A friend of mine wants to be a cool lancer style character. Ideas?

[Skygrassface]

He wants to have an "aetherial" lance and be able to deal damage and crowd control, and have some utility. Any Ideas would be great, as I've never looked into feats for thrown/melees.

[AvatarVecna]

Alright...if I'm understanding you correctly, your friend wants to wield a ghostly lance, he wants to be able to use it for melee and ranged thrown attacks, he wants to employ it for DPR/Crowd Control as necessary, and wants to have useful/versatile/powerful utility abilities?

Am I understanding you correctly? If so, how important are all of these things? Because my default answer is Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade, maybe with a couple dips along the way. Warblade has decent skill/level and has reason to put some points into Int, so that gives you some utility; combine that with the right kind of maneuvers, and you've got good melee/ranged, decent utility, and potentially some crowd control options.

[Skygrassface]

Alright...if I'm understanding you correctly, your friend wants to wield a ghostly lance, he wants to be able to use it for melee and ranged thrown attacks, he wants to employ it for DPR/Crowd Control as necessary, and wants to have useful/versatile/powerful utility abilities?

Am I understanding you correctly?

Pretty much. I'll tell him to look into taking some levels in it, He's already got some levels in fighter though.

[AvatarVecna]

Pretty much. I'll tell him to look into taking some levels in it, He's already got some levels in fighter though.

Fighters levels aren't a bad base for a Bloodstorm Blade build, but even a couple Warblade levels can get you some decent maneuvers, since taking them later means your starting maneuvers can be higher level. Just make sure your friend knows that thrown weapon combat isn't very forgiving for people wanting to make full attacks.

[RoyVG]

The Gloves of Endless Javelins in Magic Item Compendium pg194 might be an option. It creates a +1 Javelin as a free action at will, so you can make full attacks with it (summon one, throw, summon another one, throw). They are made of pure force so they basically have Ghost Touch added as a bonus. They dissappear after having attacked with it, so no worries that they throw them back at you :P. and at only 7000gp, it's a steal in my opinion. One regular +1 javelin costs 2000gp a piece, and a +1 Ghost Touch javelin would be 8000gp!

You could turn the Javelins into Shortspears or Longspears if he wants to use them in melee (Javelins have a -4 penalty when used in melee, but better range).

As mentioned, Bloodstorm Blade is a great alternative as well, assuming he takes some Warblade levels beforehand.

[Skygrassface]

Thanks for the advice, I told him about the ideas and he likes it a lot! a lot of customization in there!

[Rebel7284]

You may be interested in The mount handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=25.0)

As for lances, I was always partial to the Thunderlance spell (Spell Compendium, p. 220)

Persisting that gives you a 20 foot reach lance with the additional benefit of possibly dispelling force effects. Would probably work best on something like a Zhentarim Skymage-> Incantatrix.

For shooting lances at a distance, there are always Icelance (Spell Compendium, p. 119) which is nice due to the whole save vs. stun thing in addition to damage. Regular attack roll though.

Sound Lance (Spell Compendium, p. 196) is also available for simple blasting needs.

Perhaps being a Sorcerer and taking just on-theme spells (and, of course, SOME utility) would be the most fun way to play such a character, although Wizards always work too.

I really like the idea of the knight in shining armor riding a griffin actually being a powerful spellcaster, but your mileage may vary. :)

[Nohwl]

You may be interested in The mount handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=25.0)

As for lances, I was always partial to the Thunderlance spell (Spell Compendium, p. 220)

Persisting that gives you a 20 foot reach lance with the additional benefit of possibly dispelling force effects. Would probably work best on something like a Zhentarim Skymage-> Incantatrix.

For shooting lances at a distance, there are always Icelance (Spell Compendium, p. 119) which is nice due to the whole save vs. stun thing in addition to damage. Regular attack roll though.

Sound Lance (Spell Compendium, p. 196) is also available for simple blasting needs.

Perhaps being a Sorcerer and taking just on-theme spells (and, of course, SOME utility) would be the most fun way to play such a character, although Wizards always work too.

I really like the idea of the knight in shining armor riding a griffin actually being a powerful spellcaster, but your mileage may vary. :)


i built something similar as a gish a week or two ago. wound up with 15 bab and 9th level spells. required flaws and some early entry - heighten, versatile, and sanctum spell were what i used. could raise the bab by dropping incantatrix, but that's probably not worth it.

human spirit lion totem barbarian 1/metamagic specialist sorcerer 1/eldritch knight 4/abjurant champion 2/zhentarim skymage 5/incantatrix 4/abjurant champion 3

[justiceforall]

Then go from Sorcerer into Knight Phantom, and ride a Phantom Steed whilst throwing Ice Lances and hitting people with Thunder Lances?

[ManicOppressive]

i built something similar as a gish a week or two ago. wound up with 15 bab and 9th level spells. required flaws and some early entry - heighten, versatile, and sanctum spell were what i used. could raise the bab by dropping incantatrix, but that's probably not worth it.

human spirit lion totem barbarian 1/metamagic specialist sorcerer 1/eldritch knight 4/abjurant champion 2/zhentarim skymage 5/incantatrix 4/abjurant champion 3

You don't meet the entry requirements for Eldritch Knight. Even with Versatile Spellcaster/Heighten entry tricks, you can only cast 2nd level spells at when you have the build hitting it, and EK requires 3rd level spells.

[Nohwl]

you do meet them. sanctum lets you cast at 1 level higher than normal if in your sanctum, and if you use versatile spell to cast a heightened magic missile, it counts as a 2nd level spell. cast that heightened magic missile in your sanctum and it would be 3rd level.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Which leads to a character not qualifying for their own class whenever they go out to adventure. Not the greatest idea.

[Rebel7284]

If going for a Persistent Spell based character, I feel it's simpler to play a Domain Wizard or take Arcane Disciple[War] to just get Divine Power as a spell known instead of trying to get BAB the old fashioned way.

Say: Human Domain Wizard 5/Zhentarim Skymage 1/Incantatrix 3/Zhentarim Skymage +4/Incantatrix +7
Human: Combat Casting
Location: Iron Will
1: Extend Spell
3: Mounted Combat
6: Item Familiar
7 (Incantatrix Bonus): Persistent Spell
9: Power Attack
10 (Skymage Bonus): Craft Wand
11 (Skymage Bonus): Spell Focus
12 (Skymage Bonus): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Riding Boots: Ride-By Attack
12. Spirited Charge
13 (Skymage Bonus): Enlarge Spell
14 (Incanatrix Bonus): Quicken Spell
15. Free
17 (Incantatrix Bonus): Metamagic Feat
18: Free
20 (Incantatrix Bonus): Metamagic Feat

[Nohwl]

Which leads to a character not qualifying for their own class whenever they go out to adventure. Not the greatest idea.

That line about not qualifying for prcs if you fail to meet the requirements is only in 2 books, should be complete arcane and complete warrior. The standard interpretation I've seen has it only apply to prcs in those books. Following your interpretation of the rules leads to problems like dragon disciple qualifying and disqualifying itself over and over which is avoided with the other one. There are other prcs that have this problem. Dmg is primary source for prcs anyway.

Ignoring those problems, do you disqualify casters from prcs that have a requirement of 3rd level spells if they have no spells per day of 3rd level or higher remaining? They wouldn't qualify either. Never saw where it said location or how many spells you actually had remaining matter, so please point it out to me, I've spent way too much time looking.

If you don't like using sanctum spell for whatever reason, you can use earth spell. I can never remember what feat lets you reduce the cost of heighten (Easy spell or practical metamagic) but that would work too.

You would want sanctum so you could just buy a rod of quicken for thunderlance so you would save a round in combat until you had persistent spell and incantatrix.

[Red Fel]

I think I have an option for you, but it's not one you'd expect - Stormlord.

Stormlord is a divine caster-gish from Complete Divine that's focused on two things - lightning and javelins. The casting side gives you abundant utility. The javelin side gives you all the lancing you could want.

The class itself does require you to worship Talos (or the equivalent thereof), so alignment gets messy, but if you waive that requirement, it's pretty sweet. It gives you 10/10 levels of divine caster advancement, but the big draw for this particular character is the fact that it boosts your javelins. Here's how:
At level 1, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +1 magic weapon.
At level 2, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is a shocking weapon (+1d6 electrical damage).
At level 5, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is also a thundering weapon (+1d8 or more sonic damage on crit).
At level 6, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +2 magic weapon.
At level 8, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is also a shocking burst weapon (+1d10 or more electrical damage on crit).
At level 10, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +3 magic weapon.
Combined with the Glove of Endless Javelins, the character now has an infinite supply of, at Stormlord 10, +3 shocking thundering shocking burst force javelins. Enjoy raining death on your enemies. And that's before the spells, resistances, abilities, and capstone Storm of Elemental Fury ability the class provides.

A particularly nasty trick is to combine this class with the Eberron Dragonmark Mark of Storms. This Mark's advanced incarnations give you various weather control abilities. The nice part of that is the fact that, at Stormlord 3, you are unimpeded by any storms (including those you make), and at Stormlord 6, you can fly in any storm, including those you make. Which means you can literally rain death on your enemies.

[ColossusCrusher]

I think I have an option for you, but it's not one you'd expect - Stormlord.

Stormlord is a divine caster-gish from Complete Divine that's focused on two things - lightning and javelins. The casting side gives you abundant utility. The javelin side gives you all the lancing you could want.

The class itself does require you to worship Talos (or the equivalent thereof), so alignment gets messy, but if you waive that requirement, it's pretty sweet. It gives you 10/10 levels of divine caster advancement, but the big draw for this particular character is the fact that it boosts your javelins. Here's how:
At level 1, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +1 magic weapon.
At level 2, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is a shocking weapon (+1d6 electrical damage).
At level 5, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is also a thundering weapon (+1d8 or more sonic damage on crit).
At level 6, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +2 magic weapon.
At level 8, any spear or javelin wielded by the character is also a shocking burst weapon (+1d10 or more electrical damage on crit).
At level 10, any javelin thrown by the character is treated as a +3 magic weapon.
Combined with the Glove of Endless Javelins, the character now has an infinite supply of, at Stormlord 10, +3 shocking thundering shocking burst force javelins. Enjoy raining death on your enemies. And that's before the spells, resistances, abilities, and capstone Storm of Elemental Fury ability the class provides.

A particularly nasty trick is to combine this class with the Eberron Dragonmark Mark of Storms. This Mark's advanced incarnations give you various weather control abilities. The nice part of that is the fact that, at Stormlord 3, you are unimpeded by any storms (including those you make), and at Stormlord 6, you can fly in any storm, including those you make. Which means you can literally rain death on your enemies.

And this is why Red Fel is the best. :smallsmile:

[ManicOppressive]

That line about not qualifying for prcs if you fail to meet the requirements is only in 2 books, should be complete arcane and complete warrior. The standard interpretation I've seen has it only apply to prcs in those books. Following your interpretation of the rules leads to problems like dragon disciple qualifying and disqualifying itself over and over which is avoided with the other one. There are other prcs that have this problem. Dmg is primary source for prcs anyway.

Ignoring those problems, do you disqualify casters from prcs that have a requirement of 3rd level spells if they have no spells per day of 3rd level or higher remaining? They wouldn't qualify either. Never saw where it said location or how many spells you actually had remaining matter, so please point it out to me, I've spent way too much time looking.

If you don't like using sanctum spell for whatever reason, you can use earth spell. I can never remember what feat lets you reduce the cost of heighten (Easy spell or practical metamagic) but that would work too.

You would want sanctum so you could just buy a rod of quicken for thunderlance so you would save a round in combat until you had persistent spell and incantatrix.

I have literally never seen that interpretation. I mean, if you're trying to say that the Complete series somehow doesn't have broad applicability, you might as well say that the PHB rules only apply if you pick a PHB class.

"If you don't meet the requirements for a class, you lose all class features and can't take more levels" is the only interpretation I've ever heard taken seriously. That's RAW, because both CA and CW are as straight canon as it gets without being core. It's also very obviously RAI, and pretty much all of the early entry tricks are inherently against RAI, but we all collectively allow them because it keeps the screaming to a minimum.

It's between you and your DM of course, but if someone tried that justification with me I'd laugh my ass off.

Also I have no idea what you're on about with the Dragon Disciple thing. The Half-Dragon prohibition says that you cannot ALREADY be half-dragon, which is a pretty explicit exception for the class feature.

[Jack_Simth]

It's also very obviously RAI
Not as much as you might think.

If you pull out the 3.0 DMG, and read through the PrC section header, you get basically the same blurb about lost requirements that you find in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane.

If you pull out the 3.5 DMG, and read through the PrC section header, you've got a copy of the 3.0 DMG header... minus the blurb found in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane.

Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane were some of the earliest of the 3.5 books, and the later books did not include that blurb in their PrC section headers.

The blurb was removed from the core books in the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition. The only 3.5 books that ever had that blurb... were early ones, which also had a lot of editing errors (text vs. table discrepancies, references to 3.0 versions of spells/feats/skills, things of that nature).

Once you're familiar with the history involved, it's not actually that much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that that the CW and CA blurbs are just editing error holdovers from 3.0. Nor is it a foregone conclusion, though.

[Nohwl]

I have literally never seen that interpretation. I mean, if you're trying to say that the Complete series somehow doesn't have broad applicability, you might as well say that the PHB rules only apply if you pick a PHB class.

i'm saying that line appears in two books and the others are missing it. neither one of those books with that line is the primary source for prestige classes. it would be dungeon masters guide.



Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a
table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence
when the short description in the beginning of the spells
chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves
book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for
example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC
races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something
on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or
the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s
Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the
primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary
source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special
material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual
is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and
supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.


the dmg lacks a line about no longer qualifying for a prestige class and would be the primary source in the case of two sources having conflicting text, like we have here. you could argue that it's been updated and complete warrior and complete arcane were printed later and the rules changed. more books have been printed after those and the whole disqualify when you no longer meet the prerequisites rule would still not be correct because none of the other books have it. i'm saying that complete warrior would be primary source for things found in complete warrior and it's rules would have precedence over other sources, complete arcane would be primary source for things found in complete arcane, and so on. since the blurb is only in complete warrior and in complete arcane, i'm only applying it to those books.

there are arguments against this view, but they're more along the lines of only the dmg, phb, and mm were mentioned and those are the only primary sources. either way, that blurb in complete arcane and complete warrior does not have broad applicability to all prestige classes.

here's a link to the errata if you need it. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata



"If you don't meet the requirements for a class, you lose all class features and can't take more levels" is the only interpretation I've ever heard taken seriously. That's RAW, because both CA and CW are as straight canon as it gets without being core. It's also very obviously RAI, and pretty much all of the early entry tricks are inherently against RAI, but we all collectively allow them because it keeps the screaming to a minimum.

It's between you and your DM of course, but if someone tried that justification with me I'd laugh my ass off.


you haven't explained what happens if you cast all of your higher level slots for the day. if i don't have any 3rd level slots or higher left, i'm unable to cast 3rd level spells and wouldn't qualify. following your logic and rai according to you, is it correct that you lose all features and can't take more levels and if so, do you enforce this rule on your players? if it's really rai, how come it's not mentioned in more books? i mean, there have been a bunch printed.



Also I have no idea what you're on about with the Dragon Disciple thing. The Half-Dragon prohibition says that you cannot ALREADY be half-dragon, which is a pretty explicit exception for the class feature.


i'm saying you become a half dragon, which is something that disqualifies you from the prc. since you are a half dragon and no longer qualify you lose access to all class features from dragon disciple, which includes becoming a half dragon. so you qualify again and become a half dragon again. which isn't allowed. so you lose access to everything again. i'm not sure how else to explain it to you, so have some links. it's really not as explicit as you might think.

first result i got from google - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358069-dragon-disciple&
it's even in the dysfunctional rules handbook - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5

[Endarire]

Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0). Download the guide for ideas.