fighter 2/paladin X opinions

[dread05]

What's your opinion on going fighter 2 / paladin (vengeance) x? I figured that action surge, extra fighting style and con saving throws are worth it over the angel capstone. Also, I skipped GWF and went with shield master (longsword + shield) to take advantage of the shove bonus action. Shove on medium / small, oath of enmity on larger enemies, combined with hunters mark and action surge can lead to a very impresive nova round. Finally, should I go for a 3rd lvl in fighter? Skipping the increased aura radius isnt a big deal since all of the party are melee characters. Would a fighter archetype benefit me more? If so, which one? The kid inside me says go cavalier (with find steed) but champion for the increased crit range or battle master for the reacton would probably be better.

[Zegrimace]

I think it's a good dip, but I just want to make sure you are weighing the decision properly.

You are exchanging the following:
1 5th-level spell slot
1 ASI which could be used for stats or a feat
Your capstone which provides flying speed and an aura of fear for an hour
WIS and CHA Saving Throws

For the following:
Action Surge
1 More Fighting Style
Second Wind
STR and CON Saving Throws

If gaining the CON saving throw is particularly important to you, you could simply gain it by taking the Resilient Feat. Also the 5th level spell slot doesn't seem like much, but at worst it is 1 extra smite. It is also your only spell slot that can be used for an AoE spell (destructive wave) if you ever find yourself outnumbered. Action Surge is really strong, and what makes this dip worthy.

As for going to fighter 3 for an archetype. You can't go wrong with any of those, battlemaster + cavalier both provide more nova potential, and improved critical from champion has a ton of synergy with smiting.

[dread05]

I should mention that we are playing with the DM's guide alternative rules for the rest times, with a short rest being 8 hours and the long rest a week. So you see, I dont want to rely so much on my spell slots. I see them more like miracles my divine character can perform when we are cornered, than actual spell casting.

[RulesJD]

I should mention that we are playing with the DM's guide alternative rules for the rest times, with a short rest being 8 hours and the long rest a week. So you see, I dont want to rely so much on my spell slots. I see them more like miracles my divine character can perform when we are cornered, than actual spell casting.


In that case, take 2-3 levels in Warlock and pick-up Resiliency (Con) instead of the levels of Fighter. As a Paladin you want spells to be something more than just a wannabe Fighter, so having 2 short rest rechargable slots can make a huge difference. You'll also get a ton of traction out of Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast and Fiendish Vigor (on tap +8 temp HP is golden when you don't get a lot of short rest healing) plus some heals per kill.

[dread05]

I thought about warlock, but sadly i cant really fluf a holy warrior somehow having a pact with a fiend or something.

[Zegrimace]

Having longer periods between long rests, in a situation where you prefer to be stingy with those slots, would make that spell slot more valuable not less. 5th level slots aren't meant to be used for smites. Using a 4th level slot is more efficient for smiting, and 5th level slots are supposed to be for powerful spells (relative to the paladin) when you are in trouble: if you really need to kill a mob, if you really need to keep a monster in its place, or if you really need to revive someone that's been dead for longer than minute. If you have only one slot to do this, for lets say a week, you could potentially find yourself needing the second one more often than you think.

Now, I'm not saying the dip is a bad idea, in fact with more prevalent short rests, action surge, second wind, and superiority dice (should you choose to get 3 levels) will be stronger than in a standard campaign. So the dip would be quite strong. I was just concerned you didn't know how much you are actually giving up, based on your original post.

[twas_Brillig]

I thought about warlock, but sadly i cant really fluf a holy warrior somehow having a pact with a fiend or something.

Understandable. If you wanted to make it work anyway, the Undying Light (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/light-dark-underdark) patron might work better fluffwise.

EDIT: Going more-or-less completely the other direction, and extremely dependent on the fluff of your campaign, Kill Six Billion Demons (http://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/kill-six-billion-demons-chapter-1/) might be an interesting starting point for paladin/warlock fluff.

[dread05]

Having longer periods between long rests, in a situation where you prefer to be stingy with those slots, would make that spell slot more valuable not less. 5th level slots aren't meant to be used for smites. Using a 4th level slot is more efficient for smiting, and 5th level slots are supposed to be for powerful spells (relative to the paladin) when you are in trouble: if you really need to kill a mob, if you really need to keep a monster in its place, or if you really need to revive someone that's been dead for longer than minute. If you have only one slot to do this, for lets say a week, you could potentially find yourself needing the second one more often than you think.

Now, I'm not saying the dip is a bad idea, in fact with more prevalent short rests, action surge, second wind, and superiority dice (should you choose to get 3 levels) will be stronger than in a standard campaign. So the dip would be quite strong. I was just concerned you didn't know how much you are actually giving up, based on your original post.

Hmm, sorry for not making that clear, I knew exactly what I was giving up. I've put a lot of research behind it. It just seemed that one 5 lvl spell slot is inferior to action surge. 5th lvl spells didnt exactly excite me compared to, lets say 3rd and 4th lvl spells.

[dread05]

Understandable. If you wanted to make it work anyway, the Undying Light (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/light-dark-underdark) patron might work better fluffwise.

EDIT: Going more-or-less completely the other direction, and extremely dependent on the fluff of your campaign, Kill Six Billion Demons (http://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/kill-six-billion-demons-chapter-1/) might be an interesting starting point for paladin/warlock fluff.

Althought that webcomic looks really interesting, I'm at work atm and cant really scan it. The fluff of our campaign is simple, its a distopian middle ages europe where people has turned to demon worshiping and the church has begun an iqnuisition to cleanse the world. Our party is in service of the catholic church, thus having me on a pact with a fiend, an undead or cthulu wouldnt really make sense. Archfey is out outright. I really wanted to make the Undying light work but I still had to pick spells* that I couldnt explain.

* I must also note that being a more or less real world campaign, we are limiting spell casting to its minimum. The DM says that real spells are cast only buy evil warlocks and we are limited to divine magic (and gimped at that).

[djreynolds]

Every class gets proficiency in one of the big three saves, dex, wis or con. IMO, you always want 2. Now if you take shield master you will get evasion as well, with a decent save because of your charisma bonus at 6th level. So I would definitely take resilient wis or con, depending on which class you begin with. So you could have awesome saves.

I'm guessing you will go S&B, and take defensive style and duelist. Battlemaster is a good archetype, precision will "allow" you to nova and smite when needed, riposte is nice, you have shield master so you do not need push or trip, and menacing goes far. I would take 4-6 levels of fighter for feats/ASIs

[dread05]

Every class gets proficiency in one of the big three saves, dex, wis or con. IMO, you always want 2. Now if you take shield master you will get evasion as well, with a decent save because of your charisma bonus at 6th level. So I would definitely take resilient wis or con, depending on which class you begin with. So you could have awesome saves.

I'm guessing you will go S&B, and take defensive style and duelist. Battlemaster is a good archetype, precision will "allow" you to nova and smite when needed, riposte is nice, you have shield master so you do not need push or trip, and menacing goes far. I would take 4-6 levels of fighter for feats/ASIs

Yes resilient (WIS) is in my plans to get, I'd have STR CON WIS and pseudo DEX, although STR is kinda underused. Indeed i went with duelist and defensive style for an inpresive 19 AC on lvl 7 and on my way to a scale mail to boost it to 20. Wouldnt taking more than 3 lvls in fighter begin hurting the paladin spell casting a lot? Its one thing to sacrifice one spell slot and a different thing completly to sacrifice 5th lvl spells !

[djreynolds]

Yes resilient (WIS) is in my plans to get, I'd have STR CON WIS and pseudo DEX, although STR is kinda underused. Indeed i went with duelist and defensive style for an inpresive 19 AC on lvl 7 and on my way to a scale mail to boost it to 20. Wouldnt taking more than 3 lvls in fighter begin hurting the paladin spell casting a lot? Its one thing to sacrifice one spell slot and a different thing completly to sacrifice 5th lvl spells !

To me a paladin can be played in many ways. Here you seem to be the anchor for the party, the consummate tank. And you can be a striker as well. Awesome.

But a shield is only +2 AC, yes needed for shield master, but who else is in your party? Cleric, fighter, rogue, barbarian? I like a paladin built for damage, just my opinion, full plate and great sword and using spamming bless. And you can always do this, drop the shield and grab the big sword.

But for me the potential of GWM/GWS greatly out weighs duelist. I hit once from GWM for 10 points of damage, it takes five hits with duelist, and coupled with bless and forms of advantage you will hit more often with GWM than you might think. Let the fighter or cleric do the shoving or even the rogue, it is peasant work for your paladin (just joking), smash and smite for glory. You can always S&B and tank when needed. And with two attacks, you can use one to prone someone.

[dread05]

Good question, rest of the party are a swashbuckler rogue and a polearm master champion fighter. We will meet a ranger fighter sooner or later, but for the time being we are just 3 melee, so damage mitigation is welcome from any source.

[djreynolds]

Good question, rest of the party are a swashbuckler rogue and a polearm master champion fighter. We will meet a ranger fighter sooner or later, but for the time being we are just 3 melee, so damage mitigation is welcome from any source.

Well in this case your S&B tank is the best choice for the team. He can anchor them, and with shield master give the champion advantage. In this case go duelist and defense and spam bless for your party.

[Dimolyth]

Fiend Warlock could not be vetoed - there were templiers` order in real Europe. I just ought to have great backstory - with a pact of particulary catholic "devil".
1) Think about "Konstantin" from DC comics as an archetype. He is vetoed to enter the heaven, but he is actively working for heaven. Definitely "good warlock" (though, not the paladin)
2) In "Faust" by Goethe, Mephistopheles defines himself: "I am part of that Power, вie always wants evil and always creates the good".

Warlock/Paladin would be always hesitating hero. Especially, catholic warlock/paladin. Why do he rests a paladin? - Because he makes right decisions and acts due to his oath. Why his has still the pact functionning? - because Fiend still tempts his soul, so far that one day, the paladin will fall.

Even for biography it can be quite logic - first you need a moment of despair for your character - to perform the pact (by having lost beloved one, for example). Then you`ll need a moment of enlightenment for what kind of the sin he had done - and then he swear an Oath to serve greater good (by taking 3rd level of paladin - mechanically speaken). Never again progressing as warlock...

[endur]

I should mention that we are playing with the DM's guide alternative rules for the rest times, with a short rest being 8 hours and the long rest a week. So you see, I dont want to rely so much on my spell slots. I see them more like miracles my divine character can perform when we are cornered, than actual spell casting.

There are two ways to interpret that alternative rule. 1st) long rest 1/week is just for healing, not for spell slots. 2nd) 1/week applies to spell slots too.

Is anyone besides yourself going to have a character with spell slots? 1/week spell slots could seriously impact wizards, clerics, druids, etc. if you are in a dungeon large enough to rest in for multiple nights.

[endur]

Oops, just saw the post that this is a low magic campaign.

[Dimers]

I really wanted to make the Undying light work but I still had to pick spells* that I couldnt explain.

Blade Ward and True Strike can represent divine blessings easily enough. Charm Person, Command and Protection From Evil seem okay for a charismatic, God-touched individual. Maybe Expeditious Retreat? -- call it "Godspeed" :smalltongue: Though of course you can spend your warlock spell slots on paladin smiting, so no matter what you pick, it never has to look un-paladin-ish. Fey Presence is easily refluffed as an aura of true grace.

Seems to me it's the invocations that are problematic in this case. Few of them are simultaneously Catholic and low-magic. Maybe detect magic and false life at will. In any case, I can see why you'd avoid warlock for this game.

As to the OP question, I'd say that Action Surge and Second Wind now are much better than capstone abilities later.

[djreynolds]

I recommend he takes resilient wisdom at some point, if only he can have a low stat in wisdom yet gain proficiency in that save and add his charisma bonus in addition. He then has stat points to add elsewhere during creation, like charisma and strength, his prime attributes and can still make his wisdom saves. No one wants a charmed or possessed paladin smiting his comrades.

[dread05]

Again, thanks for the replies. The fluff of the character is already strong i think, he has sworn an oath of vengeance against all enemies of the church. There is a catch tho; the church burns the innocent along with the wicked and with every kill his morals waver. I wonder if in the end he will transform in an emotionless killing machine. The devil could easily prey on him then, or maybe, just maybe, he will figure out that he has become what he has sworn to kill.

Maybe I should return him to being full paladin again and keep my options open. Making a fiend pact, or becoming an oathbreaker would sure make more sense later in the game.

[dread05]

Lets say I try and make the warlock thing work. My fluff would be as follows : The Devil sees great potential in my oath. He knows that if i go down that road he will benefit much more than the church. He finds me and he marks me without my concent. Now I have a pact with the very fiend I sworn to destroy, what a mess. WIll I manage to prove him wrong? Or will I end up his tool to achieve destruction?

How can that play mechanically? How many levels in the paladin class and how many in the warlock? Provided I ditch the fighter altogether. Should I aim for lifedrinker, or for lvl 4 paladin spell slots?

[RulesJD]

Lets say I try and make the warlock thing work. My fluff would be as follows : The Devil sees great potential in my oath. He knows that if i go down that road he will benefit much more than the church. He finds me and he marks me without my concent. Now I have a pact with the very fiend I sworn to destroy, what a mess. WIll I manage to prove him wrong? Or will I end up his tool to achieve destruction?

How can that play mechanically? How many levels in the paladin class and how many in the warlock? Provided I ditch the fighter altogether. Should I aim for lifedrinker, or for lvl 4 paladin spell slots?

Generally speaking wait until Paladin 6 before multiclassing. That +cha to saves is just too good.

After Paladin 6, I recommend 2/3 of Warlock and nothing more. All you really want is that Hex, EB, Devil's Sight, Temp HP on kill. For your second invocation I recommend either Agonizing Blast (to have some of the best ranged DPR which Paladins sorely lack) or Fiendish Vigor to always have +8 temp HP up. After 2-3 levels of Warlock you can fluff that your paladin has fought a battle of wills against the demon and finally defeated him....for now.

[dread05]

I'm afraid the DM wont allow Eldritch blast (as pointed above, its a magic light campaign and he wont allow the divine fighter to shoot bolts of energy from his hands). So i either go deep into warlock for 4th lvl rechargable spell slots or it doesnt worth the struggle.

[Dimolyth]

I'm afraid the DM wont allow Eldritch blast (as pointed above, its a magic light campaign and he wont allow the divine fighter to shoot bolts of energy from his hands). So i either go deep into warlock for 4th lvl rechargable spell slots or it doesnt worth the struggle.

Warlock 3 has 2nd level rechargable slots - which is already better then Action Surge on a paladin. But mechanically, I would like to continue progressing as paladin for more spell slots (yeah, recharge 1/week, but still), improved smiting...
Though PaladinX/Warlock3/Fighter2 can also work. No multiclassing before level 6 is good idea for a paladin. Then I think it will mix for RP and mechanics issues - so that`s more DM-dependent thing I guess.

As for Warlock Pact, I would even consider to take a Chain Pact - and treat that invisible imp not as class feature - benefit, but as a voice of inner corruption ("my personal devil") you can try to kill him, or to ignore him, or to capture him... And the imp would appear only when you are alone, so he can adress to your dark side))))

[djreynolds]

sorcerer/ paladin goes together like peas and carrots.

[Sir cryosin]

I'm afraid the DM wont allow Eldritch blast (as pointed above, its a magic light campaign and he wont allow the divine fighter to shoot bolts of energy from his hands). So i either go deep into warlock for 4th lvl rechargable spell slots or it doesnt worth the struggle.

Yes the two fighter dip would help you a lot in this campaign you will be getting a another fighting style second wind and action surge which I think is a good trade off if you don't like the capstone ability more spell slots is nice but your playing a very low magic campaign and being able to thrown spells around you would be looked at as a heretic by the church