Whirlwind attack and CR

[EggKookoo]

Any monster-builders out there? How would you handle adjusting the CR of a creature that makes heavy use of the Ranger Whirlwind Attack?

[Addaran]

I don't have the MM book (i've yet to DM) but i think the gibbering mouther still have a whirlwind-ish attack. You could try finding another monster with similar HP, AC, damage, etc and see how much lower is his CR.

Ropers have a huge ranged attack on everyone in range, but it's not damaging, just a grapple, so not sure if it would be the same. (ranger class theorically tell us that Whirlwind and Volley are equal)

[coredump]

Any monster-builders out there? How would you handle adjusting the CR of a creature that makes heavy use of the Ranger Whirlwind Attack?
Probably not much. Against a typical party they may get 2-3 attacks that way. That's already pretty standard.

[MeeposFire]

The only way where you should really worry about whirlwind attack is if a creature had a low number of attacks (such as just one) that deals a lot of damage and the party going against it would be heavy melee with a bunch of people. Otherwise it really does not help much.

Honestly that is why whirlwind attack is pretty bad for Rangers right now. In order for a "traditional" ranger (two weapon) to gain a benefit from WA is if they have 4 enemies around them. Otherwise they could just use an attack action and their bonus action and attack 3 times up to three targets OR get to target a single target up to three times. Having 4 enemies around you at once is a very niche situation.

WA for a monster would have a similar problem though the less attacks that the base monster has the easier to make it worth it. If a monster has one giant bite attack then having two targets (very doable) works well. IF you have 1 bite and two claws that deal similar damage then you need 4 targets (not so effective).

[PoeticDwarf]

Any monster-builders out there? How would you handle adjusting the CR of a creature that makes heavy use of the Ranger Whirlwind Attack?

This isn't the real CR, but you can look at the amount of PCs there are. The damage the creature deals a round is then the amount of party members (for example 4) and that halved but rounded up (you can't target anyone but you can always switch to normal attack so it gives an advantage and that's why rounded up) (so 2). Multiple that by the amount of damage a creature deals (for example 1d8+4 per time so an average of 8.5 makes 17 damage).

So in this example the average offensive CR of a creature is 17 (not CR 17 but 17 damage per round)

[EggKookoo]

This isn't the real CR, but you can look at the amount of PCs there are. The damage the creature deals a round is then the amount of party members (for example 4) and that halved but rounded up (you can't target anyone but you can always switch to normal attack so it gives an advantage and that's why rounded up) (so 2). Multiple that by the amount of damage a creature deals (for example 1d8+4 per time so an average of 8.5 makes 17 damage).

So in this example the average offensive CR of a creature is 17 (not CR 17 but 17 damage per round)

I was thinking of something like this. Why are you halving the number of PCs? Just to get an approximation of how many might be within melee range at a given time?

My monster might be too weak at this point, but he's basically a greatsword-wielding tank. He has very high strength (20/+5) so he does 12 (2d6+5) with a hit. I have a large-ish party of six PCs, but realistically only 3-4 of them would likely try to go toe-to-toe with him. The rest like to work at range. So unless they try to kite him along or something, he'd be dealing ~3.5 attacks per round, for a total DPR of about 42.

Is it too simplistic to simply calculate his CR with that number?

[tieren]

I was thinking of something like this. Why are you halving the number of PCs? Just to get an approximation of how many might be within melee range at a given time?

My monster might be too weak at this point, but he's basically a greatsword-wielding tank. He has very high strength (20/+5) so he does 12 (2d6+5) with a hit. I have a large-ish party of six PCs, but realistically only 3-4 of them would likely try to go toe-to-toe with him. The rest like to work at range. So unless they try to kite him along or something, he'd be dealing ~3.5 attacks per round, for a total DPR of about 42.

Is it too simplistic to simply calculate his CR with that number?

I wouldn't put too much weight in what you think he'll do every round in that scenario.

Any group with their salt would realize the tactic after the first or second go and either have some melee back off or grapple and restrain him. Either way I wouldn't count on the whirlwind as anything more than a surprise nova for the party to deal with.

[EggKookoo]

I wouldn't put too much weight in what you think he'll do every round in that scenario.

Any group with their salt would realize the tactic after the first or second go and either have some melee back off or grapple and restrain him. Either way I wouldn't count on the whirlwind as anything more than a surprise nova for the party to deal with.

Hm, which makes it not quite worthless, but certainly not as valuable.

I'm thinking of being mean and giving him some kind of Extreme Whirlwind where he gets multiple hits per target. Still makes it a surprise nuke but it ups the megatonnage. I want to up his CR so I might have to go another route for that, though.