Please help me design a 3rd level caster (probably but not definitely a gnome)

[Jay R]

I am creating a character in a 3.5 game, and since I’m a newbie to this game, I’m looking for design help.

The character is third level, and we were given our choice of rule of 13, 4d6 drop 1, or 3d6+6.

Edit: he just changed it to 2d6+6. So I'm taking 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18. I can also trade points at a cost of 2 for 1.

We have been told The influence of the gods has waned, not significantly, but some. This change has been brought about by two things. The first is the return of the dragons. After the events of the Void Corruption and stopping (elevating) Al Ma'Mum, Xinadriel and her kin decided they needed to stop watching and start participating. Dragons are more common. The second is the advancement of science. Particularly happening among the gnomes and dwarves, primitive mechanical and scientific advancements have been made. To this extent, gnomes are divided into two groups now. There are those that cling to magic and the old ways. These are traditional DnD gnomes. The second group tend toward steam punk. They prefer mechanical over mystical. Some, but very few, attempt to combine the two. I am accepting the artificer as a playable class from the Eberron campaign setting, as well as some of the more mechanical information from Eberron.

My current plan is either a gnome artificer or illusionist. Perhaps he left his home because he wanted to combine magic and steam, and his tribe wouldn’t approve.

I just wrote the DM the following: He will certainly be either good or neutral, and either lawful or neutral. My current vague idea is that he is traveling, wanting to find something important to developing his skills. Maybe he is following a story that led him to this town, but obviously, you'd have to invent the story that brought him here. I have the idea that he thinks that there is something worth looking for either in the dungeons below the Tower, or in the caverns in the Great Barrier mountain range. Feel free to either invent some story (true or not) that led him here, or to tell me that it doesn't fit your early campaign, and I'll change it.

So what are the good gnome builds for an artificer or illusionist? How should I allocate his points. Obviously, his strength is 13-2 = 11, and I will buy it down to either 10 or 8. Equally obviously, his intelligence starts at 18, and will be built up. I assume his constitution starts at 17+2 = 19, to be built up to 20. That leaves 14, 15, and 16 for wisdom, dexterity, and charisma.

What are the important Feats or skills? Is there a Prestige class that will combine a wizard and artificer smoothly?

I’m not wedded to a gnome. I definitely want to play a caster, since I’ve never played one in 3.5.

I assume that this forum can provide a sufficiency of help, advice, ideas, and disagreements. What would you do with him?

[MisterKaws]

Wizard is too overwhelming for a beginner caster, you'll be better doing something like a wand-spamming gnome artificer madman with Metamagic Spell Trigger feat and some wand holding items, maybe Mighty Arms for a Wand Sheath(those are Eberron stuff), you'll also want Wand Bracers, and maybe a Wand Chamber. On higher level, you'll probably want to put a Wand Chamber on either a staff or a Rod of Many Wands(yo dawg).

[Cosi]

Wizard is too overwhelming for a beginner caster, you'll be better doing something like a wand-spamming gnome artificer madman with Metamagic Spell Trigger feat and some wand holding items, maybe Mighty Arms for a Wand Sheath(those are Eberron stuff), you'll also want Wand Bracers, and maybe a Wand Chamber. On higher level, you'll probably want to put a Wand Chamber on either a staff or a Rod of Many Wands(yo dawg).

>says Wizard is too complicated
>suggests Artificer
>mfw.jpg

Seriously, Gnome Illusionist is a fine build. Take the racial substitution level that gives you 0th level silent image. You can go for a simple build (Wizard 20 or maybe Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Archmage 5) or a more complicated one that voltrons various shadow themed PrCs into an unstoppable juggernaut. Something like Wizard 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadow Adept 1/Shadowcrafter 7. Might have messed up some of the names.

[John Longarrow]

If you can, take the Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone. All the goodness of a gnome and sooo much more. Dark Vision + speed 30, need I say more?

[Triskavanski]

I'd totally go gnome illusionist Wizard or Beguiler. (Totally wizard)

Uncanny forthought from exemplars of evil allows you to cast any spell you have Spell Mastery with spontanously as a standard action by leaving a few slots open for that.

Illusionist from Unearthed Arcana treats several (if not all) illusion spells as if they were taken with spell mastery.

Races of stone have a PrC for gnome illusionists that allow them to make their illusions a little more real.

[Cosi]

Races of stone have a PrC for gnome illusionists that allow them to make their illusions a little more real.

This is the most hilariously understated description of Shadowcraft Mage I've ever seen.

[Triskavanski]

Better to understate awesomeness than overstate crap.

:3

[MisterKaws]

Races of stone have a PrC for gnome illusionists that allow them to make their illusions a little more real.

Yeah... like... 110% real fireballs...

[Jay R]

Don't worry; I'm not a beginning caster. I started playing wizards in 1975, and have played them in original D&D, as well as AD&D 1e and 2e. I'm just new to 3.5e. I'm much more comfortable with spells than with Feats.

You've convinced me to make him a gnome illusionist. What are the best two starting Feats (since he's 3rd level)? Unless there are two crucial ones, I'm seriously considering Ancestral Relic.

Where do I find the racial substitution level that gives me 0th level silent image?

Somebody mentioned a Beguiler. What advantage does it have over a Wizard?

The advantages of a Whisper Gnome are obvious. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the advantages of a Gnome over a Whisper Gnome are:

+2 against illusions
Speak with animals, prestidigitation and dancing lights vs. silence, mage hand, and message.
Is that +2 against illusions valuable enough to go for a regular gnome? (Of course, I don't know if the DM will allow Whisper Gnomes.]

What should be his starting spells? He will have an intelligence of 20.

And what are the best two schools to prohibit? One will be necromancy, but I'm having difficulty choosing a second.

Love the ideas. Feel free to keep making suggestions. I'm learning even from the ones I'm not going to use.

[Triskavanski]

Yeah... like... 110% real fireballs...



See, that is a little more real. Just a little more real that reality itself.


Anycase advantages of wizard vs beguiler.

Beguiler
Advantages
Spontaneous Int Based Caster
Every spell on your list is also a spell known. In otherwords there is nothing you cannot cast
Can Cast in Light Armor
Skillful (6+ skill ranks, vs 2+ skill ranks)
More HP
Harder to Resist your spell if you can catch the enemy flat footed.

Disadvantages
Pretty much limited to illusion/Enchantment
Surprise Casting requires you to be in melee, and despite being a surprise, you still take AoOs for casting spells in melee
Cannot take Master Specialist
A bit harder to find the right time to dip out



Wizard
Advantages
You can acquire more spells with a greater spell variety
An Illusionist Variant is harder to resist your illusions by having someone spoil the surprise. In other-words if someone is like "That is just an illusion" other people don't get a +4 against the DC of your illusion. And even if they get undeniable proof it is just an illusion, they still have to make a will save. Granted this time they get a +10 against it, but its better than them automatically passing.
Wizard is just a tad easier to know when to dip out of it.
You can take Master Specialist, For illusion its pretty good, as all your illusion spells become silent, still and eschewed.
Disadvantages
Can't cast in armor
Small hp
Hard to know which schools to drop
Have to prepare your spells instead of doing them on the fly.



Two feats to pick up IMO as a wizard would be Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil)


Spell mastery just serves to be a pre-req for Uncanny forethought. Uncanny Forethought allows you to prepare up to your int modifier in spell slots to be spontaneous casting slots, letting you cast anything you have with spell mastery as a standard action. Mind you of course, that the Unearthed Arcane variant of Illusionist makes it so all illusion spells are treated as if they were selected with Spell Mastery.

Exemplars of Evil is a great book for an illusionist too, there is several nasty illusion spells in there. It also has another feat that requires caster level 10, but allows you sacrifice prepared spells for a lower level Illusion Glamor spell. I'm not entirely sure how good it will be but if you sacrifice two spells you can cast the spell as an immediate action.

Some of the spells in there is the ability to make an enemy think it just dropped to 0 hp, cause an enemies physical stats drop by six, and even give you a way out when your being questioned.


As for schools..

Necromancy and Evocation tend to be two of mine. Shadow Evocation and its like can cover a good chunk of evocation spells. Or as Misterclaws pointed out with the shadow craft mage, you can make fireballs 110% real.

[Jay R]

He is now definitely a neutral good whisper gnome illusionist, with the illusion mastery variant, and an ancestral relic.

Obviously Spell Mastery has to be his first level one feat, and uncanny forethought his third level feat.

At sixth level, he will take ancestral relic. The relic will be a staff, which will slowly fill up with spells that can be cast without using charges, like the staff of the magi. It's in the shape of a gnome hooked hammer. He won't be able to fight with it, but it's a reasonable thing for a gnome to carry. Also, at the start of a fight, until he casts a spell, a gnome carrying a weapon will not be instantly targeted as a caster. The DM wants me to write up some of its history for game planning purposes. Evidently the gnome hooked hammer is a weapon with a hammerhead on one end and a plothook on the other.

Since my wizard can't go for Shadowcraft Mage until after Wizard 7, I can postpone that decision. The main skills are obvious. Are there any other decisions I need to make for him now?

Cosi mentioned a "racial substitution level that gives him 0th level silent image". I'd love to, but unless you mean something other than Natural Trickster, it's a Feat, and I have too many now.

I asked about prohibited schools, and Triskavanski wrote:


Necromancy and Evocation tend to be two of mine. Shadow Evocation and its like can cover a good chunk of evocation spells. Or as Misterclaws pointed out with the shadow craft mage, you can make fireballs 110% real.

Evocation? That astounds me because in original D&D and AD&D, fifth level is where a wizard suddenly jumps from weaker to more powerful than the rest of the party, and the reason is Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Is there something else a fifth level 3.5E caster can use that will equal the power of these two spells?

You mention Shadow Evocation, and I don't know what that is. You can't be a Shadowcraft Mage until you are an 8th level character, so it can't replace the major power at 5th level. Is there a power as good as fireball available to a 5th level character with the evocation school barred?

I'm not trying to argue; I'm trying to learn this system. It works very differently from the earlier ones.

And does anybody else have a recommended second prohibited school after necromancy?

[AvatarVecna]

Evocation? That astounds me because in original D&D and AD&D, fifth level is where a wizard suddenly jumps from weaker to more powerful than the rest of the party, and the reason is Fireball and Lightning Bolt. Is there something else a fifth level 3.5E caster can use that will equal the power of these two spells?

The general assumption is that blasting magic is less efficient than other methods; while blasting can be made more effective using caster shenanigans (see: various Mailman builds), a mage is usually not adventuring alone...and usually, one of their allies is more dedicated to DPR than they are, so spells like Haste are preferred for increasing party DPR rather than Fireball (generally speaking). Fireball is very good for the situation it's built for, but there's enough defenses that chip away at its effectiveness that most people don't consider it too useful against small numbers of more level-appropriate foes (as opposed to Fireballs best scenario, a large number of foes much lower CR than the party).


You mention Shadow Evocation, and I don't know what that is. You can't be a Shadowcraft Mage until you are an 8th level character, so it can't replace the major power at 5th level. Is there a power as good as fireball available to a 5th level character with the evocation school barred?

In Core, the go-to spell for increasing party DPR is Haste, because the Fighter or Rogue (or some other primary weapon-wielder) will have optimized their DPR, and giving them an extra attack to work at no attack penalty gives them a lot to work with.


And does anybody else have a recommended second prohibited school after necromancy?

The "schools to ban" lists I've seen generally include these four schools at the top: evocation, enchantment, illusion, and necromancy. Evocation is banned because many consider blasting spells inefficient, and don't think the Evocation school has much to offer beyond blasting; Necromancy focuses on the undead, which makes it useful in a campaign where minionmancy is encouraged or undead will be focused on, but is less useful in non-undead-centered games where minionmancy is discouraged. Enchantment and Illusion are usually banned for one simple reason: Immunity (Mind-Affecting) renders wide swathes of both schools useless, and Mind-Affecting is one of the more common Immunities. Now, figment spells and shadow spells are the general exception to this rule, which makes Illusions banned less often than Enchantment; this is one of the reasons Shadowcraft Mage is considered so powerful: the illusions it lets you turn into conjuration/evocation spells aren't immediately no-selled by mindless creatures.

[AvatarVecna]

=Cosi mentioned a "racial substitution level that gives him 0th level silent image". I'd love to, but unless you mean something other than Natural Trickster, it's a Feat, and I have too many now.

One of the books in 3.5 is "Races of Stone", which presents options for dwarves, gnomes, and goliaths. In that one book, there are some options available that combine well.

Firstly (as previously mentioned) is Shadowcraft Mage, a 5 lvl PrC that lets you turn certain Figment spells (such as Silent Image or Programmed Image) in Shadow spells, which are partially real even if the target makes their save against them. As mentioned, there's ways to make them more "real" than reality, which is why the PrC is considered one of the more powerful PrCs in the game.

Secondly, there are the racial substitution levels: each race has three classes where, at a few select levels, they can give up that levels normal benefits in exchange for a more racially-specific benefit. One of the options presented for the gnome is for the Wizard class. A Gnome Wizard 1 can select the Racial ACF level to learn certain illusion spells at a lower level than they usually could (giving up Scribe Scroll, IIRC). A Gnome Wizard 5 can give up their bonus feat in exchange for all their illusion spells being automatically Extended (which can stack with Extend Spell). Finally, a Gnome Wizard 10 can give up their bonus feat in exchange for giving their illusions a chance to fool somebody with special senses that would normally see past it, including True Seeing (IIRC).

Thirdly, there's the "Earth Spell" feat, which enhances your uses of Heighten Spell while you're in touch with the ground: if you heighten a spell to level X, you treat it as being heightened an additional level even though it doesn't get any harder to cast than a spell of level X (for example, Silent Image heightened to level 9 would count as a level 10 spell for all purposes).

These three options have a lot of synergy, and make Races of Stone a wonderful source for gnome illusionists.

[Triskavanski]

If you can take a flaw, I'd suggest picking up Spell Focus Illusion to really press forward with your illusion spells by going down the route of the Master Specialist. You'll get greater spell focus for free, and any illusion that has Will save to disbelieve has the dc increased by another 2.

So that is a total of +5 (Gnome, spellfocus, Greater spell focus, Minor Esoterica ) to pretty much most of the illusions you could throw out.

The capstone of this all too is that you get the ability to cast illusions "extended", silent, stilled and eschewed for free without any increase to spell level/casting time.

It'll be one of my builds I'll be using sometime myself with a 5 wizard/10 Master Specialist/5 Shadow Craft Mage

[AvatarVecna]

If you can take a flaw, I'd suggest picking up Spell Focus Illusion to really press forward with your illusion spells by going down the route of the Master Specialist. You'll get greater spell focus for free, and any illusion that has Will save to disbelieve has the dc increased by another 2.

So that is a total of +5 (Gnome, spellfocus, Greater spell focus, Minor Esoterica ) to pretty much most of the illusions you could throw out.

The capstone of this all too is that you get the ability to cast illusions "extended", silent, stilled and eschewed for free without any increase to spell level/casting time.

It'll be one of my builds I'll be using sometime myself with a 5 wizard/10 Master Specialist/5 Shadow Craft Mage

Master Specialist is good to get on a ScM build, but I've seen it debated whether it's better to take Wizard or Master Specialist to 10 on that build. Still, if you're gestalting (and the DM is allowing double PrCs), Wizard 10/Master Specialist 10//Beguiler 8/Shadowcraft Mage 5/(Something Else) 7 is a pretty solid build that gets the best illusion upgrades from all four classes; it gets even more ridiculous in tristalt/X-stalt, where you can get even more goodies from elsewhere (although from there the build can get a bit complicated).