guest wizard/cleric a vampire?

[Yagerr]

Is she the one yhat moves into the red bubble? Probably to teleport them?

Wouldn't she be a different god then hel?

[Vinyadan]

I was wondering about that, too. I think it's because she currently is the only one who made it through Roy, and as many vampires as possible will teleport with Dorkula, since the orb was supposed to teleport the whole Order of the Stick.

[Kish]

Why "guest wizard/cleric"?

[littlebum2002]

Is she the one yhat moves into the red bubble? Probably to teleport them?

Wouldn't she be a different god then hel?

I'm assuming you mean that, because not all the newly created vampires are dwarves, their negative energy spirits won't all be created by Hel.

And this is entirely correct, but you have to remember that it's almost a certainty that all these vampires are still Durkula's thralls. Eventually he'll probably let them go and have their own free will, like Malack planned to, but as of now they're basically slaves.

[goodpeople25]

Really which God then? Considering they are in Northern lands I thought the Northern Goddess of Death would make the vampire spirits, i thought that was the understanding. And well that's Hel.

[littlebum2002]

Really which God then? Considering they are in Northern lands I thought the Northern Goddess of Death would make the vampire spirits, i thought that was the understanding. And well that's Hel.

They were in the Southern lands when Durkula was created. It has to do with the homeland of the character created, not the location where the vampire was created.

[Kish]

So probably Rat for Southern lacking-a-specific-patron-god races, and, as we already saw, Nergal for Western lacking-a-specific-patron-god races.

Not that it matters as long as they're thralls, and unlike littlebum2002, I think Phyrnglsnyx may well intend to keep them enslaved until such time as it gives him some advantage to sacrifice them and do so.

[zimmerwald1915]

They were in the Southern lands when Durkula was created. It has to do with the homeland of the character created, not the location where the vampire was created.
Why would the ushers at the Northern Godsmoot have been from lands other than the North?

I mean, maybe a few of them are, but they're probably the exception rather than the rule.

[goodpeople25]

Why would the ushers at the Northern Godsmoot have been from lands other than the North?

I mean, maybe a few of them are, but they're probably the exception rather than the rule.
Yeah i didn't mention that part, cause i thought it was pretty likely/obvious most if not all of them are northern.

[littlebum2002]

Why would the ushers at the Northern Godsmoot have been from lands other than the North?

I mean, maybe a few of them are, but they're probably the exception rather than the rule.


Yeah i didn't mention that part, cause i thought it was pretty likely/obvious most if not all of them are northern.

Well, I agree they probably all currently live in the North, but again, where they're living is irrelevant. It's where they're from that counts. It's entirely possible that they are from all over the place. I don't know how often people emigrate to the North, so I don't know how common that is.

I mean, can you imagine seeing people in NYC and saying "they work here, therefore they must have been born here"?

[Vinyadan]

Well, I agree they probably all currently live in the North, but again, where they're living from is irrelevant. It's where they're from that counts. It's entirely possible that they are from all over the place. I don't know how often people emigrate to the North, so I don't know how common that is.

I mean, can you imagine seeing people in NYC and saying "they work here, therefore they must have been born here"?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

I am not sure that origin ALWAYS trumps current place. Actually, I have the feeling that it usually doesn't, unless it's a very specific domain ("dwarven vampire spirits!"). The strip however shows that gods do have a certain autority based on location which also affects people born abroad.

[zimmerwald1915]

I mean, can you imagine seeing people in NYC and saying "they work here, therefore they must have been born here"?
Er, yes? Most of the time such a supposition will be right. Only a little over a third of New Yorkers are foreign-born, and New York doesn't get much internal immigration from the rest of the United States (in fact, its net internal migration is outward).

But the comparison isn't apt. New York is an uncommonly cosmopolitan city; so is Cliffport. But the Godsmoot isn't being held in Cliffport, it's being held in the ass end of nowhere.

[goodpeople25]

Even with magic it's not like there are magic powered trains. :smallsmile:
Outside of adventurers most people probably don't leave there homelands or even hometown all that often. And while these are clerics i think its more likely they too stay in one place most of the time thus recutiment would be mostly northern I would expect.

[Kish]

Why does it matter? The High Priest of Sunna and the High Priestess of Sif appear to be both Northern humans, so presumably their souls were birthed in the hall of the same god as Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's, yet one is a priest of Sunna, one is a priest of Sif, two seem to be largely nonreligious and one claims to be a priest of um yeah. Vampires have free will, the presence of two extremely Lawful Evil vampire clerics in the comic to date aside.

[littlebum2002]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html

I am not sure that origin ALWAYS trumps current place. Actually, I have the feeling that it usually doesn't, unless it's a very specific domain ("dwarven vampire spirits!"). The strip however shows that gods do have a certain autority based on location which also affects people born abroad.

Considering that I AM talking about a very specific domain (human vampire spirits), I don't see what this argument beings to the conversation.

We know a dwarf born in the north who has lived in the south his whole life and died in the south is vamped by a Northern deity. Therefore, we have seen evidence that where someone lives and dies has no influence on who vamps their body.

Durkon was vamped by Hel for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) He's a dwarf, and she vamps all dwarves, or
2) He was born in the North, and she vamps everyone born in the north (which includes the overwhelming majority of dwarves)

If 1) is correct, then for all we know there is a separate deity who vamps all humans regardless of birthplace. If 2) is correct then we simply wonder if every human vamped here was born in the north, which is very likely but far from a certainty.



Er, yes? Most of the time such a supposition will be right. Only a little over a third of New Yorkers are foreign-born, and New York doesn't get much internal immigration from the rest of the United States (in fact, its net internal migration is outward).

But the comparison isn't apt. New York is an uncommonly cosmopolitan city; so is Cliffport. But the Godsmoot isn't being held in Cliffport, it's being held in the ass end of nowhere.

In the ass end of nowhere. In fact, it looks so desolate that there probably aren't many people around. SO where did they get people to work the moot? Probably from surrounding towns and villages. And where do to those people copme from? Who knows.

[Jasdoif]

Durkon was vamped by Hel for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) He's a dwarf, and she vamps all dwarves, or
2) He was born in the North, and she vamps everyone born in the north (which includes the overwhelming majority of dwarves)I'm going to go for option "just because you have two choices doesn't mean either of them are correct": that Hel's involved because she creates the vampire spirit for anyone who falls under the domain of the Northern gods, which may not have anything to do with whether they're a dwarf or whether they were born in the North.

At the very least, followers of the Northern Pantheon or one/some of its constituent deities (say, a cleric of Thor, and perhaps a less pious fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)) would sensically fall under the domain of the Northern gods. Which does mean there isn't a clear answer in there for clerics that specifically don't worship deities, much less a member of a pantheon....


Hel is able to put that spirit into Durkon's body because of the physical vampirization process that Malack enacts on Durkon's corpse, which opens a door to Negative Energy and traps Durkon's spirit inside it. Which would also be true of any other vampire created from a person who fell under the Northern Pantheon's domain...
....
She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires.

[Pyrous]

Durkon was vamped by Hel for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) He's a dwarf, and she vamps all dwarves, or
2) He was born in the North, and she vamps everyone born in the north (which includes the overwhelming majority of dwarves)


Or:

3) Creatures with a racial god get vamp spirits from the undeath god of the racial god patheon; creatures without a racial god get vamp spirits from the undeath god of the region they were vamped.

Simplicity is on your side, though.

[Vinyadan]

Considering that I AM talking about a very specific domain (human vampire spirits), I don't see what this argument beings to the conversation.

We know a dwarf born in the north who has lived in the south his whole life and died in the south is vamped by a Northern deity. Therefore, we have seen evidence that where someone lives and dies has no influence on who vamps their body.

Durkon was vamped by Hel for 1 of 2 reasons:

1) He's a dwarf, and she vamps all dwarves, or
2) He was born in the North, and she vamps everyone born in the north (which includes the overwhelming majority of dwarves)

If 1) is correct, then for all we know there is a separate deity who vamps all humans regardless of birthplace. If 2) is correct then we simply wonder if every human vamped here was born in the north, which is very likely but far from a certainty.

I added a few bolds. The thing is, we know for sure that dwarves fall under Hel's supervision (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) when creating dwarf vampire spirits. We don't know that humans also do. But what we really have seen is that Durkon's race determined who created the spirit, and Hel says no word about where Durkon was born. If all Dwarves fall under her supervision, even the child of an immigrated dwarf, born and raised in Gobbotopia, would still fall under her purview.

Given that the gods have special rights in certain territories, and that they can stop other gods from intervening on the behalf of their followers, I assume that they can also have other special authorities about what happens in their lands: for example, who vamps whom. Hel has a special relationship with the dwarves, as Thor also does, given that their afterlife works on a honor/dishonor system, instead of the 9 alignements. This leads me to believe that dwarves being vamped by Hel everywhere, anywhere are a special exception, and that normally vamping may happen on a territorial basis. We have also never been told that humans have any god with which they have such a relationship; this is why I don't believe that there is a god with an exclusive responsibility over human vampires. As it may have already been noticed, they are all Hel's vampires right now because they all are thralled.

Besides, the dwarf born in the north has also spent much of his life in the northern lands: the humans of the Order are called northerners, and Durkon was vamped in the western continent, after having shortly resided in the southern lands (Azure City).

Do you now see something brought to the conversation (beside my spelling mistakes)? :smalltongue:
EDIT: Oh well, the Giant's comment makes much of my answer useless and incorrect.

[littlebum2002]

I'm going to go for option "just because you have two choices doesn't mean either of them are correct": that Hel's involved because she creates the vampire spirit for anyone who falls under the domain of the Northern gods, which may not have anything to do with whether they're a dwarf or whether they were born in the North.

At the very least, followers of the Northern Pantheon or one/some of its constituent deities (say, a cleric of Thor, and perhaps a less pious fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html)) would sensically fall under the domain of the Northern gods. Which does mean there isn't a clear answer in there for clerics that specifically don't worship deities, much less a member of a pantheon....

I think we're saying the same thing. I know Hel was able to create the spirit because Durkon fell under the domain of the Northern Pantheon; what I'm trying to figure out is WHY he fell under the domain of the northern pantheon.

I personally think that every person gets vamped by the death deity of their home pantheon. Since dwarfs are from the north, they are vamped by Hel.

[Jasdoif]

I think we're saying the same thing. I know Hel was able to create the spirit because Durkon fell under the domain of the Northern Pantheon; what I'm trying to figure out is WHY he fell under the domain of the northern pantheon.And I'm saying that's almost certainly because Durkon's a worshiper of a deity of the Northern pantheon (Thor), and that where he was born/lived/died would have nothing to do with it as a result....And that because of that, there's nothing to extrapolate from to determine the origin of the vampire spirits in HPoH's retinue.

That all (as far as I can remember) the Northern worshipers we know of come from Northern lands, which are presumably called such because of the Northern pantheon's influence there, seems more like correlation than causation.

[Pyrous]

And I'm saying that's almost certainly because Durkon's a worshiper of a deity of the Northern pantheon (Thor), and that where he was born/lived/died would have nothing to do with it as a result....And that because of that, there's nothing to extrapolate from to determine the origin of the vampire spirits in HPoH's retinue.

That all (as far as I can remember) the Northern worshipers we know of come from Northern lands, which are presumably called such because of the Northern pantheon's influence there, seems more like correlation than causation.

The problem with this line of thought is that Hel said that the dwarves fall under her purview (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). If we believe her, Durkon could worship Nergal and Phyrnglsnyx's spirit would have been birthed in Hel's hall anyway.

[137beth]

Okay, I'm missing something (probably due to lack of sleep)...who is the "guest wizard/cleric"?:confused:

[Jasdoif]

The problem with this line of thought is that Hel said that the dwarves fall under her purview (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html). If we believe her, Durkon could worship Nergal and Phyrnglsnyx's spirit would have been birthed in Hel's hall anyway.Does she mean being a dwarf automatically puts one in the Northern pantheon's domain (and her purview in the sense meant there)? Does she mean all dwarves have chosen to be worshipers of the Northern pantheon? Does she mean all dwarves that aren't worshipers of a particular pantheon fall under the Northern pantheon's domain? Does she feel her special status with regard to dwarves who die without honor should be extended to all dwarves? Does she gloss over statistical anomalies so as not to undercut her introduction scene?

So many questions that might be answered, if only we had seen a dwarf born in the Southern lands who worshiped the Western pantheon who subsequently became a vampire....


Okay, I'm missing something (probably due to lack of sleep)...who is the "guest wizard/cleric"?:confused:I think the post is missing clarity...but deep banan-analysis suggests Veldrina is most likely the individual being asked about.

[Vinyadan]

I think the post is missing clarity...but deep banan-analysis suggests Veldrina is most likely the individual being asked about.

Uh, so that's what the OP meant? @OP she wears a different armor, has her hair combed differently and is wearing a Creed of Stone pendant instead of the previous one, so I think she is a different person.

[Jasdoif]

Uh, so that's what the OP meant?I admit there's a lot of guessing on my part, however....
"guest" could mean "kickstarter cameo character" (as in "guest star").
"wizard/cleric" could be describe a spellcaster of unknown type by someone who wasn't familiar with favored souls.
Veldrina wanting the teleport orb before Vaarsuvius bought it could suggest they're able to use it in a way clerics are not (building off the "wizard/cleric" confusion), hence "probably to teleport them"
Veldrina representing the Western pantheon could suggest Hel (who is not in the Western pantheon) wouldn't create the vampire spirit if Veldrina were to be turned into a vampire, hence "different god than Hel".
Since it all fits together I figure it's plausible, at the very least.

[Kish]

If that's what the OP meant by "guest wizard/cleric," then:

1) Her name's Veldrina.
2) She's a Favored Soul. That's a class.
3) No.

[137beth]

I think the post is missing clarity...but deep banan-analysis suggests Veldrina is most likely the individual being asked about.

Well, "guest" matches Vel...but she is neither a wizard, cleric, nor a vampire:smallconfused:

[ti'esar]

You know, actually, the "grumpy female vampire" does have hair that looks faintly like Veldrina's. Since we need a new wacky theory based off of coincidental resemblances between stick figures now that all the Haley theories haven't been mentioned in a while, I'm going to put my 10 cp on it being her long-lost half-sister Anirdlev.

[goodpeople25]

You know, actually, the "grumpy female vampire" does have hair that looks faintly like Veldrina's. Since we need a new wacky theory based off of coincidental resemblances between stick figures now that all the Haley theories haven't been mentioned in a while, I'm going to put my 10 cp on it being her long-lost half-sister Anirdlev.
Wouldn't that be Anirveld or Dlevrina ect, ?

They are half sisters :smallbiggrin:

[Vinyadan]

You know, actually, the "grumpy female vampire" does have hair that looks faintly like Veldrina's. Since we need a new wacky theory based off of coincidental resemblances between stick figures now that all the Haley theories haven't been mentioned in a while, I'm going to put my 10 cp on it being her long-lost half-sister Anirdlev.

Veldrina is half-celestial half-vampire.:smallcool:

[Murk]

It does make sense to be a long-lost sister. Veldrina is over-enthusiastic, often happy and cheery and spirituous. Grumpy Vampire, on the other hand, is stoic, calm, single minded and grumpy.

As we all know, long lost sisters are always the complete opposite of the not lost sister.