D20 classless systems

[tsj]

Out of the various D20 classless systems. .. what is the system that is most widely used?

Can all 3.5 and other d20 classes be created using that system?

If not, does such a system exists and what might be it's name?

Why isn't everyone playing classless D20?

I still prefer systems with levels though. ..

[Nibbens]

Out of the various D20 classless systems. .. what is the system that is most widely used?

Can all 3.5 and other d20 classes be created using that system?

If not, does such a system exists and what might be it's name?

Why isn't everyone playing classless D20?

I still prefer systems with levels though. ..

I actually much rather prefer classes non-d20 systems. Whitewolfs d10 mechanics are interesting, and if you've never seen how Classic Deadlands' dice system worked (it still used d20s, but the emphasis was on the other dice, rather than our usual twenty sided rock) i encourage you to check it out. It's by far my favorite.

[tsj]

Nibbens: interesting. Do you have some links related to the systems you mentioned?

Most go to gurps as an alternate system in order to
avoid the balance problems in d20

[mabriss lethe]

You want to look at Mutants and Masterminds. While it's geared towards super hero games, the core mechanics are fairly easy to port over to a fantasy setting.

[Nibbens]

Nibbens: interesting. Do you have some links related to the systems you mentioned?

After poking around, I see a couple links for deadlands classic stuff, but there's a lot of fluff there that you may not want to wade through.

TL;DR - Every player has attributes based off dice. Let's say my strength is d8 (slightly above average), and my swimming skill (which is based in strength) is a 3. If the Marshall, calls for a swim check, I'd roll 3d8. I produce a 2, 5, and a 4. Since 5 was my highest, that is my number. The Marshall, checks to see if I pass or fail.

Interestingly enough, dice could explode. So if I rolled an 8, i'd reroll it and get a 5 - so my number becomes 13.

Whitewolf uses a dice pool (of d10s) where you count the number of 7-10s and the number of 1s reduce that total. The total outcome of success numbers are then checked.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The advantage of class systems is (theoretically, at least) simplicity and balance. It's easier to create a character and there are fewer weird combos to worry about. You don't need to read anywhere near as many rules.


You want to look at Mutants and Masterminds. While it's geared towards super hero games, the core mechanics are fairly easy to port over to a fantasy setting.
I second this. The most recent edition is easily available online at d20herosrd.com. You might also check out the link in my signature for a thread where I statted out an excessive amount of D&D stuff using M&M rules.

[nyjastul69]

I'll second M&M. There is a SRD for it here (http://www.d20herosrd.com)

Edit: Err... I'll third M&M.

[tsj]

Seems to be consensus regarding m&m3 :)

Grod:
Ah yes I remember seeing that thread at some point... now that you mention it.
I wish it would have contained the warmage as well. ..
I suspect it would be close to the wizard though.

My problem with m&m3 is that it is difficult for me to grasp the rules in m&m3. Could you give me an example of how you
Created the d&d stuff using m&m3 (calculations etc?)...

I would very much like to be able to understand how to create the warmage and his powers in m&m3 :)

If or when I gain an understanding,
I will try to see if it is possible to
create 20 levels where all point totals are the
same for each class.... basically

spread all features of a class across 20 levels
same point value for each level
same point total for all classes

[Grod_The_Giant]

My problem with m&m3 is that it is difficult for me to grasp the rules in m&m3. Could you give me an example of how you
Created the d&d stuff using m&m3 (calculations etc?)...
M&M is a point-buy system, but it's also what I like to call (I don't know if there's an official term for it) an effect-buy system. That is to say, what the power is doesn't much matter from a mechanical point of view. All that your character sheet cares about is what the mechanical effect of the power is. I usually tell people that it's a three-step process:

What is the power? How does it look to someone in the game-world? How does the character describe it to himself?
What does the power do? Describe in words-- not rules-- what you want the effect of the power to be.
What effects make the power? Once you know what you're trying to do, fit the proper effects together to make it work.

For an example, let's look at a simple spell: Fireball.

What is the power?-- "I wave my hand and speak a word, and a bead of fire streaks towards my target and explodes. In a giant ball of, you know, fire and stuff."
What does the power do?-- "I want to hurt people, obviously. Nothing fancy, just a big blast of fire, one and done. It should hit a lot of people at once. But it should be precise, you know? I want to be able to shoot it through a window and have the blast come from inside."
What effects make the power?-- You want to hurt people, so you need the Damage effect (1 power point per rank). To do it at a distance you'll need to add the Ranged modifier (+1 point per rank), and to do it in an area you'll need the Area modifier (another +1 point per rank). The precision thing... hey look, there's a Precise modifier (1 point) whose vague effect matches our vague image. Adding that together, you get a power that costs 1+1+1=3 point per rank, plus one additional point to make it Precise. If you're a Power Level 10 character you'll want 10 ranks, for a total cost of (3*10 +1=) 31 power points.

It might also help to think of it like building with K'nex: You have a limited set of simple pieces (the effects) and connectors (the modifiers), but through careful and creative use you can create any shape (power) you want.

The other two big concepts to remember are Power Level and Alternate Effects.

Power Level is a rough analoge to level in class-based games, but it sort of works in the opposite direction. Your level in D&D translates to a certain minimum level of competence-- you will have this much BAB, that many spells/day, and so on. In M&M it's the opposite. As a point-buy system, you could theoretically have an arbitrarily large value in any number you want-- except for Power Level. Pretty much any number on your sheet that you can use to interact with another character is capped somehow.

But, and here's the trick, there are trade-offs. Your Attack modifier plus your Damage (or other effect) rank can't exceed twice your Power Level... but that doesn't mean they have to each equal your Power Level. You can be more accurate but less damaging, or vice versa. If there's not an attack roll involved-- say, with an Area effect-- no trade-off is possible, and so there's a flat cap. Basically, just read this section (http://www.d20herosrd.com/character-creation#TOC-POWER-LEVEL) carefully, because it's really important.

The other concept is Alternate Effects. You might notice that powers in M&M tend to be expensive-- a simple fireball spell can cost a good fifth of your available points (or a full third after you factor in your defenses, one way or another). BUT, because that's no fun and there's a point of diminishing returns to having lots of different powers, there's the Alternate Effect modifier. For a single point, you can have an Alternate Effect of an existing, non-permanent power, as long as the Alternate Effect would cost the same number of power points as the original power (or less). So if we take the Fireball power from earlier, we could have an Alternate Effect that costs anything up to 33 power points.

You can only have one Alternate Effect "active" at a time, and you can switch between them only once per round (as a free action). They must be thematically related, and there's certainly a point where you should stop allowing more. (I usually cap players at five per power). A base power and its attendant Alternate Effects is often called an Array. To add to the fun, you can spend a hero point or fatigue yourself to perform a "Power Stunt" and gain a temporary Alternate Effect for a scene, giving everyone a nice bit of extra versatility.

A Warmage, then, to take your example, might have a "Battle magic array." We might use that Fireball power as the base, and add the following four Alternate Effects:

Acid Gout: Close Area (Cone) Damage 10, Secondary Effect. [[This will shoot a 60ft cone of acid that continues to burn the target next round]]
Magic Missile: Perception Damage 10, Split 1. [[This will automatically hit any target in range, or two targets with the damage ranks split between them]]
Sunburst: Ranged Area (Burst) Affliction 10 (Impaired, Disabled, Unaware; resisted and overcome by Fortitude). [[This will potentially blind anyone in the area]]
Earthquake: Ranged Area (Burst) Affliction 10 (Hindered and Vulnerable, Stunned and Prone; resisted by Reflex, overcome by Fortitude). [[This will potentially knock down and stun anyone in the area]]

Each power adds up to 30 or 31 points, but-- since we're buying them as Alternate Effects-- we only have to pay 1 point for each. The downside, as I mentioned above, is that you and pretty much only use them one at a time. Which isn't a big deal, in this case.


I would very much like to be able to understand how to create the warmage and his powers in m&m3 :)

90% of the Warmage is spells, and the remaining 10% is pretty much concerned with the idiosyncrasies of 3.5 mechanics.
Armored casting is meaningless in M&M, where you can just take the Equipment advantage or the Protection (Removeable) effect and slap on a suit of armor with no ill effects, apart from those you self-prescribe.
Warmage Edge translates poorly as well, as damage (along with most other combat values) is capped by level in M&M, and everyone should be at the limit at all times. Perhaps the All-Out or Power Attack Advantages would be applicable, though, representing a focus on offense above all else.
Advanced Learning is meaningless in a game with custom arrays and power stunts.
The Sudden metamagics are... less simple. Doable, but less simple. The basic idea is that you have a limited ability to modify your spells on the fly, so... it's a complicated and varied ability, so we might need to default to Variable (7 points per rank), and add some Flaws (negative modifiers) to suit it to our purposes. Let's say that "enhancing existing spells" is enough to count as Limited (-1 point per rank), and we'll use the Unreliable (-1 point per rank) modifier to limit it to five uses before you have to rest and recover. Each rank of Variable gives 5 power points to play with. If your powers are mostly effect rank 10, we'll need 10 points to add most modifiers, so two ranks of Variable The end result would be Variable 2 (Enhancing powers), Limited to your Battle Magic array, Unreliable (10 points).


Hopefully that helps?


If or when I gain an understanding,
I will try to see if it is possible to
create 20 levels where all point totals are the
same for each class.... basically
spread all features of a class across 20 levels
same point value for each level
same point total for all classes
As someone who's spend a lot of time with both systems, my money is on "no." M&M characters tend to have high "start-up" costs, but from there it's a lot less expensive to keep upgrading existing powers and acquiring new Alternate Effects-- a character who's advanced a couple Power Levels in a campaign will look pretty similar to the one who started. It's sort of a logistic curve. A D&D character, on the other hand, tends to start a lot weaker, and improve a lot faster with increasing level-- most significantly by gaining entirely new, more powerful abilities, which M&M advancement isn't at all good at. Not to mention the obvious-- why on earth would you try to turn a point-buy game back into a level-based game?

[Quertus]

Whitewolf uses a dice pool (of d10s) where you count the number of 7-10s and the number of 1s reduce that total. The total outcome of success numbers are then checked.

Ok, calling that DC 7, subtract 1s, I've played with variable DC, subtract 1s; DC 6, subtract 1s; and DC 7. Which version has DC 7, subtract 1s?

[Nibbens]

Ok, calling that DC 7, subtract 1s, I've played with variable DC, subtract 1s; DC 6, subtract 1s; and DC 7. Which version has DC 7, subtract 1s?

Werewolf, I believe? It's been a long time. I may be mistaken.

[tsj]

Grod:
Thanks for the information regarding m&m3.
It seems to play a lot different from regular d20 though.
My hope with m&m3 was that it could've been
used to redefine 3.5 classes in to a state where
they were all in perfect balance, at the same
powerlevel and
even at the same tier.

It creates a lot of options for misuse of classes,
when classes are top heavy with their powers,
that gives a 1 level dip some problematic
balance problems. .. on the other hand ...
If it delays power in the original class then
I guess the additional power available in starting
levels will balance that out.

I can see the allure of m&m3 though

[Deadline]

Alternity was pretty close to a solid D20 classless system. I was fond of it. It's main flavor was sci-fi themed, although there were other supplements that included things you might find more commonly in a medieval setting.

Hmm, now I need to see if anyone has done a good Mass Effect/Alternity mix.

[Andezzar]

Nibbens: interesting. Do you have some links related to the systems you mentioned?
Shadowrun's rolling is basically New World of Darkness (also White Wolf) with d6s instead of D10s.


Ok, calling that DC 7, subtract 1s, I've played with variable DC, subtract 1s; DC 6, subtract 1s; and DC 7. Which version has DC 7, subtract 1s?I think you may be mashing up various versions of the rules. In the Old World of Darkness the target number (i.e. minimum each die has to show to count as a success) was not fixed but could range from 2-10 and 1s subtracted from the successes. Botches (i.e. catastrophic failures) happened if you had more 1s than successes. In the New World of Darkness I believe the target number is fixed at seven but botches were handled differently (I don't know for sure I only perused the books once)

In the aforementioned Shadowrun the target number is fixed at 5 (on a d6). 1s are counted and if the number is equal to or more than half the number of dice you rolled you get a glitch, i.e. a minor inconvenience occurring during the successful execution of the task. If you rolled that many 1s and not a single success you get a critical glitch which is a catastrophic failure at completing the task.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grod:
Thanks for the information regarding m&m3.
It seems to play a lot different from regular d20 though.
My hope with m&m3 was that it could've been
used to redefine 3.5 classes in to a state where
they were all in perfect balance, at the same
powerlevel and
even at the same tier.

It creates a lot of options for misuse of classes,
when classes are top heavy with their powers,
that gives a 1 level dip some problematic
balance problems. .. on the other hand ...
If it delays power in the original class then
I guess the additional power available in starting
levels will balance that out.

I can see the allure of m&m3 though
Again, M&M is not really a level-based system, and I see only tears in an attempt to force it to be so. You'll also be bringing back the single biggest issue of 3.5 balance

In terms of combat performance, it's a lot better. The individual effects are generally better balanced (look at Affliction verses, say, Glitterdust), and the Power Level limits mean that people's numbers are all comparable. There's certainly a trend where the more expensive your main offensive power, the more dangerous you are, but nothing on the order of, oh, a 3.5e Ubercharger.
In terms of out-of-combat stuff... it varies. A few things are better-- Remote Sensing is so much weaker than Scrying it's not even funny. Many are worse-- for 4 points I can use a Transform power to get infinite gold. It costs very little to have characters who can cross the world at supersonic speeds (Speed 9, 9 points) or walk through walls (Movement 1 [Permeate 1], 1 point). It is, fundamentally, a superhero game, and it relies on one of the genre's basic assumptions: the heroes and villains do not use their powers to fundamentally alter the status quo.

I like to think of this as combat power verses apparent power. Your combat performance will always be on par with your teammates, but how flashy your powers are, how effectively you can use them to shape the world is entirely up to you. I can make a PL 6 character who can cover the country with perpetual storms, and I can make a PL 12 character who's just a really good martial artist without obvious superhuman capabilities.

But if you go back to 3.5's heavy emphasis on classes and roles? The Wizard will always be more apparently powerful than the Fighter, still. He'll still be more versatile. It will probably be more like a Wilder verses a Warblade, but you'll see it. Better to give them the freedom to pick up interesting, non sword-related abilities with a magic item or two (powers with the (Easily) Removable flaw), or maybe some inhuman heritage.

[tsj]

But if you go back to 3.5's heavy emphasis on classes and roles? The Wizard will always be more apparently powerful than the Fighter, still. He'll still be more versatile. It will probably be more like a Wilder verses a Warblade, but you'll see it. Better to give them the freedom to pick up interesting, non sword-related abilities with a magic item or two (powers with the (Easily) Removable flaw), or maybe some inhuman heritage.

It would certainly seem to make it possible to play m&m3 with a d&d flavor

But it also seem to be to different from 3.5 / d20 for my taste.

However if I played a superhero game with m&m3 then I would most definetly use this stuff to make for example a mystic themed superhero

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ok, calling that DC 7, subtract 1s, I've played with variable DC, subtract 1s; DC 6, subtract 1s; and DC 7. Which version has DC 7, subtract 1s?

Old World of Darkness used variable DC's, subtract 1's and add 10's.
New World of Darkness used a static DC of 8, 10's and added and rerolled, and ones are a critical failure only on a chance die.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It would certainly seem to make it possible to play m&m3 with a d&d flavor

But it also seem to be to different from 3.5 / d20 for my taste.

However if I played a superhero game with m&m3 then I would most definetly use this stuff to make for example a mystic themed superhero
While certainly subjective, I've been running a fantasy game for a while using M&M and it's worked great. I feel like it actually does a better job of capturing the iconic fantasy feel than D&D does. Everyone has trademark abilities with a little flexibility, rather than nothing or an arbitrarily-large list as is so common in D&D. You can play an exotic race just fine, but the more powerful/exotic it is, the more that defines your character (rather than crippling you, as in D&D). There's no worrying about uses per day (which I don't see often in the literature) and no over-reliance on magic items. Just you and the character you envisioned.