even when I use the CR and XP ratings. I am often surprised by low CR encounters overrunning well optimized PC's who used good strategy, and high CR encounters being completely overrun by the PC's without much issue.
Another big part of this is the Dragon itself. I want a big dragon for this encounter. But size increases proportionately with CR, and I'm far less experienced at the high levels of the game. So I find myself torn between running a more simple encounter and having the level of epicness the befits such a mission. I mean, if I tell my party that there's a "horse sized dragon" in front of them, they may very well feel ripped off.
My original encounter plan was: An Old White Dragon, plus some orcish minions (including a crossblooded orc/draconic bloodline sorcerer) as a mini-boss. But I think would be too many foes which would slow the pace of the game down, make it more of a dungeon crawl than a hunt, and an Old White might be enough to wreck the Party by itself. I've toyed with the idea of just running a big, powerful dragon who uses hit and run tactics against the Party, or a few less powerful dragons working together. Maybe even other colors than White, to mix things up.
The setting I have planned out is a snow-capped mountainside, full of glaciers, frozen rivers and lakes, unsteady snowdrifts, frigid caverns, and the ruins of settlements the dragon and possibly assorted company have raided. Trekking through such terrain will probably take a toll on the party's resources, even if just via spells. I'm hoping to use the elements and environment as much as the actual Dragon. For instance, causing an avalanche above the Party or ambushing from below the surface of a frozen lake are in line with the kind of ways I want to have the Dragon use the environment.
The Dragon's lair itself is an ancient dwarven watchtower, long abandoned. It sits upon one of the highest peaks, and to reach it you must cross a frozen lake either by a narrow bridge or treacherous stone steps along the shoreline. Inside, the Dragon has been collecting frozen meat as its treasure horde, and has probably laid eggs (if age appropriate) along with collecting a small number of slaves and followers to serve it.
Creatures/Minions I've thought of using:
Chromatic White Dragons (of various ages)
Chromatic Black Dragons (of various ages)
Chromatic Red Dragons (of various ages)
Orcs
Half Orcs
Orogs
Wolves
Winter Wolves
Wyverns
Hags: Storm, Winter, Annis
Ice Elementals
Ice Golems
Cold Riders
Frost Drakes
And of course, the Boreal and Half Dragon templates are both pretty great. You get my drift, though. :smallcool:
I have strongly considered having a Great Wyrm be what they're after, but I'm not quite sure what level I should set the PC's on. I feel like a Gargantuan Dragon would be big enough satisfy the size qualifications, but I'm worried either the Party would be able to slaughter such a large target, or be completely destroyed (if not high enough level). Like before, I'm not the best at balancing encounters or high level play.
I'll also be customizing feats, spells, and such for whatever Dragons I put into play.
Important Note: this isn't a party vs. GM thing. I want everyone, including myself, to have maximum fun. The challenge will be part of that. Even if players die. But I also don't want to cheat them or set up an impossible, suicidal task. Win or lose, this needs to be an epic struggle. I'll be playing the enemies to the best of their ability, and the Party will be playing to the best of theirs.
So this is where you come in: There isn't a right answer here. I'm looking for thoughts, ideas, gaming philosophy, cool stories that happened at your table, and anything you feel like be useful. Plus if you feel like some of my ideas are counterproductive, go ahead and let me know (and why) but in a constructive way. Worst come to worst, I may not take your advice but I'll definitely read it.
One note: IRL is a bit insane for me lately, so I really can't guarantee quick responses, but I can definitely keep up and will be reading what you post.
Anyway, I've opened my problem to the Playground, and I have great faith that even if you can't fix it, I'll definitely hear some interesting and insightful answers.