Has Roy forgotten about Celia?

[Oerlaf]

It seems that in heat of the battle Roy forgot that Celia is an outsider.

She could actually pass the antilife shell as stated in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm)

[Zwiebelchen]

It seems that in heat of the battle Roy forgot that Celia is an outsider.

She could actually pass the antilife shell as stated in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm)
1) that ship has sailed already; Durkula is about to teleport
2) he has no means of calling her; Haley broke the pendant to summon her already
3) she made clear that she does not like fighting
4) lightning is not very effective against vampires anyway
5) Celia in particular is not very effective against anything highlevel
6) she is not protected by the rules of the godsmoot
7) this is not her story anyway; this is about Roy, Durkon and Belkar

[UristMcRandom]

And how exactly would Roy call Celia to this top secret meeting in the mountains from the Plane of Elemental Air? Even if he had a way to summon her, it'd probably violate the rules limiting the number of bodyguards allowed. Then you have the fact that Celia is a staunch pacifist, even when fighting is for the greater good (though I'm not sure where she falls on the dusting of undead abominations).

EDIT: Ninja'd. I think I failed a Spot check.

[Zwiebelchen]

On a side note, it feels a bit weird that Celia didn't give Roy another pendant.
I mean, he's clearly her boyfriend. Sure, she can see him if she wants to, but he can not.

What if he has sudden urges? Sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship to me... "don't call me, I'll call you!". :smallbiggrin:

[Emperordaniel]

On a side note, it feels a bit weird that Celia didn't give Roy another pendant.
I mean, he's clearly her boyfriend. Sure, she can see him if she wants to, but he can not.

What if he has sudden urges? Sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship to me... "don't call me, I'll call you!". :smallbiggrin:

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png "It is NOT a booty talisman."

[Zwiebelchen]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png "It is NOT a booty talisman."
Of course not. That would be conflict of interest in any lawsuit. ;)

[Mad Humanist]

On a side note, it feels a bit weird that Celia didn't give Roy another pendant.


Actually Roy had no way of activating it. It required electricity.

[Zwiebelchen]

Actually Roy had no way of activating it. It required electricity.
I'm pretty sure that when the need arises, you'd find a balloon or two to rub your head against to get properly electrified.

[Emperordaniel]

I'm pretty sure that when the need arises, you'd find a balloon or two to rub your head against to get properly electrified.

Roy is bald, I think you need hair for that balloon trick to work.

[8BitNinja]

It was either girls or D&D

Roy chose D&D, and played with Gary Gygax

[hroþila]

True, Celia could enter the Antilife Shell and, once inside... play pattycake with Durkon or something?

[littlebum2002]

It seems that in heat of the battle Roy forgot that Celia is an outsider.

She could actually pass the antilife shell as stated in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm)

How would Roy know that outsiders could enter the Antilife shell? Durkon never told him, and his wizard with Spellcraft is back on the ship. In fact, for all we know the Antilife shell works differently in this universe and keeps Outsiders out as well.


1) that ship has sailed already; Durkula is about to teleport
2) he has no means of calling her; Haley broke the pendant to summon her already
3) she made clear that she does not like fighting
4) lightning is not very effective against vampires anyway
5) Celia in particular is not very effective against anything highlevel
6) she is not protected by the rules of the godsmoot
7) this is not her story anyway; this is about Roy, Durkon and Belkar

All of these are correct, with the possible exception that Celia would have no problem fighting undead, as she did fight golems without hesitation.

[wumpus]

All of these are correct, with the possible exception that Celia would have no problem fighting undead, as she did fight golems without hesitation.

Note that the "always evil, no longer the same Durkon" effect is hardly known at all (only one on-screen cleric has made the skill check). Celia may have still have issues with this fight.

[Murk]

Note that the "always evil, no longer the same Durkon" effect is hardly known at all (only one on-screen cleric has made the skill check). Celia may have still have issues with this fight.

Actually, I think it is known, but not proven, but not proven, and Roy being who he is thought it was just a stupid prejudice.
The anger and disgust other people show when they see vampires make me think that to the majority of people "vampire = bad, evil and should be killed". Roy is not the majority of people, though, and often is/wants to be smarter than others.

[Roland Itiative]

The thought of Roy summoning Celia like a Final Fantasy character somehow made me laugh. Maybe he didn't do that because the attack cutscene is too long.

[Bulldog Psion]

On a side note, it feels a bit weird that Celia didn't give Roy another pendant.
I mean, he's clearly her boyfriend. Sure, she can see him if she wants to, but he can not.

What if he has sudden urges? Sounds like a pretty one-sided relationship to me... "don't call me, I'll call you!". :smallbiggrin:

Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

"Okay, well, good luck on your lethal quest, and if I ever feel like it, I might contact you again at some indeterminate point in the future." Sounds like attachment = zero; not even much curiosity about what's going on, in fact. :smalleek:

[8BitNinja]

Celia never was really important, she's kind of just a love interest for Roy

after all, the hero marries the girl in the end, even in real life, I know this because I watch movies and they say so :smallbiggrin:

[Vinyadan]

I have the distinct feeling that she would get trounched.

[goodpeople25]

The thought of Roy summoning Celia like a Final Fantasy character somehow made me laugh. Maybe he didn't do that because the attack cutscene is too long.
Ha too true, well for the later games anyway. Most of the III-V (maybe VI but that one I never really summoned anything and I don't remember it much anyway) summons seem to fit within 6 seconds, the Sylph summon for one. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

"Okay, well, good luck on your lethal quest, and if I ever feel like it, I might contact you again at some indeterminate point in the future." Sounds like attachment = zero; not even much curiosity about what's going on, in fact. :smalleek:
What was she supposed to say? "I demand you immediately break off your quest--even knowing that will result in you and any children we might have never getting into Celestia and probably result in the world being destroyed or ground under Xykon's heel--and retire from adventuring, because I can't be involved with a man who has a dangerous job"? Or, "Even though I'm a low-level sorcerer who will have a nasty level adjustment if she starts gaining class levels as an adventurer, an ideological pacifist, someone who can't be resurrected if I die, and because of the mechanics of the world we live in the existing six members of the Order of the Stick will all gain levels slower if I join and the membership number goes to seven, I'll drop out of law school to come with you on this quest"?

[littlebum2002]

Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

"Okay, well, good luck on your lethal quest, and if I ever feel like it, I might contact you again at some indeterminate point in the future." Sounds like attachment = zero; not even much curiosity about what's going on, in fact. :smalleek:

They're in a long-distance no-communication relationship.

[Peelee]

What was she supposed to say? "I demand you immediately break off your quest--even knowing that will result in you and any children we might have never getting into Celestia and probably result in the world being destroyed or ground under Xykon's heel--and retire from adventuring, because I can't be involved with a man who has a dangerous job"? Or, "Even though I'm a low-level sorcerer who will have a nasty level adjustment if she starts gaining class levels as an adventurer, an ideological pacifist, someone who can't be resurrected if I die, and because of the mechanics of the world we live in the existing six members of the Order of the Stick will all gain levels slower if I join and the membership number goes to seven, I'll drop out of law school to come with you on this quest"?

Extremes aren't the only possibilities, ya know. Some sort of Calling every so often is more in-line with the observation, i think. Of course, that would at the very least likely detract from the pacing here.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We don't know that. He could be having Durkon or V using spells off panel.

Actually, I can't remember. Is sending interplanar or intraplanar?

[Jasdoif]

Actually, I can't remember. Is sending interplanar or intraplanar?There's a 5% chance of the sending not arriving if it has to go across planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).

[Kish]

Extremes aren't the only possibilities, ya know. Some sort of Calling every so often is more in-line with the observation, i think. Of course, that would at the very least likely detract from the pacing here.
It's been how long since they parted company? I'd personally say less than two weeks, but definitely at the most, six weeks and six days, since Belkar's prophecy hasn't expired yet. A bit early to be saying it's weird that Celia hasn't contacted Roy recently. (Even assuming she hasn't, off-panel. Though I think she probably hasn't and won't due to the unacceptable risk of distracting him at a key moment in a battle; there's only one Gate left now and it's unlikely there's going to be another multiple-months timeskip between their parting company and Xykon meeting his end. I'm just saying, I don't see any angle at which to hold the "Celia and Roy's relationship is lacking in affection" idea that it doesn't look very strange indeed to me.)

[goodpeople25]

There's a 5% chance of the sending not arriving if it has to go across planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).
Though it does state the possibility of local conditions in that plane raising the failure chance significantly. So it's possible by the rules that Celia spends most of her time in places with the equivalent of bad Cell service.

[littlebum2002]

Extremes aren't the only possibilities, ya know. Some sort of Calling every so often is more in-line with the observation, i think. Of course, that would at the very least likely detract from the pacing here.


It's been how long since they parted company? I'd personally say less than two weeks, but definitely at the most, six weeks and six days, since Belkar's prophecy hasn't expired yet. A bit early to be saying it's weird that Celia hasn't contacted Roy recently. (Even assuming she hasn't, off-panel. Though I think she probably hasn't and won't due to the unacceptable risk of distracting him at a key moment in a battle; there's only one Gate left now and it's unlikely there's going to be another multiple-months timeskip between their parting company and Xykon meeting his end. I'm just saying, I don't see any angle at which to hold the "Celia and Roy's relationship is lacking in affection" idea that it doesn't look very strange indeed to me.)

I agree that "Roy sees Celia every now and then" would be much more plausible to the plot and not that hard to stick in. Roy wakes up one morning, dismisses Celia, goes about his business as usual. 2 panels wasted. Roy has some spare time when travelling, has Durkon cast a quick Sending to Celia to say hi, waste of 2 panels.

Another, perhaps more plausible scenario, is that it was a "booty talisman" but Celia just didn't want to admit it (who want's to admit they're a booty call?). I mean, remember Roy did correct his "mutual love" comment with "mutual lust".

[Peelee]

It's been how long since they parted company? I'd personally say less than two weeks, but definitely at the most, six weeks and six days, since Belkar's prophecy hasn't expired yet. A bit early to be saying it's weird that Celia hasn't contacted Roy recently. (Even assuming she hasn't, off-panel. Though I think she probably hasn't and won't due to the unacceptable risk of distracting him at a key moment in a battle; there's only one Gate left now and it's unlikely there's going to be another multiple-months timeskip between their parting company and Xykon meeting his end. I'm just saying, I don't see any angle at which to hold the "Celia and Roy's relationship is lacking in affection" idea that it doesn't look very strange indeed to me.)

I agree that "Roy sees Celia every now and then" would be much more plausible to the plot and not that hard to stick in. Roy wakes up one morning, dismisses Celia, goes about his business as usual. 2 panels wasted. Roy has some spare time when travelling, has Durkon cast a quick Sending to Celia to say hi, waste of 2 panels.

Another, perhaps more plausible scenario, is that it was a "booty talisman" but Celia just didn't want to admit it (who want's to admit they're a booty call?). I mean, remember Roy did correct his "mutual love" comment with "mutual lust".
I was under the impression that the issue under consideration was not "Celia is not contacting him enough," but rather, "Celia is capable of going to see or contacting Roy easily, while Roy is not capable of going to see or contacting Celia easily." I also assume that using V or Durkon is not "easily," since Roy might bristle about needing a chaperone. That's only an assumption, of course.

[Talion]

The most I could see from Celia spontaneously arriving at the moot would involve the use of her legal training and negotiation skills. She is fairly good at figuring out loopholes and fast talking perspective enemies. However, that doesn't have much weight behind it because:

1. We're not sure how far along her actual education is, and the last time she was in court the trial's outcome was determined long before the trial itself occurred.
2. The last time she negotiated anything she did so without her client's knowledge or approval (Haley vs the Thieves Guild).
3. Said negotiation didn't last more than a week.
4. If there was some loophole that could be exploited, someone likely would have called it out by now. As we've seen so far, Hel has, almost exclusively, been the only one playing the loophole game.
5. Even if she figured out a loophole, she alone doesn't have a means to enforce that loophole in a meaningful way.
6. As of the last comic (1018) any chance at negotiation seems to have gone completely out the window.

Theoretically, she could instead potentially try to intervene at the Dwarf King's counsel meeting, but that's almost as shaky as what Durkula is up to.

[Deliverance]

Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

"Okay, well, good luck on your lethal quest, and if I ever feel like it, I might contact you again at some indeterminate point in the future." Sounds like attachment = zero; not even much curiosity about what's going on, in fact. :smalleek:
This is a world without world wide telephone networks or widely available mobile phones. People act differently.

Heck, even if there was a world wide telephone network, the elemental plane of air probably qualifies as a long distance call. :smalltongue:

Historically speaking, going for months and in extreme cases years without knowledge of the fate of your loved ones has been the destiny of everybody who traveled far and those they left behind. Rather than "content to", you should perhaps consider "resigned to".

Viewed through this prism Celia has sent her man off to war and is now concentrating on the home front, studying law rather than spending her time flipping burgers to pay for sending spells.:smallbiggrin:

[Zwiebelchen]

Roy is bald, I think you need hair for that balloon trick to work.
I think that balloon trick works regardless if you have some stubbles. And at least baldness makes it look bigger.


They're in a long-distance no-communication relationship.
Then again, she has wings. Probably worth it.


There's a 5% chance of the sending not arriving if it has to go across planes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm).
God I love the pointless and completely arbitrary fumble rules of the D20 system.

What happens when you role a natural 20 on sending? Will it add a picture?

[Vinyadan]

What happens when you role a natural 20 on sending? Will it add a picture?

If I were a DM, I would add smells :smallbiggrin:

[Zwiebelchen]

If I were a DM, I would add smells :smallbiggrin:
"My Lord, we received message from general Bloodkill on the eastern front. Everything is going as planned. Also, a cat GIF. Awww!"

[Amphiox]

Ha too true, well for the later games anyway. Most of the III-V (maybe VI but that one I never really summoned anything and I don't remember it much anyway) summons seem to fit within 6 seconds, the Sylph summon for one. :smallbiggrin:

IIRC, the Sylph summon is a healing one, and backfires against undead....

Seriously though, asking Celia to fight Durkula is simply going get you one perma-dead outsider, and not something a character Roy would likely even think about doing to a loved one.

[goodpeople25]

IIRC, the Sylph summon is a healing one, and backfires against undead....

actually Sylph doesn't backfire in IV, will assume for now that FF IV the after-years is the same will check for sure later, but i'm willing to bet it's the same as IV.
V i would have checked already but the undead dragon (seriously it is a reskin of the monster Zombie dragon) i knew was on my floor isn't actually undead so that test was useless. Will edit in a bit once i find something that's actually undead.
But really the point was me commenting on a post about length of final fantasy summon animations.
Edit: been a bit. This one is definitely undead took damage from cura, zombie is in the name, the works. And sylph did damage and healed me. So yeah i don't think Slyph counts as a drain effect rather non elemental/wind damage that just happens to heal the entire party according to the damage it did. Thus undead safe.
This is the mobile version.

[8BitNinja]

How much Charisma to you need to seduce an astral creature?

[littlebum2002]

This is a world without world wide telephone networks or widely available mobile phones. People act differently.

Heck, even if there was a world wide telephone network, the elemental plane of air probably qualifies as a long distance call. :smalltongue:

Historically speaking, going for months and in extreme cases years without knowledge of the fate of your loved ones has been the destiny of everybody who traveled far and those they left behind. Rather than "content to", you should perhaps consider "resigned to".

Viewed through this prism Celia has sent her man off to war and is now concentrating on the home front, studying law rather than spending her time flipping burgers to pay for sending spells.:smallbiggrin:

All this would be true if there weren't any magic in the world. The fact that Celia can pop in and see Roy any time she wants makes this whole argument pretty moo.

[goodpeople25]

All this would be true if there weren't any magic in the world. The fact that Celia can pop in and see Roy any time she wants makes this whole argument pretty moo.
What? Since when? Could you Explain:smallconfused:

[DaggerPen]

True, Celia could enter the Antilife Shell and, once inside... play pattycake with Durkon or something?

Negotiate some rules for this thing that don't leave more holes than a block of Swiss cheese? :p

[Deliverance]

All this would be true if there weren't any magic in the world. The fact that Celia can pop in and see Roy any time she wants makes this whole argument pretty moo.
When, exactly, did the inexplicably medium-sized Sylph Celia acquire the magic to move from wherever she was located (on the prime material plane or the elemental plane of air) to wherever Roy was located at any time she wanted?

What we do know is Celia's own words upon hearing of Roy's death in #530 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), "Roy and I already had a long distance relationship. All we ever needed was one spell to bring us together. The only difference is, now the spell we need is Resurrection instead of Plane Shift. Not so bad when you think of that way, y'know. (snif)"

Heck, even if Celia somehow was able to Plane Shift at will (something that is not common to Sylphs in D&D but, hey, story) or had enough levels to cast 7th level sorcerer spells (she casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD; the most we've seen her use until now is Lightning Bolt, which means she has at least 6HD, but while possible it seems unlikely that the young lawyer-in-training has the 14HD needed to cast 7th level spells), she would still need to target a location and the spell would her within 5d100% miles distance of that location, from which she'd have to fly to Roy (somehow divining his location, either by asking around or, possibly, scrying, in the case of a Celia is 8HD+).

[An Enemy Spy]

Even if Roy could, what good would summoning Celia do anyway? Durkula and Gontor would take her out in three rounds at the very most, and nothing would have been solved.

[Sith_Happens]

Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

"Okay, well, good luck on your lethal quest, and if I ever feel like it, I might contact you again at some indeterminate point in the future." Sounds like attachment = zero; not even much curiosity about what's going on, in fact. :smalleek:

Reminder that Celia is immortal. What's a few years between dates when you can reasonably expect to reach your 1000th birthday?

(Before anyone comments that Roy might think differently, what makes you think Celia would know that?:smalltongue:)

[Peelee]

(Before anyone comments that Roy might think differently, what makes you think Celia would know that?:smalltongue:)

The fact that she knew that Roy could be rezzed, which is a property she does not possess, thus demonstrating at least a passing understanding of the differences in mortality. Nice try, my Revany friend.

[Darth Paul]

How much Charisma to you need to seduce an astral creature?

Since we have to ask that question, we don't have enough.

[8BitNinja]

Assuming she is a Nymph Fey, which I am guessing, Roy needs at LEAST 20 charisma

[Kish]

What edition are you talking about now? Pretty sure it's not 3.5.

[Zwiebelchen]

Assuming she is a Nymph Fey, which I am guessing, Roy needs at LEAST 20 charisma
She's a Sylph. A nymph is a nature/tree spirit and has nothing to do with the plane of air. They are similar to some extend, but are not the same creature by core rules.

[BaronOfHell]

If I was Roy I'd definitely also summon my fragile, no afterlife, important girlfriend from her alternate plane sanctuary far away from the dangers of the snarl, to throw her at a high level extremely dangerous vampire cleric I almost lost against. What could go wrong?

[Esprit15]

As a note, after New Years, they planned to meet back up during her winter break. That implies that they planned to be apart for 6 months, assuming their calendar structure is similar to ours and that New Years occurs during the summer.

[8BitNinja]

She's a Sylph. A nymph is a nature/tree spirit and has nothing to do with the plane of air. They are similar to some extend, but are not the same creature by core rules.

on the 3.5e SRD wiki, it has no 3.5e Sylph stats, so I just went off of everything else, such as the elf-like appearance and a similar alignment, (Nymphs are CG while Celia is LG)

I could always go off of 4e

[Kish]

This? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm) It doesn't list a Charisma requirement to have a romance with one.

[goodpeople25]

This? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nymph.htm) It doesn't list a Charisma requirement to have a romance with one.
Well it kinda does, if you use the thinking that to seduce (the original comment) someone you need to have a higher charisma than them. Not saying that is right, but that appears to be the logic.

[Peelee]

Well it kinda does, if you use the thinking that to seduce (the original comment) someone you need to have a higher charisma than them. Not saying that is right, but that appears to be the logic.

That's like saying that in order to win a fight with a monster, you must have higher strength than them. You may think that, but that doesn't mean that the rules kinda state that by listing a strength score in the Monster Manual.

[goodpeople25]

That's like saying that in order to win a fight with a monster, you must have higher strength than them. You may think that, but that doesn't mean that the rules kinda state that by listing a strength score in the Monster Manual.
Well yeah i personally don't agree with it in the slightest. I was saying that appears to be the logic behind it. What with the stated charisma being exactly 1 above the nymph's.
And it does state the charisma score there, what someone takes from that is thier business (to a point of course)

[Veya]

I would also like to point out one detail: Celia is an Outsider, she can't be resurrected if she dies, maybe even if Roy could summon her at will, he'd avoid to summon her in a fight because he is afraid of what could happen, short of Soul Binding, he can always get a Raise Dead or, if we are feeling fancy, Resurrection, she can't.

I know we are talking about the literal end of the world here, but I still feel he would avoid summoning her even in this situation, always a voice in the back of the head saying he can solve this himself, that he doesn't have to put her into risk.

[littlebum2002]

What? Since when? Could you Explain:smallconfused:

In our world, before we had planes/trains/ships and whatnot, travelling halfway around the world was practically an impossibility, and attempting to do so was definitely putting your life at risk. In the OOTS-world, a simple spell will send you almost anywhere you want to go in a matter of seconds. Not even close to an accurate comparison.



When, exactly, did the inexplicably medium-sized Sylph Celia acquire the magic to move from wherever she was located (on the prime material plane or the elemental plane of air) to wherever Roy was located at any time she wanted?

Have you forgotten this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html)? It seems like it's pretty simple for her to create these non-booty-talismans. Why can't she just give Roy a half dozen or so of them when she visits the material plane?

[The_Weirdo]

You're all missing the point. The true usefulness of Celia isn't fighting Durkon and she could be insanely useful right about now!

She's a LAWYER.

"Hey, I don't make the rules, I just twist them to my purpose.", remember?

She doesn't NEED to fight. She just needs to find a loophole in the rules of the godsmoot! And for THAT she's the single most skilled person we've seen until now in this story!

[Yuki Akuma]

In our world, before we had planes/trains/ships and whatnot, travelling halfway around the world was practacally an impossibility, and attempting to do so was definitely putting your life at risk. In the OOTS-world, a simple spell will send you almost anywhere you want to go in a matter of seconds. Not even close to an accurate comparison.

That 'simple spell' is is a 5th level spell requiring at least 11 levels in Wizard, 12 levels in Sorcerer, or being an 11th level Cleric with the Travel domain. And that's the riskiest 'be anywhere on this plane' spell to cast - if you want to avoid risk you need better spells.

Most people are not these things. Nor are most people rich enough to afford even a scroll of teleport.

[littlebum2002]

That 'simple spell' is is a 5th level spell requiring at least 11 levels in Wizard, 12 levels in Sorcerer, or being an 11th level Cleric with the Travel domain. And that's the riskiest 'be anywhere on this plane' spell to cast - if you want to avoid risk you need better spells.

Most people are not these things. Nor are most people rich enough to afford even a scroll of teleport.

Celia seemed to have no problem creating/acquiring a talisman to summon her. She didn't act like it cost her a years salary, which it certainly would have if this were D&D. She also managed to get back to her own plane, by herself, immediately afterwards. (although it is possible she just went to whoever summoned her in the first place and asked them to dismiss her)

So there's obviously some rule in this world that we don't know about that makes it relatively easy for her to travel between planes.

[snowblizz]

Celia seemed to have no problem creating/acquiring a talisman to summon her. She didn't act like it cost her a years salary, which it certainly would have if this were D&D. She also managed to get back to her own plane, by herself, immediately afterwards. (although it is possible she just went to whoever summoned her in the first place and asked them to dismiss her)
Celia is dismissed by Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

[littlebum2002]

Celia is dismissed by Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

Sorry, I meant the second time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0320.html) she left. She was summoned to this plane by Azure City's magic users, so perhaps she required them to dismiss her, similar to how Haley did?

On that note, remember the first time she was on the material plane was here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html). That time, when she left the dungeon, she went to the nearest town to put the Linear Guild in jail and then go back to her home plane. Since the man who summoned her to this plane was dead, she must have found another way home.

And, again, unless she forked over a year's salary for a cleric/wizard to Plane Shift her over there, there must be an easy way to do it in the OOTS-verse, prompting the question of why she doesn't use this method to see Roy more often.


EDIT: Is there a rules-accurate way for Sabine to have a Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)power? According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm), that is not a power succubi usually have. Perhaps in the OOTS-verse denizens of other planes automatically have the power to go back and forth to the material plane?

[hroþila]

Why did Goku say goodbye to his family and abandon it for Dende knows how many years at a time, when he could teleport at will? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Zwiebelchen]

on the 3.5e SRD wiki, it has no 3.5e Sylph stats, so I just went off of everything else, such as the elf-like appearance and a similar alignment, (Nymphs are CG while Celia is LG)

I could always go off of 4e
Well, Sylphs have been there from first edition on and are even inside the original monster manual from 1977: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
So it certainly can't get more "core" then that.

Dunno why the Sylph entry is missing on the 3.5e SRD wiki. Maybe it's just incomplete here.


Why did Goku say goodbye to his family and abandon it for Dende knows how many years at a time, when he could teleport at will? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because he only visits Chichi to knock her up. Like a true alpha male. I thought that was obvious? ;)

[littlebum2002]

Well, Sylphs have been there from first edition on and are even inside the original monster manual from 1977: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
So it certainly can't get more "core" then that.

Dunno why the Sylph entry is missing on the 3.5e SRD wiki. Maybe it's just incomplete here.


Because he only visits Chichi to knock her up. Like a true alpha male. I thought that was obvious? ;)

Literally on that exact same Wikipedia article you cited it says that Sylphs were in the Monster Manual II for the 3.0 edition, which is not core and not in the SRD.

(Also, the SRD is similar to, but not equal to, core. They left some core copyrighted material out of the SRD, like Mind Flayers and Beholders. That's why they the butt of the Open Content joke early on in the comic.)

[Zwiebelchen]

They left some core copyrighted material out of the SRD, like Mind Flayers and Beholders. That's why they the butt of the Open Content joke early on in the comic.)
Ahh, I guess that explains it. Makes me wonder why Nymphs are in there, though.

[Gryndel]

That 'simple spell' is is a 5th level spell requiring at least 11 levels in Wizard, 12 levels in Sorcerer, or being an 11th level Cleric with the Travel domain. And that's the riskiest 'be anywhere on this plane' spell to cast - if you want to avoid risk you need better spells.

Most people are not these things. Nor are most people rich enough to afford even a scroll of teleport.

In 3.5e that would require at least 9 levels in wizard, 10 levels in sorcerer, or being a 9th level Cleric with the Travel domain. Still beyond the level of most people, which was the main point.

[Sith_Happens]

The fact that she knew that Roy could be rezzed, which is a property she does not possess, thus demonstrating at least a passing understanding of the differences in mortality. Nice try, my Revany friend.

Key word "passing." Just because she knows that Roy is mortal doesn't necessarily mean she's extrapolated that to the idea that he might have different standards for how long is too long.:smalltongue:

[BaronOfHell]

She doesn't NEED to fight. She just needs to find a loophole in the rules of the godsmoot! And for THAT she's the single most skilled person we've seen until now in this story!

Brilliant! :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Ahh, I guess that explains it. Makes me wonder why Nymphs are in there, though.
Nymphs are much older than D&D; D&D just gave them specific stats for their appearance in it. "Squid-faced psionic brain-eater" is actually something made up for D&D, and so is "sphere of floating eyes of which each produces a different magical ability."

[Zwiebelchen]

Nymphs are much older than D&D; D&D just gave them specific stats for their appearance in it. "Squid-faced psionic brain-eater" is actually something made up for D&D, and so is "sphere of floating eyes of which each produces a different magical ability."
Then again, D&D didn't make up Sylphs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph) either...
So why would a Sylph be a licenced creature, but Nymphs would not?

[Jasdoif]

Then again, D&D didn't make up Sylphs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph) either...
So why would a Sylph be a licenced creature, but Nymphs would not?Nymphs were in the first monster manual for the edition, Sylphs were not. Wizards of the Coast didn't include all the creatures in Monster Manual II in the SRD, presumably because they wanted to sell the book to people who already had the SRD or core books, presumably because that's why Wizards of the Coast put together the SRD in the first place.

I don't think licensing factors into it at all.

[8BitNinja]

Even though Roy doesn't mention Celia that much, he doesn't have to in order to remember her

... still, he has at least 20 Charisma, I wonder what Elan's, Haley's, or even Mr. Greenhilt's is

[Kish]

Request: Please no one else try to explain what 8BitNinja is saying this time. I'm asking 8BitNinja.

What is the line of reasoning that leads you to conclude that Roy has at least 20 Charisma?

(I'm guessing "Mr. Greenhilt" is Eugene.)

[8BitNinja]

Request: Please no one else try to explain what 8BitNinja is saying this time. I'm asking 8BitNinja.

What is the line of reasoning that leads you to conclude that Roy has at least 20 Charisma?

(I'm guessing "Mr. Greenhilt" is Eugene.)

Yes Mr. Greenhilt is Eugene, I forgot his name when I was typing

If my hypothesis is correct, in order for him to have seduced Celia, which it seems he has, he would've needed an equal or greater charisma to do so, therefore, if Celia was 1st level, she would, by D&D rules, have 20 Charisma, therefore Roy would have at least 20 Charisma in order to have romanced her

The next question about the other people and their charisma is simple, A Bard and Illusionist directly uses Charisma for their spells, and a Rogue, from what little of rogues I have seen,also need decent charisma. Roy is a fighter and does not need charisma, yet he has a 20

[Kish]

One, that's not a hypothesis, it's just a weird idea you're making up.

Two, who approached whom? Why, Celia approached Roy, didn't she? So even if this weird-ass rule you made up had anything to do with the comic, that would support Celia having higher* Charisma than Roy, not the other way around. (Assuming that by "seduce" you mean the one who makes the approach needs to have higher Charisma for a merely weird imagined rule, not that each must have higher Charisma than the other for every relationship being logically impossible.)

Three, Celia isn't a SRD nymph. In any way.

(Illusionists also don't use Charisma for their spells, just incidentally, not that it makes any sense to get to where you are when you're speculating about Eugene's charisma.)

*I noticed that you just said "equal or greater," but that doesn't even follow from the SRD nymph and your rule, since you're claiming Roy has a minimum of 20 and the nymph has 19.

[goodpeople25]

Okay so i was right in 8BitNinja's reasoning for Roy having at least 20 Cha.
Not that it makes anymore sense as to why.

[littlebum2002]

Then again, D&D didn't make up Sylphs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylph) either...
So why would a Sylph be a licenced creature, but Nymphs would not?


Nymphs were in the first monster manual for the edition, Sylphs were not. Wizards of the Coast didn't include all the creatures in Monster Manual II in the SRD, presumably because they wanted to sell the book to people who already had the SRD or core books, presumably because that's why Wizards of the Coast put together the SRD in the first place.

I don't think licensing factors into it at all.

This is correct. The only books that are included in the SRD are:

Dungeon Master's Guide
Players Handbook
Monster Manual I
Psionics Handbook
Epic Level Handbook
EDIT: And one chapter from Deities and Demigods, apparently

However, the entire text of these books is not in the SRD, just selected parts. So, to sum it up:

Everything in the SRD is in these 5 6 books, but not everything in these 5 6 books is in the SRD.

A Nymph was not made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual I, and is in the SRD.
A Slyph was not made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual II, therefore it is by default not in the SRD.
A Mind Flayer was made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual I, but is still not in the SRD.

[Jasdoif]

This is correct. The only books that are included in the SRD are:

Dungeon Master's Guide
Players Handbook
Monster Manual I
Psionics Handbook
Epic Level HandbookAnd one chapter from Deities and Demigods.

[littlebum2002]

And one chapter from Deities and Demigods.

This stuff? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm)

[Jasdoif]

This stuff? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm)That as well as the rest of the divine rules (this (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm), this (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineMinionsDomainsSpells.htm)), yes. The book's background-y "how to envision/design a pantheon for play" stuff, and the four detailed pantheons, aren't in the SRD.

[Zwiebelchen]

This is correct. The only books that are included in the SRD are:

Dungeon Master's Guide
Players Handbook
Monster Manual I
Psionics Handbook
Epic Level Handbook
EDIT: And one chapter from Deities and Demigods, apparently

However, the entire text of these books is not in the SRD, just selected parts. So, to sum it up:

Everything in the SRD is in these 5 6 books, but not everything in these 5 6 books is in the SRD.

A Nymph was not made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual I, and is in the SRD.
A Slyph was not made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual II, therefore it is by default not in the SRD.
A Mind Flayer was made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual I, but is still not in the SRD.
Thanks for the clarification.
This SRD discussion went much longer than it had any right to be, tbh, since the original issue was just that Sylphs are not Nymphs and that the SRD is not complete. Which is still true even after we know the details of why or why not. ;)


If my hypothesis is correct, in order for him to have seduced Celia, which it seems he has, he would've needed an equal or greater charisma to do so, therefore, if Celia was 1st level, she would, by D&D rules, have 20 Charisma, therefore Roy would have at least 20 Charisma in order to have romanced her
This is completely nonsense.
Not everything requires a seduction check. Especially not a mutual relationship (in case of Roy and Celia). Just like you don't roll a diplomacy check every time you are bantering with your party members.
by your logic, Nale would need *27* charisma to date a succubus (cha 26).

[Dracon1us]

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png "It is NOT a booty talisman."

muhahahahahhahahaha

[KorvinStarmast]

A Mind Flayer was made up by WotC, and it is in Monster Manual I, but is still not in the SRD.
No, the Mind Flayer wasn't made up by WoTC. It was made up at TSR by Gary Gygax (published first in the Strategic Review #1 and later in and OD&D supplement 3, Eldritch Wizardry) and then it (along with the Beholder, Owlbear, and some other unique critters like the Umber Hulk) was acquired as intellectual property by WoTC when WoTC bought out TSR.

[littlebum2002]

No, the Mind Flayer wasn't made up by WoTC. It was made up at TSR by Gary Gygax (published first in the Strategic Review #1 and later in and OD&D supplement 3, Eldritch Wizardry) and then it (along with the Beholder, Owlbear, and some other unique critters like the Umber Hulk) was acquired as intellectual property by WoTC when WoTC bought out TSR.

I am aware WotC bought their intellectual property, but I was trying to simplify the discussion a bit. Thanks for the exposition though, that is more information about the Mind Flayer than I thought I would ever know!

Needless to say, regardless of the apparent "seduction" rules that I'm not sure I remember reading about anywhere, we have all learned a bit about D&D from this post. Hooray!

[8BitNinja]

You know what, I'm just going to drop my argument on Roy's Charisma, that's for a different thread

[Kish]

It'll be just as weird and arbitrary in any thread, you know.

[Peelee]

I'd actually like for you to make a thread about it, if only so i could see how you came to the conclusion that seduction requires comparable charisma checks.

[SaintRidley]

Celia probably got home after the dungeon of Dorukan by paying for a sending and contacting a friend of the family's (or a family member) who could Plane Shift and get her. Seems more achievable in terms of cost for her than paying for a Plane Shift, though that is equally possible.


It'll be just as weird and arbitrary in any thread, you know.

Don't forget unfounded, too.

[Sith_Happens]

Celia probably got home after the dungeon of Dorukan by paying for a sending and contacting a friend of the family's (or a family member) who could Plane Shift and get her. Seems more achievable in terms of cost for her than paying for a Plane Shift, though that is equally possible.

She could also have gotten there in the first place via a Calling spell, all of which come with a built-in return trip:


A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible.

[littlebum2002]

I'd actually like for you to make a thread about it, if only so i could see how you came to the conclusion that seduction requires comparable charisma checks.

And, moreso, that the person who was seduced is required to have a higher charisma than the seducer.

[wumpus]

A quick check of the latest OOTS geekery thread lists Roy's charisma as 12+ (but int 14-17 and wis 14+). Since Roy is the leader* I'd expect him to have the charisma slightly higher than int and wis (although his stats are so out of whack for an optimized fighter to be useless for such figuring). Was Miko ever interested in Roy (or did she always think he was evil)? Rich might like to keep like alignments together, but it would take a pretty high charisma to pull her eyes off of Elan (although it can't be hard to see his chaos).

*and typically acts as the face. I'd expect him to allow Halley to do so but not Elan. For some reason I thought Halley has a higher charisma than Roy, but that might just be the early jokes with her doing the cat burglar cheesecake bit.

[SaintRidley]

She could also have gotten there in the first place via a Calling spell, all of which come with a built-in return trip:

Had forgotten about that. That's most likely it, then.

[Jasdoif]

I'd actually like for you to make a thread about it, if only so i could see how you came to the conclusion that seduction requires comparable charisma checks.Indeed....The only WotC-sourced seduction-related mechanic I know of (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) uses flat DCs and needs four levels of swashbuckler. Which could certainly be a fit for Julio, much more of a stretch for Roy.

[Emperordaniel]

Indeed....The only WotC-sourced seduction-related mechanic I know of (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) uses flat DCs and needs four levels of swashbuckler. Which could certainly be a fit for Julio, much more of a stretch for Roy.

There's a footnote there which basically says that if the DM wants to make the "seduce to learn secret" action available to all characters, then the swashbuckler can do it twice as fast - so there's precedent for giving that ability to non-swashbuckers as well.

[Kish]

A swashbuckler gains an additional use of the Bluff skill called seduce to learn secret. The swashbuckler can use charm, flirtation, or seduction to learn a coveted secret that is known by a nonplayer character. In order for this iteration of the Bluff skill to work, the nonplayer character must find the swashbuckler physically attractive and be in a position to actually know the secret in question. There are five kinds of secrets that can be learned with a seduce to learn secret check . The fewer people that know a secret, the greater their loyalty to keep that secret.
Reasonably certain any secret Roy would have learned by seducing Celia would be, uhm, not something that could be stated on this board. (Setting aside the fact that, again, Celia was the aggressor and those rules really don't translate to "need higher Charisma to start a long-term sexual relationship.") So yeah.

[Mx56]

A quick check of the latest OOTS geekery thread lists Roy's charisma as 12+ (but int 14-17 and wis 14+). Since Roy is the leader* I'd expect him to have the charisma slightly higher than int and wis (although his stats are so out of whack for an optimized fighter to be useless for such figuring). Was Miko ever interested in Roy (or did she always think he was evil)? Rich might like to keep like alignments together, but it would take a pretty high charisma to pull her eyes off of Elan (although it can't be hard to see his chaos).
There's more to attraction between two people than charisma. There's also things like personal preferences, qualities that might be attractive to one person (like being relaxed in social situations and having an impressive personal presence) might be off putting for others (seen as glibness and ego from another point of view, for instance). A character with high charisma makes a strong impression on others and has good people skills, it doesn't follow that they are necessarily sexually attractive to every single NPC they encounter. It doesn't even mean that they're necessarily a very pleasant person to be around, as a paladin, it's likely that Miko had pretty high charisma and with the exception of Roy, most characters of both genders seemed to dislike her pretty intensely.

From a mechanical point of view, core 3.5e D&D has no official rules on seduction in general (which I think is a point in D&D's favour, gamifying social interactions makes my teeth grind like they can't get past a mini boss) and nothing in RAW says that NPCs have to take a liking or disliking to a PC purely based on their charisma.

[wumpus]

There's more to attraction between two people than charisma. There's also things like personal preferences, qualities that might be attractive to one person (like being relaxed in social situations and having an impressive personal presence) might be off putting for others (seen as glibness and ego from another point of view, for instance). A character with high charisma makes a strong impression on others and has good people skills, it doesn't follow that they are necessarily sexually attractive to every single NPC they encounter. It doesn't even mean that they're necessarily a very pleasant person to be around, as a paladin, it's likely that Miko had pretty high charisma and with the exception of Roy, most characters of both genders seemed to dislike her pretty intensely.

From a mechanical point of view, core 3.5e D&D has no official rules on seduction in general (which I think is a point in D&D's favour, gamifying social interactions makes my teeth grind like they can't get past a mini boss) and nothing in RAW says that NPCs have to take a liking or disliking to a PC purely based on their charisma.

[grognard mode]
What happened to hireling loyalty bonuses. Wait, what happened to hirelings altogether?
[/grognard mode]
I'd say that social skills bonuses require NPCs to favor those with high charisma (but only by a few percent for natural charisma. Fully pumped up bards/sorcerers/etc. might be another story). Older descriptions of charisma worked that way.

[8BitNinja]

There's more to attraction between two people than charisma. There's also things like personal preferences, qualities that might be attractive to one person (like being relaxed in social situations and having an impressive personal presence) might be off putting for others (seen as glibness and ego from another point of view, for instance). A character with high charisma makes a strong impression on others and has good people skills, it doesn't follow that they are necessarily sexually attractive to every single NPC they encounter. It doesn't even mean that they're necessarily a very pleasant person to be around, as a paladin, it's likely that Miko had pretty high charisma and with the exception of Roy, most characters of both genders seemed to dislike her pretty intensely.

From a mechanical point of view, core 3.5e D&D has no official rules on seduction in general (which I think is a point in D&D's favour, gamifying social interactions makes my teeth grind like they can't get past a mini boss) and nothing in RAW says that NPCs have to take a liking or disliking to a PC purely based on their charisma.

It was stated that Roy has about a 12 CHA

In AD&D at least (not sure if it applies now) paladins had to have a 17 CHA

After all, when the damsel in distress is in the evil wizard's castle guarded by a dragon, the fact that a guy just came in, killed all the bad guys, and broke you out is not good enough to trust them. Your armor needs to be as gleamy as your white teeth which you brush thrice a day. You also need not only amazing looks but a good reason to convince her to not stay here and die horribly.

Because we all know that everyone just loves to be a prisoner in the evil wizard's castle

I'm not going to highlight any of that in blue, just know it was sarcasm

[Kish]

No basic class has minimum stat requirements in 3.x. I think your sarcasm may have the reason why paladins had to have 17 Charisma a tidge off, but it doesn't matter anymore. (Er...and Roy isn't a paladin, so why would you bring up paladins anyway?)

Since you're back in this thread and back to posting on the subject of Roy's Charisma here but not addressing your prior assertions, I take it you've withdrawn the claim that he has to have 20 to "seduce" Celia; a precise declaration of 12 is equally unsupported but somewhat more likely.

[Deliverance]

It was stated that Roy has about a 12 CHA

The class and level geekery thread needs you - if you have a statement to back up what you claim was stated, that is.

Currently the consensus wisdom there is that Roy has 12+ CHA, if we really want to waste out time on statting out the story's characters, but with a wide possible range post-12.

Word of Giant: Roy has decent charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?5758-The-place-for-over-analysis/page7&p=211493#post211493).
Comic: Less than Elan as Elan has highest charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0101.html)

"Decent" isn't exactly an exact value - just about all we can be sure of is that it doesn't provide a penalty. And as for Elan having the highest charisma modifier, consensus wisdom is that that means he has to have a positive modifier (hence 12+) while some consider +0 to be a modifier too, and hence 10+. Given that Elan has to have something like 20 or 22 charisma, at least, for the purposes of his observed spellcasting, that leaves a wide range for Roy [10;19]

So if it was stated somewhere by the Giant that Roy has around 12 charisma, it would be kind of you to provide a link to this statement in the geekery thread.

[8BitNinja]

Er...and Roy isn't a paladin, so why would you bring up paladins anyway?

Miko was brought up, and she's a paladin

[8BitNinja]

Since you're back in this thread and back to posting on the subject of Roy's Charisma here but not addressing your prior assertions, I take it you've withdrawn the claim that he has to have 20 to "seduce" Celia; a precise declaration of 12 is equally unsupported but somewhat more likely.

I am no longer going to argue the 20 charisma because I don't care how it would have happened in the first place, so why bring it up?

It was just something dumb I wanted to bring up, besides, Mr. Burlew is not a lawful being, he does not stick to the rules

[Kish]

He especially doesn't follow the weird rules you make up.

I wonder what the "it" in "it would have happened" is.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am aware WotC bought their intellectual property, but I was trying to simplify the discussion a bit. Hmm, sorry for the somewhat heavy handed response. Concur that the charisma thing is a puzzle for another to resolve.

[littlebum2002]

I am no longer going to argue the 20 charisma because I don't care how it would have happened in the first place, so why bring it up?

It was just something dumb I wanted to bring up, besides, Mr. Burlew is not a lawful being, he does not stick to the rules

I'm totally on board with letting you have your house-ruled seduction-by-charisma rules, because it sounds like something a player in my games would get away with just because it's funny.

What I personally don't understand is where in the comic did you get the impression that Roy seduced Celia, rather than the other way around? It seems to me that he was perfectly OK with having a quiet dinner with the team until she basically told him he had other plans.


Hmm, sorry for the somewhat heavy handed response. Concur that the charisma thing is a puzzle for another to resolve.

No, learning something new is never a bad thing :smallsmile:

[8BitNinja]

I'm totally on board with letting you have your house-ruled seduction-by-charisma rules, because it sounds like something a player in my games would get away with just because it's funny.

What I personally don't understand is where in the comic did you get the impression that Roy seduced Celia, rather than the other way around? It seems to me that he was perfectly OK with having a quiet dinner with the team until she basically told him he had other plans.

I'm sorry, I am not as familiar with some subplots of the earlier comments, I don't have good memory (I don't have any disorders, I just have problems remembering small things)

But yes, after checking, it was entirely possible that Celia could've succeeded the check because of an Astral being's high charisma, Sylph Fey or not

[Peelee]

it was entirely possible that Celia could've succeeded the check because of an Astral being's high charisma, Sylph Fey or not

OK, look. There is no check. If you house rule that you need two opposing Charisma checks to seduce, that's fine. But that house rule is not in this comic. There is no check to seduce.

[8BitNinja]

OK, look. There is no check. If you house rule that you need two opposing Charisma checks to seduce, that's fine. But that house rule is not in this comic. There is no check to seduce.

That's strange, I was told that's how it works

I never really cared about seduction, so I never cared about trying to seduce anyone

I can't be a courtly lover when there is a whole pile of evil out there

[Peelee]

That's strange, I was told that's how it works

I never really cared about seduction, so I never cared about trying to seduce anyone

I can't be a courtly lover when there is a whole pile of evil out there

Aha! The source of the confusion appears!

No worries. Whoever told you that likely houseruled that in, just so ya know.

[8BitNinja]

Aha! The source of the confusion appears!

No worries. Whoever told you that likely houseruled that in, just so ya know.

Thank you my good sir

[littlebum2002]

Yes, it certainly makes more sense now.

[8BitNinja]

I am very sorry for derailing the conversation

[Pyrous]

I am very sorry for derailing the conversation

It would happen sooner or later.

While we are derailed, I'd like to point out that I'm not a dwarf anymore. That's one less soul to you Hel!

[littlebum2002]

I am very sorry for derailing the conversation

Oh no, please don't be. I always enjoy your comments, even if I don't always understand them

[8BitNinja]

Oh no, please don't be. I always enjoy your comments, even if I don't always understand them

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that's not an excuse to start off on how Celia's strength stat somehow can be used to determine that Xykon will later be revealed as the Monster in the Dark and that the other "Xykon" is actually Redcloak and "Redcloak" is actually Celia and "Celia" is actually Roy, and "Roy" is actually Belkar and "Belkar" is actually Vaarsuvius and "Vaarsuvius" is actually Haley and "Haley" is atually Elan and "Elan" is actually Durkon and "Durkon" is actually Nale and "Nale" is actually Sabine and "Sabine" is actually Z and "Z" is actually the Monster in the Dark and the "Monster in the Dark" is actually...

If you read the whole thing, I will give you 2d10 cookies

[snowblizz]

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that's not an excuse to start off on how Celia's strength stat somehow can be used to determine that Xykon will later be revealed as the Monster in the Dark and that the other "Xykon" is actually Redcloak and "Redcloak" is actually Celia and "Celia" is actually Roy, and "Roy" is actually Belkar and "Belkar" is actually Vaarsuvius and "Vaarsuvius" is actually Haley and "Haley" is atually Elan and "Elan" is actually Durkon and "Durkon" is actually Nale and "Nale" is actually Sabine and "Sabine" is actually Z and "Z" is actually the Monster in the Dark and the "Monster in the Dark" is actually...

If you read the whole thing, I will give you 2d10 cookies

Still not the craziest theory on the boards.

[wumpus]

Miko was brought up, and she's a paladin

A better reason would be the Deva (? extra-planar judging Roy outside Celestia) asking why Roy didn't become a paladin. Presumably she was looking at his character sheet, as well as his judged acts. As far as the paladins we've seen, only O-Chul has a low charisma stat (although he is drawn with more charisma than most other characters). Presumably the Deva wouldn't expect Roy to go the paladin route without charisma as a fairly high stat (although not necessarily as high as strength or constitution).

Of course, she might still say this even if his wisdom and intelligence are both higher than charisma (because there aren't such obvious classes for such stats), but it should be considered a data point.

[Forbiddenwar]

I'm totally on board with letting you have your house-ruled seduction-by-charisma rules, because it sounds like something a player in my games would get away with just because it's funny.



"Well, it's like Grappling, but with Charisma"

More seriously, I thought Strip 529 suggested that l Celis got the summon talisman from her mom. When she says "I thought you were mom."

[8BitNinja]

"Well, it's like Grappling, but with Charisma"

More seriously, I thought Strip 529 suggested that l Celis got the summon talisman from her mom. When she says "I thought you were mom."

Or it could be that Haley looks like her mom

or his her mom

from the future

(X-Files Music)

[luagha]

[QUOTE=Bulldog Psion;20294463]Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

This has been the setup for relationships with warriors and soldiers throughout history. They go out on campaign, and the wife doesn't know if they'll ever come home. It's even the setup for police in dangerous areas, with the wife never knowing if their husband will come home from patrol each night.

This is the story of Andromache in The Iliad, who every day went out to the walls with the other women to watch Hector (slayer of men, breaker of horses) put a hurting on the Greek Army. Yet knowing each night that as the toughest warrior on the Trojan side, he had a big target on his chest, and one day he wouldn't come home.

[8BitNinja]

[QUOTE=Bulldog Psion;20294463]Yes, now that you mention it, it is a pretty odd setup for their relationship. She's apparently content, for one thing, to go for months or years without knowing if he's lived, died, or been soul bound into a gem by a vicious lich, for that matter.

This has been the setup for relationships with warriors and soldiers throughout history. They go out on campaign, and the wife doesn't know if they'll ever come home. It's even the setup for police in dangerous areas, with the wife never knowing if their husband will come home from patrol each night.

This is the story of Andromache in The Iliad, who every day went out to the walls with the other women to watch Hector (slayer of men, breaker of horses) put a hurting on the Greek Army. Yet knowing each night that as the toughest warrior on the Trojan side, he had a big target on his chest, and one day he wouldn't come home.

Almost every soldier probably carries a picture of his wife/girlfriend in their uniform

[Vinyadan]

[QUOTE=luagha;20379666]

wife/girlfriend

For a moment I read weregirlfriend. I wonder what the stats on that would be. :smallcool:

[8BitNinja]

[QUOTE=8BitNinja;20380196]

For a moment I read weregirlfriend. I wonder what the stats on that would be. :smallcool:

Probably low strength, and constitution while in normal form, and then low charisma in wolf form

Maybe a scarily low wisdom and intelligence in normal form and scarily high wisdom and intelligence in wolf form

Something that really fluctuates, not necessarily this though

[Doug Lampert]

For a moment I read weregirlfriend. I wonder what the stats on that would be. :smallcool:

Well, were- is from "man" and "wolf" means wolf in werewolf. And this means a man who turns into a wolf.

So presumably a weregirlfriend is a man who turns into a girlfriend. Transexual? Crossdresser? Casually using wer- to include women as well as men and it just means a woman who turns into a girlfriend?

In any case, I suspect within the resolution of D&D ability scores and given the lack of sexual dimorphism of humans in game, that the correct stats are those of a normal human in both forms.

[8BitNinja]

Well, were- is from "man" and "wolf" means wolf in werewolf. And this means a man who turns into a wolf.

So presumably a weregirlfriend is a man who turns into a girlfriend. Transexual? Crossdresser? Casually using wer- to include women as well as men and it just means a woman who turns into a girlfriend?

In any case, I suspect within the resolution of D&D ability scores and given the lack of sexual dimorphism of humans in game, that the correct stats are those of a normal human in both forms.

I was thinking of a werewolf that became one when she became your girlfriend

[Doug Lampert]

I was thinking of a werewolf that became one when she became your girlfriend

That will be most people's first thought, because wer as a word for man isn't used in modern English, werewolf is the most prominent remnant, so we think of it as associated with wolf not with man.

I just figured it was amusing to point out that the actual meaning would be man-girlfriend just as werewolf means man-wolf.

[Sith_Happens]

In any case, I suspect within the resolution of D&D ability scores and given the lack of sexual dimorphism of humans in game, that the correct stats are those of a normal human in both forms.

I'd say it depends on the specific arrays of the weregirlfriend in question and the one that bit them; you'd basically be switching back and forth between the two (hybrid form is anyone's guess).:smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

For a moment I read weregirlfriend. I wonder what the stats on that would be. :smallcool:


Well, were- is from "man" and "wolf" means wolf in werewolf. And this means a man who turns into a wolf.

So presumably a weregirlfriend is a man who turns into a girlfriend. Transexual? Crossdresser? Casually using wer- to include women as well as men and it just means a woman who turns into a girlfriend?

In any case, I suspect within the resolution of D&D ability scores and given the lack of sexual dimorphism of humans in game, that the correct stats are those of a normal human in both forms.

I would assume that, in this case, "were" means "man" in the more general term of "man" (as in "man went to the moon), rather than the term of a male human being, because otherwise female werewolves would be called something different.

And assuming that is correct, a waregirlfriend would just be someone who is only your girlfriend at a full moon, and just a regular girl all the other times. I think I had one of those once.


Anyway, am I the only one who thinks about the song "Forgot about Dre" when I read the title of this thread?

[Reddish Mage]

I think this weregirlfriend conversation is taking us full-circle back into booty talisman territory.

[Emperordaniel]

I would assume that, in this case, "were" means "man" in the more general term of "man" (as in "man went to the moon), rather than the term of a male human being, because otherwise female werewolves would be called something different.

The way I heard it, "man" used to be solely gender-neutral, so they would have been called manwolves in general - except that none of the original stories mentioned female werewolves, which would be called wifwolves as opposed to the male wirwolves (wif- and wir- being the female and male prefixes).

Of course, almost everybody just calls them werewolves nowadays. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Yes. There was never a time when "wer" was gender-neutral; there was a time that the two human sexes were "werman" and "wifman." "Werewolves" reflects the fact that people at that time believed that turning into wolves was a strictly male type of evil magic.

[hroþila]

Indeed. The gender-neutral word was mann (is nan wifhades mann hire gelica, "there is not her like amongst any person [mann] of the female persuasion", to use a particularly wordy but hopefully precise translation). Compare wer with its Latin cognate vir vs homo (although the Old English cognate of the latter, guma, does seem to be exclusively male).

[8BitNinja]

Yes. There was never a time when "wer" was gender-neutral; there was a time that the two human sexes were "werman" and "wifman." "Werewolves" reflects the fact that people at that time believed that turning into wolves was a strictly male type of evil magic.

Crap, why do we guys have to be subject to the evil magics

but then again, we guys can't become witches

Middle Ages in a nutshell

[hroþila]

Crap, why do we guys have to be subject to the evil magics

but then again, we guys can't become witches

Middle Ages in a nutshell
Old English wicca totally referred to males. :smallcool:

[8BitNinja]

Old English wicca totally referred to males. :smallcool:

A male witch is a warlock, so a male cannot become a witch

[hroþila]

A male witch is a warlock, so a male cannot become a witch
But that's the modern convention, not the medieval one. In Old English, you could have a male wicca just as easily as a female wicce, and in Middle English wicch(e) was gender-neutral too.

[wumpus]

[QUOTE=Vinyadan;20388176]

Probably low strength, and constitution while in normal form, and then low charisma in wolf form

Maybe a scarily low wisdom and intelligence in normal form and scarily high wisdom and intelligence in wolf form

Something that really fluctuates, not necessarily this though

Nope. Captain Carrot strongly disagrees.

[littlebum2002]

A male witch is a warlock, so a male cannot become a witch

According to JK Rowling they're wizards.

[8BitNinja]

According to JK Rowling they're wizards.

According to Runescape, they're mages

[SaintRidley]

But that's the modern convention, not the medieval one. In Old English, you could have a male wicca just as easily as a female wicce, and in Middle English wicch(e) was gender-neutral too.

Glad someone else who does Old English got to this before I did.

[8BitNinja]

Ok, my joke didn't match linguistic semantics, so what does that matter?

[hroþila]

We have to defend the honour of the Middle Ages, you understand.

[Peelee]

We have to defend the honour of the Middle Ages, you understand.

Truly, you are as kings. :smallbiggrin:

[Vinyadan]

We have to defend the honour of the Middle Ages, you understand.

Pffff, just let them starve - it's not like they weren't used to it.

[8BitNinja]

We have to defend the honour of the Middle Ages, you understand.

I understand, after all, if I want to be a paladin, I have to defend the honor of the time I live in

But there's also my ninja role, it's not a multiclass, just another version of me, and I have to stay as a paladin for a while, I really pissed off the Diamyo of the 16 Bit Samurai Clan, a while back I tried to steal his katana (before I was lawful or knew that ninjas don't use katanas) and he's still looking

but Knights beat Samurai at everything

[Mx56]

In fairness, "warlock" as male equivalent to "witch" is correct in 16th century Scots, even if in middle English it was more of stand alone term for devil worshiper (lit - "Oath-Breaker" or "Traitor", as in one who has betrayed Judeo-Christian God in exchange for power granted by devils, I guess) - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=warlock